Chat: ENGL 2111 (World Literature I) Winter 2005

Chat 9: Virgil, The Aeneid

Virgil, The Aeneid

[00:00] --- Wed Mar 9 2005

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[19:24] Topic changed on #2111web by DWROB!DWROB@ Virgil's "Aeneid"

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[19:56] <ayin> Dr. R--is this where I need to be. I don't recognize any of the names.

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[19:58] <chi> hello

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[19:59] <pi> hey KENNY are you leading again this week?

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[20:00] <chi> yes, are you?

[20:00] <DWROB> He's not tonight

[20:00] <DWROB> I was up until three last night getting the server repaired

[20:00] <pi> haha why is that?

[20:00] <pi> i was up until about then too

[20:01] <kappa> That sucks

[20:01] <DWROB> I don't take that as well as when I was 20

[20:01] <pi> i was.. server as well

[20:01] <pi> sorry I'm such a loser

[20:01] <delta> my computer got a virus

[20:01] <DWROB> I will only have foolish and stupid things to say tonight

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[20:01] <chi> that sucks

[20:01] <pi> i will as well

[20:01] <DWROB> pi: server?

[20:01] <beta> so I assume its fixed?

[20:01] <DWROB> It's completely fixed

[20:01] <ayin> Dr. R--am I in the right place. I don't see any names I recognize.

[20:01] <DWROB> ayin: are you from the Tuesday class?

[20:02] <pi> mine is too

[20:02] <ayin> yes

[20:02] <DWROB> you are int he Wednesday class tonight!

[20:02] <chi> sounds great

[20:02] <DWROB> Which is good

[20:02] <DWROB> As some of you know, there was technical trouble last night.

[20:02] <yod> much cooler people on Wednesday night

[20:02] <DWROB> The chat was canceled

[20:02] <ayin> Sounds great.

[20:02] <DWROB> Its refugees are here tonight, some of them.

[20:02] <delta> My quizzes won't take on the inquisition?

[20:02] <chi> yup

[20:02] <samech> My name was tav but not tonight

[20:03] <DWROB> delta: they should take now

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[20:03] <DWROB> it ought to work -- I tested a student account earlier

[20:03] <delta> I tried to submit about ten min ago and nothing

[20:03] <pe> DWROB so do we need to do the discussion

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[20:03] <pi> question, if you passed one of the quizzes does that mean you got a 100? or just above an F

[20:03] <DWROB> Has somebody successfully posted quiz answers today?

[20:03] <beta> yes

[20:03] <mu> me

[20:03] <tsadik> i have

[20:03] <pe> if we are from Tuesday class

[20:03] <aleph> i have

[20:03] <omicron> yes

[20:03] <DWROB> I rest my case

[20:03] <vav> yes

[20:03] <pi> i posted them at like 6

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[20:03] <rho> I think I have

[20:04] <delta> My computer had a virus could this be affected?

[20:04] <lambda> yes

[20:04] <psi> i haven't

[20:04] <dalet> i did after a second attempt.

[20:04] <phi> yes

[20:04] <pi> yeah it took me a couple tries but then it went

[20:04] <DWROB> If you are running Internet Explorer you may have a poisoned cache, so flush the cache, restart the browser, and most importantly, change to Firefox

[20:04] <epsilon> yes

[20:04] <pi> it pissed me off cause the first time it erased all my answers

[20:04] <DWROB> Sorry about that

[20:04] <dalet> a few weeks ago my computer was flooded w/Spycams

[20:04] <vav> what is Firefox?

[20:04] <beta> Mozilla

[20:04] <he> better

[20:04] <eta> ha!

[20:04] <DWROB> I had to insert the backup system disk to have any server at all last night

[20:04] <iota> i have

[20:05] <mu> Netscape browser

[20:05] <chi> Mozilla

[20:05] <beta> form of Netscape

[20:05] <DWROB> Netscape is better than IE

[20:05] <mu> i agree

[20:05] <DWROB> Mozilla is better yet, and Firefox is the best going

[20:05] <phi> very wrong

[20:05] <epsilon> so if we couldn't get access to the Knowledge survey in the beginning, and didn't do it we fail the class

[20:05] <kappa> I agree, IE is crap

[20:05] <DWROB> An IE partisan? Bah!

[20:05] <iota> so if we passed does that mean we got an a

[20:05] <iota> A

[20:05] <phi> IE supports my website

[20:05] <phi> so its awesome

[20:05] <psi> ie is too problematic

[20:05] <epsilon> i just caught that on the syllabus

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[20:06] <DWROB> Ah -- that's a coding problem, then!

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[20:06] <mu> yes i agree recode it

[20:06] <eta> hmmm

[20:06] <DWROB> Anyway, yes, we are having a chat tonight

[20:06] <pi> yes i had some trouble decoding earlier

[20:06] <pi> wait what are we talking about

[20:06] <ayin> Your server problems must have happened yesterday afternoon. I posted to the forum and the quiz yesterday around 11:00 am. No problems.

[20:06] <phi> booo

[20:06] Action: DWROB points at topic

[20:06] <yod> knowledge survey is working or not?

[20:06] <DWROB> Virgil's "Aeneid"

[20:07] <chi> what is?

[20:07] <DWROB> KS is working, buit you won't be using it until the end

[20:07] <DWROB> Are we ready?

[20:07] <pi> knowledge survey? we don't need to do that now do we?

[20:07] <mu> yes

[20:07] <beta> yes

[20:07] <psi> ooh

[20:07] <phi> yes

[20:07] <ayin> yes

[20:07] <nun> Aeneid: Kind of like the Odyssey.

[20:07] <DWROB> What's different about This epic?

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[20:07] <DWROB> kind of?

[20:07] <omicron> he didn't win a war

[20:07] <beta> hes not in it for himself

[20:07] <phi> he is doing it for his duty

[20:07] <mu> points to the future

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[20:07] <aleph> different point of view

[20:07] <pi> Aeneas was more like a real man then the other heroes

[20:07] <ayin> more of a human side to the picture..more emotion

[20:07] <gamma> the way it is told

[20:08] <vav> he does everything for the future

[20:08] <DWROB> pi: a real man? meaning what?

[20:08] <pi> whit: i agree

[20:08] <dalet> A was not victorious and escaping

[20:08] <sigma> A is not concerned about himself, as O and G are

[20:08] <delta> pride didn't drive him

[20:08] <DWROB> sigma: good

[20:08] <pi> he had more realistic problems to deal with

[20:08] <chi> yes

[20:08] <chi> it was better

[20:08] <tau> hubris'

[20:08] <rho> he is doing for others not himself

[20:08] <psi> he is concerned for other people

[20:08] <epsilon> he's in it for the welfare of everyone else not himself

[20:08] <dalet> Aeneas many times had no idea gods were involved

[20:08] <pi> he had to make sacrifice by choice

[20:08] <sigma> He is more concerned about his sons

[20:08] <chi> it has less to do with personal wants and more to do with his destiny

[20:08] <epsilon> unlike o and g

[20:08] <gamma> he is on his journey for a greater good

[20:08] <mu> he is a modern day hero

[20:08] <beta> he's doing it for his future sons

[20:08] <eta> his people ... that's who he cared about.. seeking refuge to Italy

[20:08] <DWROB> mu: why "modern day"?

[20:08] <he> For the good of his people

[20:09] <iota> A has a better sense of duty for his fellow Romans, he wants to be a good leader and do good for the people

[20:09] <gamma> it has more contemporary themes

[20:09] <mu> this is how we look at a hero

[20:09] <lambda> perspective

[20:09] <mu> not one who just take journeys

[20:09] <pi> the rest of the guys just were searching for self fulfilling things while Aeneas was interested in the future of his people above his own joy

[20:09] <upsilon> Aeneas does things to benefit his family more than just himself

[20:09] <mu> but the one who is not in it for themselves

[20:09] <beta> he doesn't have the flaw of foolish pride like the O and G

[20:09] <iota> O and G just wanted to make themselves happy

[20:09] <DWROB> Modern? contemporary? what does this mean when it's 2000 years old?

[20:09] <psi> His family means more than himself in Aeneas eyes

[20:09] <DWROB> beta: true

[20:09] <chi> he had more realistic problems

[20:09] <kappa> Aeneas ends his life with misery but can be satisfied knowing the future would be ok

[20:09] <dalet> A knew he had a purpose to fulfill

[20:09] <pi> the author was probably more down to earth then Homer

[20:09] <DWROB> chi: realistic == ?

[20:09] <delta> story relates more to modern times

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[20:10] <gamma> people exhibit the same emotions

[20:10] <eta> no way

[20:10] <epsilon> this is how we today view hero's unselfish

[20:10] <chi> i liked Dido, a strong and independent woman

[20:10] <epsilon> unselfish

[20:10] <DWROB> I keep hearing modern -- what are you saying about the Romans, then?

[20:10] <ayin> He understands fate and never questions it regardless of what happens.

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[20:10] <psi> the author includes more emotions than homer did

[20:10] <beta> who killed herself

[20:10] <iota> its not modern or contemporary it is more about being a just ruler

[20:10] <pi> more advanced on a thinking level

[20:10] <DWROB> chi: she is the center weight of the poem, a great character

[20:10] <he> modern society

[20:10] <tau> more advanced

[20:10] <DWROB> psi: yes!

