Chat: ENGL 2111 (World Literature I) Winter 2005

Chat 3: Hebrew Bible, Part 1

Hebrew Bible, Part 1

[00:00] --- Fri Jan 21 2005

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[08:13] <vav> Dr. Rob

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[00:00] --- Wed Jan 26 2005

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[18:54] <theta> hello

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[19:09] <beta> logging on early to make sure everything was working

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[19:27] <omicron> hey

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[19:37] <beta> I'm glad the background isn't black anymore

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[19:42] <delta> wsup

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[19:43] <gimmel> what up

[19:43] <delta> chillin

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[19:50] <upsilon> I logged on early too because I couldn't get on last week

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[19:51] <gimmel> i couldn't get on last week either

[19:51] <tau> so yeah tell me about it

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[19:52] <vav> Hello everyone? Enjoy the book?

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[19:53] <kappa> hello

[19:54] <vav> Does anyone have an opinion about this book?

[19:54] <upsilon> it was nothing new

[19:55] <kappa> exactly

[19:55] <delta> I agree

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[19:59] <DWROB> Greetings, all.

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[19:59] <gimmel> hi

[19:59] <DWROB> Thank you, Socrates

[19:59] <kappa> hello

[19:59] <nu> hello

[19:59] <upsilon> hello

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[19:59] <beta> hi

[19:59] <delta> jello

[19:59] <omicron> Greetings

[19:59] <DWROB> Jello to you

[20:00] <gamma> hello

[20:00] <psi> hello

[20:00] <DWROB> First let me say a couple of procedural things

[20:00] <sigma> and what yer tries to say about it?

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[20:00] <DWROB> the quizzes are messed up; there will be only one Odyssey quiz

[20:00] <DWROB> Next week there won't be a quiz at all.

[20:00] <DWROB> free week

[20:00] <kappa> yes

[20:00] <yod> yay!!

[20:00] <omicron> thanks

[20:00] <beta> cool

[20:00] <dalet> thanks

[20:01] <DWROB> But we will discuss the Hebrew Bible a second week

[20:01] <delta> thanks

[20:01] <rho> great

[20:01] <vav> We have a lot of reading to do, thanks.

[20:01] <DWROB> and there will be a forum topic to post on

[20:01] <epsilon> hello

[20:01] <epsilon> yes

[20:01] <DWROB> Also -- at the end of the syllabus ...

[20:01] <psi> excellent

[20:01] <DWROB> We will read Hamlet, not Lear.

[20:01] <DWROB> Hamlet is in the textbook.

[20:01] <psi> good

[20:01] <yod> sweet!

[20:01] <omega> hello

[20:01] <omega> yeaahhhh

[20:02] <kaf> hey

[20:02] <beta> I liked King Lear better

[20:02] <sigma> wow

[20:02] <DWROB> OK, this week's introduction to the Hebrew Bible begins with a basic question: why am I calling it the Hebrew Bible and not the Old Testament?

[20:02] Topic changed on #2111web by DWROB!DWROB@ Hebrew Bible Intro

[20:02] <omicron> because the Christians call it the old testament

[20:02] <phi> excellent

[20:02] <rho> This for historical context not religious

[20:02] <psi> because that is what the book calls it

[20:02] <gamma> Because the old testament is the Christians account

[20:02] <beta> b/c old testament is how Christians refer to it

[20:03] <DWROB> rho: Exactly

[20:03] <dalet> The Hebrews wrote it

[20:03] <kappa> alright

[20:03] <delta> because the original was Hebrew

[20:03] <DWROB> The Christian viewpoint is familiar to us but not relevant at the moment to this material

[20:03] <upsilon> The Hebrew Bible is a longer version of the Christian Bible

[20:03] <vav> Thanks , I was wondering why.

[20:03] <lambda> its the original

[20:03] <DWROB> This was written by Jews for Jews, and we are going to try to grasp it in those terms

[20:03] <psi> ok

[20:04] <upsilon> It is actually Jewish scriptures

[20:04] <DWROB> Correct

[20:04] <DWROB> So, what about themes, then? What unifies this material?

[20:04] <vav> trickery

[20:04] <tau> an almighty god

[20:04] <kappa> God

[20:04] <dalet> Omnipotent God

[20:04] <delta> faithfulness, power

[20:04] <gamma> God is the only superior being

[20:04] <eta> one almighty god.. proving his almightiness

[20:04] <nu> It is about God and the pitfalls of man

[20:04] <vav> Obedience

[20:04] <tau> all-powerful god

[20:04] <lambda> faith in god

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[20:04] <omicron> it basically dealt with God and humans relationships

[20:04] <DWROB> good

[20:04] <rho> god human relationships

[20:04] <upsilon> evil, redemption and faith

[20:05] <dalet> obedience and lots of testing of loyalty

[20:05] <omega> there was a new and old testament that why

[20:05] <omega> Hebrews was first

[20:05] <omega> betting on man, ruining mans life just to prove a point

[20:05] <DWROB> god/human

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[20:05] <DWROB> this is interesting because you don't see much of that in Gilgamesh

[20:05] <phi> studying it in a more fiction sense than a real thing

[20:05] <phi> God's power

[20:05] <DWROB> this remark, though was interesting ... .

[20:05] <DWROB>

[20:05] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:05] <DWROB> One theme I saw reoccurring was the ever changing behavior of God. He would become angry and have some plan to implement a punishment but he would change quickly, or he would use extreme situations to teach a lesson to a man or just to test out the man's faith. When God tells Abraham to kill Issac, his real intention was to see if Abraham would do anything for him, including killing his own son. In the story of Jonah we believe God's intention is to destroy

[20:05] <DWROB> Nineveh and he gets angry at Jonah when he is to scared to go there so he flees. When he finally does go there we find that God's purpose was to get Jonah to get Nineveh to repent and Jonah actually gets upset that God is not going to destroy Nineveh. God gets angry and floods the world, then feels bad about it and promises never to do it again. The changing mind of God stands out in almost every story and the tools he uses for implementation are by human standards

[20:05] <epsilon> because the old testament is the christian view

[20:05] <epsilon> god

[20:05] <DWROB> extreme unpredictable. But his point still drives home: obey and worship me and I probably won't kill you.

[20:05] <DWROB>

[20:06] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:06] <aleph> God is good but violent

[20:06] <DWROB> Having read the earlier Babylonian and Sumerian material, what's the simplest explanation for all these changes of hear t in these stories?

[20:06] <psi> he is all powerful

[20:06] <beta> isn't that the same as in Gilgamesh?

