Chat 11: Atsumori
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#2111web: mode change '+o DWROB' by Socrates!~Socrates@192.168.1.5
Topic changed on #2111web by DWROB!DWROB@192.168.1.10: Atsumori
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#2111web: mode change '+o DWROB' by Socrates!~Socrates@192.168.1.5
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<upsilon> The test opens tomorrow right
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<beta> that's what the website says
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<omega> g
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<DWROB> Thank you, Socrates
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<chi> Is there something wrong with the quizzes, because my last one isn't graded and This weeks is still locked?
<DWROB> This week's is not locked.
<iota> so we get the test tomorrow
<chi> i checked it an hour ago and it was still locked
<vav> mine was not
<kappa> are you sure you read the right title
<psi> your clicking on the wrong one
<DWROB> We are doing Atsumori this week, per the syllabus
<omega> mine neither
<psi> you have to click the next one over
<vav> the one that is locked is Korean and 1001 knights, which we have not read yet
<DWROB> Koran is skipped -- not on syllabus
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<chi> oh
<vav> right
<DWROB> exam will go live tonight -- I am leaving in the morning for NYC and I'll have to open it beforehand
<upsilon> ok
<bet> for vacation?
<dalet> what do we read next
<beta> same format as last time??
<vav> what time tonight
<DWROB> Dante, as per the syllabus
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<DWROB> before midnight
<chi> i feel special
<DWROB> Let's talk about general matters first -- did you read the Buddhist material I mentioned and linked to?
<he> yes
<kaf> yes
<kappa> yes
<aleph> yes, it helped with the reading
<delta> yes
<beta> yep
<he> It helped with the discussion
<omicron> yup
<vav> yes
<dalet> no. where is it
<rho5> yes
<bet> it made things more understandable
<DWROB> Does everybody/anybody have a grip on Hinduism vs. Buddhism?
<lambda> yes
<gamma> yes
<aleph> sort of
<rho5> yes
<dalet> somewhat
<chi> yes
<lambda> sort of
<bet> yes
<sigma> yes
<kappa> somewhat
<beta> kinda
<DWROB> OK, what were the key concept in Hinduism?
<sigma> somewhat
<iota> somewhat
<DWROB> key concepts
<aleph> doing good in this life got you a better next life
<gamma> kind of
<DWROB> what you need to know
<omega> yeah
<omega> kind of
<DWROB> OK -- next life -- reincarnation -- samsara, the cycle of rebirth
<bet> reincarnation and karma
<delta> karma?
<chi> enlightenment
<DWROB> and Karma, the moral condition of your soul ... it literally means "cause and effect"
<aleph> dharma - duty
<omega> every thing builds up to your reincarnation or rebirth
<iota> yes karma
<beta> and dharma too
<DWROB> dharma, good -- duty
<bet> the better you are in the present the better life you will have in the future
<rho5> what happen on earth affect the after life
<DWROB> what you must do for good karma, so to speak
<gamma> sounds simple enough
<sigma> how you live your present life predicts your future lives
<kappa> good now, better life later
<DWROB> ALSO -- the physical world is fleeting, an illusion. Only the spiritual is real and permanent
<rho5> be the best you can be
<bet> karma is basically ;do unto others
<he> live life well now to be rewarded later
<DWROB> Thus Arjuna needed to do his duty and not worry about physical death
<eta> you get what's coming
<rho5> true
<DWROB> physicality is an illusion -- all should live forever
<DWROB> all souls
<DWROB> perpetually reborn
<dalet> like Christianity
<vav> somewhat
<sigma> it is the opposite to most of us-the physical world is what is real to us and the spiritual world is more or less an illusion
<bet> until enlightenment
<DWROB> Christianity doesn't have samsara!
<dalet> i mean the soul is forever
<DWROB> sigma: indeed; Socrates takes a similar position on what's real
<bet> no reincarnation either
<DWROB> The real Socrates :-P
<DWROB> Now, what does Buddhism say to all this?
<he> suffer
<beta> eventually you will reach nirvana
<eta> eventually ...