[20:10] <dalet> Dido killed herself over a man

[20:10] <mu> an advanced society

[20:10] <rho> they were modern in their ways

[20:10] <chi> like having to choose duty over a romantic thing

[20:10] <eta> but the Romans are ancient.. not modern

[20:10] <nun> The Romans where much more advanced than their predecessors.

[20:10] <lambda> advanced culture for the time

[20:10] <delta> advanced'

[20:10] <DWROB> eta: maybe

[20:11] <gamma> people still show the same emotions

[20:11] <rho> their science and technology was more advance

[20:11] <pi> they were ancient to us but there are obvious signs of advancement in the Roman people over the Trojans and Greeks and so on

[20:11] <DWROB> The question is, what do we have in common with the Romans that they seem so modern in out;look?

[20:11] <dalet> advance depends on who eyes are interpreting

[20:11] <mu> we still use some of their thoughts and practices today

[20:11] <KENNY> The epic is written for leaders of a nation

[20:11] <KENNY> Unlike the O and G

[20:11] <lambda> they were the first "modern" people

[20:11] <chi> she killed herself but before she was very strong and independent

[20:11] <beta> he didn't rely on the gods from the beginning like the O and G

[20:11] <phi> people do things for us as representatives so that all may prosper from it

[20:12] <lambda> in terms of science and thinking

[20:12] <chi> you can't help who you fall in love with

[20:12] <chi> democracy

[20:12] <pi> this tail is more inspirational to the average Joe

[20:12] <DWROB> mu: yes, because much of Roman civilization was captured and assimilated by the christian tradition and later reinforced by Renaissance classical learning.

[20:12] <psi> The gods were important to him, so that he did not depend on them, just acted for them

[20:12] <ayin> They were interested in the future and developing a homeland ... very important to have a basis such as a homeland to draw from.

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[20:12] <rho> development of large society ideas

[20:12] <chi> intelligence

[20:12] <KENNY> The Roman Empire is thought to be the beginning of Western Societies.

[20:12] <DWROB> chi: who's intelligent??

[20:12] <KENNY> Modern West

[20:12] <eta> he obeyed his gods.. even when it meant to leave Dido ...

[20:12] <psi> many things are based on roman culture today

[20:12] <dalet> but, who did the Romans copy?

[20:12] <delta> they were a team and more leading

[20:12] <DWROB> xxxx: real ones as opposed to idealized ones

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[20:12] <gamma> Their advancement led to dominant empire

[20:12] <tau> xxxx ... why?

[20:13] <epsilon> concern for the future and how to make it better

[20:13] <chi> us and the Romans

[20:13] <DWROB> dalet: they copied the Greeks, early late and often

[20:13] <pi> probably because the Roman empire is the setting for the beginning of Christianity so we have more connections to it as a society

[20:13] <tau> oh ok

[20:13] <dalet> that's what i thought, not so great, but copiers

[20:13] <eta> was it?

[20:13] <DWROB> What are the principal values we saw the Greeks having?

[20:13] <psi> yea Christianity is an important factor

[20:13] <DWROB> And what are the principal Roman values?

[20:13] <phi> do they copy the Greeks bc the Greeks are amazing, or bc they want to make the stories better

[20:13] <phi> ?

[20:13] <aleph> arrogance, pride

[20:13] <gamma> pride and arrogance

[20:13] <tau> pride

[20:13] <psi> service to their gods

[20:13] <bet> obey the gods a please them

[20:13] <yod9> pride

[20:14] <delta> polytheism-Greeks

[20:14] <yod9> tough

[20:14] <eta> yes.. pride

[20:14] <he> Greeks were prideful and warlike

[20:14] <gimmel> pride

[20:14] <pi> don’t piss off the gods was the basic rule they lived by

[20:14] <kappa> Pride was definitely an attribute

[20:14] <phi> pride

[20:14] <delta> pride

[20:14] <iota> courage

[20:14] <lambda> pride

[20:14] <DWROB> phi: the Greeks were original, the Romans good copiers and institution-builders

[20:14] <beta> definitely arrogance

[20:14] <sigma> pride

[20:14] <samech> Intellect

[20:14] <chi> there are several parallels in our thought processes

[20:14] <chi> science?

[20:14] <lambda> aggressive

[20:14] <DWROB> pi: yes

[20:14] <he> Greeks seemed greedy

[20:14] <epsilon> pride

[20:14] <KENNY> There is a nation following one spiritual path

[20:14] <iota> pride

[20:14] <chi> dominance

[20:14] <DWROB> beta: arrogance is not a "value" -- the opposite rather

[20:14] <beta> ok

[20:14] <DWROB> he: in practice, true enough

[20:15] <bet> respect hospitality

[20:15] <DWROB> xxxx: which nation?

[20:15] <dalet> The Romans

[20:15] <psi> gods played a large part in each of the societies

[20:15] <epsilon> Romans

[20:15] <DWROB> Remember too that the Greeks are a fragmented, fairly primitive social structure. compare than to the Romans

[20:15] <phi> Romans

[20:15] <mu> warriors

[20:16] <beta> Romans = structured state

[20:16] <samech> man is just the pawn for the Gods in their chess game

[20:16] <he> There weren't very close

[20:16] <pi> the Greeks lived in like city state type rule while the Romans had an empire and all that jazz

[20:16] <sigma> The Romans were not split up by city-states

[20:16] <yod9> Romans built a vast empire. they were much more advanced

[20:16] <KENNY> I guess America, Britain, France, Italy

[20:16] <DWROB> Based on this poem, what do the Romans consider to be important?

[20:16] <nun> Copiers..maybe a little. The Roman used their ideas, but then built on those ideas and made them better

[20:16] <nun> but what do i know

[20:16] <psi> the Romans had more territory so therefore picked up different pieces of culture and imported them

[20:16] <pi> heritage

[20:16] <KENNY> Where some of our European ancestors would have come from

[20:16] <ayin> religious principle

[20:16] <DWROB> nun: true

[20:16] <bet> follow your destiny

[20:16] <delta> leadership

[20:16] <phi> better future

[20:16] <kappa> The future

[20:16] <chi> the Romans were more organized and had a stronger government

[20:16] <epsilon> Romans are more organized than the Greeks, more put together

[20:16] <rho> the Romans are refined compared to the Greeks

[20:16] <lambda> the Romans were a more unified empire

[20:16] <DWROB> delta: loyalty is an important value for the Romans

[20:16] <dalet> our government

[20:16] <he> The survival of their people

[20:16] <DWROB> AND DUTY

[20:16] <chi> family, destiny, the future

[20:16] <iota> somewhat alike however, Romans seem to be more organized

[20:16] <KENNY> Duty to your people

[20:16] <eta> ahhh duty!

[20:17] <DWROB> And piety

[20:17] <kappa> Duty did seem very important

[20:17] <pi> that’s an eastern idea right? dharma

[20:17] <ayin> Loyalty was one of the highest.

[20:17] <DWROB> Duty as opposed to self-indulgence

[20:17] <sigma> securing your family

[20:17] <psi> the Romans had more of a social life

[20:17] <gamma> serving the greater purpose

[20:17] <beta> duty is what A was all about

[20:17] <bet> fulfill responsibilities

[20:17] <DWROB> psi: More than GSU students on a Thursday night?

[20:17] <dalet> so he was not as selfish as Odysseus as stated earlier

[20:17] <DWROB> (just kidding)

[20:17] <pi> hahaha

[20:18] <chi> they had a lot of respect for their elders

[20:18] <DWROB> dalet: exactly, he is an anti-Odysseus

[20:18] <pi> stay on topic Doc

[20:18] <DWROB> OK

[20:18] Action: DWROB slaps himself with a large trout

[20:18] <kappa> Odysseus now seems quite selfish

[20:18] <beta> yeah, they were almost polar opposites

[20:18] <dalet> that's what Virgil was trying to convey!

[20:18] <pi> hahahaha

[20:18] <mu> lol

[20:18] <tau> ha-random

[20:18] <delta> ha

[20:18] <kappa> nice

[20:18] <vav> Duty comes up a lot. haha

[20:18] <chi> hahah

[20:18] <iota> he is

[20:18] <dalet> LOL!! we got in trouble for that last week!

[20:18] <eta> ok

[20:18] <upsilon> ha ha

[20:18] <phi> right

[20:18] <psi> trout nice touch

[20:19] <ayin> Everything was for country. Even when his wife died, he seemed to understand.

[20:19] <DWROB> That's the point that Virgil is making -- the difference at least as much as the heroic similarity

[20:19] <epsilon> umm ok

[20:19] <sigma> ha ha ha

[20:19] <gamma> Aeneas had the characteristics of o terrific leader

[20:19] <gamma> he was not blinded by pride

[20:19] <iota> woo hoo

[20:19] <DWROB> What are those characteristics?

[20:19] <tau> i agree

[20:19] <DWROB> Leadership is an interesting question at the moment

[20:19] <mu> loyalty to his duty

[20:19] <dalet> good boyfriend.