[20:06] <psi> they must do what he says

[20:06] <DWROB> yes and no

[20:06] <rho> one god created it all

[20:06] <tau> he loves mankind

[20:06] <aleph> follow what god says

[20:06] <gimmel> they have to do what he tells them to do

[20:06] <chi> The power given to god, his ability to control their lives for any reason

[20:06] <iota> faith

[20:06] <iota> faith in a higher power

[20:06] <gamma> God does not want to completely destroy man only give it a chance to become pure

[20:06] <dalet> monotheism?

[20:06] <omicron> be scared of god

[20:06] <eta> one god..a jealous god

[20:06] <DWROB> what about monotheism?

[20:07] <vav> ???

[20:07] <abc> God just wanted to punish the bad and sinful and love the good and decent

[20:07] <tau> since there is only one god they won't fight

[20:07] <omega> why did god ruin jobs life just to prove a point??

[20:07] <delta> He is the only God

[20:07] <kaf> A merciful and just God

[20:07] <DWROB> WE will talk about Job in some detail next week ...

[20:07] <dalet> Gilgamesh told of many Gods

[20:07] <beta> jealous? that is ludicrous, the people were wicked

[20:07] <gimmel> yea

[20:07] <abc> good ? omega

[20:07] <DWROB> But you have stories like the flood where God changes his mind -- a little odd, isn't that?

[20:07] <psi> only one God

[20:07] <beta> God does not punish

[20:07] <vav> yes

[20:07] <aleph> he still is teaching a lesson to the wicked

[20:07] <kappa> slightly odd

[20:07] <omicron> maybe he just thinks better of it

[20:07] <upsilon> very

[20:07] <gimmel> yea

[20:08] <psi> well he decides to let people live

[20:08] <DWROB> Remember -- the older version of the story had multiple gods disagreeing ...

[20:08] <rho> good point

[20:08] <dalet> what do u mean by change of heart?

[20:08] <tau> he is just teaching humans a lesson

[20:08] <beta> exactly mora

[20:08] <eta> like he wanted to start over again

[20:08] <def> well the flood was done to punish the sinful

[20:08] <DWROB> here, there is only one god, and you have contradictory behaviors

[20:08] <delta> yea but I believe He is teaching

[20:08] <aleph> what was contradictory?

[20:08] <vav> still sound the same

[20:08] <DWROB> same story, adapted to different circumstances, and not without some narrative stretching

[20:08] <dalet> He changed his heart about Jonah too, right?

[20:08] <DWROB> In Jonah, no, not really

[20:08] <phi> god maketh and he can taketh away

[20:08] <gimmel> no

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[20:09] <DWROB> we'll do that next week too -- Jonah and Job are special cases

[20:09] <gamma> the same events occur but one has multiple gods competing and the other has one God with two different emotions

[20:09] <rho> Jonah was taught patience

[20:09] <kappa> alright

[20:09] <chi> men wrote them and men are fickle

[20:09] <chi> no because god is has very humanistic qualities in these stories

[20:09] <DWROB> gamma: that's what I meant -- good

[20:09] <omega> some good suffered too

[20:09] <omega> ok

[20:09] <omega> he saw man had changed so he changed

[20:09] <omega> his mind not to destroy

[20:09] <omega> Jonah was already in the light of god

[20:09] <iota> punishment for the evil from just one god

[20:09] <iota> he does not want to hurt anyone but he thinks they should be punished for sinning against him

[20:09] <rho> man was created in his image

[20:09] <dalet> he was very human in the story of Babel and jealous!

[20:09] <beta> exactly

[20:09] <tau> so god is more like a human being?

[20:10] <kaf> God gives those who rebel a chance to atone and reconcile

[20:10] <abc> good point God only wanted to punish to sinful

[20:10] <DWROB> tau: it varies from story to story

[20:10] <sigma> yeah

[20:10] <beta> thank you

[20:10] <epsilon> he just wanted it to be pure

[20:10] <lambda> man can change his mind because god can?

[20:10] <DWROB> Let me make a couple of points

[20:10] <DWROB> ...

[20:10] <tau> ok, I see

[20:10] <psi> i understand

[20:10] <eta> god has feeling like a human being ... he gets angry and also grieves at times, but he is still the one true "boss"

[20:10] <kappa> everyone can change their mind on anything

[20:10] <DWROB> first, the Hebrew Bible is national epic, like Homer's or Virgil's epics.

[20:11] <DWROB> It explains who the Jews are and where they came from.

[20:11] <DWROB> Who are they exactly?

[20:11] <beta> the chosen ones

[20:11] <kappa> the chosen

[20:11] <gamma> God's people

[20:11] <nu> they are Gods chosen people

[20:11] <lambda> chosen

[20:11] <psi> chosen

[20:11] <gimmel> chosen ones

[20:11] <DWROB> what does "chosen" mean?

[20:11] <vav> Gods people

[20:11] <delta> God's people

[20:11] <aleph> from most their existence, wanderers.

[20:11] <tau> god's people

[20:11] <rho> designated people of Judah

[20:11] <omicron> God's people

[20:11] <dalet> u mean where are they from?

[20:11] <abc> chosen people sent by God

[20:11] <nu> he favors them

[20:11] <kappa> God's people

[20:11] <tau> Israel

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[20:11] <DWROB> favors?

[20:11] <eta> the descendants of two original people?

[20:11] <upsilon> followers

[20:11] <psi> sent by God

[20:11] <vav> preordained to serve God/.

[20:11] <DWROB> he keeps punishing them!

[20:11] <nu> if you go against them they will prevail

[20:11] <psi> To be followers

[20:11] <tau> because they are his people he punishes them

[20:11] <beta> b/c they become sinful

[20:11] <omicron> he uses them as examples

[20:11] <DWROB> In what sense are hey "chosen"?

[20:12] <tau> he punishes because he cares

[20:12] <kappa> maybe through punishment he wants to purify them and make them better

[20:12] <delta> to teach them how they should live

[20:12] <yod> they commit sins too

[20:12] <rho> test loyalty

[20:12] <vav> to suffer?

[20:12] <DWROB> what's so special about them?

[20:12] <aleph> if you do not do bad he really doesn't punish them

[20:12] <dalet> thru constant covenants

[20:12] <upsilon> He wants to help them be "right"

[20:12] <tau> they believe in him

[20:12] <vav> They believe in God.

[20:12] <DWROB> dalet: thank you -- covenants are the key

[20:12] <eta> he wants a utopia

[20:12] <nu> God protects them from other people

[20:12] <lambda> they follow gods word

[20:12] <rho> descendants of Noah

[20:12] <DWROB> what is a covenant?

[20:12] <dalet> it goes back to Esau and Jacob

[20:12] <tau> a deal

[20:12] <beta> a promise

[20:12] <aleph> an agreement

[20:12] <nu> a pact

[20:12] <abc> why does God protect them?

