Chat: ENGL 2111 (World Literature I) Winter 2005

Chat 2: Epic of Gilgamesh

Epic of Gilgamesh

[00:00] --- Wed Jan 19 2005

[20:01] <DWROB> I am here, sorry I'm late

[20:01] <DWROB> Welcome everyone

[20:02] omega ( joined #2111web.

[20:02] <theta> hey

[20:02] <gamma> hello

[20:02] <kappa> Hello.

[20:02] <aleph> hello

[20:02] <lambda> hey

[20:02] <yod> top of the evening to you dr.

[20:02] <dalet7> Hi

[20:02] <beta> Hi dr. rob

[20:02] mu (~mu@ joined #2111web.

[20:02] <he> hello

[20:02] <DWROB> Well, what strikes you about Gilgamesh first?

[20:02] <xi> hello

[20:02] <omega> hey

[20:02] <mu> hello

[20:02] <DWROB> You have some background with the Sumerian stuff ...

[20:03] <DWROB> What stands out about this material

[20:03] <beta> took about 10 minutes to read each page

[20:03] <gamma> the similarities between the two stories

[20:03] <nu> very little prior to this

[20:03] <DWROB> heh

[20:03] <eta> the gods

[20:03] <DWROB> tell me about the gods

[20:03] <psi> what if we didn't do the forum

[20:03] <lambda> it was hard to follow

[20:03] <kappa> death of Enkidu

[20:03] <DWROB> what about them?

[20:03] <dalet7> polytheism, similarity to genesis

[20:03] <aleph> some of the gods were the same

[20:03] <nu> it was difficult to keep up with all of them

[20:03] <iota> His power

[20:03] <tau> they fight

[20:03] <phi> fonts too small

[20:03] <rho> That he is part god and human

[20:03] <DWROB> dalet7: exactly

[20:03] <psi> very hard to understand

[20:03] <gamma> each held there own important role

[20:03] <omega> it was very polytheistic to me

[20:03] <eta> power hungry ... look down to mortals

[20:03] <nu> they were mostly like the Greek gods

[20:04] <lambda> each had a sort of job to do

[20:04] <aleph> some of the gods are mentioned as being old

[20:04] <iota> they became like brothers after they hated each other

[20:04] <epsilon> they didn't like each other at first

[20:04] <DWROB> nu: all polytheistic systems resemble each other

[20:04] <phi> all the gods had something to do with the guy

[20:04] <nu> except they had a god for everything it seemed

[20:04] <DWROB> yes, for everything

[20:04] <chi> The way the characters died was strange to me, the writing implied that it was the fault of the gods when Enkidu died and then they don't really say how Gilgamesh died

[20:04] <he> Immortality is found in yourself

[20:04] <DWROB> Enkidu was cursed, Gilg. died of old age

[20:04] <beta> or on paper

[20:04] <dalet7> most have a god for everything

[20:04] <beta> like in the history books

[20:04] <tau> didn't Gilgamesh die of old age?

[20:04] <yod> sounded like Gilgamesh was quite the ladies man

[20:05] <DWROB> he: what do you mean?

[20:05] <he> I'm sure

[20:05] <DWROB> yod: at first, not later

[20:05] <chi> they gods controlled every aspect of their lives

[20:05] <DWROB> he rejects Ishtar, the love goddess, after all

[20:05] <psi> yes he died of old age

[20:05] <kappa> Gilgamesh changed according to the story

[20:05] <vav> why is this so similar to the bible?

[20:05] <kappa> he became a better leader

[20:05] <he> That he was searching for immortality like many people today search for a fountain of youth

[20:05] <DWROB> kappa: yes, and that change is the most unique aspect of this epic

[20:05] <mu> didn't Humbaba curse Enkidu

[20:05] <tau> loosing that plant actually made him a better man

[20:05] <iota> I didn't understand why if Enkidu died, Gilgamesh wanted to live forever

[20:05] <psi> yes he did

[20:06] <DWROB> tau: better how?

[20:06] <psi> right before he died

[20:06] <theta> i didn't understand that either ... was Gilgamesh afraid of death?

[20:06] <vav> He was now afraid of death

[20:06] <phi> she got mad about that

[20:06] <DWROB> theta: aren't you? It's a universal human fear

[20:06] <omega> way did he.. could not figure out

[20:06] <he> He wanted to be a god somewhat

[20:06] <psi> i guess your right

[20:06] <lambda> Gilg. changed as his relationship with Enkidu grew, and when Enkidu died, Gilg. became afraid of death

[20:06] <tau> it just seemed as though he realized he had to enjoy life because he was mortal

[20:06] <chi> they gods don't seem as realistic as the Greek gods, these stories are not primarily about them like some of the Greek myths

[20:06] <eta> well ... they first met because Enkidu wanted to overthrow Gilgamesh for taking a married mans wife to bed

[20:06] <beta> it says very plainly that Gil was afraid of death

[20:06] <psi> you would think if they were that close he wouldn't want to live with him

[20:06] <DWROB> Look how Gilg. starts out -- a typical epic hero, powerful, oversexed ...

[20:07] <psi> he doesn't end like that

[20:07] <DWROB> What changes him into a human being?

[20:07] <he> That is what the prob was

[20:07] <rho> This is Gilgamesh's tragic flaw

[20:07] <nu> Enkidu

[20:07] <he> Enki

[20:07] <mu> until he meets with Enkidu

[20:07] <phi> he said he was

[20:07] <theta> Enkidu's death

[20:07] <kappa> Enkidu

[20:07] <psi> all the things that happen

[20:07] <DWROB> Yes, the friendship first

[20:07] <psi> Enkidu's death

[20:07] <chi> Why did Gilgamesh risk death to try to find immortality, if he was so scared of death he wouldn't of left his house

[20:07] <omega> and he drops off very much from that

[20:07] <pi> the realization of mortality

[20:07] <tau> the fact he was going to die

[20:07] <dalet7> his feelings

[20:07] <vav> brothers

[20:07] <aleph> i think an important fact was that the animal kingdom rejected Enkidu when he kind of becomes a man

[20:07] <beta> having mortal feelings

[20:07] <gamma> His friends death

[20:07] <DWROB> and then the loss of the friendship, the death

[20:07] <sigma> he was grounded by Enkidu

[20:07] <eta> yes when Enkidu died

[20:07] <phi> Enkidu

[20:07] <gamma> and he was really Gilg',s only true friend

[20:07] <lambda> Enkidu's death

[20:07] <DWROB> Most epic heroes don't develop like this -- they are sort of unconscious

[20:08] <DWROB> But Gilg. agonizes, ponders, changes.

[20:08] <DWROB> He becomes wise

[20:08] <psi> then dies

[20:08] <he> With Enki's help

[20:08] <DWROB> then dies, like us

[20:08] <theta> Enkidu gave Gilgamesh his wisdom

[20:08] <aleph> isn't that the point of gaining wisdom?

[20:08] <chi> his fear of death makes him human

[20:08] <DWROB> he goes from epic hero to everyman figure

[20:08] <nu> it makes him more human

[20:08] <aleph> you grow

[20:08] <vav> like every human

[20:08] <rho> this was his human aspect

[20:08] <omega> he was a complex person and not so one sided

[20:08] <DWROB> yes

[20:08] <pi> it connects us with the hero

[20:08] <kappa> He accepted his human qualities

[20:08] <psi> he grows as a human as the story goes on

[20:08] <DWROB> more novelistic than epic -- very modern, really

[20:09] <omega> the drama play

[20:09] <tau> so his fatal flaw was his quest for immortality?