[20:19] <DWROB> in a war

[20:19] <beta> courage

[20:19] <DWROB> Our war, now

[20:19] <phi> he ditches Dido so he can go to war, couldn’t he take her with him?

[20:19] <kappa> looking to the future, doing your duty

[20:19] <DWROB> give me more ...

[20:19] <rho> sacrifice for others

[20:19] <pi> the biggest thing is the element of self sacrifice

[20:20] <iota> loyalty

[20:20] <eta> so that’s obey the gods ... carry on with his objective/mission

[20:20] <chi> I wish there had been more about Dido's story

[20:20] <iota> courage

[20:20] <mu> looked toward the future

[20:20] <dalet> why would she want to go to war? i wouldn't

[20:20] <epsilon> loyalty, duty

[20:20] <DWROB> dalet: no, worst boyfriend in all of history!!!

[20:20] <rho> live for tomorrow instead of today

[20:20] <chi> knew what he was supposed to do and followed through with it

[20:20] <bet> he gives up what is important to him to sacrifice for the future

[20:20] <lambda> he left dido t for his people

[20:20] <he> How is that loyal

[20:20] <pi> yeah why couldn’t he take her with him?

[20:20] <chi> very loyal

[20:20] <dalet> oops

[20:20] <DWROB> I s he a good fighter?

[20:20] <eta> would you take your wife to war with you?????

[20:20] <ayin> Everything was based on fate and loyalty.

[20:20] <gamma> yes

[20:20] <beta> i don't think he is the worst boyfriend ever

[20:20] <phi> well she killed herself bc he left her

[20:20] <mu> the gods told him that it was not his fate to be with her

[20:20] <kappa> He seems to be a good fighter

[20:20] <KENNY> Ironically, his imperfection makes him a better leader.

[20:20] <he> b/c he is loyal to the gods before all

[20:20] <mu> that’s why he left

[20:20] <bet> yes

[20:20] <pi> would you rather go to war? or go crazy and kill yourself

[20:20] <phi> like bush

[20:20] <epsilon> caring

[20:20] <ayin> Yes, and a smart one.

[20:20] <eta> yes that’s probably a better answer

[20:21] <beta> or your young son?

[20:21] <delta> he is very loyal to his mission

[20:21] <iota> to obey the gods and be loyal to his fellow Romans

[20:21] <DWROB> beta: OK, perhaps you have known worse, I admit

[20:21] <psi> he had all of the makings of a good leader

[20:21] <KENNY> E.G. being sidetracked with Dido and their problems together.

[20:21] <epsilon> concerned with everyone else's well-being

[20:21] <epsilon> yes and intelligent

[20:21] <dalet> kill myself over a man? how about i find another?

[20:21] <DWROB> But he does Mary her, then claims he didn't, then sneaks away in the night,m and then asks her (once she's dead) why she is so upset.

[20:21] <beta> yeah i have

[20:21] <chi> he could have found a way to be with her and fulfill his destiny, that would have been a great leader

[20:21] <bet> another man

[20:21] <psi> maybe he was ashamed about how others saw him

[20:21] <samech> leading your men to death for the grater good ... or God

[20:22] <bet> clueless like Jason

[20:22] <beta> but he seemed genuine when they met in the underworld

[20:22] <gamma> his duty was more important and he understood that

[20:22] <dalet> typical man

[20:22] <vav> not very loyal was he

[20:22] <phi> that L girl must have been hotter

[20:22] <delta> he let their relationship get in the way of his mission

[20:22] <dalet> typical modern man

[20:22] <upsilon> I thought that the only reason she THOUGHT they got married was because the slept together

[20:22] <DWROB> bet: but Jason is a schmuck, We are supposed to admire Aeneas

[20:22] <chi> MEN!

[20:22] <mu> she wouldn’t have understood

[20:22] <beta> loyal to the gods, but not her

[20:22] <ayin> I thought that the Fields of Mourning was for the suicides ...

[20:22] <sigma> typical male

[20:22] <DWROB> beta: yes

[20:22] <DWROB> ayin: yes

[20:22] <bet> ow yeah, but he is naive in this situation

[20:22] <omicron> is that better?

[20:22] <ayin> Why was her first husband there? I thought he was murdered?

[20:22] <gamma> he showed emotion that Odysseus lacked

[20:22] <mu> god always should come before the woman

[20:22] <omicron> to be loyal to the gods

[20:22] <pi> but to them being loyal to the gods was more important then being loyal to a woman

[20:22] <eta> yes ... he let a woman delay his objective for a while.. just like Odysseus and Kirke

[20:22] <DWROB> ayin:hmmm -- I don't know

[20:23] <dalet> she kills herself, then A is like, why'd ya do that?

[20:23] <psi> be believed women were secondary to god

[20:23] <epsilon> yes i agree

[20:23] <DWROB> pi: that certainly is true

[20:23] <pi> if any of you are religious then you probably agree that loyalty to God is first before any other human

[20:23] <dalet> i didn't understand the part about her 1st husband in the underworld

[20:23] <chi> it was her punishment to see him there

[20:23] <DWROB> He can't stay with Dido because he has work to do -- founding the Roman nation

[20:23] <beta> its supposed to be that way

[20:23] <eta> and I'm sure that’s how they viewed it back then too

[20:23] <dalet> was D with him?

[20:23] <chi> nah

[20:23] <delta> I agree

[20:23] <kappa> He has a calling

[20:23] <mu> more important work

[20:23] <omicron> it was basically like a one night stand

[20:23] <psi> well even if those times God was the main reason for living

[20:24] <DWROB> She is a queen, and he would become prince consort of Carthage, which is not the plan at all.

[20:24] <mu> he sacrificed

[20:24] <theta> pretty good move if you asked me ...

[20:24] <delta> he felt bad because he got sidetracked

[20:24] <he> b/c of her brother

[20:24] <bet> in this case he was also loyal to the gods that set his future

[20:24] <psi> yea he played his cards well

[20:24] <phi> it couldn’t be the Carthage/roman empire?

[20:24] <kappa> Sucks for her but he has something more important for the bigger picture

[20:24] <DWROB> bet: he pious,

[20:24] <sigma> even if he had a calling, it doesn’t give him the right to deny Dido

[20:24] <dalet> not her brother, a God disguised as her brother

[20:24] <chi> she was a strong leader too, she could easily have helped found Rome

[20:24] <theta> i don't think he truly felt "bad". He saw his destiny and set off to fulfill it ... very noble

[20:24] <ayin> It was time to move on.

[20:24] <beta> yeah he got sidetracked alright!

[20:24] <DWROB> but played his cards well? He is something of a tragic figure, don't you think?

[20:24] <sigma> he didn't just leave her, he denied her

[20:24] <dalet> I think it was Cupid

[20:24] <tau> it was his destiny

[20:24] <DWROB> He gives up his personal happiness for the sake of Rome

[20:24] <beta> no, it was his mother

[20:24] <epsilon> that makes her kinda self-fish doesn’t it? her wanting him to stay instead of finding the Roman nation

[20:24] <psi> he believed that she was not her destiny

[20:25] <he> He had to fulfill is duty to the gods before anyone else

[20:25] <delta> a tragedy

[20:25] <he> wife or anyone

[20:25] <ayin> More heroic than tragic.

[20:25] <DWROB> epsilon: she is selfish, certainly. But do you really admire Aeneas?

[20:25] <theta> "you can live for yourself today, or you can help build tomorrow for everyone"

[20:25] <DWROB> Do you like Aeneas?

[20:25] <yod9> he stuck to what he believed for sure

[20:25] <bet> i do

[20:25] <eta> Mercury himself had to remind him of what he needed to be doing

[20:25] <pi> i do

[20:25] <theta> he simply chose to build tomorrow

[20:25] <psi> i do

[20:25] <he> I like Venus

[20:25] <rho> yes I do

[20:25] <beta> admire him for being dutiful, yes

[20:25] <aleph> you don't hate him when he leaves Dido

[20:25] <omicron> yeah

[20:25] <kappa> Aeneas is a good person to most

[20:25] <lambda> he had to go

[20:25] <DWROB> Is he more admirable than Odysseus?

[20:25] <psi> certainly

[20:25] <ayin> I like him for completing the job she knew he had to do.

[20:25] <pi> but I've liked em all except Jason

[20:25] <gamma> definitely

[20:25] <theta> yes

[20:25] <beta> yes

[20:25] <aleph> more normal

[20:25] <tau> that yes!

[20:25] <eta> yes

[20:25] <rho> for being noble

[20:25] <ayin> I think so.

[20:25] <vav> ayes

[20:25] <kappa> Possibly

[20:25] <dalet> most definitely

[20:25] <omicron> i don’t think you can compare the two

[20:26] <samech> no

[20:26] <yod9> yes

[20:26] <bet> maybe not as much of a family man

[20:26] <delta> yes but I believe I would be more like Odysseus

[20:26] <omicron> their values are too different

[20:26] <DWROB> Well, he's not the brightest bulb in the marquee, you know

[20:26] <he> Lot more smarts than Jason'

[20:26] <nun> I liked him because he left and did what he was supposed to do ...

