Chat: ENGL 2111 (World Literature I) Winter 2005

Chat 11: Atsumori


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[19:45] <upsilon> The test opens tomorrow right

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[19:52] <beta> that's what the website says

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[19:59] <omega> g

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[20:01] #2111web: mode change '+o DWROB' by Socrates!~Socrates@

[20:02] <DWROB> Thank you, Socrates

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[20:03] <chi> Is there something wrong with the quizzes, because my last one isn't graded and This weeks is still locked?

[20:03] <DWROB> This week's is not locked.

[20:04] <iota> so we get the test tomorrow

[20:04] <chi> i checked it an hour ago and it was still locked

[20:04] <vav> mine was not

[20:04] <kappa> are you sure you read the right title

[20:04] <psi> your clicking on the wrong one

[20:04] <DWROB> We are doing Atsumori this week, per the syllabus

[20:04] <omega> mine neither

[20:04] <psi> you have to click the next one over

[20:04] <vav> the one that is locked is Korean and 1001 knights, which we have not read yet

[20:04] <DWROB> Koran is skipped -- not on syllabus

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[20:05] <chi> oh

[20:05] <vav> right

[20:05] <DWROB> exam will go live tonight -- I am leaving in the morning for NYC and I'll have to open it beforehand

[20:05] <upsilon> ok

[20:05] <bet> for vacation?

[20:05] <dalet> what do we read next

[20:05] <beta> same format as last time??

[20:05] <vav> what time tonight

[20:05] <DWROB> Dante, as per the syllabus

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[20:05] <DWROB> before midnight

[20:06] <chi> i feel special

[20:06] <DWROB> Let's talk about general matters first -- did you read the Buddhist material I mentioned and linked to?

[20:06] <he> yes

[20:06] <kaf> yes

[20:06] <kappa> yes

[20:06] <aleph> yes, it helped with the reading

[20:06] <delta> yes

[20:06] <beta> yep

[20:06] <he> It helped with the discussion

[20:06] <omicron> yup

[20:06] <vav> yes

[20:06] <dalet> no. where is it

[20:06] <rho5> yes

[20:06] <bet> it made things more understandable

[20:06] <DWROB> Does everybody/anybody have a grip on Hinduism vs. Buddhism?

[20:06] <lambda> yes

[20:07] <gamma> yes

[20:07] <aleph> sort of

[20:07] <rho5> yes

[20:07] <dalet> somewhat

[20:07] <chi> yes

[20:07] <lambda> sort of

[20:07] <bet> yes

[20:07] <sigma> yes

[20:07] <kappa> somewhat

[20:07] <beta> kinda

[20:07] <DWROB> OK, what were the key concept in Hinduism?

[20:07] <sigma> somewhat

[20:07] <iota> somewhat

[20:07] <DWROB> key concepts

[20:07] <aleph> doing good in this life got you a better next life

[20:07] <gamma> kind of

[20:07] <DWROB> what you need to know

[20:07] <omega> yeah

[20:07] <omega> kind of

[20:08] <DWROB> OK -- next life -- reincarnation -- samsara, the cycle of rebirth

[20:08] <bet> reincarnation and karma

[20:08] <delta> karma?

[20:08] <chi> enlightenment

[20:08] <DWROB> and Karma, the moral condition of your soul ... it literally means "cause and effect"

[20:08] <aleph> dharma - duty

[20:08] <omega> every thing builds up to your reincarnation or rebirth

[20:08] <iota> yes karma

[20:08] <beta> and dharma too

[20:08] <DWROB> dharma, good -- duty

[20:08] <bet> the better you are in the present the better life you will have in the future

[20:08] <rho5> what happen on earth affect the after life

[20:08] <DWROB> what you must do for good karma, so to speak

[20:08] <gamma> sounds simple enough

[20:09] <sigma> how you live your present life predicts your future lives

[20:09] <kappa> good now, better life later

[20:09] <DWROB> ALSO -- the physical world is fleeting, an illusion. Only the spiritual is real and permanent

[20:09] <rho5> be the best you can be

[20:09] <bet> karma is basically ;do unto others

[20:09] <he> live life well now to be rewarded later

[20:09] <DWROB> Thus Arjuna needed to do his duty and not worry about physical death

[20:09] <eta> you get what's coming

[20:09] <rho5> true

[20:09] <DWROB> physicality is an illusion -- all should live forever

[20:09] <DWROB> all souls

[20:10] <DWROB> perpetually reborn

[20:10] <dalet> like Christianity

[20:10] <vav> somewhat

[20:10] <sigma> it is the opposite to most of us-the physical world is what is real to us and the spiritual world is more or less an illusion

[20:10] <bet> until enlightenment

[20:10] <DWROB> Christianity doesn't have samsara!