[20:12] <mu> an agreement

[20:12] <kappa> agreement

[20:12] <DWROB> abc: good question

[20:12] <tau> because they believe in him

[20:13] <upsilon> agreement

[20:13] <xi> They are the chosen people

[20:13] <xi> They are his followers

[20:13] <xi> agreement

[20:13] <DWROB> What covenants do you see in the reading before you?

[20:13] <aleph> they worship him

[20:13] <vav> More than an agreement.

[20:13] <delta> they are his followers

[20:13] <eta> they are the only ones who can serve him

[20:13] <tau> the flood and the rainbow

[20:13] <beta> he is the creator that os why he protects them

[20:13] <kappa> flood

[20:13] <rho> end of the flood

[20:13] <gimmel> flood

[20:13] <dalet> covenant never to destroy the earth again.

[20:13] <DWROB> tau: good, the flood and rainbow ...

[20:13] <beta> the rainbow

[20:13] <lambda> the flood and when it ends

[20:13] <phi> the chosen people

[20:13] <phi> he keeps promises with them cuz he takes favor to them

[20:13] <phi> agreement

[20:13] <tau> the rainbow is a covenant

[20:13] <iota> disciples

[20:13] <iota> chosen to listen to god

[20:13] <iota> and be taught what is right

[20:13] <mu> the flood is one

[20:13] <omicron> the covenant Joseph made with the king

[20:13] <aleph> they worship him and he protects them

[20:13] <epsilon> the chosen

[20:13] <epsilon> agreement

[20:13] <omega> the 12 chiefs of Judah

[20:13] <omega> Judea

[20:13] <omega> they had a covenant with god

[20:13] <omega> they would be his people

[20:13] <vav> rainbow

[20:13] <chi> They are simple folk

[20:13] <chi> they are just everyday people, they aren't special

[20:13] <chi> They fear God

[20:13] <chi> a group held by a promise

[20:13] <yod> says he will never destroy the earth again

[20:13] <sigma> chosen

[20:13] <sigma> they are appointed as his

[20:13] <sigma> because they believe

[20:13] <xi> 10 commandments

[20:13] <DWROB> In that first covenant, what are the terms of the contract?

[20:14] <tau> if you eat the apple, you will die

[20:14] <DWROB> no, not that early!

[20:14] <omicron> Adam and eve

[20:14] <delta> obedience

[20:14] <upsilon> that they must obey him

[20:14] <aleph> do as I say

[20:14] <psi> Adam and eve

[20:14] <DWROB> the flood/rainbow

[20:14] <DWROB> what does god promise?

[20:14] <psi> they must worship

[20:14] <nu> they must not become so sinful again

[20:14] <rho> ten commandments

[20:14] <aleph> i will never destroy the earth with a flood again

[20:14] <vav> never to flood the earth

[20:14] <tau> not to flood again

[20:14] <psi> that he will not flood again

[20:14] <DWROB> aleph: good

[20:14] <mu> no disobedience

[20:14] <lambda> not to flood earth

[20:14] <DWROB> no more floods

[20:14] <dalet> every time god sees rainbow, he remembers his promise to

[20:14] <omicron> no flood

[20:14] <kappa> God won't destroy the earth

[20:14] <eta> they continue to worship and follow his set of "laws"

[20:14] <upsilon> not to flood the land again

[20:14] <psi> or raise the earths waters against humans

[20:14] <abc> obey Gods rules and you will be spared from the flood, but not if your evil

[20:14] <delta> the earth will not be destroyed

[20:15] <DWROB> Nothing much is actually demanded of human beings in that one

[20:15] <xi> life

[20:15] <rho> tsunami

[20:15] <kaf> God's promise not to bring the flood again

[20:15] <DWROB> And what is the main, founding covenant for the Jews?

[20:15] <mu> restoration

[20:15] <DWROB> the Hebrews?

[20:15] <aleph> worship god

[20:15] <tau> faith

[20:15] <eta> he tells them not to eat bloody meat and stuff right? or is that something else

[20:15] <mu> belief

[20:15] <kappa> believe

[20:15] <abc> faith in God

[20:15] <psi> to have faith

[20:15] <lambda> faith

[20:15] <phi> follow me and i wont kill u

[20:15] <phi> don't eat the apple

[20:15] <psi> and believe

[20:15] <gamma> faith

[20:15] <DWROB> no, tell me the terms of the contract, both sides

[20:15] <epsilon> the flood

[20:15] <epsilon> obedience toward him

[20:15] <epsilon> to never destroy the earth

[20:15] <beta> dr, rob is there a question?

[20:15] <delta> faithfulness with works

[20:15] <sigma> not to punish again after punishing once before

[20:15] <sigma> not to flood again

[20:15] <DWROB> not the Apple -- wrong!

[20:15] <aleph> god will protect them, if they only worship him

[20:15] <dalet> they will be his chosen people

[20:15] <DWROB> not the flood -- wrong!

[20:16] <tau> believe in him and don't sin and he will protect them

[20:16] <vav> obey me and

[20:16] <lambda> if they are pure, god will not punish them

[20:16] <mu> if the have faith he will spare them

[20:16] <psi> protect

[20:16] <rho> follow his word

[20:16] <eta> he will never destroy humankind again

[20:16] <DWROB> tau: good ...

[20:16] <gamma> the must keep their faith in God

[20:16] <psi> believe

[20:16] <iota> Adam and eve

[20:16] <iota> faith and worship

[20:16] <DWROB> So god promises to cause the Jews to prosper, to make of them a great nation ...

[20:16] <omega> the law of Moses

[20:16] <omega> second was Jesus Christ

[20:16] <omega> the 10 commandment

[20:16] <omega> commandments

[20:16] <DWROB> If they ill do what?

[20:16] <chi> forgiveness

[20:16] <chi> never to do it again

[20:16] <chi> to obey and worship god, to try not to annoy him

[20:16] <chi> if they won't sin then he wont punish them

[20:16] <delta> he also spares them if they have sinned and repent

[20:16] <DWROB> If they will do what?

[20:16] <tau> ?

[20:16] <kappa> believe and not sin

[20:16] <tau> obey him and not sin?

[20:16] <xi> 10 commandments

[20:17] <psi> not to sin

[20:17] <rho> follow his word

[20:17] <mu> don't sin anymore

[20:17] <omicron> believe

[20:17] <vav> obey HIM

[20:17] <beta> it is called forgiveness

[20:17] <DWROB> What do the Jews do on their side?

[20:17] <upsilon> believe in Him

[20:17] <nu> Obey him

[20:17] <psi> worship him

[20:17] <DWROB> well, sin, OK, but specifically what?