[20:26] <kappa> While O was somewhat selfish he had good reason also

[20:26] <chi> if he was so great, he wouldn't have slept with her then left

[20:26] <lambda> in some ways

[20:26] <DWROB> Odysseus is brilliant

[20:26] <aleph> he doesn't seem to display a lot of price

[20:26] <dalet> but Aeneas never left his 1st family, he was very loyal to his 1st wife

[20:26] <aleph> pride

[20:26] <DWROB> Aeneas is sort of thick

[20:26] <ayin> I think he is more "human"..more emotional.

[20:26] <pi> O wanted to get home but he still got sidetracked

[20:26] <chi> I like O because he stayed with his wife

[20:26] <psi> its not always about the smartest people, its about how people react to certain situations

[20:26] <pi> because of lust

[20:26] <eta> Odysseus was more about pleasing himself ... he was trying to get home to his wife and son, yet he finds lovers along the way and such

[20:26] <gamma> she could have given up what she had and left with him

[20:26] <delta> workaholic maybe

[20:26] <DWROB> psi: good point, Virgil's point

[20:27] <pi> O got seduced by women and it kept him from getting home

[20:27] <epsilon> yes

[20:27] <phi> the avg hero is not a smart person

[20:27] <DWROB> gamma: but the real danger is not her as a person -- it is that A will give in to pleasure and be distracted from his duty

[20:27] <eta> as did Aeneas

[20:27] <DWROB> So she has to go

[20:27] <iota> exactly

[20:27] <nun> But, i think Odysseus was much smarter than Aeneas

[20:27] <sigma> Aeneas was loyal to his sons, but not his first wife (because of Dido).

[20:27] <gamma> ok

[20:27] <bet> yep

[20:27] <chi> you cant say no to a goddess

[20:27] <DWROB> pi Good!

[20:27] <delta> I agree

[20:27] <dalet> there was definitely a message in that

[20:27] <kappa> Heroes are often just in the right place at the right time and act in the right way, by dumb luck

[20:27] <samech> A's slow like me

[20:28] <nun> ha

[20:28] <DWROB> gamma: he took no vow of chastity (unlike Dido)

[20:28] <rho> O might be smarter but everything was about him.

[20:28] <psi> not by dumb luck just by acting on their experiences

[20:28] <dalet> don’t get caught up in unproductive pleasures and stay focused

[20:28] <DWROB> samech: don't sell yourself short

[20:28] <bet> but why was he going to marry L later

[20:28] <samech> O is quiet and to the point.

[20:28] <DWROB> I find A to be a bit of an annoying Boy Scout

[20:28] <DWROB> Goody goody

[20:28] <samech> Quick

[20:28] <beta> focused is a good word - A was and O wasn't really

[20:28] <bet> dork

[20:28] <DWROB> A hard sell as an epic hero

[20:29] <DWROB> I think Virgil knows this.

[20:29] <bet> but loyal

[20:29] <sigma> me too

[20:29] <psi> A was more of a big picture person than O

[20:29] <kappa> Loyal is a great thing

[20:29] <pi> but he did more than O

[20:29] <DWROB> He has his virtues, but he is kind of boring

[20:29] <bet> he is admirable

[20:29] <DWROB> O is never boring

[20:29] <iota> they are both smart but just in different ways, and they have different intentions

[20:29] <dalet> that's why Virgil made this hero to contrast Ody

[20:29] <ayin> He had to make him different from O. That was one way.

[20:29] <he> Well it seems a lot of the hardships aside from losing Troy was left out of what we read

[20:29] <pi> the point of the odyssey was just that he got home

[20:29] <delta> he means for it to be this way

[20:29] <DWROB> Which kind of hero is more attractive to women ... no, never mind

[20:29] <dalet> I'm sure V was trying to make a point

[20:29] <epsilon> so therefor he had nothing to feel bad about

[20:29] <psi> Virgil believed there was more in life than just one man

[20:29] <epsilon> he saw more of how the future would be effected rather than just his life

[20:29] <nun> i would agree, i liked Odysseus' adventures much more than Aeneas'

[20:29] <tau> yeah ... lets not go into that topic

[20:30] <beta> yeah lets avoid that dr rob

[20:30] <dalet> Odysseus is more attractive to shallow women.

[20:30] <lambda> O is out for himself, while A is al about his people

[20:30] <DWROB> Look at it this way ...

[20:30] <phi> A proves that its not all about the muscle and problem solving, as long as you get the job done

[20:30] <dalet> women who love a challenge

[20:30] <he> b/c A didn't really have adventures

[20:30] <pi> boring or not A did a lot more than O in the long run and maybe it had to do with the fact that he was a goody goody and not a prideful but brilliant warrior

[20:30] <vav> Odysseus

[20:30] <he> not like O

[20:30] <kappa> O was more enjoyable because of the bizarre adventures

[20:30] <DWROB> Virgil has an official point to make: the Roman state is virtuous, was founded by virtuous men at the God's instructions.

[20:30] pe (~pe@ left irc: Ping timeout

[20:30] <iota> no no

[20:30] <DWROB> The current regime is legitimate, rah rah rah

[20:30] <sigma> neither, they both ditched their women

[20:30] <psi> O had more entertainment value

[20:30] <he> A's adventures were too realistic not as enjoyable to read you know

[20:30] <chi> O is more attractive to women who like romance, while A is more attractive to women who hate procrastination

[20:30] <pi> but they both had multiple women

[20:30] <DWROB> That's the official message -- remember, he's writing this for the emperor

[20:31] <psi> but O went back to his woman at the end

[20:31] <ayin> Virgil was sure trying to convince everyone that it was!

[20:31] <pi> so they got to ditch somebody

[20:31] <DWROB> But he also has a story to tell

[20:31] <tau> i would choose O

[20:31] <bet> propaganda?

[20:31] <dalet> so this whole epic was for loyalty to country?

[20:31] <delta> politics and propaganda

[20:31] <DWROB> How do you take a perfectly virtuous hero and make him interesting?

[20:31] <gamma> exactly

[20:31] <beta> and the gods

[20:31] <chi> both are attractive because they are powerful

[20:31] <psi> you cant

[20:31] <DWROB> Interesting and not virtuously dull?

[20:31] <theta> give him flaws

[20:31] <he> You can’t really

[20:31] <bet> more adventure flaw

[20:31] <rho> add to his story

[20:31] <pi> make him bang a lot of women

[20:31] <DWROB> theta: yes -- good

[20:31] <chi> you cant

[20:31] <kappa> It does seem like quite a difficult task

[20:31] <tau> reading it, i pictured o more physically attractive

[20:31] <DWROB> his flaw, unlike O, is not pride or arrogance

[20:31] <rho> as Hollywood would

[20:31] <psi> he cant because there is not such thing as perfection

[20:31] <eta> yes adventure ... make a good folk tale out of him

[20:31] <ayin> Through a few sparks in there

[20:31] <he> just make it up

[20:32] <epsilon> that’s hard

[20:32] <he> Dramatization

[20:32] <chi> put other less virtuous characters with him

[20:32] <delta> unexpected ending with flaws

[20:32] <gamma> it makes his flaws seem normal

[20:32] <DWROB> tau: yes, in a very buff kind of way, but still dull!

[20:32] <DWROB> though Dido falls for him

[20:32] <chi> his flaw is his destiny

[20:32] <he> You can't have a flawless tragic hero

[20:32] <chi> or duty

[20:32] <DWROB> He *is* Aphrodite's son, after all

[20:32] <beta> i agree with hall - put other unvirtuous people in there

[20:32] <ayin> The God's helped in the Dido situation.

[20:32] <gamma> but Virgil makes them seem excused

[20:32] <bet> apple fell far from the tree

[20:32] <delta> He was portrayed to be handsome right

[20:32] <iota> yer

[20:32] <iota> his flaw may be listening too much to the gods

[20:33] <pi> make them conquer insanely unrealistic situations

[20:33] <DWROB> So what's his flaw? What makes him sympathetic?

[20:33] <beta> no such thing

[20:33] <he> They don't listen to anyone else

[20:33] <he> but the gods

[20:33] <theta> he has a lot of weight on his shoulders

[20:33] <psi> he tends to be more interested in the heavens then on earth

[20:33] <DWROB> What makes him human?

[20:33] <theta> and knows what he needs to do

[20:33] <rho> not enough individualism in him

[20:33] <psi> he makes mistakes

[20:33] <bet> he is ruined by his obedience

[20:33] <gamma> they lost the war

[20:33] <DWROB> psi: yes, boring boring

[20:33] <aleph> he isn't driven

[20:33] <sigma> slow

[20:33] <dalet> he is too sensitive

[20:33] <delta> is there a such thing as too much loyalty

[20:33] <phi> he lets dumb things get in his way

[20:33] <ayin> emotions

[20:33] <chi> that he has no life

[20:33] <epsilon> less intelligence

[20:33] <sigma> he doesn't live in the here and now

[20:33] <DWROB> delta: not officially, but in practice, we feel that

[20:33] <kappa> slow

[20:33] <epsilon> hes not perfect

[20:33] <lambda> he is too loyal

[20:34] <DWROB> epsilon: no, he *is* perfect, finally

[20:34] <nun> the fact that he gets himself in trouble with the woman makes him human.

