Chat: ENGL 2111 (World Literature I) Winter 2005

Chat 12: The Inferno

Dante, The Inferno

[00:00] --- Thu Mar 31 2005

[00:00] --- Fri Apr 1 2005

[00:00] --- Sat Apr 2 2005

[00:00] --- Sun Apr 3 2005

[00:00] --- Mon Apr 4 2005

[00:00] --- Tue Apr 5 2005

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[15:35] #2111web: mode change '+o DWROB' by Socrates!~Socrates@

[20:02] Topic changed on #2111web by DWROB!DWROB@ Dante

[00:00] --- Wed Apr 6 2005

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[11:44] <theta> DWROB, are you there?

[11:45] <DWROB> virtually

[11:45] <theta> awesome ... well, I got online this morning to check my test grade ... and ... none of my answers were there ... I just wanted to know if you got my test or not.

[11:45] <DWROB> If they aren't on the site, they weren't received by the server.

[11:46] <DWROB> Do you have the text of the answers backed up somewhere?

[11:46] <theta> well, **** ... what do i need to do?

[11:46] <theta> no, unfortunately not. but i can answer them again if need be

[11:46] <DWROB> resubmit and watch out for the various warnings about incremental submissions, backing up, etc.

[11:46] <DWROB> I will have to re-open the exam for you

[11:46] <theta> ok ... thank you.

[11:47] <DWROB> I will do it now. When will you be done?

[11:47] <theta> i can msg u on here once i am thru

[11:47] <theta> shouldn't take too long

[11:48] <DWROB> It's ready -- tell me when you are done

[12:07] <theta> ok ... i'm done

[12:07] <theta> hopefully you got it that time

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[19:56] <KENNY> Hi, all. I'm leading the chat again tonight.

[19:57] <bet> hey KENNY

[19:57] <beta> cool

[19:57] <KENNY> We'll wait a couple of more minutes for more people to show.

[19:57] <vav> ok, sounds great.

[19:57] <rho> great

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[19:59] <beta> is dr. rob here and observing?

[19:59] <KENNY> yes

[19:59] <vav> Not a lot of people her

[19:59] <beta> oh ok

[19:59] <vav> e at the moment

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[20:00] <beta> was there a forum assign for today?

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[20:00] <vav> I did not see one.

[20:00] <eta> i didn't either

[20:00] <beta> me either

[20:00] <chi> i didn't see one either

[20:00] <KENNY> I don't think so.

[20:00] <eta> ok good ... . we are all not he same page here

[20:01] <beta> good - i thought I was the only one

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[20:02] <KENNY> Ok. Let's start.

[20:02] <chi> k

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[20:02] <KENNY> Divine Comedy is an allegory

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[20:03] <vav> what is an allegory?

[20:03] <rho> and epic poem and fantasy

[20:03] <KENNY> Symbolic work where the characters, events, rep other deeper spiritual, moral, political things.

[20:03] <vav> thanks

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[20:04] <beta> its good that we read some of those other stories

[20:04] <KENNY> *Points to KENNY's last lines

[20:04] <delta> this seemed like a build up of other stories

[20:04] <beta> DC wouldn't have made much sense w/o that background

[20:04] <beta> (i.e. characters, etc)

[20:05] <vav> He uses three to signify a lot of things.

[20:05] <KENNY> This poem is foremost, symbolic of each Christian's spiritual journey through life

[20:05] <beta> definitely

[20:05] <bet> like when Dante returned from the afterlife on Easter like Jesus

[20:05] <delta> I liked the on line version better

[20:05] <beta> and how Judas suffers the most

[20:05] <vav> He finds himself lost ...

[20:05] <omega> it was a nice story that had a lot of parodies involved\

[20:05] <KENNY> In Canto 1 Dante's in a spiritual crisis of sorts

[20:05] <KENNY> Good

[20:05] <KENNY> That's evidence of the poem as allegory

[20:06] <chi> Judas, and Caesar's killers

[20:07] <KENNY> What other evidence of three's is there?