[20:09] <phi> wouldn't it have been better if he didn't get all this knowledge cuz then he wouldn't fear death

[20:09] <gamma> he finally accepted his own personal fate

[20:09] <DWROB> and yet it's more than 3000 years old from an utterly foreign culture

[20:09] <dalet7> dramatic

[20:09] <nu> aside from the grueling repetition

[20:09] <pi> human emotions and wisdom remain unchanged

[20:09] <DWROB> apparently

[20:09] <vav> was this written before or after the bible?

[20:09] <psi> well not to many people go on a quest for the fountain of youth nowadays

[20:09] <eta> waaayyy before

[20:09] <DWROB> yes, long before the Bible

[20:09] <tau> before the bible

[20:09] <he> way before

[20:10] <pi> 1000 years before?

[20:10] <DWROB> The was written down probably around 600 BC, much later

[20:10] <chi> it is amazing that something written that long ago still relates to life today

[20:10] <aleph> what is the time frame for the writing?

[20:10] <yod> is the flood mentioned supposed to be the same as in the Bible?

[20:10] <iota> before the bible

[20:10] <epsilon> way before

[20:10] <psi> way before

[20:10] <yod> ok..

[20:10] <aleph> probably the same story

[20:10] <chi> like the close friendships and the fear of death

[20:10] <DWROB> This epic has roots in Sumerian times, 4000 years ago,

[20:10] <rho> Yet, these stories are on and the same

[20:10] <tau> yes ... i believe so

[20:10] <omega> i thought it was AD\

[20:10] <DWROB> and it was written down about 1200 BC

[20:10] <beta> time-frame is in the front of the book

[20:10] <pi> Moses stole the stories from the Sumerians

[20:10] <omega> not BC

[20:10] <vav> so then why are the stories so similar?

[20:11] <aleph> most ancient civilizations had oral tradition.

[20:11] <DWROB> pi: stole is too strong; the stories were borrowed and modified

[20:11] <he> That was the way they told stories back then?

[20:11] <mu> The derived some stories from Gilgamesh

[20:11] <epsilon> is it in relation to the flood in the bible

[20:11] <tau> because the bible changed them around to fir their time

[20:11] <DWROB> Remember, the Babylonians were neighbors to the Hebrews ...

[20:11] <rho> like folk tales?

[20:11] <DWROB> They were the dominant society

[20:11] <pi> it was a teaching story that he also used when addressing the Hebrews

[20:11] <gamma> personal perception

[20:11] <mu> Such as the flood

[20:11] <omega> miss it

[20:11] <kappa> same events different views?

[20:11] <dalet7> most ancient civ. have story of great flood. right?

[20:11] <DWROB> It was like America's Hollywood movie industry -- everybody in the world sees and likes that stuff

[20:11] <mu> but in the bible it was 40 days and 40 nights but in Gilgamesh it was only seven days

[20:11] <phi> so its like that game telephone where u pass the phrase around the circle and at the end it is different than at the beginning

[20:11] <psi> not me

[20:11] <DWROB> Everybody knew this story

[20:12] <DWROB> you get the idea

[20:12] <vav> so we can gather that the bible is based on Gilgamesh

[20:12] <chi> So the Hebrews stole the flood story?

[20:12] <DWROB> Well, we can talk about the flood

[20:12] <iota> there were tons of floods back in the day

[20:12] <pi> its possible that the flood never happened but it was a popular story that many cultures used for their own teaching purposes

[20:12] <sigma> yes

[20:12] <DWROB> There are lots of flood myths out there, in many traditions

[20:12] <aleph> almost every ancient society has a story about a flood

[20:12] <tau> yes ... the flood in the bible is supposed to warn us not to sin a lot (or something like that)

[20:12] <omega> i don't think is was a bases for the bible

[20:12] <DWROB> But the story in the bible is very close in many details to the one here

[20:12] <psi> me either

[20:12] <vav> for 6 days and night

[20:12] <DWROB> there clearly is a common source

[20:12] <DWROB> or one is derived from the other

[20:12] <beta> all those "stories" about floods are parables

[20:12] <vav> instead of 40 days and nights

[20:13] <he> Do you think they are all talking about the same flood?

[20:13] <rho> which has the most details, Gilgamesh or the bible

[20:13] <gamma> the landing on a mountain the sending out of birds ... ..

[20:13] <DWROB> About that there's no doubt

[20:13] <epsilon> they are very similar

[20:13] <eta> so perhaps they are all talking about the same flood

[20:13] <chi> But this flood story also talks about releasing a bird (or 2) to find land after the flood

[20:13] <aleph> both stories show that the golds or God were upset with humans

[20:13] <kappa> is the different stories used to reinforce the religious beliefs of the time

[20:13] <theta> I've always heard something about a universal truth that every civilization is born with ... kinda like instinct ... that's why it shows up in so many religions, myths, etc.

[20:13] <DWROB> kappa: yes and no

[20:13] <omega> so is the Rig Veda

[20:13] <aleph> and that one family or person was warned and saved.

[20:13] <pi> both men released birds from their boats to tell if land had surfaced

[20:13] <DWROB> right, these are not coincidences, these details

[20:13] <DWROB> but on the other hand ...

[20:13] <DWROB> look at what's different

[20:14] <sigma> the floods were at different times though

[20:14] <psi> there is a lot of gaps within both

[20:14] <DWROB> Why does the Hebrew God destroy humanity?

[20:14] <lambda> amount of time the flood takes

[20:14] <eta> in Gilgamesh the man secretly found out about the flood. int eh bible, god warned Noah

[20:14] <dalet7> sin?

[20:14] <chi> there were more gods in this story

[20:14] <vav> sin

[20:14] <mu> for purity

[20:14] <tau> because everyone was sinning to much

[20:14] <yod> sin

[20:14] <theta> sin

[20:14] <nu> because humanity had become ripe with sin

[20:14] <DWROB> right

[20:14] <kappa> sin

[20:14] <gamma> sin

[20:14] <pi> because all of humanity is wicked except for Noah and his family who God preserves

[20:14] <sigma> they had become a mess

[20:14] <DWROB> So the story is a moral parable -- god hates and will destroy evil

[20:14] <chi> because of sins

[20:14] <epsilon> 40 days 40 nights 7 days

[20:14] <rho> humans were like virus

[20:14] <eta> yes

[20:14] <DWROB> and what happens after the flood in the Bible, does anybody remember?

[20:14] <theta> In Gilgamesh, the humans were annoying the gods ... too many of them ... that's why the flood was caused

[20:14] <phi> but Noah isn't going to toss a giraffe into the ocean and say find land, birds would be the only possibility

[20:14] <phi> sin

[20:15] <beta> the Hebrew God destroyed humanity for the same reason Enlil did

[20:15] <psi> that is what they considered

[20:15] aleph ( left irc: Quit

[20:15] <xi> sin

[20:15] aleph ( joined #2111web.

[20:15] <epsilon> ya

[20:15] <pi> God promises to never flood the world again

[20:15] <dalet7> after the flood, everything was restored

[20:15] <vav> a rainbow'

[20:15] <rho> Sacrifice

[20:15] <phi> no

[20:15] <DWROB> right! there is a covenant

[20:15] <eta> hm

[20:15] <DWROB> God and man strike a deal

[20:15] <yod> rainbow, promise of from God to not do it again

[20:15] <phi> sinning continued

[20:15] <theta> they released a raven to find land and in the Bible ... it was a dove

[20:15] <beta> the rainbow was a symbol of God's promise

[20:15] <he> Like everything being washed clean

[20:15] <mu> no flood no sin

[20:15] <he> Like for a Clean Start

[20:15] <DWROB> This is a central idea in Hebrew tradition -- the covenants that god and man make

[20:15] <DWROB> yes

[20:15] <DWROB> Now compare this to Gilg.