[20:34] <pi> maybe it all comes down to Virgil having a different writing style then Homer

[20:34] <DWROB> he is perfect at the expense of his humanness

[20:34] <he> I don't think he was to loyal

[20:34] <chi> emotions

[20:34] <sigma> yes does

[20:34] <psi> perfection is a state of mind that one person thinks upon himself

[20:34] <DWROB> he has no pleasure or love in his life -- he sacrifices it

[20:34] <pi> i like that moral

[20:34] <he> in there society you were supposed to be loyal to the Gods first and foremost

[20:34] <bet> boring

[20:34] <beta> complete unhappiness

[20:34] <dalet> but, is that a good thing always

[20:34] <eta> for his DUTY

[20:34] <delta> right but O had a family to go back to

[20:34] <DWROB> it's good for Rome, bad for A.

[20:34] <he> no but that is how there society was

[20:34] <epsilon> he doesn’t care for himself just other

[20:35] <kappa> He is too selfless

[20:35] <DWROB> delta: true

[20:35] <bet> and dido

[20:35] <DWROB> and Dido, OK ...

[20:35] <chi> he lives in the then and there

[20:35] <chi> me too

[20:35] <chi> not complete

[20:35] <psi> A wouldn’t care if it was bad for him, just because it helped Rome

[20:35] <dalet> i feel like O, must take care of self

[20:35] <sigma> A needed to find a balance, that was a flaw of his

[20:35] <theta> so ... is he a "Jesus"-type figure?

[20:35] <DWROB> Why is Dido the most interesting character and episode in a poem that' supposed to be about the founding of Rome???

[20:35] <he> is that bad to only care for the others around you

[20:35] <psi> He is the main protagonist

[20:35] <bet> we need people more focused on the future

[20:35] <vav> her temper

[20:35] <he> She adds the culture

[20:35] <DWROB> Why does Virgil give so much space to Dido?

[20:36] <bet> she was dramatic

[20:36] <ayin> More dynamic

[20:36] <gamma> her reaction to a's leaving

[20:36] <delta> she distracted him from his loyalty

[20:36] <vav> drama

[20:36] <dalet> u felt her emotions

[20:36] <aleph> she shows the most change

[20:36] <he> So it would be more interesting

[20:36] <psi> the reactions if D was closer

[20:36] <ayin> She draws interest.

[20:36] <yod9> yeah drama queen

[20:36] <DWROB> She's just some crazy lady who kills herself when she's jilted, right?

[20:36] <pi> that’s true maybe the founding figure of Rome should have been a little bit more appealing all around like O

[20:36] <kappa> She caused a disturbance for him.

[20:36] <tau> huh good question ... .because a love story is always interesting

[20:36] <sigma> dido's story is very tragic

[20:36] <dalet> right

[20:36] <nun> she was part of Aeneas' development maybe?

[20:36] <ayin> Makes for good reading.

[20:36] <psi> yes but A is in love with her

[20:36] <lambda> she represents temptation

[20:36] <theta> no, she's an object that Aeneas chose to give up in pursuit of a better future

[20:36] <DWROB> sigma: I agree. I want to understand why

[20:36] <he> But she could have just wondered off never to be heard from again

[20:36] <epsilon> for more drama, to make it interesting

[20:36] <psi> whether he will admit it

[20:36] <upsilon> its kind of emotional

[20:36] <bet> she opposed to a was irrational

[20:36] <samech> She had the power at one time.

[20:36] <he> instead she is a very opposing chara.

[20:36] <theta> a very special object ... love is

[20:36] <pi> Love is one of the strongest feelings that we as humans can relate too

[20:36] <beta> b/c she kills her self

[20:36] <DWROB> theta: good. She can't be viewed just as a nut

[20:37] <DWROB> H

[20:37] <epsilon> to show exactly how much A was willing to give up for this?

[20:37] <sigma> when Dido commits suicide, is that because of A's faithlessness???

[20:37] <vav> Because he loves her but chooses to do what the Gods command

[20:37] <iota> she just falls at his feet

[20:37] <aleph> in order for the reader to feel for A, something tragic has to happen to Dido

[20:37] <DWROB> she is an embodiment of the passion, love, emotional life that A gives up

[20:37] <gamma> he shows the power of love in a negative way

[20:37] <pi> its like his chance at a normal life dies with Dido

[20:37] <samech> he just falls at her feet

[20:37] <DWROB> If you don't recognize hat the love between them is real and passionate, the poem loses its zing completely

[20:37] <bet> so she is the antagonist

[20:37] <chi> because she is the tragic hero

[20:37] <chi> no, she is strong and shows how much A has to sacrifice

[20:37] <chi> lots of people kill themselves over love

[20:37] <epsilon> oh

[20:37] <kappa> A is too loyal to the future

[20:37] <samech> the Gods had to tell him

[20:37] <chi> they describe her love as a fire, something uncontrollable

[20:37] <dalet> no she is not the antagonist

[20:37] <beta> to show how strong he was that he could give her up for the gods

[20:38] <ayin> Everything he really wanted, but fate took it all away.

[20:38] <DWROB> Virgil is interested in showing the cost TO AENEAS of his heroism and piety

[20:38] <chi> i thought so

[20:38] <dalet> Turnus is the antagonist

[20:38] <beta> i thought Juno was?

[20:38] <phi> Turnus is the bad guy

[20:38] <tau> i thought Turnus was

[20:38] <nun> I thought it was Juno

[20:38] <dalet> that type of love is dangerous

[20:38] <DWROB> How often do you see a piece of propaganda about virtue and morality that puts so much emphasis on the personal misery that is its cost?

[20:38] <bet> i put Turnus too

[20:38] <epsilon> but does that really affect a

[20:38] <ayin> Both seem to be.

[20:39] <KENNY> She's the Queen of Carthage

[20:39] <KENNY> So their is a dynamic between nations in a way

[20:39] <DWROB> epsilon: does what?

[20:39] <he> not often

[20:39] <dalet> like some Christians

[20:39] <chi> i put Dido

[20:39] <eta> sometimes ... .

[20:39] <epsilon> is it Turnus or Juno

[20:39] <pi> its not Aeneas's muscles that make him a hero, its the ability for self sacrifice that transcends him above the typical human level and makes him a hero

[20:39] <theta> The Bible

[20:39] <bet> I would not say propaganda but i will mention Jesus

[20:39] <psi> propaganda is always used to persuade people to a point of view

[20:39] <DWROB> xxxx: yes, al of this is a reflection, too, of the rivalry of Rome and Carthage, projected backwards in to a mythic past

[20:39] <DWROB> bet: explain

[20:39] <iota> <DWROB> what does dido do about his A's faithlessness???

[20:39] <iota> <DWROB> isn't Juno the antagonist

[20:39] <theta> propaganda about virtue and morality with an emphasis on personal misery ... the Bible is an example of this

[20:39] <eta> like a "all gave some, some gave all" Vietnam shirt i saw ... does that count?

[20:40] <eta> but yes ... not often

[20:40] <vav> Puts a kind of curse on him and his children

[20:40] <DWROB> propaganda just means telling people what the "need to know". The gospel means "good news" -- what you need to know, hence propaganda :-)

[20:40] <bet> I'm biased b/c I'm christian but Jesus suffered for our forgiveness better future

[20:40] <sigma> i thought that Juno was the antagonist???

[20:40] <DWROB> bet: yes, and the gigantic size of the sacrifice is crucial to that story as well

[20:40] <ayin> Like the war.

[20:40] <bet> ok i needed a definition

[20:40] <beta> dr rob?

[20:40] <DWROB> on several levels

[20:40] <dalet> Dr. Rob, we need to know if Turnus is the antagonist

[20:40] <he> the arsonist has oddly shaped feet

[20:41] <psi> gospel is more of a way to give basis to the bibles ideals, propaganda is more of a way to tell people what to believe

[20:41] <DWROB> dalet: well, ultimate;y, OK

[20:41] <yod9> i thought Turnus was

[20:41] <pi> Juno is the antagonist

[20:41] <yod9> ooh ok

[20:41] <DWROB> But the real interest of the poem is A's struggle with his human side.

[20:41] <chi> can't you have more then one Antagonist?

[20:41] <DWROB> He's his own antagonist

[20:41] <tau> really?

[20:41] <phi> oh so we all got it wrong

[20:41] <bet> ha trick question

[20:41] <tau> anyone put that down?

[20:41] <ayin> Turnus is the human antagonist. Juno is the divine antagonist.

[20:41] <theta> that's cool ... haha

[20:41] <beta> so whats the answer to #1 on the quiz?

[20:41] <DWROB> Dido is there to bring this out, and to provide an example of what a really passionate person is like

[20:41] <epsilon> Juno is i agree

[20:41] <vav> that is what I thought.

[20:41] <phi> time to retake the quiz ...

[20:42] <DWROB> Oh -- you mean my quiz ...

[20:42] <psi> Juno has more of an effect on A

[20:42] <kappa> yes

[20:42] <DWROB> no, that’s a more basic antagonist I had in mind

[20:42] <beta> yeah ...

[20:42] <bet> Turnus?

[20:42] <DWROB> The behind the scenes antagonist

[20:42] <he> Venus

[20:42] <beta> Juno?