<DWROB> not necessarily
<aleph> suffering is part of life and leads to not having to suffer and reach nirvana
<eta> oh
<sigma> some parallels
<kaf> suffering is inevitable
<lambda> you work towards nirvana
<delta> path to suffrage
<DWROB> yes -- inevitable, and also illusory, because it is grounded in the physical, and in desire
<kappa> suffering is necessary to get to nirvana, you must rid yourself of desires
<DWROB> desire of the physical and of the self, both unreal
<iota> somewhat alike
<dalet> we talked about this in the bhag ghita
<gamma> you must accept and deal with the good and the bad equally
<sigma> is it easier to fulfill dharma or to reach nirvana?
<bet> true, you have to release all self desire
<DWROB> Buddhism is to Hinduism as Christianity is to Judaism -- it is a religion of personal salvation
<chi> your main goal is to reach enlightenment
<DWROB> escape from Samsara is possible through religious attitudes and rites.
<DWROB> escape == end of rebirth == Nirvana == death
<iota> you must suffer to eventually reach spirituality
<iota> and you must sin and repent
<rho5> in that order?
<DWROB> So ...
<DWROB>
<DWROB> The Four Noble Truths
<DWROB> 1. Life means suffering.
<DWROB> 2. The origin of suffering is attachment.
<DWROB> 3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.
<DWROB> 4. The path to the cessation of suffering.
<DWROB>
<aleph> so you reach nirvana before death and then die?\
<DWROB> attachment means desire
<DWROB> the extinction of desire ends suffering
<DWROB> The path to extinguishing is ... . the 8-fold path ...
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<lambda> so wanting less brings closer to nirvana
<chi> that is why monks have no attachments
<DWROB> 1. Right View
<DWROB> 2. Right Intention
<DWROB> 3. Right Speech
<DWROB> 4. Right Action
<DWROB> 5. Right Livelihood
<rho5> let go of all desires?
<DWROB> 6. Right Effort
<DWROB> 7. Right Mindfulness
<DWROB> 8. Right Concentration
<DWROB>
<DWROB> yes -- and Do Right (see above)
<he> k
<DWROB> not dramatically different form the 10 commandments
<DWROB> a code for living
<sigma> so it is better not to form attachments then?
<DWROB> not attachments to unreal things
<DWROB> money, possessions,
<DWROB> etc.
<DWROB> life
<dalet> Buddhist monks never marry or have children like christian monks?
<DWROB> in the physical world, that is
<sigma> Although, the ten commandments are more specific
<DWROB> that's right
<kaf> Right, why be attached if they aren't real
<chi> what about love?
<iota> yes
<DWROB> oh, well, the 8 are fully elucidated in the Buddhist scriptures
<eta> you cant take any of it with you anyways
<bet> it seems like this religion is more of a state of mind
<DWROB> love is implied but not specified
<dalet> love is too personal i guess
<beta> love is just another attachment
<sigma> oh, okay
<DWROB> Also, the concept of the gods is not central or necessary
<kappa> attachments are bad to Buddhists
<rho5> but attachments to natural things, like spirits and ghost
<DWROB> beta: not love in Jesus' sense
<sigma> everybody needs to love and be loved though
<chi> but soul mates and reincarnation kinda go together
<vav> why?
<beta> no, according to Buddhist belief
<aleph> so what part does Buddha play? Just the first person to reach Nirvana?
<DWROB> Jesus saw love implied by the law; he would have had no problem with Buddhist ethics either
<dalet> Buddhism seems to focus on a lot of self control
<DWROB> aleph: a Buddha is someone who has achieved enlightenment. We can all do this by following the 8-fold path
<chi> more like self discipline
<bet> is Buddha just someone Buddhists look up to?
<DWROB> yes -- very important
<delta> solitary comes to mind
<kappa> They must discipline themselves fairly strictly then
<rho5> control over ones mind and soul
<DWROB> Gautama Buddha is not an object of worship, but he is venerated
<sigma> and enlightenment is reached before becoming a Buddha?
<gamma> an example for them to follow
<lambda> he is what people try to be then?
<iota> love comes with an attachment
<DWROB> OK, what does all of this have to o with, say, the Heike?
<aleph> how is he not worshiped if people have statues of him?