[20:07] <KENNY> xxxx: Can you give us more examples of the use of three?

[20:07] <vav> Lucifer

[20:07] <vav> the layout of Hell

[20:07] <chi> three people in Satan's three heads

[20:07] <omega> he fell from heaven real hard

[20:07] <vav> and Purgatory

[20:07] <delta> purgatory also came in three

[20:07] <rho> purgatory

[20:07] <omicron> three stages

[20:08] <bet> 3 days

[20:08] <beta> three canticles

[20:08] <kaf> Dante is 30

[20:08] <pi> yeah i can understand Judas being there but why were Caesar's killers considered ;two of the worst sinners in history

[20:08] <beta> *canticles

[20:08] <omicron> hell purgatory and heaven

[20:08] <phi> purgatory

[20:08] <beta> terza rima

[20:08] <omega> they where just as guilty of betrayal

[20:08] <KENNY> They betrayed their benefactors

[20:08] <chi> secret plotting against your friends

[20:08] <tau> Caesar and Rome were supposed to rule the world ... so it was important at the time

[20:08] <beta> =rhyming scheme of three

[20:09] <KENNY> xxxx: Yes--the rhyme

[20:09] <chi> ah

[20:09] <lambda> that's why they are in the final ring then

[20:09] <KENNY> Also each canticle has 33 cantos

[20:09] <vav> why the use of threes

[20:09] <omega> yep

[20:09] <delta> also 33 cantos

[20:09] <eta> three has always been the number to use

[20:10] <kappa> three is everywhere in this work

[20:10] <tau> is 3 supposed to symbolize hell, earth, and heaven?

[20:10] <vav> 3 ladies of heaven

[20:10] <KENNY> Because it alludes to the Trinity

[20:10] <chi> 3 has always been a mystical number Shakespeare used it a lot

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[20:10] <tau> oh ok

[20:10] <kappa> father son and holy ghost?

[20:10] <bet> father son holy spirit

[20:10] <delta> trinity

[20:10] <vav> ok

[20:10] <chi> yes

[20:10] <beta> the trinity

[20:10] <KENNY> Cool. xxxx: I had forgotten about there being 3 heavenly women

[20:10] <KENNY> Beatrice, Mary, St. Lucia

[20:11] <KENNY> So Dante is on this journey

[20:11] <chi> ?

[20:11] <KENNY> Dante was influenced a lot by Virgil so he is Dante's guide

[20:11] <vav> he is also scared.

[20:12] <vav> frightened

[20:12] <aleph> Isn't Virgil dead when he leads Dante through the underworld?

[20:12] <kappa> yes

[20:12] <eta> yes

[20:12] <tau> yes

[20:12] <psi> yes

[20:12] <vav> yes

[20:12] <rho> yes

[20:12] <bet> yes

[20:12] <KENNY> Dante's journey symbolizes each Christian's Spiritual Journey for attaining salvation, leading a Christian Life.

[20:12] <beta> heaven

[20:12] <KENNY> Only Dante is alive

[20:12] <aleph> each stage in purgatory was a cleansing process

[20:12] <rho> the punished one trouble his journey

[20:13] <chi> have to pass all the sins

[20:13] <psi> it was an experience

[20:13] <bet> he experienced all sin and saw punishments for them it must have been enlightening

[20:14] <KENNY> What does the Divine Comedy say about man's relationship with God?

[20:14] <beta> quite an experience

[20:14] <KENNY> and Satan's relationship with God, for that matter

[20:14] <rho> ones earthly life determines his afterlife

[20:14] <lambda> they are connected through how one acts

[20:14] <bet> Satan was thrown down into hell

[20:14] <chi> that he is there to punish

[20:14] <delta> there is more to it than you think

[20:14] <vav> it says that god rules in heaven but governs in hell

[20:14] <tau> fright? intimidated?

[20:14] <eta> Satan was at the bottom and god was at the top ...