[20:42] <phi> definitely Turnus

[20:42] <bet> who

[20:42] <DWROB> ... ..

[20:42] <samech> Juno

[20:42] <psi> Juno

[20:42] <nun> Juno

[20:42] <he> she runs it from behind

[20:42] <tau> Turnus! Turnus!

[20:42] <theta> Juno

[20:42] <delta> Juno

[20:42] <sigma> Now I am confused, who is A's primary antagonist??

[20:42] <DWROB> enough

[20:42] <dalet> Turnus

[20:43] <beta> Juno! Juno! Juno!

[20:43] <iota> Juno should still count as an antagonist though

[20:43] <epsilon> who was behind the scenes

[20:43] <pi> I AM

[20:43] <DWROB> let's look at some quotes ...

[20:43] <eta> ok ... you will all find out who is right and who is wrong when the quizzes are graded

[20:43] <phi> maybe Odysseus was the antagonist, A has to prove he is the better hero

[20:43] <DWROB>

[20:43] Last message repeated 3 time(s).

[20:43] <DWROB> 1.

[20:43] <DWROB> [Dido talking to herself]

[20:43] <DWROB> Look now, what can I do? Turn once again

[20:43] <DWROB> To the old suitors, only to be laughed at --

[20:43] <DWROB> Begging a marriage with the Numidians

[20:43] <DWROB> Whom I disdained so often? then what? Trail

[20:43] <DWROB> The Ilian ship and follow like a slave

[20:43] <DWROB> Commands of Trojans? Seeing them so agreeable,

[20:43] <DWROB> In view of past assistance and relief,

[20:43] <DWROB> So thoughtful their unshaken gratitude?

[20:43] <DWROB> Suppose I wished it, who permits or takes

[20:43] <DWROB> Aboard their proud ships one they so dislike?

[20:43] <DWROB> ...

[20:43] <DWROB> No, die as you deserve,

[20:43] <DWROB> Give pain quietus with a steel blade.

[20:43] <DWROB>

[20:44] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:44] <DWROB> this is after A has sneaked away

[20:44] <DWROB> Is this woman crazy?

[20:44] <beta> yes

[20:44] <kappa> Yes

[20:44] <phi> crazy for him

[20:44] <ayin> A woman scorned.

[20:44] <delta> oh yea

[20:44] <dalet> low self-esteem

[20:44] <gamma> very

[20:44] <bet> no she is speaking the truth

[20:44] <tau> NOPE

[20:44] <samech> yes

[20:44] <vav> mad

[20:44] <eta> or very irrational

[20:44] <he> Crazy in a fit of rage

[20:44] <psi> She definitely thinks quite crazy

[20:44] <DWROB> how is she irrational here?

[20:44] <epsilon> yes

[20:44] <theta> not crazy ... it happens all the time.

[20:44] <eta> wait never mind..

[20:44] <iota> <dwrob> what about dido

[20:44] <theta> romeo and Juliet style ... yeah

[20:44] <DWROB> then love is madness

[20:44] <vav> talking to herself

[20:44] <chi> no she has a normal train of thought

[20:44] <psi> believing that A cares about her as much as the gods

[20:44] <sigma> very low self-esteem!!

[20:44] <kappa> She kills herself

[20:44] <eta> i was thinking that’s where she decided to kill herself

[20:44] <pi> she is so hurt by her pain that she doesn’t want to live anymore

[20:44] <ayin> Will end her own life if it means retaliating against him.

[20:45] <eta> is it?

[20:45] <bet> no she has turned down all these prospects and now has nothing

[20:45] <he> she wants to hurt herself

[20:45] <dalet> i don’t care, any woman kills herself over a man,is crazy

[20:45] <beta> she feels like A has made a mockery of her

[20:45] <he> that is irrational

[20:45] <samech> Love and do any thing

[20:45] <aleph> she thinks she can hurt him by killing herself

[20:45] <iota> about A's faithlessness

[20:45] <chi> most people would respond in a similar way

[20:45] <DWROB> bet: right -- she is rendering a rational estimate of her situation

[20:45] <delta> she feels she has nothing left

[20:45] <beta> agreed

[20:45] <he> naw i don't think so

[20:45] <sigma> I think that she is irrational, but not crazy

[20:45] <pi> of course but the point is it was showing how extreme her emotion was

[20:45] <epsilon> she wants to die, she's crazy

[20:45] <DWROB> she DOESNT have anything left!

[20:45] <kappa> A is gone, no reason to try to get his attention

[20:45] <ayin> She thinks this is the ultimate way to punish him..her death

[20:45] <dalet> think about how powerful dido was. she was the ruler

[20:45] <DWROB> Her political stature is ruined

[20:45] <ayin> She has her country.

[20:45] <tau> anyone ever had their heart broken? love does crazy things to a person

[20:45] <beta> she has her kingdom

[20:45] <he> Not a reason to kill yourself

[20:45] <he> don't care who you are

[20:45] <chi> they might not kill themselves but people take on destructive behavior like drinking

[20:45] <bet> she now has no one to turn to

[20:45] <pi> i don’t think its supposed to be a sexist thing, its trying to show the reality of her pain

[20:46] <delta> right so its time to end it all in her sights

[20:46] <DWROB> To the Romans this humiliation would have been good reason for suicide, as a way of regaining some honor

[20:46] <nun> She gave up everything for him, and everybody hated her for getting with Aeneas, so in her mind she felt she had to kill herself ...

[20:46] <epsilon> she has no one in her life

[20:46] <yod9> makes for good reading though

[20:46] <he> maybe she just needs to buy a pet

[20:46] <samech> Love has to be the most famous topic to write about

[20:46] <gamma> it is taking the easy way out

[20:46] <eta> that is where she decides to kill herself with the sword right.. or wrong

[20:46] <kappa> I guess it all matters what time frame you put it in

[20:46] <nun> in her mind she was not crazy ...

[20:46] <chi> her people are angry that she fell for a foreigner it is an insult to her people so she lost her kingdom

[20:46] <DWROB> she has broken her vow, been spurned, been made a fool of before her people and political rivals

[20:46] <iota> anyone that would do that is crazy and needs the nut house

[20:46] <DWROB> rivals

[20:46] <dalet> well not in modern American society

[20:46] <nun> to the Romans ... who knows

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[20:46] <DWROB> her reign is destroyed

[20:46] <delta> they had much respect for A and she would have messed that up

[20:46] <bet> she has no reason to live

[20:46] <sigma> A did not just leave her, he denied her

[20:46] <sigma> she didn't just kill herself because he left, also because he denied what was between them

[20:46] <ayin> Nothing left to do ... she ended it all.

[20:46] <DWROB> what's she supposed to do, take up oil painting?

[20:46] <pi> oh its like in china if the emperor tells you to kill yourself you do it out of honor and devotion to him

[20:46] <epsilon> she gave up everything for him and after he left, nothing but humiliation was waiting for her

[20:47] <theta> die

[20:47] <delta> ha

[20:47] <beta> follow him to Italy

[20:47] <he> So is A stayed with D would there be a Rome

[20:47] <eta> possibly ...

[20:47] <bet> her people don’t even like her

[20:47] <phi> run away like Louis 16th

[20:47] <vav> go with him

[20:47] <tau> die to restore her honor

[20:47] <sigma> he took everything away from her

[20:47] <samech> she found a way to love again

[20:47] <DWROB> beta: but she is a queen, and has some pride left

[20:47] <dalet> rediscover the Nightlife, be single and free again

[20:47] <he> really that’s awesome

[20:47] gimmel (~gimmel@ left irc: Quit

[20:47] <theta> a very selfish queen

[20:47] <DWROB> dalet: not this time!

[20:47] <theta> very, very selfish

[20:47] <kappa> Pride is a beast once again

[20:47] <lambda> she was left with nothing

[20:47] <pi> they didn’t view suicide like we do now

[20:47] <beta> i guess she got what she really wanted then ...

[20:47] <eta> hmmm

[20:47] <he> ???

[20:47] <pi> it was respectable

[20:47] <beta> her first husband back

[20:47] <gamma> she made her own choice

[20:48] ayin (~ayin@ left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer

[20:48] <tau> the nightlife back then must have been a blast found

[20:48] <DWROB> I would suggest that you be careful not to too easily medicalize her situation -- Virgil thinks that suicide is a rational possible choice

[20:48] <nun> so did everybody expect her to kill herself?

[20:48] <epsilon> she was left with nothing, so she thought, she was too self fish to think of anything else

[20:48] <dalet> did she kill herself to get back to her 1st husband quicker?

[20:48] <beta> "the love of her life"

[20:48] <DWROB> She has no other honorable option,.

[20:48] <epsilon> but her own happiness

[20:48] <DWROB> Suicide has a different status for the Romans.

[20:48] <bet> she could disappear

[20:48] <kappa> Like I said, back then that may be a good option,

[20:48] <eta> but killing yourself ... we cant argue with Virgil ...

[20:48] <beta> oh, ok

[20:48] <DWROB> Much as it has had for the Japanese

[20:48] <sigma> she really wanted A and she did not get that--suicide was her second choice

[20:48] <samech> love caused her Suicide?