<dalet> makes better sense
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<dalet> Atsumori
<DWROB> We have a statue of a Confederate soldier on the courthouse square but few people worship it
<aleph> they are trying to achieve enlightenment / nirvana letting go of attachments
<DWROB> how so?
<kappa> They weren't really striving for this, not with their actions
<rho5> he is a symbol
<bet> respect and memory
<chi> what is the Heike?
<DWROB> what is the Heike about?
<aleph> they change their name - very important in lots of cultures
<dalet> how the powerful became the footstool
<eta> well, Kumagai changes his name to Rensho and gave up his old life
<DWROB> OK -- pride and sin going before a fall, certainly
<kappa> went from power to nothing
<mu> they change their name for a new way of life
<DWROB> The Kiyomori is one evil guy
<DWROB> I like his toasty deathbed scene.
<delta> very evil
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<vav> he burns for it
<he> sly
<kappa> If he wasn't so evil they may have stood a better chance against the Genji
<dalet> Heike has to do w/karma
<iota> spirituality
<chi> it was awesome
<DWROB> Sort of how I imagine Richard Nixon's deathbed scene
<dalet> oooh
<bet> ? how so
<dalet> fire!!!
<sigma> definitely
<DWROB> So why is this a story about a bunch of losers in this civil war? Why do we care about them?
<dalet> could you imagine such a death, as if descending into hell
<DWROB> Why not a story about the winners (there is one, of course ... )?
<aleph> it still teaches a lesson
<bet> because Rensho had to make a choice out of two bad options
<dalet> to see both sides of the story i guess. to prove a point about karma
<beta> b/c its tragic
<DWROB> hold off on Rensho
<bet> ok
<DWROB> tragic?
<kappa> Tells of honor, I suppose
<KENNY4> They suffered
<DWROB> explain how there is tragedy
<he> because this is a story bout karma
<eta> cause and effect
<delta> because they were most powerful then least powerful
<omicron> in a way it is
<gamma> duty
<bet> It has qualities of death but not completely
<lambda> shows the extreme fall
<chi> because winning or losing is trivial, but the way you live after is important
<aleph> it has an ending that is not happy
<sigma> the losers give examples of either what not to do or how to go about making a change
<sigma> very tragic
<DWROB> Are the Heike worse people than the Genji?
<bet> no real tragic flaw
<mu> remorse
<chi> people were doing things they knew to be wrong
<delta> no remorse
<DWROB> some were
<aleph> they are the same in the end
<he> how can you tell
<theta> the chief character suffered a devastating fate
<DWROB> Are the rank and file Heike people worse?
<dalet> the Heike and Genji have evil people
<sigma> they parallel one another
<DWROB> yes, the boss was a bad guy
<bet> wasn't there leader a lot worse
<chi> no they just happened to win
<sigma> yes
<kappa> One bad person can spoil the entire group
<DWROB> they are all just people, and the Heike are paying the price for their leader's misrule
<chi> it doesn't matter because in the end they will all be the same
<DWROB> and their own comfortable period in power
<omicron> he is giving the rest of them a bad name
<DWROB> Yes -- good -- all the same -- meaning what?
<bet> all souls
<DWROB> the souls live on, but ...
<bet> their rank in life is the same
<chi> things are getting balanced out
<eta> all will be reborn again as equals ... Rensho and Atsumori would be brothers
<DWROB> everything else in the world passes away
<DWROB> all is illusory, evanescent
<delta> they go back to being the same as in the beginning
<DWROB> the power of the Heike, their earthly lives
<he> you have to be reborn a good person
<bet> all is fleeting
<aleph> sort of like fate?
<DWROB> everything passes -- that's the main theme -- the mood is very solemn, elegiac
<chi> winning or losing doesn't affect your soul
<DWROB> it is fate, yes
<kappa> yes
<psi> fate
<chi> that is why praying for peoples souls is so important
<iota> right'
<iota> meaning that everything balances out in the end
<lambda> how you acted while alive is more important
<DWROB> In Jodo Buddhism it is, as in Atsumori
<psi> so everything evens out
<gamma> fate once again
<DWROB> So in the face of certain defeat, what do the Heike do?