[20:14] <eta> the very bottom

[20:14] <omega> he fell hard thus why he is in the position he in

[20:15] <vav> also fear God

[20:15] <eta> so their relationships are distant

[20:15] <delta> yes fear God

[20:15] <omicron> he is stuck at the place he fell at

[20:15] <kappa> God is almighty, nothing above him

[20:15] <beta> man should love God - like He loves us

[20:15] <bet> god cares greatly how you treat others

[20:15] <KENNY> xxxx: Good

[20:15] <kappa> if you do something against God you will face severe punishment

[20:16] <KENNY> Satan's worst pain is he being separated from God, the one farthest from Him.

[20:16] <pi> i would guess that Satan would have a larger role in hell, he was just another loser in one of the layers of hell not like the ruler

[20:16] <delta> didn

[20:16] <omicron> it was strange that he was at the very bottom of hell

[20:17] <KENNY> He only has power over men on Earth

[20:17] <KENNY> God has ultimate control

[20:17] <delta> didn't Satan know he was going to be separated

[20:17] <rho> not the heavens

[20:17] <beta> but he was flapping his wings to make the ice harder

[20:17] <bet> over everything

[20:17] <beta> that gives the impression of some power/control

[20:17] <kappa> God does obviously have the most power

[20:18] <KENNY> Page 1940

[20:18] <beta> yep

[20:18] <KENNY> Ayer: What makes you think say Satan has some power/ control?

[20:18] <vav> what verse

[20:18] <KENNY> This is the description of Satan

[20:19] <bet> evil is a contradictory of gods will

[20:19] <beta> how he flaps his wings to make the ice harder

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[20:19] <bet> he persuades us to do evil and he does not feer god

[20:20] <KENNY> Wilk: starts line 28 or so

[20:20] <bet> or he did not in heaven

[20:20] <chi> he's trapped just likeallthe other sinners

[20:20] <eta> was he trepped int he ice as well?

[20:20] <tau> yes

[20:20] <KENNY> He flaps his wings to keep the freezing air away from him

[20:21] <tau> i thought he was waist high in ice?

[20:21] <KENNY> From Chest Down

[20:21] <bet> he is still being punished along with the other souls

[20:21] <chi> me too

[20:21] <omega> upsidedown

[20:21] <KENNY> And in doing so he makes it colder for all other sinners

[20:22] <KENNY> The emperor of the despondent kingdom so towered

[20:22] <omega> chest deep where he broke through the ground

[20:22] <lambda> so he only has control over the sinners?

[20:22] <KENNY> --from midchest--above the ice

[20:22] <tau> i find it interesting how lucifer is crying

[20:22] <KENNY> xxxx: Limited Control it appears

[20:22] <aleph> he doesn't want to be there

[20:22] <eta> yeah.. he is not tis powerful guardian of hell like we usually see/hear about

[20:23] <KENNY> With whatever he does he only causes more misery for others

[20:23] <chi> he is always portrayed as happy to be ruling hell

[20:23] <beta> ok thank you for the clarification

[20:23] <bet> he is selfish

[20:23] <delta> was he crying because he didn't want to be there?

[20:23] <pi> he is suffering just like everyone else there

[20:23] <bet> he is the opposite of god

[20:23] <rho> that's his purpose

[20:23] <aleph> why does Dante create this hell so different from what we normally think? Was this written before the common thought of hell fire began?

[20:23] <KENNY> How else is his portrayal unusual?

[20:24] <chi> so he enjoys causing others pain?

[20:24] <bet> he is ugly

[20:24] <delta> three faces

[20:24] <bet> the bible says he is a beautiful angel

[20:24] <omicron> the colors of his heads

[20:24] <tau> he used to be as handsome as he is ugly now

[20:24] <beta> six eyes

[20:24] <rho> lucifer as a monster

[20:24] <aleph> his tears are bloody

[20:24] <delta> Dante says he was once handsome as well

[20:24] <beta> gnashing teeth

[20:25] <tau> how did he get so ugly and weird?