[20:48] <delta> that was honorable?

[20:48] <theta> why didn't she go Medea’s route?

[20:48] <he> Samurai

[20:48] <pi> so if she was expected to do it then did Aeneas know she would kill herself before he left?

[20:48] <bet> last samurai

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[20:48] <lambda> it was a way to keep your honor

[20:49] <epsilon> oh ok

[20:49] <he> honorable to commit suicide

[20:49] <DWROB> samech: partly -- she is partly depressed over the lost love, and partly humiliated y her lost power and status

[20:49] <dalet> like Kamikaze

[20:49] <sigma> yerp

[20:49] <eta> ohh ok ... yeah ... they didn’t have OUR suicide ideals like today

[20:49] <beta> that’s not a modern western thought

[20:49] <delta> nice analogy

[20:49] <DWROB> eta: right, this is pre-Christian

[20:49] <he> indeed not

[20:49] <chi> he did not care if she killed herself

[20:49] <iota> ok well to me class is over because i obviously cant get a question answered

[20:49] <samech> Romans Suicide (its ok)???

[20:49] <DWROB> I don't actually know where that Christian taboo on suicide comes from -- interesting thing to track down

[20:49] <pi> so does that mean that Aeneas pretty much knew she would do it before she left

[20:50] <pi> its a mortal sin

[20:50] <gamma> it was a slap in the face

[20:50] <eta> if you have nothing left and want to keep your honor and good name.. yes

[20:50] <pi> which you want have time to make up for

[20:50] <DWROB> samech: yes, preferable to being dishonored buy your enemies

[20:50] <sigma> i still need to know too

[20:50] <dalet> it is scriptural, where, i don’t know

[20:50] <DWROB> another quote ... .

[20:50] <DWROB>

[20:50] Last message repeated 4 time(s).

[20:50] <DWROB> 2.

[20:50] <ayin> If it was not looked down on at all, why was there a particular place in the underworld for suicides.

[20:50] <DWROB> Aeneas, now quite certain of departure,

[20:50] <DWROB> Everything ready, took the boon of sleep.

[20:50] <DWROB> In dream the figure of the god returned ...

[20:50] <DWROB> Again to warn him ... :

[20:50] <DWROB> "Son of the goddess,

[20:50] <samech> Didn't know that.

[20:50] <DWROB> Sleep away this crisis, can you still?

[20:51] <DWROB> Do you not see the dangers growing round you,

[20:51] <DWROB> Madman, from now on? Can you not hear

[20:51] <DWROB> The offshore westwind blow? The woman hatches

[20:51] <DWROB> Plots and drastic actions in her heart,

[20:51] <DWROB> Resolved on death now, whipping herself on

[20:51] <DWROB> To heights of anger. Will you not be gone

[20:51] <DWROB> In flight, while flight is still within your power?

[20:51] <DWROB> Soon you will see the offing boil with ships

[20:51] <DWROB> And glare with torches; soon again

[20:51] <DWROB> The waterfront will be alive with fires,

[20:51] <pi> suicide is a mortal sin that you don’t have time to make up for on earth so you automatically go to hell, and who would choose that path knowing their eternal pain? that’s where the horridness of it comes in christian society

[20:51] <DWROB> If dawn comes while you linger in this country.

[20:51] <DWROB> Ha! Come, break the spell! Woman's a thing

[20:51] <DWROB> Forever fitful and forever changing."

[20:51] <DWROB>

[20:51] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:51] <DWROB> Because they are especially sad and tragic

[20:51] <DWROB> she is not being punished for her suicide in the afterlife, notice

[20:51] <beta> so if it was honorable - why did they go to the bad side of Hades?

[20:52] <DWROB> pi: yes, I know that, but I wonder when the doctrine became established historically

[20:52] <dalet> it says somewhere how a man cannot take his own life

[20:52] <DWROB> read the passage -- notice anything odd?

[20:52] <samech> She made it to the other side

[20:52] <pi> sorry i interrupted

[20:52] <delta> he is being warned

[20:52] <dalet> Woman's forever a fitful and forever changing. that's cold

[20:52] <DWROB> dalet: good!

[20:52] <dalet> i know some men can fit that description

[20:52] <DWROB> what about that?

[20:52] <phi> its a warning

[20:52] <bet> he is being told that she is just having a fit

[20:52] <DWROB> Is that a true statement?

[20:52] Action: DWROB ducks

[20:53] <delta> yes

[20:53] <samech> she planed the funeral

[20:53] <DWROB> dalet: indeed

[20:53] <sigma> poor iota!

[20:53] <chi> what is fitful?

[20:53] <pi> a temper tantrum

[20:53] <ayin> It has been true so far.

[20:53] <iota> definitely

[20:53] <psi> yes

[20:53] <kappa> yes

[20:53] <samech> or alter

[20:53] <DWROB> chi: prone to irregular random movement

[20:53] <epsilon> ya

[20:53] <lambda> yes

[20:53] <DWROB> You are all saying Dido is fickle and untrue?

[20:53] <beta> oh ok

[20:53] <chi> oh

[20:54] <bet> no

[20:54] <DWROB> no!

[20:54] <DWROB> is right!

[20:54] <chi> well in the mind of men our actions might seem random

[20:54] <bet> she was true to her dead husband

[20:54] <delta> fickle maybe

[20:54] <he> she was smart

[20:54] <sigma> i liked dido

[20:54] <DWROB> but in the poem ...

[20:54] <beta> fickle yes, untrue?

[20:54] <DWROB> who is steadfast in this relationship?

[20:54] <pi> women are crazy its a fact

[20:54] <DWROB> and who changes, fitfully?

[20:54] <he> she is

[20:54] <dalet> The god warned a that Dido was planning something drastic anyway

[20:54] <ayin> She is.

[20:54] <bet> dido

[20:54] <delta> dido

[20:54] <phi> dido

[20:54] <DWROB> dalet: OK, but is that true?

[20:54] <beta> Dido

[20:54] <chi> Men can never really write women

[20:54] <bet> A is changing

[20:55] <DWROB> Is the god telling the truth???

[20:55] <epsilon> no not necessarily

[20:55] <epsilon> dido

[20:55] <bet> no

[20:55] <kappa> no

[20:55] <tau> nope

[20:55] <sigma> iota, maybe I can help you with your question, state it again

[20:55] <DWROB> What is Dido planning?

[20:55] <dalet> yes it is true

[20:55] <bet> hes making a feel better

[20:55] <ayin> No, just wants him to hurry and move on.

[20:55] <epsilon> no

[20:55] <chi> A is the one who changes his mind

[20:55] <chi> NO

[20:55] <DWROB> right!

[20:55] <DWROB> the danger for the Big Plan is that he will give in to his love, take pity

[20:55] <iota> thanks, I just wanted to know about his faithlessness

[20:56] <DWROB> So the god say, "get out of here -- this b____ is crazy!"

[20:56] gamma (~gamma@ left irc: Ping timeout

[20:56] <DWROB> And it's a LIE!

[20:56] <DWROB> or a half-truth

[20:56] <ayin> And not fulfill his destiny to find a new country.

[20:56] <DWROB> right

[20:56] <chi> the god is just trying to get him to leave to fulfill his destiny

[20:56] <chi> haha

[20:56] <dalet> LOL!!!

[20:56] <pi> so they made Aeneas believe it was ok to take off

[20:56] <phi> hah

[20:56] <beta> agreed

[20:56] <sigma> i asked the same question, but I didn't get it answered either-sorry!

[20:56] <dalet> :-)

[20:56] <beta> ;-)

[20:56] <epsilon> haha

[20:56] <sigma> hehe

[20:56] <DWROB> pi: I think so -- but A also seems to know the truth in his heart, because of what he says later on ... .

[20:57] <ayin> In so many words.

[20:57] <DWROB> and now to that ...

[20:57] <dalet> but end the in the B was crazy!

[20:57] <DWROB>

[20:57] Last message repeated 3 time(s).

[20:57] <DWROB> 3.

[20:57] <DWROB> The Trojan captain paused nearby and knew

[20:57] <DWROB> Her dim form in the dark, as one who sees,

[20:57] <bet> he asks her why she was upset duh!

[20:57] <DWROB> Early in the month, or thinks to have seen, the moon

[20:57] <DWROB> Rising through cloud, all dim. He wept and spoke

[20:57] <DWROB> Tenderly to her:

[20:57] <DWROB> "Dido, so forlorn,

[20:57] <DWROB> The story then that came to me was true,

[20:57] <kappa> She was being honorable

[20:57] <DWROB> That you were out of life, had met your end

[20:57] vav (~vav@ left irc: Quit

[20:57] <DWROB> By your own hand. Was I, was I the cause?

[20:57] <DWROB> I swear by heaven's stars, by the high gods,

[20:57] <DWROB> By any certainty below the earth,

[20:57] <DWROB> I left your land against my will, my queen,

[20:57] <DWROB> The gods' commands drove me to do their will,

[20:57] <DWROB> As now they drive me through the world of shades,

[20:57] <DWROB> These mouldy waste lands and these depths of night.

[20:57] <DWROB> And I could not believe that I would hurt you

[20:57] <DWROB> So terribly by going. Wait a little.