[20:17] <tau> have faith

[20:17] <mu> have faith

[20:17] <dalet> have no idolatrous gods

[20:17] <yod> trust in him

[20:17] <omicron> follow him

[20:17] <beta> pray and ask forgiveness

[20:17] <DWROB> dalet: good

[20:17] <DWROB> forsake other gods, trust in the Lord ONLY

[20:17] <psi> awe

[20:17] <abc> worship him and God will protect and oversee

[20:17] <beta> yes

[20:17] <psi> so He is all powerful

[20:17] <tau> oh ok

[20:17] <epsilon> faith in god

[20:17] <epsilon> if they worship and have faith he will never destroy earth

[20:17] <epsilon> obey, worship him

[20:17] <phi> worship me, get into heaven

[20:17] <phi> not sin

[20:17] <mu> obey only him

[20:18] <aleph> there is no promise of heaven

[20:18] <xi> obey him

[20:18] <xi> ok

[20:18] <sigma> if they are faithful, he will provide and protect

[20:18] <sigma> not sin

[20:18] <sigma> believe

[20:18] <DWROB> right, heaven is a much later idea

[20:18] <delta> monotheism

[20:18] <DWROB> The covenant is all about EARTH and life there

[20:18] <iota> abide by the laws of the lord

[20:18] <iota> worship him and do not sin

[20:18] <DWROB> about human behavior

[20:18] <DWROB> ethics

[20:18] <DWROB> right conduct

[20:18] <omega> be his people

[20:18] <omega> i am your god and ye are my people

[20:18] <upsilon> violence

[20:18] <delta> morals

[20:18] <DWROB> yes

[20:18] <gamma> morality

[20:18] <DWROB> morals

[20:19] <chi> fallow his rules

[20:19] <chi> they aren't supposed to kill each other

[20:19] <DWROB> morals too

[20:19] <mu> have good morals

[20:19] <rho> the ten commandments

[20:19] <dalet> but one person's morals may not be another's

[20:19] <DWROB> OK, how does this compare to the god/man relation in Gilg?

[20:19] <vav> Can someone please give me the definition of the word "monotheism"

[20:19] <aleph> god sets the morals for his people

[20:19] <DWROB> vav: belief in a single god

[20:19] <tau> worship one god

[20:19] <DWROB> (that's easy)

[20:19] <beta> it doesn't matter what one persons moral are its Gods morals they should follow

[20:19] <nu> mean have to honor the different gods

[20:19] <omicron> they are supposed to be as much like god as possible

[20:19] <vav> Thanks

[20:19] <nu> make sacrifices

[20:19] <aleph> the god/man relationship in gilg is much more human based

[20:19] <DWROB> OK, how does this compare to the god/man relation in Gilg?

[20:19] <mu> honor thy god

[20:20] <tau> o too

[20:20] <phi> follow the commandments

[20:20] <dalet> some Gods in Gilgamesh showed favoritism

[20:20] <DWROB> What is the relation between god and man in Gilgamesh?

[20:20] <yod> one must learn to obey God

[20:20] <tau> obey them too

[20:20] <chi> we see a more personal side of this God

[20:20] <rho> many gods

[20:20] <dalet> Gil was half god

[20:20] <aleph> they interact almost like they are equal - they are able to kill gods

[20:20] <delta> because humans were not much and here they are

[20:20] <vav> There isn't one.

[20:20] <kappa> obey god(s)

[20:20] <mu> respect them and believe in their power

[20:20] <beta> not true ...

[20:20] <DWROB> Or look at Enki --

[20:20] <aleph> humans in the bible are never on the same level as God

[20:20] <lambda> wasn't one one

[20:20] <abc> following the commandments are everyone's morals ... .or should be

[20:20] <upsilon> Gilg was half god

[20:20] <DWROB> he creates human beings, but what does he think about them?

[20:20] <eta> The gods in Gilgamesh looked at humans as beings there to serve them.. they didn't care about them. int he Hebrew bible God grieves when the humans disobey him

[20:20] <vav> You are lesser that I kind of attitude.

[20:20] <mu> weak inferior

[20:20] <tau> bothersome

[20:20] <chi> they work for the gods

[20:20] <chi> they are their servants

[20:21] <DWROB> eta: Excellent

[20:21] <rho> children

[20:21] <xi> Are the 10 commandments a covenant?

[20:21] <xi> oh ok

[20:21] <xi> God loves the people in the Bible

[20:21] <omicron> he thinks they are slaves

[20:21] <beta> god and man in Gil co-habited, not the case in the Bible

[20:21] <gamma> they are mere servants

[20:21] <upsilon> that they will mess up

[20:21] <kappa> inferior

[20:21] <sigma> morals

[20:21] <sigma> belief in one god

[20:21] <sigma> not much

[20:21] <vav> very little.

[20:21] <DWROB> The old gods don't give a flip about human beings

[20:21] <beta> true

[20:21] <kappa> true

[20:21] <tau> don't them ten commandments come later?

[20:21] <aleph> they were annoyed with them

[20:21] <abc> very true

[20:21] <mu> they are their servants

[20:21] <dalet> humans are inferior

[20:21] <DWROB> The Hebrew god, for whatever wacky reason, needs human beings

[20:21] <mu> y

[20:21] <DWROB> there is a partnership

[20:21] <aleph> because he created them

[20:21] <vav> to believe.

[20:21] <abc> they are his people

[20:21] <aleph> he needs someone to serve him

[20:21] <tau> so it would be more believable?

[20:21] <DWROB> evidently

[20:21] <dalet> like i said before, he can become jealous too

[20:21] <mu> to have faith in him

[20:21] <beta> HE created them!

[20:21] <chi> they are inferior

[20:21] <delta> he needs followers to spread the faith

[20:22] <omicron> maybe he wants them to do good since he created them

[20:22] <eta> to boost self esteem kind of ...

[20:22] <vav> Self creating the Idea of one God.

[20:22] <DWROB> chi: yes and no

[20:22] <beta> God does not get jealous

[20:22] <lambda> he created them in his image so he needs them

[20:22] <epsilon> you have to believe in the morals of the gods

[20:22] <epsilon> he doesn't care for the humans

[20:22] <DWROB> God wants and needs human beings -- they matter -- it's a new idea

[20:22] <psi> He created them

[20:22] <psi> in his image

[20:22] <kappa> interesting idea

[20:22] <DWROB> This is no longer a universe ruled by fate

[20:22] <gamma> to glorify him

[20:22] <aleph> he is like humans - people need people - god needs people

[20:22] <dalet> yes he does. he did not like the people building the tower

[20:22] <DWROB> Now, if people obey god, they will prosper

[20:22] <omega> i agree

[20:22] <omega> yeah, if there were any

[20:22] <omega> no, he wants them to worship him

[20:22] <omega> yeah

[20:22] <mu> but by faith

[20:22] <eta> all gods are jealous ... even in the Hebrew bible. god states he is a jealous god

[20:22] <DWROB> if they disobey, they are punished

[20:22] <abc> why do they all of a sudden matter??