[20:15] <sigma> sinning will always continue

[20:16] <DWROB> Why to the gods do what they do

[20:16] <eta> well.. in Gilgamesh, the gods wanted to destroy all human life

[20:16] <DWROB> why?

[20:16] <beta> because they have the power to do whatever they please

[20:16] <aleph> they grow tired of hearing the humans

[20:16] <nu> because humanity had become to loud

[20:16] <vav> noise

[20:16] <DWROB> right, they can't sleep

[20:16] <rho> The gods were tired of the humans

[20:16] <mu> noisy

[20:16] <gamma> because mortals began to question them

[20:16] <pi> the gods decided to kill them all and Enlil flooded the land but Enki warned Uta because he had a bond with him

[20:16] <aleph> maybe they were complaining about the gods

[20:16] <kappa> because humans have caused to much uproar and couldn't sleep at night

[20:16] <tau> because humans are like servants to them ... they feel as though they can do what they want to the humans

[20:16] <DWROB> The humans are multiplying (i.e., having sex, etc.) and making a racket

[20:16] <chi> Enlil wanted to destroy them all but En felt differently

[20:16] <DWROB> the gods get fed up

[20:16] <phi> they wanted to kill everyone

[20:17] <mu> they were getting out of control

[20:17] <tau> humans become too loud

[20:17] <yod> tired of the riff raff

[20:17] <sigma> too loud

[20:17] <DWROB> Yes -- multiple gods

[20:17] <he> You will have a balanced tension with nature and civilization

[20:17] <DWROB> by the way ...

[20:17] <epsilon> they couldn't sleep anymore

[20:17] <psi> they kept the gods awake

[20:17] <DWROB> which arrangement makes more sense as plot --

[20:17] <iota> the gods wanted to get rid of humans b/c the gods couldn't sleep

[20:17] <nu> in Gilgamesh though the gods regretted flooding the Earth

[20:17] <DWROB> having multiple gods arguing, or just one god?

[20:17] <chi> they wanted to demonstrate their dominance

[20:17] <tau> the Hebrew one

[20:17] <sigma> the gods had wanted a smaller human population

[20:17] <psi> multiple

[20:17] <beta> One God

[20:17] <lambda> multiple

[20:17] <kappa> one

[20:17] <tau> one god

[20:17] <eta> just one

[20:17] <mu> so since Utnapishtim survived that's why they made him immortal

[20:17] <vav> multiple

[20:17] <gamma> one

[20:17] <aleph> multiple

[20:17] <dalet7> multiple

[20:17] <eta> well maybe that's what i am used to

[20:17] <yod> one nation under God

[20:18] <rho> So there was no lesson learned like the bible

[20:18] <theta> multiple gods arguing

[20:18] <DWROB> tau: really? but then you have to account for why God keeps changing his mind!

[20:18] <sigma> multiple

[20:18] <chi> the sinning

[20:18] <beta> that's right laws!

[20:18] <DWROB> If you have multiple gods, that's not a problem

[20:18] <vav> one god would not have been bothered as much as 20 would have

[20:18] <DWROB> vav: heh, maybe

[20:18] <aleph> what's not a problem

[20:18] <phi> one god

[20:18] <DWROB> one big noisy happy god family

[20:18] <tau> yeah ... i guess your right ... but multiple gods is an abstract concept for me

[20:18] <beta> its a huge problem b/c they won't always agree

[20:18] <he> but maybe more are needed to keep one in check

[20:18] <gamma> with one God there is an absolute power

[20:18] <omega> they could not control hum multitudes though

[20:18] <phi> its faster for one judge to be convinced to do something than a jury

[20:19] <rho> this reminds me of Stargate

[20:19] <DWROB> My point is , the original story had many gods; the Hebrew version changes that to fit it's own agenda. The story seems a little stretched, though

[20:19] <mu> u have conflict with each other

[20:19] <psi> since they created gods for everything they couldn't explain i guess they would need many gods

[20:19] <DWROB> Now --

[20:19] <omega> true

[20:19] <vav> not so much happy

[20:19] <DWROB> What is the moral lesson taught by the Gilg version of the flood story?

[20:19] <pi> the point is that both stories are ancient literature based on similar stories spread by word of mouth

[20:19] <psi> don't be too loud

[20:19] <aleph> be good and be quiet

[20:19] <tau> respect the gods?

[20:19] <nu> to not be noisy

[20:19] <he> Respect

[20:19] <vav> what moral?

[20:19] <sigma> don't sin

[20:19] <lambda> respect those above

[20:19] <rho> Take care of the land

[20:19] <tau> don't be too loud?

[20:19] <psi> respect

[20:19] <kappa> respect

[20:19] <gamma> respect

[20:19] <DWROB> font be too loud! that doesn't look very moral!

[20:20] <pi> the Gods are uncaring for humanity

[20:20] <omega> that is what happens a lot man changes religious things to fit his plight at the time or to fit his life style

[20:20] <mu> cherish the gods

[20:20] <beta> that's what I was thinking ... what moral?

[20:20] <DWROB> pi: good -- good answer

[20:20] <eta> respect what you are given

[20:20] <epsilon> respect the higher powers

[20:20] <mu> and believe in their power

[20:20] <iota> respect

[20:20] <aleph> the gods are given human qualities of being able to get annoyed

[20:20] <dalet7> live life to the fullest,respect

[20:20] <yod> don't try to be a god, be happy with being mortal

[20:20] <DWROB> there either is no lesson, or the lesson is FATE, and the indifference of the gods to human affairs.

[20:20] <chi> That things haven't really changed

[20:20] <DWROB> right

[20:20] <tau> yes ... the gods see humans as servants ... they don't care for them

[20:20] <chi> maybe the moral was to do what the gods tell you to do

[20:20] <eta> the gods give you stuff ... don't mess it up

[20:21] <DWROB> exactly -- that is what makes the Hebrew tradition revolutionary, a novel idea in cultural history

[20:21] <aleph> the gods are fickle

[20:21] <lambda> you need the gods, they don't need you

[20:21] <rho> Ecological consideration

[20:21] <DWROB> So OUR lesson here is this ...

[20:21] <nu> that God cares

[20:21] <theta> well, why would a story about god's indifference survive this long? why would people believe this?

[20:21] <psi> they don't care

[20:21] <psi> who cares about servants

[20:21] <DWROB> the same folk tale gets used twice, but for utterly opposite purposes.

[20:21] <vav> yes

[20:21] <beta> its not for people to believe it is only a literary epic

[20:21] <kappa> yeah

[20:21] <aleph> to teach what someone wants everyone else to believe

[20:21] <DWROB> We get a glimpse here of HOW the writers of the bible worked, what their raw materials were

[20:22] <chi> because the Hebrew god di care about humans, or at least he did later

[20:22] <theta> ok

[20:22] <omega> don't the stories get changed

[20:22] <he> The stories they used to created their own

[20:22] <DWROB> So Gilg is interesting in it's own right, and in relation to the bible

[20:22] <phi> god just killed 200,000 people in India, u think he cares?

[20:22] <pi> everyone knows the story of the flood so lets all share it for our own purpose

[20:22] <vav> modified ... is more like it.

[20:22] <beta> yes

[20:22] <vav> yes

[20:22] <psi> different

[20:22] <DWROB> good

[20:22] <epsilon> they just kinda put certain things together

[20:22] <mu> ye

[20:22] <dalet7> why blame the flood on god?