[20:10] <dalet> i mean the soul is forever

[20:10] <DWROB> sigma: indeed; Socrates takes a similar position on what's real

[20:10] <bet> no reincarnation either

[20:10] <DWROB> The real Socrates :-P

[20:11] <DWROB> Now, what does Buddhism say to all this?

[20:11] <he> suffer

[20:11] <beta> eventually you will reach nirvana

[20:11] <eta> eventually ...

[20:11] <DWROB> not necessarily

[20:11] <aleph> suffering is part of life and leads to not having to suffer and reach nirvana

[20:11] <eta> oh

[20:11] <sigma> some parallels

[20:11] <kaf> suffering is inevitable

[20:11] <lambda> you work towards nirvana

[20:11] <delta> path to suffrage

[20:11] <DWROB> yes -- inevitable, and also illusory, because it is grounded in the physical, and in desire

[20:12] <kappa> suffering is necessary to get to nirvana, you must rid yourself of desires

[20:12] <DWROB> desire of the physical and of the self, both unreal

[20:12] <iota> somewhat alike

[20:12] <dalet> we talked about this in the bhag ghita

[20:12] <gamma> you must accept and deal with the good and the bad equally

[20:12] <sigma> is it easier to fulfill dharma or to reach nirvana?

[20:12] <bet> true, you have to release all self desire

[20:12] <DWROB> Buddhism is to Hinduism as Christianity is to Judaism -- it is a religion of personal salvation

[20:12] <chi> your main goal is to reach enlightenment

[20:12] <DWROB> escape from Samsara is possible through religious attitudes and rites.

[20:13] <DWROB> escape == end of rebirth == Nirvana == death

[20:13] <iota> you must suffer to eventually reach spirituality

[20:13] <iota> and you must sin and repent

[20:13] <rho5> in that order?

[20:13] <DWROB> So ...

[20:13] <DWROB>

[20:13] <DWROB> The Four Noble Truths

[20:13] <DWROB> 1. Life means suffering.

[20:13] <DWROB> 2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

[20:13] <DWROB> 3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

[20:13] <DWROB> 4. The path to the cessation of suffering.

[20:13] <DWROB>

[20:13] <aleph> so you reach nirvana before death and then die?\

[20:13] <DWROB> attachment means desire

[20:13] <DWROB> the extinction of desire ends suffering

[20:14] <DWROB> The path to extinguishing is ... . the 8-fold path ...

[20:14] <DWROB>

[20:14] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:14] <lambda> so wanting less brings closer to nirvana

[20:14] <chi> that is why monks have no attachments

[20:14] <DWROB> 1. Right View

[20:14] <DWROB> 2. Right Intention

[20:14] <DWROB> 3. Right Speech

[20:14] <DWROB> 4. Right Action

[20:14] <DWROB> 5. Right Livelihood

[20:14] <rho5> let go of all desires?

[20:14] <DWROB> 6. Right Effort

[20:14] <DWROB> 7. Right Mindfulness

[20:14] <DWROB> 8. Right Concentration

[20:14] <DWROB>

[20:14] <DWROB> yes -- and Do Right (see above)

[20:14] <he> k

[20:14] <DWROB> not dramatically different form the 10 commandments

[20:14] <DWROB> a code for living

[20:14] <sigma> so it is better not to form attachments then?

[20:15] <DWROB> not attachments to unreal things

[20:15] <DWROB> money, possessions,

[20:15] <DWROB> etc.

[20:15] <DWROB> life

[20:15] <dalet> Buddhist monks never marry or have children like christian monks?

[20:15] <DWROB> in the physical world, that is

[20:15] <sigma> Although, the ten commandments are more specific

[20:15] <DWROB> that's right

[20:15] <kaf> Right, why be attached if they aren't real

[20:15] <chi> what about love?

[20:15] <iota> yes

[20:15] <DWROB> oh, well, the 8 are fully elucidated in the Buddhist scriptures

[20:15] <eta> you cant take any of it with you anyways

[20:15] <bet> it seems like this religion is more of a state of mind

[20:16] <DWROB> love is implied but not specified

[20:16] <dalet> love is too personal i guess

[20:16] <beta> love is just another attachment

[20:16] <sigma> oh, okay

[20:16] <DWROB> Also, the concept of the gods is not central or necessary

[20:16] <kappa> attachments are bad to Buddhists

[20:16] <rho5> but attachments to natural things, like spirits and ghost

[20:16] <DWROB> beta: not love in Jesus' sense

[20:16] <sigma> everybody needs to love and be loved though

[20:16] <chi> but soul mates and reincarnation kinda go together

[20:16] <vav> why?

[20:16] <beta> no, according to Buddhist belief

[20:17] <aleph> so what part does Buddha play? Just the first person to reach Nirvana?