[20:58] <DWROB> Do not leave my sight.

[20:58] <DWROB> Am I someone to flee from? The last word

[20:58] <DWROB> Destiny lets me say to you is this."

[20:58] <DWROB>

[20:58] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:58] <DWROB> This is in the underworld ...

[20:58] <beta> he's genuine, really is sorry

[20:58] <DWROB> stop -- read

[20:58] <DWROB> I think so, but being a man, he manages also to be partly full of crap.

[20:58] <delta> I feel a tear

[20:58] iota ( left irc: Quit

[20:58] <DWROB> " Was I, was I the cause?"

[20:58] <DWROB> Oh, come ON!

[20:58] <bet> he knows

[20:58] <kappa> He now understands the impact of his actions and it burns him

[20:58] <dalet> Dido was like, buzz off, Jerk

[20:58] <he> no deff. not

[20:58] <yod9> no crying in class

[20:59] <bet> he wanted to believe the poem

[20:59] <sigma> he's not sorry, he's in denial

[20:59] <beta> that’s true to, but it also says he cries here and not when he first leaves her

[20:59] <DWROB> I agree, I find it moving too, but I'm full of crap myself

[20:59] <he> Of course its not gonna be his fault

[20:59] <ayin> He knows, but wanted to see what she thought.

[20:59] <epsilon> he is sorry but he felt that it was his duties from a power higher than hers, the gods, to do what was asked of him

[20:59] <bet> ha

[20:59] <delta> he knew though

[20:59] <DWROB> ayin: yes

[20:59] <nun> He was truly sorry this time, but not when he left

[20:59] <DWROB> He is honest when he says it was against his will

[20:59] <sigma> no crying in baseball

[20:59] <ayin> Acting a little dumb!!

[20:59] <delta> he probably knew she was crazy too

[20:59] <DWROB> But of course that doesn't cut it with her, either

[20:59] <nun> maybe because he saw what he did to her

[20:59] <phi> he realized that he caused all this pain because he wasn’t paying attention to what he loved

[20:59] <bet> true but he tried to sneak off

[20:59] <epsilon> he didn’t want to believe that he did this to someone while only trying to accomplish good for the rest

[20:59] <kappa> Can't do anything to please her

[21:00] <ayin> She went back to her first husband!!

[21:00] <DWROB> She loved him enough to give up everything -- he didn't love her that much

[21:00] <beta> he realized A LOT when he was in the underworld

[21:00] gamma (~gamma@ joined #2111web.

[21:00] <delta> I agree

[21:00] <DWROB> He wronged her and there is no getting around it

[21:00] <dalet> That's why Dido was like, yeah, right

[21:00] <he> but he knows the end result will be in his own fulfillment

[21:00] <DWROB> The contradiction is what constitutes tragedy here

[21:00] <chi> he is ignorant

[21:00] <chi> he doesn't want it to be his fault

[21:00] <chi> will of the gods or not

[21:00] <sigma> was she crazy before he left her and denied her?

[21:00] <epsilon> the feelings weren’t mutual

[21:00] <DWROB> he: I hope that makes him feel better!

[21:00] <dalet> but at least she got back w/her 1st love.

[21:00] <he> Well you can't make the gods mad

[21:00] <DWROB> sigma: crazy in love

[21:00] <gamma> still sucks for her

[21:01] <he> love or life

[21:01] <he> of his people

[21:01] <ayin> He had to nerve to ask her why she was turning from him now?

[21:01] <eta> you have to listen to the gods ...

[21:01] <DWROB> Let's look at what her response to this heroic weenie is ... .

[21:01] <delta> he had good intentions doesn't that count

[21:01] <sigma> yeah right

[21:01] <sigma> he drove her to her craziness

[21:01] <DWROB>

[21:01] Last message repeated 3 time(s).

[21:01] <DWROB> 4.

[21:01] <DWROB> Aeneas with such pleas tried to placate

[21:01] <DWROB> The burning soul, savagely glaring back,

[21:01] <DWROB> And tears came to his eyes. But she had turned

[21:01] <DWROB> With gaze fixed on the ground as he spoke on,

[21:01] <DWROB> Her face no more effected than if she were

[21:01] <DWROB> Immobile granite or Marpesian stone.

[21:01] <he> Doesn’t matter the excuses the damage has been done

[21:01] <DWROB> At length she flung away from him and fled,

[21:01] <DWROB> His enemy still, into the shadowy grove

[21:01] <DWROB> Where he whose bride she once had been, Sychaeus,

[21:01] <DWROB> Joined in her sorrows and returned her love.

[21:01] <DWROB> Aeneas still gazed after her in tears,

[21:01] <DWROB> Shaken by her ill fate and pitying her.

[21:01] <DWROB>

[21:01] Last message repeated 1 time(s).

[21:01] <sigma> weenie?

[21:01] <DWROB>

[21:02] <DWROB> weenie

[21:02] <beta> it says he cries here and not when he first leaves her

[21:02] <dalet> not a weenie, a sensitive man

[21:02] <DWROB> I? Was it I? Puh-leeze

[21:02] <he> haha

[21:02] <bet> i can fake cry

[21:02] <pi> i think he knew all along but seeing her there was an extra kick in the balls

[21:02] <delta> so funny

[21:02] <dalet> that's what's wrong w/men these days

[21:02] <chi> not really

[21:02] <chi> men don't have passion like women

[21:02] <eta> yeah ... he cant play dumb

[21:02] <mu> he knew it was him

[21:02] <pi> i wasn’t exactly faking here but if he thought about it he already knew

[21:02] <nun> yeah he was upset that she committed suicide because of him

[21:02] <ayin> Trying to smooth things over to relieve his conscious.

[21:02] <DWROB> Why is he "shaken" here?

[21:02] <beta> that is a modern thought (for A's time)

[21:02] <DWROB> shaken by her ill fate

[21:02] <he> consumed with guilt

[21:02] <ayin> Guilty conscience.

[21:02] <nun> because he saw what he did

[21:03] <bet> she finally sees her grief

[21:03] <gamma> he knows it was his fault

[21:03] <sigma> men don't have sympathy

[21:03] <dalet> Oh, Aeneas just missed the passionate sex

[21:03] <kappa> Because he sees her

[21:03] <phi> he is looking at a dead person

[21:03] <eta> because he is actually having to face her, rather than leaving in the night

[21:03] <DWROB> nun: yes, and she doesn't let him off the hook.

[21:03] <mu> what?

[21:03] <pi> because the reality of his dead lover hit him pretty square in the face

[21:03] <epsilon> ya i don't think he realized what would happen until he was actually faced with it

[21:03] <epsilon> because maybe he had never seen her like that

[21:03] <samech> It was his fought

[21:03] <mu> yes men do

[21:03] <delta> guilt

[21:03] <DWROB> "Oh. it's OK honey, you did what you had to."

[21:03] <DWROB> not

[21:03] <sigma> he knows he messed up

[21:03] <sigma> he comes crawling in with his tail between his legs

[21:03] <ayin> She no longer thought he was Mr. Fantastic.

[21:03] <bet> he is now truly sorry

[21:03] <beta> he more than messed up in her eyes

[21:03] <he> hey a mans gotta do what a mans gotta do

[21:03] <epsilon> haha

[21:04] <beta> good one xxxx

[21:04] <nun> Mr. Fantastic..that's good

[21:04] <pi> hes like "sh*t, of all the places i'd have to wind up ... "

[21:04] <DWROB> Her response is royal, noble, proud, scary, and true -- his position is virtuous but paralyzed, weak, ambivalent

[21:04] <epsilon> no no

[21:04] <ayin> Yea xxxx 3449!

[21:04] <DWROB> She is a whiff of the old, pre-modern values -- he is a modern man

[21:04] <dalet> good one pi

[21:04] <beta> good one dr rob

[21:04] <he> yeah not very sympathetic

[21:04] <epsilon> he doesn't know what to do

[21:04] <DWROB> ayin: heh

[21:04] <chi> how dense can you be?

[21:04] <chi> because he knows it's his fault

[21:04] <chi> he's not sorry

[21:04] <chi> he forgets the second he talks about his duty

[21:04] <sigma> nevyers!!!!!!

[21:05] <beta> he was probably like that b/c he was like "dang I came down here to see my dad and I had to run into her ... "

[21:05] <DWROB> OK, time to go back to our own ambivalent lives, in love and war.

[21:05] <pi> no i don't think so hall, he is more sorry when he actually has to be faced with it

[21:05] <DWROB> That's it!

[21:05] <pi> before the reality of what probably happened wasn't clear to him

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[21:05] <he> peace we outta here

[21:05] <kappa> alrighty then

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[21:05] <phi> have a good spring break

[21:05] <mu> goodnight

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[21:05] <delta> Spring Break next week

[21:06] <DWROB> same to you -- be sure to read the Gospel of Matthew

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[21:06] <chi> but he just blows it off 5 min later

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[21:06] <delta> bye

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[21:06] <ayin> good chat

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[21:06] <DWROB> thanks

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[21:08] <samech> This is Dan Rather signing off.

[21:09] <nun> not quite

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[21:09] <samech> Did you see that sad.

[21:09] <nun> Firefox went nuts on me

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