[20:22] <kappa> yeah

[20:22] <DWROB> epsilon: not kinda -- there was a very precise agenda

[20:23] <omega> yes

[20:23] <omega> he does

[20:23] <gamma> fate in inevitable

[20:23] <omega> god controls every thing

[20:23] <DWROB> And for the record, the Bible in it's present form was written IN Babylon, by exiled Jewish priest/editors

[20:23] <aleph> the god of the Bible is a much stronger god

[20:23] <DWROB> which makes a certain amount of sense

[20:23] <dalet7> tsunami=natural catastrophe

[20:23] <omega> by the all powerful

[20:23] <psi> all powerful

[20:23] <aleph> he does not need other gods to make a decision and you're fate is in his hands

[20:24] <DWROB> Let's talk about something new ...


[20:24] <rho> The old testament tells of the world before Christ.

[20:24] <omega> population control that what it was

[20:24] <he> So were those people who wrote the bible talking about the same God in Gilgamesh

[20:24] <DWROB> What do you think is the point of that story?

[20:24] <tau> i can't picture what this creature looks like

[20:24] <kappa> Humbaba cursed them

[20:24] <beta> Humbaba had 7 powers

[20:24] <aleph> be nice to nature

[20:24] <theta> Humbaba reminded me of the tale of David and Goliath

[20:24] <mu> he cursed Enki cause he told Gilgamesh to kill him

[20:24] <eta> pride

[20:24] <sigma> yes

[20:24] <vav> to be a hero.

[20:24] <DWROB> he: no, a different god, but they used the same stories

[20:24] <sigma> poor Humbaba

[20:24] <DWROB> theta: yes

[20:24] <omega> i think kinda in a way

[20:24] <iota> he cursed them

[20:24] <nu> man conquering a strange force

[20:24] <vav> so the name Gilgamesh would be carried for all times.

[20:25] <nu> taming the wild

[20:25] <tau> i am not sure ... didn't really catch a moral to this one ...

[20:25] <lambda> to give Gilg. fame

[20:25] <theta> nobody thought he could be beaten, but they proved everyone wrong

[20:25] <DWROB> vav: right, every epic hero needs to do great deeds in battle to win fame

[20:25] <epsilon> he was to prideful

[20:25] <sigma> an eye for an eye

[20:25] <theta> and the gods became angry

[20:25] <DWROB> epsilon: who was prideful?

[20:25] <pi> yeah it was pretty dick of gilg. to kill the guy after the guy basically gave up

[20:25] <chi> that everything you do to try to achieve trivial success has dire consequences

[20:25] <beta> that's why he did it -- to become infamous or die trying

[20:25] <gamma> it shows how the gods blessed Gilg. in his life

[20:25] <aleph> Gilgamesh

[20:25] <DWROB> pi: yes, that is strange and disturbing

[20:25] <eta> there was no reason to kill Humbaba.. it was all for pride wasn't it?

[20:25] <tau> but, Enkidu's death sort-of happened as a result of this ... so i know there is a good moral to this

[20:25] <chi> when you kill something just to prove you can, you will be punished

[20:25] <rho> Gilgamesh

[20:25] <DWROB> aleph: ah

[20:25] <phi> mans desire for power

[20:26] <DWROB> What is Humbaba?

[20:26] <pi> gilg only did it for fame, not a very compassionate king

[20:26] <theta> a giant

[20:26] <DWROB> what does he represent?

[20:26] <psi> a giant

[20:26] <tau> the protector of the forest

[20:26] <DWROB> yes

[20:26] <gamma> An obstacle

[20:26] <psi> the protected the path way

[20:26] <mu> but he only did it because Enki persuaded him "the King" to do it

[20:26] <rho> Humbaba is like an ant bed

[20:26] <DWROB> protector of the forest

[20:26] <kappa> forest

[20:26] <vav> a feared giant

[20:26] <nu> the wild

[20:26] <omega> not really

[20:26] <sigma> giant

[20:26] <he> they defeated Humbaba

[20:26] <iota> giant

[20:26] <DWROB> And what happens to the forest when H is killed?

[20:26] <lambda> a giant

[20:26] <psi> then he cursed them

[20:26] <tau> so the moral is pride?

[20:26] <aleph> the forest is destroyed

[20:26] <mu> forest protector

[20:26] <theta> the cut it down

[20:26] <chi> A symbol of power and strength

[20:26] <psi> it is destroyed

[20:26] <eta> it is destroyed ...

[20:26] <rho> deforestation

[20:27] <pi> someone with a powerful reputation who posed a threat to gilg. because his reputation was basically a challenge

[20:27] <lambda> it is destroyed

[20:27] <DWROB> what happens to the forest? to the trees?

[20:27] <mu> it is destroyed

[20:27] <nu> it is tamed

[20:27] <psi> the gods destroy it

[20:27] <gamma> It is destroyed

[20:27] <phi> dies

[20:27] <aleph> they get cut down

[20:27] <theta> they are brought down

[20:27] <kappa> destroyed

[20:27] <tau> gilg cuts it down

[20:27] <dalet7> destroyed

[20:27] <DWROB> and what is done with them?

[20:27] <vav> destroyed

[20:27] <mu> they are chopped down

[20:27] <eta> they use the largest one to make a gate to the city.. as a trophy

[20:27] <rho> for human consumption

[20:27] <DWROB> aha!

[20:27] <tau> make into a gate

[20:27] <mu> made to build a fence

[20:27] <beta> they are "felled" b Gil

[20:27] <theta> The gods give them away to a variety of elements

[20:27] <chi> they trees are cut down, but Enlil gives Humbaba's treasures back to nature, like to the river

[20:27] <kappa> gate

[20:27] <eta> and use other trees to build a raft

[20:27] <iota> the forest is destroyed

[20:27] <sigma> destroyed

[20:27] <DWROB> And what are the consequences for Enkidu and Gilg. for having done this?

[20:27] <mu> using the tallest trees

[20:28] <tau> one must die ... Enkidu

[20:28] <pi> Enlil gets pissed and curses them

[20:28] <epsilon> destroyed

[20:28] <epsilon> for the humans

[20:28] <theta> Enkidu is cursed

[20:28] <rho> curse and death

[20:28] <kappa> cursed-Ishtar comes

[20:28] <psi> one must die

[20:28] <eta> the gods decide that one must die

[20:28] <mu> Enki was cursed to death

[20:28] <nu> the bull of the heavens is sent to get them

[20:28] <lambda> Enkidu is cursed and eventually dies

[20:28] <gamma> One must pay the price

[20:28] <he> Enki is to die

[20:28] <psi> they both are cursed

[20:28] <vav> the gods cursed Enkidu

[20:28] <aleph> they are later cursed when they insult Ishtar

[20:28] <DWROB> Why do you think Enkidu ids the one who dies?

[20:28] <psi> Enki pays the price

[20:28] <epsilon> Enki is cursed

[20:28] <rho> They cut the oldest tress in the forest

[20:28] <yod> Enki dies

[20:28] <he> because it will teach Gil

[20:28] <theta> Enkidu told gilg to slay the giant

[20:28] <mu> he told Gilgamesh to kill him

[20:28] <DWROB> Enki != Enkidu

[20:28] <vav> because he was nit born to a god

[20:28] <chi> they don't retrieve the treasures and Enkidu has to die

[20:28] <eta> because he showed Humbaba no mercy

[20:28] <tau> he doesn't seem as important as gilg

[20:28] <sigma> Enkidu is cursed

[20:28] <DWROB> What is Enkidu's origin?

[20:28] <omega> punishment

[20:28] <DWROB> Remember?