[20:17] <DWROB> Jesus saw love implied by the law; he would have had no problem with Buddhist ethics either

[20:17] <dalet> Buddhism seems to focus on a lot of self control

[20:17] <DWROB> aleph: a Buddha is someone who has achieved enlightenment. We can all do this by following the 8-fold path

[20:17] <chi> more like self discipline

[20:17] <bet> is Buddha just someone Buddhists look up to?

[20:17] <DWROB> yes -- very important

[20:17] <delta> solitary comes to mind

[20:18] <kappa> They must discipline themselves fairly strictly then

[20:18] <rho5> control over ones mind and soul

[20:18] <DWROB> Gautama Buddha is not an object of worship, but he is venerated

[20:18] <sigma> and enlightenment is reached before becoming a Buddha?

[20:18] <gamma> an example for them to follow

[20:18] <lambda> he is what people try to be then?

[20:18] <iota> love comes with an attachment

[20:18] <DWROB> OK, what does all of this have to o with, say, the Heike?

[20:18] <aleph> how is he not worshiped if people have statues of him?

[20:18] <dalet> makes better sense

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[20:19] <dalet> Atsumori

[20:19] <DWROB> We have a statue of a Confederate soldier on the courthouse square but few people worship it

[20:19] <aleph> they are trying to achieve enlightenment / nirvana letting go of attachments

[20:19] <DWROB> how so?

[20:19] <kappa> They weren't really striving for this, not with their actions

[20:19] <rho5> he is a symbol

[20:19] <bet> respect and memory

[20:19] <chi> what is the Heike?

[20:19] <DWROB> what is the Heike about?

[20:19] <aleph> they change their name - very important in lots of cultures

[20:20] <dalet> how the powerful became the footstool

[20:20] <eta> well, Kumagai changes his name to Rensho and gave up his old life

[20:20] <DWROB> OK -- pride and sin going before a fall, certainly

[20:20] <kappa> went from power to nothing

[20:20] <mu> they change their name for a new way of life

[20:20] <DWROB> The Kiyomori is one evil guy

[20:20] <DWROB> I like his toasty deathbed scene.

[20:20] <delta> very evil

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[20:20] <vav> he burns for it

[20:20] <he> sly

[20:20] <kappa> If he wasn't so evil they may have stood a better chance against the Genji

[20:20] <dalet> Heike has to do w/karma

[20:21] <iota> spirituality

[20:21] <chi> it was awesome

[20:21] <DWROB> Sort of how I imagine Richard Nixon's deathbed scene

[20:21] <dalet> oooh

[20:21] <bet> ? how so

[20:21] <dalet> fire!!!

[20:21] <sigma> definitely

[20:21] <DWROB> So why is this a story about a bunch of losers in this civil war? Why do we care about them?

[20:21] <dalet> could you imagine such a death, as if descending into hell

[20:21] <DWROB> Why not a story about the winners (there is one, of course ... )?

[20:22] <aleph> it still teaches a lesson

[20:22] <bet> because Rensho had to make a choice out of two bad options

[20:22] <dalet> to see both sides of the story i guess. to prove a point about karma

[20:22] <beta> b/c its tragic

[20:22] <DWROB> hold off on Rensho

[20:22] <bet> ok

[20:22] <DWROB> tragic?

[20:22] <kappa> Tells of honor, I suppose

[20:22] <KENNY4> They suffered

[20:22] <DWROB> explain how there is tragedy

[20:22] <he> because this is a story bout karma

[20:22] <eta> cause and effect

[20:22] <delta> because they were most powerful then least powerful

[20:22] <omicron> in a way it is

[20:22] <gamma> duty

[20:22] <bet> It has qualities of death but not completely

[20:22] <lambda> shows the extreme fall

[20:23] <chi> because winning or losing is trivial, but the way you live after is important

[20:23] <aleph> it has an ending that is not happy

[20:23] <sigma> the losers give examples of either what not to do or how to go about making a change

[20:23] <sigma> very tragic

[20:23] <DWROB> Are the Heike worse people than the Genji?

[20:23] <bet> no real tragic flaw

[20:23] <mu> remorse

[20:23] <chi> people were doing things they knew to be wrong

[20:23] <delta> no remorse

[20:23] <DWROB> some were

[20:23] <aleph> they are the same in the end

[20:23] <he> how can you tell

[20:23] <theta> the chief character suffered a devastating fate

[20:23] <DWROB> Are the rank and file Heike people worse?

[20:23] <dalet> the Heike and Genji have evil people

[20:23] <sigma> they parallel one another

[20:23] <DWROB> yes, the boss was a bad guy

[20:23] <bet> wasn't there leader a lot worse

[20:23] <chi> no they just happened to win

[20:24] <sigma> yes

[20:24] <kappa> One bad person can spoil the entire group

[20:24] <DWROB> they are all just people, and the Heike are paying the price for their leader's misrule

[20:24] <chi> it doesn't matter because in the end they will all be the same

[20:24] <DWROB> and their own comfortable period in power

[20:24] <omicron> he is giving the rest of them a bad name

[20:24] <DWROB> Yes -- good -- all the same -- meaning what?