<sigma> correct
<bet> flee
<rho5> run
<dalet> they scram
<kaf> flee
<psi> they hit the sea
<he> run away
<mu> run
<delta> flee
<psi> and flee
<kappa> flee for their life
<gamma> run
<beta> high tale it
<DWROB> are do they act?
<DWROB> how do they act?
<DWROB> are they admirable or not?
<bet> defeated
<eta> dishonorable?
<sigma> get out
<delta> prideful
<psi> very solemn
<dalet> not admirable
<rho5> no
<DWROB> No?
<mu> dishonored
<dalet> cowardly
<aleph> honor should have made them stay
<psi> like cowards
<DWROB> didn't you feel sympathy for them?
<psi> nope
<dalet> somewhat
<delta> I did
<DWROB> some were cowards, some defected
<chi> sail away
<eta> like cowards ...
<bet> not really
<he> yeah they were defeated
<DWROB> but some were loyal to the end
<mu> nope
<psi> they had there time to rule
<kappa> not really
<gamma> very dishonorable
<vav> not really
<bet> like the samurai
<psi> they imploded not exploded
<DWROB> they are not all dishonored
<kappa> most acted without honor
<DWROB> dishonored
<kaf> scattered
<sigma> in a panic
<lambda> so not everybody is the same
<iota> no
<psi> most are dishonored
<rho5> like the Japanese in WWII
<sigma> majority were not though and that shows the mood of the group
<chi> they had no real chance to survive under the circumstances
<DWROB> yes -- many or most do their duty, remain loyal, preserve their honor
<delta> some of them just did what they had to do
<he> the actions of a few and the leader will reflect on the group as a whole
<bet> the ones that were brave and stayed till death were honored
<psi> and die fighting
<DWROB> Yes -- honorable death
<chi> those who fought to the death were honorable?
<DWROB> suicide also
<aleph> so it doesn't matter what the masses did, it's what you did yourself in the end
<DWROB> absioolutely
<DWROB> right!
<lambda> was that the honorable thing for the time period
<psi> so if you die honorably then your soul is safe
<eta> fighting or taking your own life
<DWROB> Suicide is a way to escape the dishonor of defeat
<dalet> suicide was honorable like kamikaze
<DWROB> It is a statement of disregard for fleeting things
<bet> like being a kamikaze was honorable
<kappa> yeah
<iota> they trie to do what was honorable and brave
<he> the easy way out
<beta> didn't we talk about that in another story?
<rho5> not to be taken by the enemy
<aleph> suicide was honorable only in certain situations - like war
<iota> an easy way out
<vav> yes
<DWROB> the kamikaze stuff is rotted in this outlook, clearly
<DWROB> rooted
<sigma> personally it doesn't matter what the masses did, but it does show how the norm behaved
<DWROB> no, not the easy way out
<DWROB> cowardice is the easy way out
<DWROB> begging for mercy, cutting a deal
<chi> they had no respect for life
<dalet> i was gonna say, what do u mean by rotted
<bet> suicide is not exactly easy ... . i would assume
<DWROB> they die with dignity in battle or by their own hands
<eta> much easier to run away than fall on your sword
<rho5> being taken by your enemy is cowardly
<kappa> The honorable way to admit defeat was suicide
<DWROB> they respect the soul, not the body
<DWROB> yes
<he> ah ha
<lambda> they think it is better they chose when to die than their enemy
<rho5> the soul lives on
<gamma> this was honorable
<DWROB> lambda: yes
<DWROB> a question of priorities
<iota> easier to escape than to be shameful
<dalet> if you have been taught all your life suicide is honorable, it is easy
<DWROB> I have always found the bravery of the completely defeated Heike quite moving -- I like this story a lot
<iota> yes
<delta> I liked it as well
<sigma> so if they respect the soul and not the body, then why would it have mattered that Atsumori looked young?
<DWROB> Good question
<bet> i respect that
<DWROB> why is the Atsumori episode worth writing a whole play about?
<DWROB> It's just one of many episodes.