[20:28] <theta> the wild

[20:28] <beta> a piece of clay

[20:28] <kappa> forest

[20:28] <aleph> he came from the gods

[20:28] <yod> eats with the animals

[20:28] <DWROB> right

[20:28] <iota> a curse

[20:28] <iota> to teach a lesson

[20:28] <eta> the wilderness

[20:28] <rho> beast

[20:28] <he> He was created in the forest

[20:29] <DWROB> He is Mr. Natural

[20:29] <gamma> clay

[20:29] <iota> Uruk

[20:29] <aleph> he was ignorant of human nature

[20:29] <DWROB> So why does he have to be cursed now?

[20:29] <tau> so he died because he was natural like the forest?

[20:29] <mu> He was of wild born

[20:29] <nu> one of the gods pinched off some clay and sent it to the earth

[20:29] <DWROB> and?

[20:29] <pi> he destroyed his heritage

[20:29] <phi> the wild

[20:29] <psi> he was wild

[20:29] <theta> because he helped destroy his origins ... he didn't "represent" so to speak

[20:29] <aleph> he should have protected nature where he came from

[20:29] <tau> he destroyed where he came from

[20:29] <gamma> because he was made from the gods image

[20:29] <psi> raised with the animals

[20:29] <DWROB> good -- he destroyed nature, from which he came

[20:29] <rho> die for human sins

[20:29] <chi> because he is the one who killed Humbaba in the end and chopped down most of the trees

[20:29] <sigma> inferior

[20:29] <sigma> now he was a hypocrite

[20:29] <eta> there is now no protector of the wilderness/forest

[20:29] <mu> he killed his kin

[20:29] <DWROB> Do you see what this story ends up doing?

[20:29] <kappa> natural like forest and killed protector of forest

[20:29] <chi> because he went against his own nature

[20:30] <beta> the story comes full circle

[20:30] <he> Is that why after he slept with the women the animals wouldn't communicated with him any more

[20:30] <tau> don't destroy where you have come from?

[20:30] <lambda> punishing those who go against their own

[20:30] <DWROB> Where are the giant ancient cedar forests of the middle east today?

[20:30] <aleph> you do not throw away or hurt what or where you came from

[20:30] <rho> gone

[20:30] <theta> nowhere

[20:30] <kappa> gone

[20:30] <nu> gone\

[20:30] <mu> destroyed

[20:30] <psi> desert

[20:30] <tau> i didn't know there were any

[20:30] <pi> moved to Cali

[20:30] <DWROB> gone! and we see them going here!

[20:30] <aleph> gone

[20:30] <rho> desert

[20:30] <kappa> non-existent

[20:30] <chi> telling people to protect nature and not to destroy it

[20:30] <yod> desert?

[20:30] <gamma> there are none

[20:30] <DWROB> This is an environmentalist parable!

[20:30] <iota> there aren't

[20:30] <phi> CALI

[20:30] <sigma> na

[20:30] <DWROB> Pretty amazing.

[20:30] <yod> true

[20:30] <chi> gone

[20:30] <beta> kinda

[20:30] <psi> maybe they didn't exist

[20:30] <tau> all makes perfect sense

[20:31] <psi> how so

[20:31] <eta> wow

[20:31] <aleph> do you really believe they were already thinking about the environment?

[20:31] <rho> this is the lesson learned

[20:31] <he> how do we know there were some there at all

[20:31] <DWROB> The civilizations grew, cut down all the forests, and made deserts of the land that persist to this day

[20:31] <eta> there is proof they existed

[20:31] <chi> environmentalist way back then

[20:31] <kappa> that is interesting

[20:31] <omega> yeah

[20:31] <DWROB> What is the name we give the territory of Babylonia today?

[20:31] <lambda> amazing

[20:31] <dalet7> deeep

[20:31] <yod> PETA existed back then?

[20:31] <mu> Iraq

[20:31] <rho> Iraq

[20:31] <DWROB> PETA -- no

[20:31] <tau> Iraq

[20:31] <pi> Iraq

[20:31] <psi> Iraq

[20:31] <lambda> Iraq

[20:31] <gamma> Iraq

[20:31] <nu> Iraq

[20:31] <vav> Iraq

[20:31] <DWROB> Iraq

[20:31] <kappa> Iraq

[20:31] <dalet7> Iraq

[20:31] <DWROB> right

[20:31] <psi> you asked that last class i think

[20:31] <he> Iraq

[20:31] <DWROB> OH

[20:31] <epsilon> that is interesting

[20:31] <DWROB> well..

[20:31] <DWROB> glad you remembered

[20:32] <pi> duh

[20:32] <psi> extra credit

[20:32] <psi> for me

[20:32] <sigma> Iraq

[20:32] <phi> Iraq

[20:32] <yod> 2 gold stars?

[20:32] <aleph> I have a hard time believing that they cut down all the trees and they never regrew

[20:32] <eta> okok

[20:32] <iota> Iran

[20:32] <DWROB> OK, stop saying Iraq

[20:32] <beta> extra credit for me i said it first LAST Wednesday

[20:32] <psi> naw

[20:32] <pi> maybe there never were any trees and this story was a way to explain why

[20:32] <DWROB> Let's back up a little and look some more at Enkidu

[20:32] <psi> well he died

[20:33] <he> He is representative of nature

[20:33] <DWROB> pi: no, better than that -- there WERE trees, and the bible celebrates them too

[20:33] <aleph> I think the description of Enkidu's appearance is interesting

[20:33] <kappa> Taught by the harlot and shepherds

[20:33] <DWROB> OK -- Enkidu

[20:33] <tau> he represents an instinctual human

[20:33] <he> and Gil represents civilization

[20:33] <rho> He was turned to from beast to human so to say, by a woman

[20:33] <tau> animal-like instincts

[20:33] <vav> afraid

[20:33] <psi> by a prostitute

[20:33] <DWROB> good, I think they do represent two sides of human nature, yes

[20:33] <theta> but is there any physical evidence that there were trees?

[20:33] <kappa> natural instincts

[20:33] <beta> Enkidu was Gil's second self

[20:33] <sigma> one with the animals

[20:33] <aleph> a woman made him a man - kind of a modern thought

[20:33] <theta> I mean, didn't we just talk about how a lot of the bible comes from tales such as this?

[20:33] <DWROB> theta: archaeological and historical documentation both.

[20:34] <theta> ok

[20:34] <psi> ok

[20:34] <gamma> what was once a perfect combination was destroyed

[20:34] <dalet7> Iraq is the sight of Eden.

[20:34] <omega> like in the odyssey

[20:34] <lambda> he represents nature; when he was made a man he was "corrupted"

[20:34] <DWROB> Does the story of the Harlot and Enkidu remind you of anything?

[20:34] <aleph> like Eden

[20:34] <pi> hearthside

[20:34] <theta> the temptation of Christ

[20:34] <sigma> no clothing

[20:34] <aleph> Wouldn't that be Sampson maybe

[20:34] <psi> the flood

[20:34] <DWROB> keep going

[20:34] <tau> god creating Adam?

[20:34] <DWROB> going

[20:34] <DWROB> Adam?

[20:34] <vav> Adam and eve

[20:34] <rho> David

[20:34] <nu> pandora

[20:34] <beta> Eve and the serpent

[20:34] <kappa> Adam and eve

[20:35] <he> Adam and the apple

[20:35] <lambda> Adam and eve

[20:35] <DWROB> How do Adam and Eve fit?

[20:35] <eta> yes! Adam and eve ...

[20:35] <chi> it is always the woman that has to corrupt the man

[20:35] <vav> naked

[20:35] <yod> man is born with good nature

[20:35] <he> one side is corrupting the other

[20:35] <epsilon> Adam and Eve

[20:35] <pi> a man made "knowledgeable" by a woman

[20:35] <lambda> man tempted by woman

[20:35] <mu> one side tempts the other

[20:35] <sigma> foils

[20:35] <DWROB> OK -- but this corruption stuff is Hebrew thinking

[20:35] <iota> temptation from the devil

[20:35] <DWROB> is Enkidu actually corrupted by the harlot?