[20:25] <tau> just a punishment or something?

[20:25] <psi> because of the sins he committed

[20:25] <chi> he bites

[20:25] <psi> they have wore him down

[20:25] <bet> in Greek writings he is a god

[20:25] <eta> you cant have a pretty guy running the bad place

[20:25] <omega> love? heart break?

[20:25] <KENNY> I guess it was part of God's punishment for him

[20:25] <delta> Dante says at times his back was stripped of hide?

[20:25] <kappa> everything is punishment

[20:25] <KENNY> line 34..

[20:26] <psi> ok

[20:26] <KENNY> "If he was once as handsome as he now is ugly and, despite that,

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[20:27] <beta> part of his punishment is becoming ugly

[20:27] <bet> can you put the passage in like DWROB? no book present

[20:27] <rho> he was vain

[20:27] <KENNY> raised his brows against his maker, one can understand how every sorrow has it's source in him!"

[20:27] <KENNY> Don't know how to do that

[20:27] <bet> ok thanx anyways

[20:27] <KENNY> I'll give the exact lines and you can write them down and look at them later

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[20:28] <bet> thanx

[20:28] <KENNY> 34-37

[20:28] <KENNY> Canto 34

[20:28] <KENNY> Inferno

[20:29] <KENNY> So even Satan has his turned towards God, even though he hates him

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[20:29] <KENNY> God is the key to everything

[20:29] <aleph> because God controls everything he experiences

[20:29] <chi> he was beautiful when he questioned god and that is why he is the source of suffering?

[20:29] <KENNY> Sinners salvation, heaven, hell, and purgatory

[20:29] <rho> can Satan repent?

[20:29] <chi> don't think so

[20:29] <KENNY> apparently

[20:29] <yod> don't think so

[20:30] <KENNY> Lind: It's probably too late for Satan

[20:30] <beta> can you explain that KENNY?

[20:30] <delta> too late

[20:30] <KENNY> I think he had his chance

[20:30] <bet> already condemned

[20:30] <omicron> and he passed it up

[20:30] <psi> he missed it

[20:30] <mu> i agree

[20:30] <vav> Going back to the earlier mention of Judas Iscariot, Cassius, and Brutus, Lucifer's rebellion against God is the epitome of betrayal.

[20:30] <KENNY> Ayer: Explain what? Why it's too late for Satan?

[20:30] <aleph> I thought God is supposed to be forever forgiving.

[20:31] <omicron> you only get so many chances

[20:31] <tau> if Satan did repent, then what would happen to hell?

[20:32] <rho> do the laws of earth not apply to heaven?

[20:32] <beta> why he has turned to God even though he hates him?

[20:32] <KENNY> As Dante goes further on his journey, it get's darker and colder, but as he nears Purgatory and Paradise it gets lighter

[20:32] <vav> chiaroscuro

[20:32] <pi> once you're condemned to hell your pretty much stuck there there are no chances after your in hell

[20:32] <KENNY> Lind: Dante's geography is based on the Medieval person's conception of the world

[20:33] <rho> thanks

[20:33] <bet> light represents holiness dark=evil

[20:33] <chi> and he has to ascend a mountain instead of going down to the center of the earth

[20:33] <KENNY> And conception of the structure of heaven, hell, and purgatory

[20:33] <delta> cold/evil light/heaven i agree

[20:34] <vav> The images of darkness and light, is that called chiaroscuro?

[20:34] <KENNY> Yes, so as he repents and gets closer to God, there is more light/hope

[20:34] <aleph> Is Dante repenting?

[20:34] <vav> also light of God

[20:34] <delta> sins are purged through purgatory ?

[20:34] <KENNY> Hmmm ... Do you know Dr. Rob?

[20:34] <KENNY> Wilk's Question

[20:34] <omicron> isn't the voyage trying to get him to repent?

[20:35] <chi> why were the beasts blocking his path in the beginning?