[20:24] <bet> all souls

[20:24] <DWROB> the souls live on, but ...

[20:25] <bet> their rank in life is the same

[20:25] <chi> things are getting balanced out

[20:25] <eta> all will be reborn again as equals ... Rensho and Atsumori would be brothers

[20:25] <DWROB> everything else in the world passes away

[20:25] <DWROB> all is illusory, evanescent

[20:25] <delta> they go back to being the same as in the beginning

[20:25] <DWROB> the power of the Heike, their earthly lives

[20:25] <he> you have to be reborn a good person

[20:25] <bet> all is fleeting

[20:25] <aleph> sort of like fate?

[20:25] <DWROB> everything passes -- that's the main theme -- the mood is very solemn, elegiac

[20:26] <chi> winning or losing doesn't affect your soul

[20:26] <DWROB> it is fate, yes

[20:26] <kappa> yes

[20:26] <psi> fate

[20:26] <chi> that is why praying for peoples souls is so important

[20:26] <iota> right'

[20:26] <iota> meaning that everything balances out in the end

[20:26] <lambda> how you acted while alive is more important

[20:26] <DWROB> In Jodo Buddhism it is, as in Atsumori

[20:26] <psi> so everything evens out

[20:26] <gamma> fate once again

[20:26] <DWROB> So in the face of certain defeat, what do the Heike do?

[20:26] <sigma> correct

[20:26] <bet> flee

[20:26] <rho5> run

[20:26] <dalet> they scram

[20:26] <kaf> flee

[20:27] <psi> they hit the sea

[20:27] <he> run away

[20:27] <mu> run

[20:27] <delta> flee

[20:27] <psi> and flee

[20:27] <kappa> flee for their life

[20:27] <gamma> run

[20:27] <beta> high tale it

[20:27] <DWROB> are do they act?

[20:27] <DWROB> how do they act?

[20:27] <DWROB> are they admirable or not?

[20:27] <bet> defeated

[20:27] <eta> dishonorable?

[20:27] <sigma> get out

[20:27] <delta> prideful

[20:27] <psi> very solemn

[20:27] <dalet> not admirable

[20:27] <rho5> no

[20:27] <DWROB> No?

[20:27] <mu> dishonored

[20:27] <dalet> cowardly

[20:27] <aleph> honor should have made them stay

[20:27] <psi> like cowards

[20:27] <DWROB> didn't you feel sympathy for them?

[20:27] <psi> nope

[20:27] <dalet> somewhat

[20:27] <delta> I did

[20:27] <DWROB> some were cowards, some defected

[20:27] <chi> sail away

[20:27] <eta> like cowards ...

[20:27] <bet> not really

[20:27] <he> yeah they were defeated

[20:27] <DWROB> but some were loyal to the end

[20:27] <mu> nope

[20:28] <psi> they had there time to rule

[20:28] <kappa> not really

[20:28] <gamma> very dishonorable

[20:28] <vav> not really

[20:28] <bet> like the samurai

[20:28] <psi> they imploded not exploded

[20:28] <DWROB> they are not all dishonored

[20:28] <kappa> most acted without honor

[20:28] <DWROB> dishonored

[20:28] <kaf> scattered

[20:28] <sigma> in a panic

[20:28] <lambda> so not everybody is the same

[20:28] <iota> no

[20:28] <psi> most are dishonored

[20:28] <rho5> like the Japanese in WWII

[20:28] <sigma> majority were not though and that shows the mood of the group

[20:28] <chi> they had no real chance to survive under the circumstances

[20:28] <DWROB> yes -- many or most do their duty, remain loyal, preserve their honor

[20:28] <delta> some of them just did what they had to do

[20:28] <he> the actions of a few and the leader will reflect on the group as a whole

[20:28] <bet> the ones that were brave and stayed till death were honored

[20:28] <psi> and die fighting

[20:28] <DWROB> Yes -- honorable death

[20:28] <chi> those who fought to the death were honorable?

[20:28] <DWROB> suicide also

[20:28] <aleph> so it doesn't matter what the masses did, it's what you did yourself in the end

[20:28] <DWROB> absioolutely

[20:29] <DWROB> right!

[20:29] <lambda> was that the honorable thing for the time period

[20:29] <psi> so if you die honorably then your soul is safe

[20:29] <eta> fighting or taking your own life

[20:29] <DWROB> Suicide is a way to escape the dishonor of defeat

[20:29] <dalet> suicide was honorable like kamikaze

[20:29] <DWROB> It is a statement of disregard for fleeting things

[20:29] <bet> like being a kamikaze was honorable

[20:29] <kappa> yeah

[20:29] <iota> they trie to do what was honorable and brave

[20:29] <he> the easy way out

[20:29] <beta> didn't we talk about that in another story?