[20:35] <psi> the women corrupted the man

[20:35] <eta> well eve gained knowledge and then tempted Adam to do the same

[20:35] <omega> Delilah weakness

[20:35] <phi> they started good and turned bad

[20:35] <pi> yeah the Hebrews didn't like sex

[20:35] <kappa> no

[20:35] <chi> Eve convinced Adam to eat the apple

[20:35] <aleph> she takes away his power

[20:35] <vav> no

[20:35] <he> no

[20:35] <beta> not corrupted, taught

[20:35] <rho> no by beauty

[20:35] <tau> no ... he gains human thoughts

[20:36] <eta> wow ... women corrupting man ... . jeez ...

[20:36] <mu> no

[20:36] <he> he give himself to her

[20:36] <psi> nope

[20:36] <iota> no

[20:36] <DWROB> pi: they wanted to control sex; not a matter of liking it or not

[20:36] <phi> no

[20:36] <vav> Gilgamesh i believed corrupted him

[20:36] <DWROB> Yes -- the sex makes Enkidu human

[20:36] <gamma> no it helps and changes him

[20:36] <DWROB> it opens his eyes ... .

[20:36] <chi> sex was very natural to them, so it wasn't negative that a woman changed Enkidu

[20:36] <psi> control it so it doesn't corrupt people

[20:36] <gamma> into what he becomes

[20:36] <DWROB> let me give you a quotation.

[20:36] <pi> it enlightens him

[20:36] <pi> that's why it reminds me of Siddhartha

[20:36] <beta> enlightens..that's a good word for it

[20:36] <DWROB>

[20:36] Last message repeated 3 time(s).

[20:36] <DWROB> So he returned and sat down as the woman's feet, and listened

[20:36] <DWROB> intently to what she said. You are wise, Enkidu, and now you have become like a

[20:36] <DWROB> god. Why do you want to run wild with the beasts in the hills? Come with me. I will

[20:36] <DWROB> take you to strong-walled Uruk, to the blessed temple of Ishtar and of Anu, of love

[20:36] <DWROB> and of heaven: there Gilgamesh lives, who is very strong, and like a wild bull he lords

[20:36] <DWROB> it over men.

[20:37] <DWROB>

[20:37] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:37] <he> why then would nature not communicate with him after he had sex with the woman

[20:37] <DWROB> "you are become like a god" -- this is word for word what the serpent promises Eve will happen

[20:37] <eta> oh wow

[20:37] <tau> very interesting

[20:37] <rho> innocents was gone

[20:37] <DWROB> he: well, it looks like the older version of the tale was actually a myth of the alienation of man from nature

[20:37] <beta> that's what i said ... eve and the serpent

[20:37] <phi> didn't know that

[20:38] <gamma> it symbolized the corruption developing in a perfect relationship

[20:38] <chi> cool

[20:38] <aleph> that's interesting

[20:38] <sigma> cool

[20:38] <DWROB> The Hebrew version overlays a new theme : the alienation of the One God and Man

[20:38] <pi> in this tail nature sorta kicks him out for being a man

[20:38] <yod> nice point

[20:38] <kappa> interesting

[20:38] <he> hmm

[20:38] <psi> very interesting

[20:38] <DWROB> beta: yes, and good

[20:38] <mu> yea

[20:38] <tau> he wasn't a beast anymore

[20:38] <pi> in the Hebrew one God kicks him out for not doing what he said

[20:38] <aleph> why does a woman have to be the evil force?

[20:38] <dalet7> nature parallels Hebrew god

[20:38] <omega> tight

[20:38] <psi> they always are

[20:38] <eta> haha

[20:38] <DWROB> Yes, and the sex in the old story is a good thing ... while sex in the Hebrew version is a bad thing, though it is only implied

[20:38] <eta> oops ...

[20:39] <aleph> sex was not so bad in the earlier part of the Hebrew scriptures

[20:39] <eta> but prostitution was frowned upon thought right?

[20:39] <DWROB> aleph: Historically, monotheistic religions have tended to demote women to an inferior status.

[20:39] <vav> what about Ea ... it is ea alone who knows all things.

[20:39] <DWROB> At an early stage in their evolution, at least

[20:39] <sigma> not by Enkidu

[20:39] <psi> but then prostitution was actually looked upon as good

[20:39] <aleph> then way does this story - they believed in numerous gods some of which were women

[20:40] <DWROB> eta: prostitution was a sacred rite of worshiping Ishtar

[20:40] <omega> prostitution was not the way is known to be now back then

[20:40] <yod> prostitution is discussed in Proverbs 23 i think

[20:40] <DWROB> But the Hebrews frowned on people worshiping Ishtar ...

[20:40] <eta> i meant in the bible ... wasn't it frowned upon always

[20:40] <DWROB> so they frowned on sex and prostitution

[20:40] <gamma> good point

[20:40] <kappa> makes sense

[20:40] <DWROB> It was a hard sell!

[20:40] <mu> good

[20:40] <aleph> temple prostitutes were fine in the bible

[20:40] <pi> yeah I'm still not buyin it

[20:40] <he> marry mag

[20:40] <rho> It sold

[20:40] <DWROB> aleph: they are NOT fine, but they are there, yes

[20:40] <tau> but they also frowned upon sex to control populations back then

[20:40] <sigma> sex bad ... prostitution good?

[20:41] <DWROB> the competition down he street

[20:41] <beta> fine? they were STONED

[20:41] <beta> to death

[20:41] <psi> well we see how it turned out

[20:41] <DWROB> sigma: no: polytheistic view of sex BAD from the Hebrew perspective

[20:41] <pi> yeah so am i

[20:41] <aleph> there is a passage in the bible that talks about temple prostitutes and they were not stoned

[20:41] <DWROB> beta: correct (in theory, not practice)

[20:42] <DWROB> aleph: quite right

[20:42] <DWROB> The cultures/religions overlapped and competed.

[20:42] <DWROB> The bible gives only one side of this conflict

[20:42] <rho> winners and losers

[20:42] <psi> exactly

[20:42] <DWROB> We are reading literature by the other side, which I think is interesting

[20:42] <aleph> so basically we really do not know what was really going on in these cultures

[20:42] <vav> me too

[20:42] <pi> the bible tries to paint a pretty picture of the way things should be

[20:42] <kappa> i guess not

[20:42] <DWROB> Oh, I think by comparing both traditions we know quite a lot!

[20:43] <epsilon> this kinda tell both sides

[20:43] <epsilon> or the other side

[20:43] <vav> it raises so many questions

[20:43] <sigma> But if these stories all were to tell different cultures about morals, then why would sex be frowned upon in one and prostitution okay in another?

[20:43] <aleph> we know they believed in higher powers

[20:43] <psi> we have many questions

[20:43] <lambda> it raises questions because we have never seen it before

[20:43] <chi> most thing that you read can only be one sided

[20:43] <epsilon> ya its ;crazy

[20:43] <eta> that's just a difference in a culture ...

[20:43] <nu> dirty sex oppressors

[20:43] <tau> they worshiped a different god (or gods)

[20:43] <rho> Every story has different sides. That is why it is good to have an open mind

[20:43] <dalet7> too many believe ignorance is bliss

[20:43] <kappa> The winner writes history the way they want it portrayed

[20:43] <aleph> we know they were suppose to be controlled by these powers

[20:43] <he> that is just what we are left with we just have to form our own opinion

[20:43] <gamma> how did you follow this side of the story with so many missing holes

[20:44] <DWROB> Let's look at Gilg. toward the end now

[20:44] <nu> toward the end he is more human than ever

[20:44] <DWROB> gamma: hard to do, admittedly; but there are many extant fragmentary copies of Gilg.