[20:22] <dalet> god came down from heaven and the people did not even notice him

[20:22] <rho> yes

[20:22] <kappa> yeah

[20:22] <nu> makes sense

[20:22] <yod> true

[20:23] <rho> must learn his ways

[20:23] <gamma> it's sounds like an easy line in life to choose

[20:23] <psi> i agree

[20:23] <chi> they act as his companions they give him something to to so God isn't bored

[20:23] <upsilon> if one disobeys they are all punished though

[20:23] <vav> what about the people that obeyed but was still "tested"

[20:23] <tau> so Gilg and this both have fear of their god or gods

[20:23] <DWROB> abc: because this is a major evolutionary leap in religious history, however you account for it

[20:23] <omega> he doesn't need followers, just wants them

[20:23] <delta> you either believe and prosper or don't and suffer

[20:23] <DWROB> This is the birth of FREE WILL

[20:23] <DWROB> and the birth of a new concept of history---

[20:23] <abc> ok thank

[20:23] <beta> of course He didn't like them building the tower, they were trying to have too much control

[20:23] <dalet> that's why he gave them all new languages, tell me that's not jealousy. worship him or nothing

[20:23] <DWROB> history, not fate

[20:23] <gamma> hence imperfection is introduced

[20:23] <aleph> Eve had free will

[20:23] <nu> you can chose to obey God or not

[20:23] <sigma> what changed how the gods felt about humans?

[20:23] <DWROB> human beings shape history through their conduct

[20:23] <abc> that makes sense

[20:24] <kappa> interesting

[20:24] <beta> i agree

[20:24] <DWROB> they are not helpless victims of indifferent fate

[20:24] <beta> they created their fate

[20:24] <psi> i understand

[20:24] <rho> They make their own bed

[20:24] <DWROB> sigma: I don't try to imagine what gods think!

[20:24] <tau> ok ... this makes since

[20:24] <psi> so now they have to sleep in it

[20:24] <DWROB> But ai can reads the stories and make sense of them

[20:24] <psi> i wish i could

[20:24] <beta> exactly mora

[20:24] <abc> they create their fate with the decisions they make ... obey or disobey

[20:24] <DWROB> Anyway, this is new stuff

[20:24] <mu> they control their own fate

[20:25] <beta> what new stuff?

[20:25] <dalet> free will but consequences

[20:25] <delta> their based on morals if you have any

[20:25] <DWROB> Monotheism focuses attention on human conduct in an ethical sense.

[20:25] <beta> okay ...

[20:25] <kaf> He also gives them a chance to redeem themselves when they disobey

[20:25] <mu> only one god to please which is easy

[20:25] <DWROB> another basic point now ... ..

[20:25] <DWROB>

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[20:25] <abc> its all about the worship of one God

[20:25] <DWROB> Bible is a document of faith, not a book of science or history.

[20:25] <DWROB> Hebrew history is history seen through faith. The Bible's contents

[20:25] <DWROB> have been selected and shaped in order to promote certain religious

[20:25] <DWROB> and ethical ends.

[20:25] <gamma> but why would a god who wanted perfection and purity introduce free will

[20:25] <DWROB>

[20:26] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:26] <rho> it is safety protocol to get the species alive

[20:26] <DWROB> gamma: good question ...

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[20:26] <omega> repentance

[20:26] <DWROB> god wants humans to be holy, like him (that is, ethical)

[20:26] <DWROB> that's the goal

[20:26] <delta> doesn't ethics began when you are young

[20:26] <beta> he didn't introduce free will

[20:26] <DWROB> A new, very weird goal historically

[20:26] <vav> but we have the choice.

[20:26] <beta> Eve started the "snowball" effect when she ate of the tree of knowledge

[20:26] <kappa> he wants people to make up their own mind as long as it is the right choice?

[20:26] <aleph> if he made them perfect, even with free will they should have always obeyed

[20:26] <DWROB> OK, as I was saying --

[20:26] <lambda> god wants those to chose him

[20:26] <mu> do he want to see if they keep their promise?

[20:26] <dalet> to show if they truly obey him because of fear or because of love

[20:27] <aleph> maybe he didn't make humans perfect

[20:27] <DWROB> I think it misses the point to try to read the bible as a history book

[20:27] <abc> i agree with making up your own mind

[20:27] <beta> i agree dr rob

[20:27] <DWROB> it is primarily the founding document of a new religion

[20:27] <omega> we'll never know

[20:27] <omega> dido

[20:27] <DWROB> it is meant to foster faith

[20:27] <sigma> I didn't ask what God thinks

[20:27] <aleph> it has moral stories

[20:27] <DWROB> and is to be read for that purpose above all else

[20:27] <delta> It is hard to read it from a historical stand point when you are taught it from the beginning

[20:27] <rho> themes and lessons

[20:27] <gamma> a guideline for life?

[20:27] <tau> right, i agree

[20:27] <DWROB> yes

[20:27] <aleph> good for teaching children right and wrong sometimes

[20:27] <DWROB> for life.

[20:27] <vav> ok

[20:28] <beta> except that parts of the old test. were meant to be laws that Jews are supposed to follow

[20:28] <delta> yes

[20:28] <eta> every story has a moral.. like a fable..

[20:28] <yod> good instruction manual for life

[20:28] <eta> maybe?

[20:28] <psi> yes

[20:28] <abc> it is a guideline for life

[20:28] <DWROB> But it annoys me no end when people try to turn it into a modern style history or science text, and ignore the moral and theological teaching

[20:28] <omicron> so you are supposed to read it to see how to live your life?

[20:28] <psi> it is what we go by

[20:28] <DWROB> The Jews would have been very surprised by such an approach

[20:28] <aleph> what do you mean history book?

[20:28] <gamma> what worked then wouldn't work now

[20:28] <DWROB> Remember -- the Bible was assembled at a specific time and place for a specific purpose

[20:28] <abc> a agree

[20:28] <DWROB> to consolidate the Jewish nation

[20:29] <DWROB> after the Babylonian exile

[20:29] <psi> who is trying to turn it into modern style history

[20:29] <dalet> the Jews would have been surprised by what a lot of modern day Christians do

[20:29] <DWROB> psi -- some fundamentalists

[20:29] <rho> each book of the bible serves a purpose for that time

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[20:29] <psi> ok thanks

[20:29] <DWROB> seems that makes for sloppy reading, in my view, anyway

[20:29] <omega> of the religion

[20:29] <omega> not only children but people

[20:29] <beta> good Q & A

[20:29] <epsilon> yep

[20:29] <epsilon> that's weird how it has changed perspective

[20:29] <vav> It is a hard read.