[20:29] <rho5> not to be taken by the enemy

[20:29] <aleph> suicide was honorable only in certain situations - like war

[20:29] <iota> an easy way out

[20:30] <vav> yes

[20:30] <DWROB> the kamikaze stuff is rotted in this outlook, clearly

[20:30] <DWROB> rooted

[20:30] <sigma> personally it doesn't matter what the masses did, but it does show how the norm behaved

[20:30] <DWROB> no, not the easy way out

[20:30] <DWROB> cowardice is the easy way out

[20:30] <DWROB> begging for mercy, cutting a deal

[20:30] <chi> they had no respect for life

[20:30] <dalet> i was gonna say, what do u mean by rotted

[20:30] <bet> suicide is not exactly easy ... . i would assume

[20:30] <DWROB> they die with dignity in battle or by their own hands

[20:30] <eta> much easier to run away than fall on your sword

[20:30] <rho5> being taken by your enemy is cowardly

[20:30] <kappa> The honorable way to admit defeat was suicide

[20:30] <DWROB> they respect the soul, not the body

[20:30] <DWROB> yes

[20:30] <he> ah ha

[20:30] <lambda> they think it is better they chose when to die than their enemy

[20:30] <rho5> the soul lives on

[20:31] <gamma> this was honorable

[20:31] <DWROB> lambda: yes

[20:31] <DWROB> a question of priorities

[20:31] <iota> easier to escape than to be shameful

[20:31] <dalet> if you have been taught all your life suicide is honorable, it is easy

[20:31] <DWROB> I have always found the bravery of the completely defeated Heike quite moving -- I like this story a lot

[20:31] <iota> yes

[20:31] <delta> I liked it as well

[20:31] <sigma> so if they respect the soul and not the body, then why would it have mattered that Atsumori looked young?

[20:31] <DWROB> Good question

[20:32] <bet> i respect that

[20:32] <DWROB> why is the Atsumori episode worth writing a whole play about?

[20:32] <DWROB> It's just one of many episodes.

[20:32] <bet> it is a moving story

[20:32] <delta> it was noble

[20:32] <aleph> because it was so different than the normal response that should have come from a warrior

[20:32] <sigma> good question!\

[20:32] <DWROB> Not the most exciting like, say, the assault down the mountainside on Ichinotani

[20:32] <chi> because it is still hard to kill someone that looks like they could be your son

[20:33] <DWROB> chi: yes, it plays on natural human sympathy

[20:33] <he> shows an odd situation to learn from

[20:33] <DWROB> Kumagai sees Atsumori as similar to his own son

[20:33] <yod> the human element has been in every story thus far

[20:33] <gamma> a boy so young was willing to sacrifice his life so that he wouldn't leave the flute behind

[20:33] <gamma> hang on to your flute

[20:33] <chi> exactly

[20:33] <sigma> it depicted one of the descent souls and his effort to achieve a greater afterlife

[20:33] <sigma> oh, that makes sense

[20:33] <rho5> illusion of the mind

[20:33] <kappa> It would be extremely odd to kill someone similar to your own child

[20:33] <beta> impossible even

[20:33] <DWROB> That si a great scene when Kumagai, this tough old soldier, weeps for Atsumori

[20:34] <delta> I did not think of it like that

[20:34] <DWROB> why is he weeping?

[20:34] <bet> hes so sad to kill this young guy

[20:34] <delta> he was sad to kill him

[20:34] <mu> he was young

[20:34] <aleph> because he does not have a choice but to kill him

[20:34] <vav> he is sorry for killing him

[20:34] <iota> grief

[20:34] <kappa> He knows it was the only way for Atsumori to come closer to enlightenment

[20:34] <DWROB> he didn't weep before; he did him a favor by giving him a clean fast death

[20:34] <omicron> he wants to save him

[20:34] <iota> guilt

[20:34] <rho5> he then prays for his soul

[20:34] <DWROB> No, he weeps after, when he and the others find the flute

[20:34] <iota> he knew that A was a young man

[20:35] <iota> he didn't want to

[20:35] <chi> war makes people do things that cant be explained

[20:35] <he> then they knew who he was and who is father was

[20:35] <dalet> he could tell he was a noble young man.

[20:35] <aleph> was music something considered enlightened?\

[20:35] <chi> he knows who the boy was

[20:35] <gamma> he knows what he had to do but didn't like it

[20:35] <delta> he knew he was special to go back after all that and get a

[20:35] <delta> flute

[20:35] <DWROB> what did the music seem to stand for?