[20:44] <chi> did he die of old age?

[20:44] <kappa> his humanistic qualities show

[20:44] <sigma> he is suffering

[20:44] <nu> yes

[20:44] <DWROB> In the Babylonian view, based on this text, what does wisdom consist of?

[20:44] <tau> yes

[20:44] <beta> you mean intact?

[20:44] <mu> he is becoming more human

[20:45] <aleph> he is like old people today that hold onto life as long as they can

[20:45] <iota> a much nicer being

[20:45] <nu> knowing how life is

[20:45] <aleph> no one really wants to die

[20:45] <gamma> knowledge

[20:45] <omega> natural causes

[20:45] <tau> living life

[20:45] <eta> how to act human

[20:45] <DWROB> nu: I could not put it better

[20:45] <beta> wisdom is power

[20:45] <he> he died still upset about Enki

[20:45] <DWROB> And so, how IS life?

[20:45] <omega> his death

[20:45] <yod> the people mourned him

[20:45] <nu> fleeting

[20:45] <eta> you live,,, then you die

[20:45] <kappa> short

[20:45] <DWROB> What is the knowledge that Gilg gains that makes him wise?

[20:45] <he> Life was good for his people

[20:45] <tau> enjoying it

[20:45] <lambda> passing

[20:45] <rho> life was good if the gods were happy

[20:45] <aleph> life is to be enjoyed

[20:45] <mu> life then death

[20:45] <dalet7> you live to die

[20:45] <kappa> death

[20:45] <chi> knowledge of the world outside of your village

[20:45] <nu> that all men die

[20:46] <iota> he found a bond with Enkidu and became more human with more emotion

[20:46] <pi> we all die

[20:46] <tau> that the point of life is to live life

[20:46] <sigma> difficult

[20:46] <gamma> he cannot run from his own fate

[20:46] <beta> there is no immortality

[20:46] <epsilon> enjoy life

[20:46] <DWROB> Yes, even tough humans (especially Gilg) are godlike in some ways, they are not gods.

[20:46] <DWROB> Their life is limited.

[20:46] <nu> everything changes

[20:46] <chi> life is hard and not always fair

[20:46] <pi> exactly'

[20:46] <DWROB> Their power and knowledge is limited.

[20:46] <kappa> Gods are gods and humans are humans

[20:46] <DWROB> Wisdom comes in accepting this

[20:46] <beta> okay

[20:47] <he> Immortality is in your wisdom

[20:47] <sigma> some people think they are

[20:47] <mu> wisdom comes with living and experiencing

[20:47] <rho> they seem more like Greek gods than the Hebrew god

[20:47] <DWROB> here a the end, nearly ... .

[20:47] <DWROB>

[20:47] Last message repeated 3 time(s).

[20:47] <DWROB> p. 40 - The destiny was fulfilled which the father of the gods, Enlil of the mountain,

[20:47] <DWROB> had decreed for Gilgamesh: "In nether-earth the darkness will show him a light: of

[20:47] <chi> and in excepting your inevitable death

[20:47] <DWROB> mankind, all that are known, none will leave a monument for generations to come to

[20:47] <gamma> hence they will always be inferior

[20:47] <DWROB> compare to his. The heroes, the wise men, like the new moon have their waxing and

[20:47] <DWROB> waning. Men will say, 'Who has ever ruled with might and with power like him?' As

[20:47] <DWROB> in the dark month, the month of shadows, so without him there is no light. O

[20:47] <DWROB> Gilgamesh, this was the meaning of your dream. You were given kingship, such was

[20:47] <DWROB> your destiny, everlasting life was not your destiny. Because of this do not be sad at

[20:47] <DWROB> heart, do not be grieved or oppressed; he has given you power to bind and to loose, to

[20:47] <DWROB> be the darkness and the light of mankind. He has given unexampled supremacy over

[20:47] <DWROB> the people, victory in the battle from which no fugitive returns, in forays and assaults

[20:47] <DWROB> from which there is no going back. But do not abuse this power, deal justly with your

[20:47] <DWROB> servants in the palace, deal justly before the face of the Sun."

[20:47] <DWROB>

[20:47] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:47] <DWROB> yes, very like the Greek gods

[20:48] <DWROB> What's the other aspect of the wisdom that Gilg. achieves?

[20:48] <aleph> except you place life has given you

[20:48] <DWROB> What makes him a good king?

[20:48] <mu> accept your fate

[20:48] <nu> knowing his actions gain his name immortality

[20:48] <psi> to accept mortality

[20:48] <vav> death is nothing to fear

[20:48] <gamma> he learned he had fulfilled his purpose in life

[20:48] <mu> death is natural

[20:48] <yod> proper work for humans and gods are different

[20:48] <DWROB> what are the ethical implications of accepting mortality?

[20:48] <aleph> he has learned to be just?

[20:48] <rho> you are who you are

[20:48] <DWROB> aleph: YES

[20:48] <lambda> death comes to all humans

[20:49] <sigma> he comes to terms at the end of his life

[20:49] <chi> he is just with his people

[20:49] <he> he listened to his people

[20:49] <beta> that his action will have consequences

[20:49] <epsilon> to accept his fate of dying and not mourn it

[20:49] <omega> the cast system of life

[20:49] <rho> you must live as humans do

[20:49] <DWROB> justice, mercy derive from a sense of shared limits, shared mortality

[20:49] <kappa> he knows his people

[20:49] <eta> knowing that you cannot live forever

[20:49] <iota> he learned immortality is not realistic

[20:49] <pi> he realized that his minions were people to

[20:49] <psi> he just had to come to terms with that

[20:49] <sigma> excepting life

[20:49] <aleph> in the end of your life you understand many things that had you baffled before

[20:50] <DWROB> iota: right, and people who think they are like immortals are not pleasant to be around

[20:50] <tau> they lack passion

[20:50] <chi> that you are comfortable with your ideas of death

[20:50] <gamma> once you give in to your ultimate fate you can truly live

[20:50] <pi> its sorta cut him down to size

[20:50] <beta> no, b/c they are usually very self-centered

[20:50] <sigma> we are all equal in that we will die one day

[20:50] <DWROB> So what happens to people (and heroes) when they die in this story?

[20:50] <tau> its all accepting your fate

[20:50] <aleph> they are remembered

[20:50] <tau> they go to the underworld

[20:50] <mu> the are never forgotten

[20:50] <gamma> it seems as though they only live on as legends

[20:50] <iota> definitely

[20:51] <vav> they are remembered for ever

[20:51] <kappa> remembered

[20:51] <he> they are buried in a tomb

[20:51] <DWROB> gamma: only as legends -- yes

[20:51] <nu> they go to a house in the underworld

[20:51] <chi> he didn't worry about leaving his mark as much he was really able to rule his people

[20:51] <tau> they want to to live on in legends ... like gilg

[20:51] <he> with offering for the gods

[20:51] <nu> the food is of dust

[20:51] <chi> their people morn and make sacrifices

[20:51] <DWROB> The archaic notion of the underworld is similar in this culture, in Greece, and among the Hebrews.

[20:51] <rho> they want to be told as stories

[20:51] <beta> probably go to the garden of the sun

[20:51] <DWROB> The fully formed notions of heaven and hell come much later

[20:51] <beta> oh, never mind

[20:51] <aleph> did they believe in an underworld?

[20:52] <pi> there was a different plain of existence for the dead

[20:52] <DWROB> Here, when you are dead, you go to a shadowy, pretty dead kind of place.