<bet> it is a moving story
<delta> it was noble
<aleph> because it was so different than the normal response that should have come from a warrior
<sigma> good question!\
<DWROB> Not the most exciting like, say, the assault down the mountainside on Ichinotani
<chi> because it is still hard to kill someone that looks like they could be your son
<DWROB> chi: yes, it plays on natural human sympathy
<he> shows an odd situation to learn from
<DWROB> Kumagai sees Atsumori as similar to his own son
<yod> the human element has been in every story thus far
<gamma> a boy so young was willing to sacrifice his life so that he wouldn't leave the flute behind
<gamma> hang on to your flute
<chi> exactly
<sigma> it depicted one of the descent souls and his effort to achieve a greater afterlife
<sigma> oh, that makes sense
<rho5> illusion of the mind
<kappa> It would be extremely odd to kill someone similar to your own child
<beta> impossible even
<DWROB> That si a great scene when Kumagai, this tough old soldier, weeps for Atsumori
<delta> I did not think of it like that
<DWROB> why is he weeping?
<bet> hes so sad to kill this young guy
<delta> he was sad to kill him
<mu> he was young
<aleph> because he does not have a choice but to kill him
<vav> he is sorry for killing him
<iota> grief
<kappa> He knows it was the only way for Atsumori to come closer to enlightenment
<DWROB> he didn't weep before; he did him a favor by giving him a clean fast death
<omicron> he wants to save him
<iota> guilt
<rho5> he then prays for his soul
<DWROB> No, he weeps after, when he and the others find the flute
<iota> he knew that A was a young man
<iota> he didn't want to
<chi> war makes people do things that cant be explained
<he> then they knew who he was and who is father was
<dalet> he could tell he was a noble young man.
<aleph> was music something considered enlightened?\
<chi> he knows who the boy was
<gamma> he knows what he had to do but didn't like it
<delta> he knew he was special to go back after all that and get a
<delta> flute
<DWROB> what did the music seem to stand for?
<omicron> the flute mad him see that A's soul was good
<bet> hes sorry, maybe he knows hes just returning to get his flute
<chi> they had listened to his flute playing the night before
<DWROB> yes
<eta> he had to do it though ... Atsumori would have been killed by the advancing soldiers
<DWROB> yes
<iota> but he really had no choice in doing so
<DWROB> and yet they regret the necessity -- it is sad. And the music is beautiful, and a sign of something that isn't war.
<aleph> it reminds them of peach and enlightenment
<DWROB> Something they hold in high regard -- aristocratic, noble
<DWROB> peace, too
<bet> he killed the music_the day the music died ... ..very sad
<DWROB> :-)
<DWROB> so why does Kumagai become a priest?
<chi> but being noble is not part of the spirit
<mu> start over
<aleph> to make up for killing
<omicron> he wants forgiveness
<DWROB> yes it is!
<psi> to spend his life praying for his soul
<rho5> rebirth
<lambda> to escape war
<gamma> because of his remorse for his actions
<he> he wants to start over
<kappa> forgiveness
<bet> I think it is b/c he is repenting as a monk
<DWROB> who wants forgiveness?
<psi> forgiveness
<vav> to pray for A's soul
<chi> to spend all his time praying for Atsumori's Soul
<aleph> he wants to reach enlightenment - and help the person he killed
<rho5> the soul
<bet> Rensho
<epsilon> because he feels bad for kill him and wants to be free of sins
<eta> Kumagai
<DWROB> why does he need to pray for A?
<psi> to pray for A's soul
<mu> to balance
<psi> he told A that he would pray for his soul
<DWROB> yes
<psi> he was just carrying though
<DWROB> why?
<bet> for his soul to pass on in death
<iota> he wants to repent and be forgiven
<aleph> he doesn't need to, but he does because this is what he feels he should do
<omicron> so his soul will forgive him
<psi> because he knew it was wrong to kill him
<psi> but he had to
<chi> Rensho's soul
<DWROB> repent? did K do something bad?
<delta> for his soul to pass on
<dalet> he thought of becoming a monk after killing him
<mu> to not leave any unturned stones
<DWROB> was it wrong to kill him?