[20:35] <KENNY> In Purgatory, yes

[20:35] <KENNY> The person repents and is purged of their sins

[20:35] <eta> either repent or teach hum some lesson

[20:35] <delta> so then they reach heaven/paradise ?

[20:35] <KENNY> Beasts represent temptations he was facing

[20:35] <chi> oh

[20:36] <bet> you would think it would be women

[20:36] <KENNY> Leopard=Fraud

[20:36] <KENNY> Lion=Violence

[20:36] <bet> like the sirens

[20:36] <KENNY> She-Wolf=immoderation

[20:36] <pi> purgatory is a place to purge your soul so you can be made clean for heaven, but hell has to opportunity for cleansing, you're screwed once you get there

[20:36] <KENNY> Which have corresponding labels in the rings of hell

[20:37] <KENNY> Those in Hell are not Christian

[20:37] <KENNY> Denied Christ

[20:37] <delta> Are the "7 deadly sins" in between ante-purgatory and earthly paradise???

[20:37] <vav> Or never knew Him

[20:37] <bet> 1st ring?

[20:37] <aleph> so you can be evil and christian and not go to hell?

[20:38] <KENNY> If you honestly repent

[20:38] <bet> god forgives all who repent

[20:38] <KENNY> As Dante progresses on his journey

[20:38] <KENNY> ...

[20:39] <vav> Could the threes then also allude to Christ on the cross? (penitence)

[20:39] <psi> ... .

[20:39] <KENNY> When he gets to Purgatory he is ready to purge himself

[20:39] <KENNY> yes

[20:39] <vav> One guy next to Him repented although he was to be crucified for his sins

[20:39] <psi> yes

[20:39] <KENNY> He realizes sin and his sins

[20:40] <KENNY> In a way, Purgatory acts as a mirror for Dante

[20:40] <KENNY> for his own sins

[20:40] <KENNY> page 1945

[20:40] <chi> forgiveness for his own sins

[20:40] <bet> he realizes the wrong in his life and he wants to change

[20:40] <eta> the purgatory part was pretty short wasn't it?

[20:40] <KENNY> lines 124-129

[20:41] <KENNY> Paraphrasing ...

[20:41] <KENNY> Virgil is instructed to clean Dante's cheeks

[20:41] <rho> this is Dante's attempt to find God

[20:41] <KENNY> When he does so, his natural color shows through

[20:41] <vav> Humiliation

[20:41] <bet> purification or baptism

[20:41] <KENNY> " ... the color that Inferno had concealed."

[20:42] <chi> in living color?

[20:42] <bet> true color?

[20:42] <aleph> that he was alive?

[20:42] <psi> he was alive

[20:42] <lambda> he is alive

[20:42] <KENNY> Once he is ready (anyone is ready) to repent and purge themselves of sin, ask for forgiveness

[20:42] <rho> he is dreaming. right?

[20:43] <delta> cleansed purified

[20:43] <KENNY> Be aware of sin so he can divorce himself from it

[20:43] <KENNY> Once he reaches the top of Mt. Purgatory, he eagerly jumps into the purging fire

[20:43] <eta> so why did Dante get to do this and no one else? what made him so special

[20:43] <eta> ?

[20:44] <KENNY> Because he wants to be with God

[20:44] <bet> the 1st step to recovery is admitting you have a problem

[20:44] <delta> hah

[20:44] <rho> faith in God

[20:44] <KENNY> DWROB: Do you know who commissioned Dante to write this?

[20:45] <KENNY> Circumstances under which it was written?

[20:45] <bet> catholic king

[20:45] <delta> how do we know this really happened

[20:45] <bet> lack in faith in Catholicism

[20:45] <bet> ?

[20:45] <DWROB> Can Grande della Scala

[20:45] <chi> who, after seeing hell, wouldn't choose to repent. The reason some people don't believe in god is the lake of prof. It is easy to believe if you have been thru hell

[20:45] <pi> this didn't happen its just a story

[20:45] <bet> english please

[20:46] <DWROB> that's the name ... a nobleman

[20:46] <tau> someone trying to scare people to act according to the laws ... ..who would want to spend eternity getting stabbed by monsters?