[20:52] <epsilon> underworld

[20:52] <tau> yes ... Enlil had a dream about it

[20:52] <eta> so did everyone go to the underworld? was the underworld always bad?

[20:52] <chi> they all have a river to cross

[20:52] <kappa> I didn't know that

[20:52] <DWROB> Not bad, not good -- just dead

[20:52] <he> purgatory??

[20:52] <pi> purgatory

[20:52] <mu> good point

[20:52] <aleph> like sleeping

[20:52] <nu> kings became servants

[20:52] <eta> oh ... so nothing to look forward to

[20:52] <DWROB> there is no moral parable in the idea of the afterlife

[20:52] <DWROB> that is a later idea

[20:52] <vav> limbo

[20:52] <he> ok i got ya

[20:52] <chi> or you are reincarnated

[20:53] <he> this is before the bible

[20:53] <DWROB> That's a different part of the world!

[20:53] <lambda> so they accept the notion of death

[20:53] <DWROB> Have patience!

[20:53] <sigma> nothing to be afraid of either

[20:53] <DWROB> we'll get to reincarnation later

[20:53] <pi> i refuse!!!

[20:53] <yod> haha

[20:53] <DWROB> Any lingering questions?

[20:53] <rho> this is the birth place of human kind?

[20:53] <DWROB> We have covered my agenda

[20:54] <eta> oh

[20:54] <DWROB> rho: according to some religious traditions, yes

[20:54] <psi> what happens if we didn't do the forum

[20:54] <vav> I have a question not related to the story.

[20:54] <pi> do we really have to read the entire odyssey in one week

[20:54] <lambda> I do too

[20:54] <DWROB> save non-story questions for after

[20:54] <psi> ok

[20:54] <vav> ok

[20:54] <lambda> ok

[20:54] <beta> in the Hebrew Bible the not good or bad place was called Sheol?

[20:54] <DWROB> pi: just the excerpts int he text

[20:54] <DWROB> beta: exactly

[20:54] <DWROB> exactly

[20:54] <chi> why did other people always have to tell Gilgamesh what his dreams meant

[20:54] <DWROB> don't know

[20:55] <DWROB> same in the bible, thought

[20:55] <DWROB> though

[20:55] <mu> Why did the gods give Utnapishtim immortality

[20:55] <beta> he was a visionary, not an interpreter!

[20:55] <kappa> he survived the flood

[20:55] <he> he survived the flood

[20:55] <DWROB> Utnapishtim had a special deal with Ea (Enki) -- it was all politics

[20:55] <pi> cause Enki told him it was coming

[20:55] <iota> what do we do for next week?

[20:55] <mu> ok

[20:55] <pi> will we find out what that deal was?

[20:56] <DWROB> consult the syllabus

[20:56] <kappa> ok

[20:56] <yod> are we free to leave?

[20:56] <DWROB> Hebrew bible starts next week

[20:56] <DWROB> you are -- good job -- good night!

[20:56] <he> when does the quiz need to be done

[20:56] <aleph> good night

[20:56] <beta> yeah!

[20:56] <yod> nite nite classmates!

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[20:57] <pi> by 5 this afternoon

[20:57] <DWROB> do the quiz an hour before chat time OR ELSE

[20:57] <omega> night

[20:57] <psi> so what happens if we missed the forum

[20:57] omega ( left irc: Quit

[20:57] <DWROB> psi: go make it up NOW

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[20:57] <gamma> goodbye

[20:57] <psi> ok

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[20:57] <dalet7> i cannot log onto inquisition!!!

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[20:57] <mu> Excerpts from the Hebrew Bible (1:52) what does this mean

[20:57] he ( left irc: Quit

[20:57] <pi> you are logged on

[20:57] <pi> volume one page 52

[20:57] <nu> i was unable to take the knowledge quiz before the deadline, what can i do

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[20:58] <DWROB> 1:52 == volume 1 page 52 starts the reading (in the text book)

[20:58] <vav> Knowing this was written before the bible ... do you believe there to be one GOD or many gods?

[20:58] <dalet7> i cannot log onto knowledge quiz

[20:58] <eta> yeah i just completes the knowledge quiz ... it was acting funny on my computer. i could complete the first 5 and it would not go further. i completed all 96 today though

[20:58] <pi> maybe he doesn't believe in any

[20:58] <DWROB> vav: I am a rationalist and I don't believe anything whatsoever :-)

[20:58] <eta> is that alright?

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[20:59] <vav> how about leaning to one side?

[20:59] <beta> dr. rob?

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[20:59] <DWROB> Seriously, I regard this stuff anthropologically and poetically -- truth content is not interesting to me

[21:00] <beta> i understand the % on the syllabus, but HOW are the quizzes and forums graded?

[21:00] <DWROB> You aren't paying tuition to hear my notions of religious truth, anyway

[21:00] <lambda> is it ok to do the chat with the Tuesday session next week

[21:00] <dalet7> Hello? Please email me concerning knowledge quiz issue

[21:00] <pi> maybe we are

[21:00] <DWROB> dalet7: Issue?

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[21:00] <dalet7> yes

[21:00] <dalet7> i cannot log on

[21:00] <vav> My question earlier was ... I have had trouble logging on to the survey.

[21:01] <DWROB> beta: isn't that also explained on the syllabus?

[21:01] <vav> what do i do if i cant get in

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[21:01] <beta> sort of

[21:01] <DWROB> The survey shouldn't give you trouble now

[21:01] <DWROB> try it and let me know

[21:01] <DWROB> problem should be fixed

[21:01] <vav> ok ... I'll try.

[21:01] <nu> so we can still do it

[21:01] <DWROB> use SSN plus the separate password, remember

[21:01] <beta> I mean the participation isn't just by the number of times you enter in text, is it?

[21:01] <DWROB> Survey stays open through the rest of the week -- I'll post a notice in the forum about that

[21:02] <dalet7> i did 1 hr prior to class

[21:02] <pi> will the Hebrew bible quiz be due before next weeks chat?

[21:02] <beta> context matters right?

[21:02] <nu> thank you

[21:02] <lambda> Dr. Rob, is it ok to do the chat with the Tuesday class next week

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[21:02] <DWROB> beta: In the forum, an A consists doing a good, meaty post each week. More than that is fine too; less is less than an A

[21:03] <beta> but what about these chats?

[21:03] <DWROB> The quizzes are pass/fail, but you get multiple tries and feedback; their average becomes a percentage of the final grade

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[21:03] <DWROB> The chats I grade on the basis of word count. I have a script that keeps track

[21:03] <beta> some people don't put any meaty comments on here,

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[21:03] <DWROB> I come up with a curve

[21:04] <beta> and the rest of us can't get a word in edge wise

[21:04] <DWROB> beta: some people will be disappointed :-)

[21:04] <dalet7> LOL

[21:04] <DWROB> beta: not so

[21:04] <DWROB> in a classroom that's true ... but here, you type and you hit return, end of story

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[21:05] <DWROB> see what I'm saying?

[21:05] <beta> so if some people just making off the wall comments, they still count

[21:05] <DWROB> Like the Nike slogan: Just Do It.

[21:05] <dalet7> however,sometimes nonsense is typed so fast cant get a word in

[21:05] <beta> exactly

[21:05] <DWROB> beta: if people make off topic remarks, I will kick them out

[21:05] <DWROB> I'm the "oper" so that's my role

[21:05] <beta> okay

[21:06] <beta> thanks for the clarification

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[17:38] <delta> hello

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[18:01] #2111web: mode change '+o DWROB' by Socrates!~Socrates@

[18:01] <DWROB> Hello Ms. Pippin

[18:01] <gimmel> hi

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