<aleph> in his own mind he did
<epsilon> to be forgiven
<psi> yes
<iota> and pray for his A
<iota> for A's soul
<kaf> Yes
<he> no that is war
<psi> or at least in his mind
<delta> in this sense no
<epsilon> he wants to know he has no burden of sin
<DWROB> correct -- it was war, and duty
<bet> no, but he still feels bad
<kappa> yes, but if he didn't others would
<psi> but in war it is expected and someone would have killed him
<DWROB> it was not a sin to kill him
<vav> no..it gave A honor
<DWROB> it was sad, but not evil
<mu> A would of did it
<chi> no but he still wants to make peace with the soul
<gamma> in his eyes yes but he had no choice
<he> If he dies in war he dies nobly
<delta> it allowed A to free his spirit
<psi> A did die honorably
<DWROB> Rensho is not trying to work off guilt!
<aleph> it somehow changed Rensho
<he> with honor
<mu> if he was in the position
<bet> we have to do things we do not want to do sometimes
<DWROB> He treated Atsumori as a son and friend (strange though that sounds)
<psi> he is just trying to pray for his soul
<aleph> he started to see things differently
<iota> i don't know
<he> after he had been killed
<DWROB> OK, what is the issue with A's soul that need sprayer?
<DWROB> prayer
<psi> when he killed him that was the first time they met
<kappa> enlightenment, nirvana
<aleph> he never had a chance to reach a certain point in his life for nirvana
<psi> he needs to be reborn again
<bet> doesn't his soul need to pass
<DWROB> good -- explain
<rho5> the family worships ancestors
<delta> reborn
<vav> he has a lot to be forgiven for
<DWROB> who does?
<delta> he needs the proper deliverance
<bet> so he can live again in another body
<psi> he committed a lot of sins
<DWROB> who needs to be forgiven?
<lambda> he has many things he needs to be forgiven of
<he> The path of self improvement
<chi> why did the villager say that they would kill Rensho if he came to the village if Atsumori had died honorably?
<omicron> A
<psi> A does
<delta> A
<vav> A
<DWROB> not quite
<aleph> to revenge A's death
<psi> both of them
<DWROB> revenge is precisely what he doesn't need
<psi> repent
<rho5> they need to reconcile
<DWROB> no, no -- one of them is messed up -- and it's not Rensho
<chi> no one
<he> not forgiveness self improvement
<aleph> to make things even
<DWROB> What prevents A from achieving peace and release?
<bet> atsu is pissed
<DWROB> yes!
<aleph> he is angry at Rensho
<kaf> A is still angry
<DWROB> yes! yes!
<DWROB> that's the problem
<rho5> that's why they need to reconcile
<bet> I would be to if someone killed me
<chi> A because he valued a trivial possession, his flute
<DWROB> A must forgive K and accept his friendship
<aleph> he needs to forgive Rensho to achieve Nirvana - get rid of attachments
<DWROB> exactly
<delta> interesting'
<he> very
<bet> A doesn't understand why yet
<DWROB> including attachments to personal desire, such as revenge
<DWROB> right
<chi> ow
<kaf> He puts down the sword after he drew it on K. A wants to forgive but it is hard
<kappa> A still has issues and attachments
<DWROB> And so he must learn, and Rensho prays that he will
<DWROB> He almost doesn't
<rho5> even in death attachments must not be
<DWROB> the soul is not dead
<aleph> when he goes to kill Rensho, he realizes that he have forgiven him - to kill him would make him worse
<kappa> soul is eternal?
<DWROB> right
<bet> but then he does , yeah!
<beta> but he does, and that's the point, right?
<DWROB> eternal, yes
<DWROB> does what?
<iota> he doesn't
<he> They have friendship eternally
<beta> reconciles w/ R
<bet> forgives releases anger
<DWROB> they do reconcile, at the last moment.
<DWROB> The play is structured in an interesting way -- the main episode gets retold three times -- why?
<aleph> to make sure everyone gets the point
<beta> make a point I guess
<kappa> emphasize importance?
<bet> to reiterate
<he> emphasis
<kaf> To give the different views
<chi> different views
<delta> to reiterate the importance
<chi> to add more detail
<eta> yes different perspectives.. and importance
<gamma> emphasize the sincerity
<DWROB> each telling is more moving than the last, which is good for the drama --
<DWROB> then there is the culminating reenactment of battle with a new outcome this time
<epsilon> emphasis
<delta> I agree
<DWROB> But here is an analogy ... .