[20:35] <omicron> the flute mad him see that A's soul was good

[20:35] <bet> hes sorry, maybe he knows hes just returning to get his flute

[20:35] <chi> they had listened to his flute playing the night before

[20:35] <DWROB> yes

[20:35] <eta> he had to do it though ... Atsumori would have been killed by the advancing soldiers

[20:35] <DWROB> yes

[20:36] <iota> but he really had no choice in doing so

[20:36] <DWROB> and yet they regret the necessity -- it is sad. And the music is beautiful, and a sign of something that isn't war.

[20:36] <aleph> it reminds them of peach and enlightenment

[20:36] <DWROB> Something they hold in high regard -- aristocratic, noble

[20:36] <DWROB> peace, too

[20:36] <bet> he killed the music_the day the music died ... ..very sad

[20:36] <DWROB> :-)

[20:36] <DWROB> so why does Kumagai become a priest?

[20:37] <chi> but being noble is not part of the spirit

[20:37] <mu> start over

[20:37] <aleph> to make up for killing

[20:37] <omicron> he wants forgiveness

[20:37] <DWROB> yes it is!

[20:37] <psi> to spend his life praying for his soul

[20:37] <rho5> rebirth

[20:37] <lambda> to escape war

[20:37] <gamma> because of his remorse for his actions

[20:37] <he> he wants to start over

[20:37] <kappa> forgiveness

[20:37] <bet> I think it is b/c he is repenting as a monk

[20:37] <DWROB> who wants forgiveness?

[20:37] <psi> forgiveness

[20:37] <vav> to pray for A's soul

[20:37] <chi> to spend all his time praying for Atsumori's Soul

[20:37] <aleph> he wants to reach enlightenment - and help the person he killed

[20:37] <rho5> the soul

[20:37] <bet> Rensho

[20:37] <epsilon> because he feels bad for kill him and wants to be free of sins

[20:37] <eta> Kumagai

[20:37] <DWROB> why does he need to pray for A?

[20:37] <psi> to pray for A's soul

[20:37] <mu> to balance

[20:37] <psi> he told A that he would pray for his soul

[20:37] <DWROB> yes

[20:37] <psi> he was just carrying though

[20:37] <DWROB> why?

[20:37] <bet> for his soul to pass on in death

[20:37] <iota> he wants to repent and be forgiven

[20:38] <aleph> he doesn't need to, but he does because this is what he feels he should do

[20:38] <omicron> so his soul will forgive him

[20:38] <psi> because he knew it was wrong to kill him

[20:38] <psi> but he had to

[20:38] <chi> Rensho's soul

[20:38] <DWROB> repent? did K do something bad?

[20:38] <delta> for his soul to pass on

[20:38] <dalet> he thought of becoming a monk after killing him

[20:38] <mu> to not leave any unturned stones

[20:38] <DWROB> was it wrong to kill him?

[20:38] <aleph> in his own mind he did

[20:38] <epsilon> to be forgiven

[20:38] <psi> yes

[20:38] <iota> and pray for his A

[20:38] <iota> for A's soul

[20:38] <kaf> Yes

[20:38] <he> no that is war

[20:38] <psi> or at least in his mind

[20:38] <delta> in this sense no

[20:38] <epsilon> he wants to know he has no burden of sin

[20:38] <DWROB> correct -- it was war, and duty

[20:38] <bet> no, but he still feels bad

[20:38] <kappa> yes, but if he didn't others would

[20:38] <psi> but in war it is expected and someone would have killed him

[20:38] <DWROB> it was not a sin to kill him

[20:38] <vav> gave A honor

[20:38] <DWROB> it was sad, but not evil

[20:38] <mu> A would of did it

[20:38] <chi> no but he still wants to make peace with the soul

[20:39] <gamma> in his eyes yes but he had no choice

[20:39] <he> If he dies in war he dies nobly

[20:39] <delta> it allowed A to free his spirit

[20:39] <psi> A did die honorably

[20:39] <DWROB> Rensho is not trying to work off guilt!

[20:39] <aleph> it somehow changed Rensho

[20:39] <he> with honor

[20:39] <mu> if he was in the position

[20:39] <bet> we have to do things we do not want to do sometimes

[20:39] <DWROB> He treated Atsumori as a son and friend (strange though that sounds)

[20:39] <psi> he is just trying to pray for his soul

[20:39] <aleph> he started to see things differently

[20:39] <iota> i don't know

[20:39] <he> after he had been killed

[20:39] <DWROB> OK, what is the issue with A's soul that need sprayer?

[20:39] <DWROB> prayer

[20:39] <psi> when he killed him that was the first time they met

[20:40] <kappa> enlightenment, nirvana

[20:40] <aleph> he never had a chance to reach a certain point in his life for nirvana

[20:40] <psi> he needs to be reborn again

[20:40] <bet> doesn't his soul need to pass

[20:40] <DWROB> good -- explain

[20:40] <rho5> the family worships ancestors

[20:40] <delta> reborn

[20:40] <vav> he has a lot to be forgiven for

[20:40] <DWROB> who does?