[20:46] <bet> hah just kidding

[20:46] <aleph> this is just another version of why people should be good and christian

[20:46] <omega> scare tactics?

[20:46] <omega> like Matthew

[20:47] <bet> motivation to do right

[20:47] <delta> I agree

[20:47] <aleph> everything that deals with God is to get people to be good and moral

[20:47] <beta> i agree w/ hall

[20:47] <chi> bah

[20:47] <delta> but it could have happened in his head

[20:47] <KENNY> It's safe to say this is the greatest allegory ever written.

[20:47] <KENNY> One of the greatest epics

[20:47] <bet> enjoyable read also

[20:47] <lambda> it is a good story as well

[20:48] <KENNY> That's why it's symbolic and not just literal

[20:48] <vav> Wasn't Chaucer inspired by Dante?

[20:48] <tau> the crude imagery makes up for its length

[20:48] <KENNY> Symbolizing the progression of people as they move through their spiritual walk with God

[20:48] <pi> when was this written?

[20:49] <tau> like 1300 or so

[20:49] <KENNY> Ok ... Paradiso

[20:49] <delta> I agree with the symbolism

[20:49] <vav> 1306-1321 i think

[20:49] <rho> 1314

[20:49] <KENNY> Beatrice takes over

[20:49] <KENNY> As Guide

[20:50] <omicron> after he crosses the river

[20:50] <bet> virgil was not allowed to pass with dante

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[20:50] <KENNY> Dante sees God

[20:51] <KENNY> And experiences the "fruits of his labors"

[20:51] <vav> illusion to Genesis

[20:51] <KENNY> THE REWARD for repentance and getting to Heaven

[20:52] <KENNY> Ultimately

[20:52] <bet> amen

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[20:52] <bet> are we done

[20:52] <KENNY> Also, his purging/repentance allows him to see with a purer sight

[20:52] <KENNY> more deeply

[20:53] <KENNY> Not Quite

[20:53] <bet> he realizes evil now that he has the holy spirit

[20:53] <KENNY> Also he sees the circles of light which are the Trinity

[20:53] <omicron> I get he is really glad to be out of Hell

[20:53] <rho> he has a better understanding of heaven and hell

[20:53] <omicron> hell

[20:53] <bet> or in other words a greater conscience

[20:54] <rho> seeing is believing

[20:54] <KENNY> Sees what Man is made in God's image means

[20:54] <psi> see is believing

[20:54] <eta> ahh

[20:54] <vav> Faith is a fine invention when men can see

[20:55] <KENNY> But he sees in the end B/C he realizes his sin and purges himself of it.

[20:55] <rho> yes

[20:55] <chi> yup

[20:55] <KENNY> Any Questions?

[20:56] <chi> no

[20:56] <KENNY> The descriptions of Satan and God are important, as are their relation to the rest of the poem

[20:56] <vav> Do you think that if he hadn't went through Hell, would he have repented?

[20:56] <KENNY> I doubt it

[20:56] <aleph> some people need to see the worst to change

[20:56] <omega> nope

[20:56] <bet> i think it helped him realize what was up

[20:57] <rho> if it was Gods will

[20:57] <lambda> it was like Scared Straight

[20:57] <KENNY> Adios

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[20:57] <KENNY> Canterbury Tales Next Week

[20:57] <vav> goodnight

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[20:58] <eta> later everyone..

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[20:58] <beta> see ya later!

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[20:59] <KENNY> Dr. Rob: Did you get my email?

[20:59] <DWROB> I did.

[20:59] <DWROB> why don't we meet tomorrow and I can go over the questions with you.

[21:00] <DWROB> Noon?

[21:00] <KENNY> What time?

[21:00] <KENNY> That works

[21:00] <DWROB> See you then

[21:00] <KENNY> In your office

[21:00] <DWROB> yes

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[21:00] <KENNY> ok

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