<he> more dancing and singing
<DWROB> has anybody ever seen Bill Murray in Groundhog Day?
<beta> yep
<bet> yep
<rho5> yes
<lambda> yes
<eta> yes
<aleph> nope
<delta> yea'
<kaf> Yes
<he> yeah
<vav> yes
<mu> yep
<beta> love the movie
<kappa> yes
<chi> yes
<epsilon> yes
<gamma> yep
<rho5> it gets better each time
<beta> yep
<kaf> Get it right eventually
<DWROB> It's a good movie, and believe it or not, it is often taught in courses on Buddhism
<rho5> for bill murray
<delta> similar huh
<iota> of course
<beta> seriously?
<DWROB> Do you see the Buddhist take?
<lambda> you do it until it is done right
<mu> it keeps happening until he gets it right
<DWROB> dead serious
<beta> now I do
<DWROB> right!
<he> tells the same story many times until the end
<sigma> its a wonderful movie
<eta> keep doing it over and over till everything is perfect
<bet> yes, the better he does day to day he will move on
<he> it changes after he has learned
<gamma> he is trapped
<DWROB> he is stuck reliving his life (a day of it, at least) until he gets the damn thing right!
<vav> good point
<epsilon> repeat till its right
<kappa> interesting connection
<rho5> that is neat
<sigma> yes of course
<DWROB> he is trapped in Samsara
<iota> oh yes one of my favs
<iota> oh really
<iota> why do you think
<he> sounds familiar
<epsilon> yep
<beta> that is a great analogy
<iota> until it becomes the way that he wants it to be?
<DWROB> and first he changes his actions, and finally he changes his attitude
<DWROB> no longer wishing to be free
<dalet> makes sense now
<DWROB> and then he is free
<iota> ok i think i now know
<chi> reincarnation
<bet> he gets it right when he releases frustration and anger
<epsilon> oh i see
<rho5> true
<kaf> mental development
<DWROB> I laughed when I read about that reading of the movie, but it works.
<he> he had to clear his mind
<omicron> so he has to change his actions and feelings
<he> i can see it
<gamma> ok
<omicron> not just his actions
<iota> me too
<DWROB> his mind was full of nonsense and garbage and deluded desire
<DWROB> it takes many lives to purge it and achieve enlightenment
<iota> yes
<he> wish that was the same for all of us
<DWROB> heh
<DWROB> not too late!
<chi> yes he had to get past just wanting to get laid
<DWROB> that too!
<sigma> its never too late
<DWROB> to ... oh, never mind
<rho5> its not all about"I"
<iota> yes xxxx
<DWROB> Questions?
<bet> no
<vav> no
<sigma> unless you die before putting forth the effort to make a change
<iota> none at all'
<delta> when do we have to complete the test
<sigma> yes xxxx :-)
<epsilon> nope
<gamma> nope
<sigma> nnnnnnnooooo
<dalet> no
<lambda> I'm good
<aleph> this was an easier reading to understand
<sigma> by Saturday
<dalet> by sat at 6pm?
<chi> how do we look at past chat?
<DWROB> I will try to turn it off at the scheduled time Saturday, but I may have to leave it on until I'm back Sunday Midnight. Don't count on it.
<eta> can you actually do that?
<iota> i think so too
<iota> its do on Saturday
<delta> okay thanks
<DWROB> do what?
<sigma> yeah me too
<eta> look at past chats
<chi> How can I look back at Chats?
<eta> refer to them
<delta> yes
<DWROB> yes, there is a link to them form my home page
<DWROB> look in the navbar
<eta> oh wow that helps a lot
<DWROB> it's a dreadful mess to look at, but there they are
<he> n
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<delta> can we go
<chi> is it a jumbled together
<DWROB> yes, we are done
<kaf> Mine comes up as gibberish
<sigma> yes what a mess it truly is
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<DWROB> it is one monster file
<DWROB> ugly
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<iota> oh ok
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<iota> yea
<eta> later
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<chi> when I looked it didn't look like all the chats it just looked like one
<DWROB> it updates every 30 minutes
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<KENNY4> Are we talking here or in your office?
<DWROB> can you open a private channel?
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<DWROB> hey!
<DWROB> where did you go??
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