[20:40] <delta> he needs the proper deliverance

[20:40] <bet> so he can live again in another body

[20:40] <psi> he committed a lot of sins

[20:40] <DWROB> who needs to be forgiven?

[20:40] <lambda> he has many things he needs to be forgiven of

[20:40] <he> The path of self improvement

[20:40] <chi> why did the villager say that they would kill Rensho if he came to the village if Atsumori had died honorably?

[20:40] <omicron> A

[20:40] <psi> A does

[20:40] <delta> A

[20:40] <vav> A

[20:40] <DWROB> not quite

[20:40] <aleph> to revenge A's death

[20:41] <psi> both of them

[20:41] <DWROB> revenge is precisely what he doesn't need

[20:41] <psi> repent

[20:41] <rho5> they need to reconcile

[20:41] <DWROB> no, no -- one of them is messed up -- and it's not Rensho

[20:41] <chi> no one

[20:41] <he> not forgiveness self improvement

[20:41] <aleph> to make things even

[20:41] <DWROB> What prevents A from achieving peace and release?

[20:41] <bet> atsu is pissed

[20:41] <DWROB> yes!

[20:41] <aleph> he is angry at Rensho

[20:41] <kaf> A is still angry

[20:41] <DWROB> yes! yes!

[20:41] <DWROB> that's the problem

[20:41] <rho5> that's why they need to reconcile

[20:42] <bet> I would be to if someone killed me

[20:42] <chi> A because he valued a trivial possession, his flute

[20:42] <DWROB> A must forgive K and accept his friendship

[20:42] <aleph> he needs to forgive Rensho to achieve Nirvana - get rid of attachments

[20:42] <DWROB> exactly

[20:42] <delta> interesting'

[20:42] <he> very

[20:42] <bet> A doesn't understand why yet

[20:42] <DWROB> including attachments to personal desire, such as revenge

[20:42] <DWROB> right

[20:42] <chi> ow

[20:42] <kaf> He puts down the sword after he drew it on K. A wants to forgive but it is hard

[20:42] <kappa> A still has issues and attachments

[20:42] <DWROB> And so he must learn, and Rensho prays that he will

[20:42] <DWROB> He almost doesn't

[20:42] <rho5> even in death attachments must not be

[20:43] <DWROB> the soul is not dead

[20:43] <aleph> when he goes to kill Rensho, he realizes that he have forgiven him - to kill him would make him worse

[20:43] <kappa> soul is eternal?

[20:43] <DWROB> right

[20:43] <bet> but then he does , yeah!

[20:43] <beta> but he does, and that's the point, right?

[20:43] <DWROB> eternal, yes

[20:43] <DWROB> does what?

[20:43] <iota> he doesn't

[20:43] <he> They have friendship eternally

[20:43] <beta> reconciles w/ R

[20:43] <bet> forgives releases anger

[20:43] <DWROB> they do reconcile, at the last moment.

[20:44] <DWROB> The play is structured in an interesting way -- the main episode gets retold three times -- why?

[20:44] <aleph> to make sure everyone gets the point

[20:44] <beta> make a point I guess

[20:44] <kappa> emphasize importance?

[20:44] <bet> to reiterate

[20:44] <he> emphasis

[20:44] <kaf> To give the different views

[20:44] <chi> different views

[20:44] <delta> to reiterate the importance

[20:44] <chi> to add more detail

[20:44] <eta> yes different perspectives.. and importance

[20:45] <gamma> emphasize the sincerity

[20:45] <DWROB> each telling is more moving than the last, which is good for the drama --

[20:45] <DWROB> then there is the culminating reenactment of battle with a new outcome this time

[20:45] <epsilon> emphasis

[20:45] <delta> I agree

[20:45] <DWROB> But here is an analogy ... .

[20:45] <he> more dancing and singing

[20:45] <DWROB> has anybody ever seen Bill Murray in Groundhog Day?

[20:45] <beta> yep

[20:45] <bet> yep

[20:45] <rho5> yes

[20:45] <lambda> yes

[20:45] <eta> yes

[20:45] <aleph> nope

[20:46] <delta> yea'

[20:46] <kaf> Yes

[20:46] <he> yeah

[20:46] <vav> yes

[20:46] <mu> yep

[20:46] <beta> love the movie

[20:46] <kappa> yes

[20:46] <chi> yes

[20:46] <epsilon> yes

[20:46] <gamma> yep

[20:46] <rho5> it gets better each time

[20:46] <beta> yep

[20:46] <kaf> Get it right eventually

[20:46] <DWROB> It's a good movie, and believe it or not, it is often taught in courses on Buddhism

[20:46] <rho5> for bill murray

[20:46] <delta> similar huh

[20:46] <iota> of course

[20:46] <beta> seriously?

[20:46] <DWROB> Do you see the Buddhist take?