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[20:29] <sigma> it is not meant to be a timeline of events

[20:29] <sigma> it wasn't compiled over time, then added on to like history books

[20:30] <abc> yes

[20:30] <aleph> everyone knows that history from that time even to the 20th century is not correct when written specifically by the nation they are talking about

[20:30] <DWROB> As was clear last week, the purpose of the stories is specifically Jewish, so that even OLD myths and tales can be re-used, for new purposes

[20:30] <kappa> makes sense

[20:30] <DWROB> aleph: but correctness is not the issue or standard in the bible

[20:30] <dalet> how can the bible be a modern style history, i thought it wasn't written in order

[20:30] <DWROB> faith is

[20:30] <eta> ahhh yes

[20:30] <beta> its NOT for history purposes!

[20:30] <DWROB> conduct is

[20:30] <DWROB> morality

[20:30] <DWROB> holiness

[20:30] <aleph> everyone wants to sound better. the Jews told their stories, not to show they were defeated at the time but to teach lessons

[20:31] <DWROB> aleph: yes

[20:31] <delta> the Hebrew Bible is probably the oldest book around?

[20:31] <rho> who's to say they are not talking about the same events

[20:31] <beta> called a parable..

[20:31] <aleph> there are older books

[20:31] <abc> good point

[20:31] <iota> its a document of morality and spirituality

[20:31] <iota> morality

[20:31] <phi> hello?

[20:31] <DWROB> delta: not at all -- the material read last week and the week before was much older

[20:31] <beta> we talked about that last week Gilgamesh is older lit ...

[20:31] <DWROB> yod: no greets

[20:31] <yod> sorry

[20:31] <delta> that's interesting to know if some of the stories ran together

[20:32] <epsilon> ya i agree

[20:32] <psi> some of them do run together

[20:32] <DWROB> OK, it's time to talk now about the editing and composition process

[20:32] <omega> yea

[20:32] <DWROB> The consensus scholarly view is not the traditional view that Moses wrote the first five books, for example.

[20:32] <dalet> were we supposed to read songs of songs? no one has talked about that

[20:32] <DWROB> The consensus is something called the Documentary Hypothesis ...

[20:33] <DWROB> which supposes that editors adapted earlier written and oral works into the bible we now have.

[20:33] <beta> which means what exactly?

[20:33] <DWROB> This happened about 600 BC

[20:33] <kappa> He didn't write but edited and compiled?

[20:33] <aleph> oral tradition changed to written tradition

[20:33] <DWROB> They wrote some of it as they went along

[20:33] <kappa> ok

[20:33] <DWROB> both editing and writing

[20:33] <rho> like the dead sea scrolls

[20:33] <beta> no surprise there

[20:33] <tau> like adapted gilg to the Hebrew bible

[20:33] <DWROB> And scholarship has teased out the different strands form the different writers

[20:33] <aleph> so they changed things according to the contemporary times

[20:33] <tau> or ideas from gilg

[20:33] <vav> So could the Bible be fiction instead of Fact?

[20:33] <DWROB> tau: exactly

[20:34] <delta> Maybe like the Arabian Nights myths passed down to teach morality

[20:34] <abc> that sounds right

[20:34] <nu> hmm

[20:34] <DWROB> vav: if it is a work of faith, not history, it makes no sense to speak of fact and fiction

[20:34] <omega> cool;

[20:34] <omega> press printers??

[20:34] <DWROB> delta: not very convincingly, I have to say!

[20:34] <kappa> its all about adapting stories to help your point

[20:34] <epsilon> that interesting

[20:34] <epsilon> to fill in what they didn't know?

[20:34] <DWROB> epsilon: to keep the basic themes consistent and centered

[20:35] <mu> wow

[20:35] <dalet> but has it not been proven some of the historical facts were true?

[20:35] <yod> why can't it be used for both?

[20:35] <DWROB> There are thought to be four major voices or threads running through the first five books ... .

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[20:35] <aleph> like what?

[20:35] <DWROB>

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[20:35] <DWROB> The Pentateuch is a compilation of four identifiable documents:

[20:35] <DWROB> J -- the Jahwist (Yahwist) document (ca. 10th cent. BCE)

[20:35] <DWROB> E -- the Elohist document (ca. 10th cent. BCE)

[20:35] <DWROB> D -- the Deuteronomist document (ca. 8th cent. BCE)

[20:35] <DWROB> P -- the Priestly document (ca. 5th cent. BCE)

[20:35] <DWROB>

[20:35] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:35] <DWROB> These are distinguished in part by the names used for God

[20:36] <phi> make it so that your people will believe what u want them to believe

[20:36] <DWROB> The editors wove together these originals, and you can still see the stitching.

[20:36] <beta> what does this mean?

[20:36] <DWROB> Pentateuch == first five books

[20:36] <mu> so they combined them

[20:36] <DWROB> the Torah, the Law of Moses

[20:36] <eta> oh wow

[20:36] <tau> oh ok

[20:36] <DWROB> mu: yes

[20:36] <omicron> so they were pieced together

[20:36] <aleph> they do change drastically in tone and style

[20:36] <DWROB> The most famous example is the dual creation stories

[20:36] <DWROB> The most famous example is the dual creation stories

[20:36] <delta> that is very interesting

[20:37] <kappa> I never realized that

[20:37] <DWROB> Let me give you an excerpt from the first one ...

[20:37] <chi> I'm I the only one who was kicked off the server?

[20:37] <eta> combined the stories, or combined ideas to each story?

[20:37] <rho> why would they do this

[20:37] <abc> i did not know that either

[20:37] <DWROB>

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[20:37] <DWROB> (1)

[20:37] <DWROB> 26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

[20:37] <DWROB> 27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

[20:37] <DWROB> 28: And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

[20:37] <DWROB> 29: And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

[20:37] <DWROB> 30: And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

[20:37] <DWROB>

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[20:37] <DWROB> read over that and consider the style as well as content

[20:38] <vav> OUR

[20:38] <DWROB> This is English -- we talk about things like style, even in the bible :-)

[20:38] <beta> poetic

[20:38] <DWROB> poetic -- but how?

[20:38] <nu> lots of repetition

[20:38] <DWROB> rep - -good

[20:38] <DWROB> what else?

[20:38] <aleph> it keeps repeating itself

[20:38] <kappa> patterns

[20:38] <omicron> its a mix between poetry and normal talk

[20:38] <phi> the Law

[20:38] <tau> gilg had repetition also

[20:38] <DWROB> law?