[20:46] <lambda> you do it until it is done right

[20:46] <mu> it keeps happening until he gets it right

[20:46] <DWROB> dead serious

[20:46] <beta> now I do

[20:46] <DWROB> right!

[20:46] <he> tells the same story many times until the end

[20:46] <sigma> its a wonderful movie

[20:46] <eta> keep doing it over and over till everything is perfect

[20:46] <bet> yes, the better he does day to day he will move on

[20:46] <he> it changes after he has learned

[20:46] <gamma> he is trapped

[20:47] <DWROB> he is stuck reliving his life (a day of it, at least) until he gets the damn thing right!

[20:47] <vav> good point

[20:47] <epsilon> repeat till its right

[20:47] <kappa> interesting connection

[20:47] <rho5> that is neat

[20:47] <sigma> yes of course

[20:47] <DWROB> he is trapped in Samsara

[20:47] <iota> oh yes one of my favs

[20:47] <iota> oh really

[20:47] <iota> why do you think

[20:47] <he> sounds familiar

[20:47] <epsilon> yep

[20:47] <beta> that is a great analogy

[20:47] <iota> until it becomes the way that he wants it to be?

[20:47] <DWROB> and first he changes his actions, and finally he changes his attitude

[20:47] <DWROB> no longer wishing to be free

[20:47] <dalet> makes sense now

[20:47] <DWROB> and then he is free

[20:47] <iota> ok i think i now know

[20:47] <chi> reincarnation

[20:47] <bet> he gets it right when he releases frustration and anger

[20:47] <epsilon> oh i see

[20:47] <rho5> true

[20:47] <kaf> mental development

[20:47] <DWROB> I laughed when I read about that reading of the movie, but it works.

[20:47] <he> he had to clear his mind

[20:48] <omicron> so he has to change his actions and feelings

[20:48] <he> i can see it

[20:48] <gamma> ok

[20:48] <omicron> not just his actions

[20:48] <iota> me too

[20:48] <DWROB> his mind was full of nonsense and garbage and deluded desire

[20:48] <DWROB> it takes many lives to purge it and achieve enlightenment

[20:48] <iota> yes

[20:48] <he> wish that was the same for all of us

[20:48] <DWROB> heh

[20:48] <DWROB> not too late!

[20:48] <chi> yes he had to get past just wanting to get laid

[20:48] <DWROB> that too!

[20:49] <sigma> its never too late

[20:49] <DWROB> to ... oh, never mind

[20:49] <rho5> its not all about"I"

[20:49] <iota> yes xxxx

[20:49] <DWROB> Questions?

[20:49] <bet> no

[20:49] <vav> no

[20:49] <sigma> unless you die before putting forth the effort to make a change

[20:49] <iota> none at all'

[20:49] <delta> when do we have to complete the test

[20:49] <sigma> yes xxxx :-)

[20:49] <epsilon> nope

[20:49] <gamma> nope

[20:49] <sigma> nnnnnnnooooo

[20:49] <dalet> no

[20:49] <lambda> I'm good

[20:49] <aleph> this was an easier reading to understand

[20:49] <sigma> by Saturday

[20:50] <dalet> by sat at 6pm?

[20:50] <chi> how do we look at past chat?

[20:50] <DWROB> I will try to turn it off at the scheduled time Saturday, but I may have to leave it on until I'm back Sunday Midnight. Don't count on it.

[20:50] <eta> can you actually do that?

[20:50] <iota> i think so too

[20:50] <iota> its do on Saturday

[20:50] <delta> okay thanks

[20:50] <DWROB> do what?

[20:50] <sigma> yeah me too

[20:50] <eta> look at past chats

[20:50] <chi> How can I look back at Chats?

[20:50] <eta> refer to them

[20:51] <delta> yes

[20:51] <DWROB> yes, there is a link to them form my home page

[20:51] <DWROB> look in the navbar

[20:51] <eta> oh wow that helps a lot

[20:51] <DWROB> it's a dreadful mess to look at, but there they are

[20:51] <he> n

[20:51] dalet ( left #2111web.

[20:51] <delta> can we go

[20:51] <chi> is it a jumbled together

[20:51] <DWROB> yes, we are done

[20:51] <kaf> Mine comes up as gibberish

[20:51] <sigma> yes what a mess it truly is

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[20:51] <DWROB> it is one monster file

[20:51] <DWROB> ugly

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[20:52] <iota> oh ok

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[20:52] <iota> yea

[20:52] <eta> later

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[20:52] <chi> when I looked it didn't look like all the chats it just looked like one

[20:52] <DWROB> it updates every 30 minutes

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[20:53] <KENNY4> Are we talking here or in your office?

[20:53] <DWROB> can you open a private channel?

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[21:00] <DWROB> hey!

[21:00] <DWROB> where did you go??

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