[20:38] <aleph> it talks about "we" in the beginning

[20:38] <delta> repetition and sincerity

[20:38] <DWROB> omicron: is it fancy or simple?

[20:38] <dalet> repetition

[20:39] <rho> simple

[20:39] <nu> simple

[20:39] <lambda> its simple

[20:39] <vav> simple

[20:39] <psi> Law

[20:39] <DWROB> is it matter of fact, or entertaining?

[20:39] <omicron> simple i guess

[20:39] <mu> simple

[20:39] <psi> simple

[20:39] <iota> stressing the importance of the Earth

[20:39] <abc> very basic

[20:39] <omega> me too

[20:39] <nu> the matter of fact

[20:39] <aleph> entertaining

[20:39] <tau> entertaining

[20:39] <beta> a mix of those 2 ideas

[20:39] <DWROB> :-)

[20:39] <vav> not sure

[20:39] <psi> yes it is entertaining

[20:39] <lambda> both

[20:39] <omicron> matter of fact

[20:39] <gamma> straight to the point

[20:39] <DWROB> when you compare it to the next example, you'll see what I am getting at

[20:39] <iota> simple

[20:39] <delta> simple but it has an minor sincerity about it

[20:39] <beta> matter of faith , not fact

[20:39] <vav> a little boring.

[20:39] <DWROB> gamma: yes

[20:39] <epsilon> ya repetition

[20:39] <epsilon> simple

[20:39] <epsilon> matter of fact

[20:39] <psi> simple

[20:39] <aleph> it keeps stressing what was created and for who it was created for

[20:39] <DWROB> boring? or dignified, stately

[20:40] <kappa> simple

[20:40] <chi> They use a lot of repetition

[20:40] <chi> are some of the sentences run ons

[20:40] <DWROB> aleph: yes, it hammers every point home

[20:40] <dalet> entertaining

[20:40] <rho> dignified

[20:40] <kappa> stately

[20:40] <psi> dignified

[20:40] <tau> not boring

[20:40] <psi> i don't find it boring

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[20:40] <beta> makes sense to "pound" it in

[20:40] <iota> dignified

[20:40] <DWROB> This is an example of the P document -- the priestly document, the part actually written by the priestly editors

[20:40] <delta> why are there specific numbers and words stressed so often?

[20:40] <rho> was this Moses voice

[20:41] <aleph> to say who life was created?

[20:41] <DWROB> delta: traditions of various sorts, including numerological mysticism

[20:41] <kaf> stately

[20:41] <mu> the first piece that was put together

[20:41] <delta> oh

[20:41] <DWROB> Now compare this next example, a few verses later ... .

[20:41] <omega> it is written as though man is meant to be the protector of the land and skies

[20:41] <omega> i think both in a way

[20:41] <DWROB>

[20:41] Last message repeated 3 time(s).

[20:41] <DWROB> (2)

[20:41] <DWROB> 4: These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

[20:41] <DWROB> 5: And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

[20:41] <DWROB> 6: But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

[20:41] <DWROB> 7: And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

[20:41] <DWROB> 8: And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

[20:41] <DWROB> 9: And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

[20:41] <DWROB>

[20:41] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:41] <DWROB> again, consider both style and content

[20:42] <chi> boring

[20:42] <chi> there is no need for the repetition, they don't repeat anything important

[20:42] <aleph> very different

[20:42] <psi> and they ate the apple

[20:42] <nu> it is more detailed

[20:42] <DWROB> could that be any more different?

[20:42] <epsilon> stately

[20:42] <mu> no repetition

[20:42] <vav> more entertaining

[20:42] <rho> same element or theme

[20:42] <abc> its odd

[20:42] <omicron> that seems more plain

[20:42] <sigma> dignified

[20:42] <aleph> this basically explains step by step how God made life

[20:42] <psi> more basic

[20:42] <tau> not as poetic

[20:42] <kappa> different

[20:42] <nu> and more God almighties

[20:42] <aleph> and in what order it happened

[20:42] <mu> same theme but a wider concept

[20:42] <dalet> he gave more detail in the creation. what's numerological

[20:42] <DWROB> what kind of story does it sound like?

[20:42] <abc> yes very bland

[20:43] <gamma> it shows the detail and importance of creation

[20:43] <tau> a creation story

[20:43] <dalet> epic

[20:43] <vav> step be step

[20:43] <lambda> creation

[20:43] <yod> folk tale maybe?

[20:43] <DWROB> creation., duh!

[20:43] <psi> the creation of earth

[20:43] <delta> more detailed same style

[20:43] <aleph> a manual

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[20:43] <rho> bible story

[20:43] <DWROB> double duh!

[20:43] <nu> it is meant to entertain and educate

[20:43] <DWROB> I mean in general -- who do you imagine as the teller, the audience?

[20:43] <psi> it is meant to teach

[20:43] <iota> The describing of how god created the earth

[20:43] <DWROB> teach -- good

[20:43] <beta> finally a duh!

[20:43] <mu> reasoning

[20:43] <aleph> one sounds like a poem, the other like a fact

[20:43] <gamma> the repetition can signify the detail and attention to each and every aspect of creation

[20:44] <rho> I mean it is basic so children can understand

[20:44] <nu> the teller sounds like a preacher

[20:44] <DWROB> children -- excellent

[20:44] <omicron> The audience is whoever god created

[20:44] <yod> it is simple for all to understand

[20:44] <phi> simple

[20:44] <phi> creation

[20:44] <kappa> audience is mankind

[20:44] <lambda> the audience is for everyone

[20:44] <DWROB> it sounds like a fairy tale, folk tale, with funny little entertaining details

[20:44] <tau> Sunday school these days

[20:44] <DWROB> explanations to hold the audience'

[20:44] <DWROB> s interest

[20:44] <delta> small children

[20:44] <aleph> all the stories are for children -

[20:44] <DWROB> little asides

[20:44] <mu> keep them interested

[20:44] <psi> so people can teach children where they will understand it

[20:44] <delta> I picture it in the kids story bible as the first story

[20:44] <abc> easy reading

[20:44] <DWROB> nothing like the super-dignified story in the first case

[20:44] <omega> it's like it is being told as a tail tale

[20:44] <omega> like Canterbury

[20:44] <omega> real different

[20:45] <aleph> if you learn them as children you know them as adults then you pass it to your children

[20:45] <DWROB> yes

[20:45] <epsilon> same theme, less repetitive

[20:45] <epsilon> more poetic

[20:45] <epsilon> creation

[20:45] <epsilon> it sounds taught rather than matter of fact

[20:45] <chi> not repetitive, more stately style this time

[20:45] <chi> More interesting

[20:45] <chi> like something you would tell someone

[20:45] <chi> people remember things that they find interesting better so maybe that is why this style is more entertaining

[20:45] <kappa> one for adult one for children?

[20:45] <sigma> doesn't paint a picture like the first example did

[20:45] <sigma> we are the audience, so we can learn how we were formed

[20:45] <dalet> easy to understand

[20:45] <DWROB> what about the contradictions to the first story?

[20:45] <dalet> easy to recite

[20:45] <aleph> it talks about man being made from dust

[20:45] <eta> it HAS to be easy to understand if you want even the dumbest people to lean from them

[20:45] <omicron> easier to interpret

[20:45] <DWROB> heh

[20:45] <aleph> it does not put man above animals

[20:45] <mu> he grew every tree that is good for food

[20:45] <omicron> easier

[20:45] <dalet> let "us" make man in our image

[20:46] <kaf> A priest

[20:46] <yod> literacy was not widespread back then

[20:46] <DWROB> dalet: sure, the us/our has occasioned a lot of tortured explanations ...

[20:46] <tau> wouldn't repetition make it easier for us to ?understand and remember

[20:46] <abc> true

[20:46] <DWROB> tau: I think it's more to create a dignified, awesome effect in the first case

[20:46] <beta> that he's trying to make

[20:46] <delta> it is like He is showing that he made the plants and trees without any help then he put man on the earth to tend to this

[20:46] <tau> ah ... got it

[20:46] <DWROB> by contradiction I meant the way man is created --

[20:47] <omega> has to be some what entertaining

[20:47] <DWROB> jointly male and female in one case ...

[20:47] <rho> news article that has been jazzed up

[20:47] <DWROB> and in the other

[20:47] <beta> that's the point he's trying to make

[20:47] <xi> time it took to create everything

[20:47] <aleph> didn't catch that one

[20:47] <DWROB> first Adam, then later Eve ... from his rib! Yikes!

[20:47] <mu> man needs a companion

[20:47] <dalet> ever heard of Lilith?

[20:47] <DWROB> Very startling differences

[20:47] <mu> so he created eve

[20:47] <psi> differences

[20:47] <DWROB> but later

[20:47] <vav> so she may be next to his heart

[20:48] <delta> yea Adam from dust and Eve from a rib

[20:48] <phi> easier to read

[20:48] <DWROB> vav: OK, but the fact remains we have two very different accounts side by side.

[20:48] <rho> one and the same

[20:48] <chi> here god doesn't give Adam and Eve control over all the plants

[20:48] <chi> they have limitations

[20:48] <chi> They weren't repeating key facts though

[20:48] <chi> Man was given less control, or free will

[20:48] <sigma> the first story entailed reasoning behind what human beings owe back to God and the earth

[20:48] <sigma> the second story says that man is created from the dirt

[20:48] <dalet> that is different. in our image, and then from a rib

[20:48] <DWROB> These contradictions are all over the place -- duel versions of stories, and that bothers some people ...

[20:48] <DWROB> My question is, why did the editors leave both versions in ?

[20:48] <delta> I'm not following

[20:48] <nu> as it should

[20:48] <DWROB> Why didn't they try to reconcile them?

[20:49] <beta> yeah, that's why reading this requires faith

[20:49] <DWROB> smooth over the differences?

[20:49] <DWROB> Simplify?

[20:49] <vav> to have a mixture.

[20:49] <gamma> to show how side was accounted for

[20:49] <aleph> because they weren't trying to record history

[20:49] <omicron> how are you supposed to know which one is true?

[20:49] <aleph> they were teaching a lesson

[20:49] <nu> because it was part of the original

[20:49] <dalet> this has puzzled me for some time

[20:49] <kappa> trying to teach a lesson

[20:49] <DWROB> aleph: Ah! you are getting it

[20:49] <yod> can't they both be true?

[20:49] <tau> to show the differences

[20:49] <psi> why cant they

[20:49] <DWROB> yod: yes

[20:49] <mu> faith

[20:50] <delta> it didn't have to be exact like science it was based on morals and ethics

[20:50] <DWROB> but not in a historical sense -- as items of tradition, teaching, folklore, myth, yes -- they can both be valued

[20:50] <gamma> you must make a choice in your beliefs

[20:50] <omega> a companion for the lonely creation

[20:50] <dalet> I've heard Adam and eve were not the first. because of this scripture

[20:50] <omicron> so the writings are of what different people believed

[20:50] <epsilon> that is kinda bothersome

[20:50] <epsilon> they don't know which is the truth

[20:50] <DWROB> dalet: that's not in the text at hand, though

[20:50] <DWROB> epsilon: better yet: they don't care!

[20:50] <iota> both points

[20:50] <xi> isn't the creation of woman from the taking of the ribs symbolism

[20:50] <xi> no proof

[20:50] <dalet> that's why i mentioned Lilith

[20:50] <aleph> maybe they originally thought of these as stories and they did not need to match perfectly together

[20:50] <chi> All the men who sin in later stories are men, but here it is Eve who does the 1st sin

[20:50] <chi> Because different people respond differently and leaving both in will reach more people

[20:50] <aleph> maybe this didn't start as such a religious thing

[20:51] <DWROB> aleph: at least in one narrow sense of religious

[20:51] <mu> so more people can understand

[20:51] <sigma> its better to offer up multiple choices of thought, than none at all

[20:51] <DWROB> what impresses me is how much respect the editors had for their sources.

[20:51] <nu> when the stories were first created they didn't have to be entertaining

[20:51] <aleph> respect?

[20:51] <abc> more people can understand it

[20:51] <beta> i agree dr rob

[20:51] <DWROB> They left the inconsistencies alone, event hough they were combining them into a new whole

[20:51] <tau> respect because they didn't combine them?

[20:51] <tau> oh ok

[20:51] <psi> oh ok

[20:51] <DWROB> They were working with texts they regarded as sacred, and they didn't want to mess around with them

[20:52] <beta> they edited it through their faith

[20:52] <delta> I see the respect in Gilgamesh and Hebrew Bible because of how they refer to God and Gods

[20:52] <kappa> They were doing religious work and did not want to mess things up

[20:52] <DWROB> They had tremendous respect for the text

[20:52] <gamma> if they didn't you couldn't see the different sides to the stories

[20:52] <rho> like the dead sea scrolls

[20:52] <beta> gods, not Gods

[20:52] <DWROB> exactly. kappa

[20:52] <aleph> they believed probably more in this than people today then.

[20:52] <beta> they knew it would be read for years to come

[20:52] <mu> ok

[20:52] <aleph> they believed enough or had faith enough that it didn't matter

[20:52] <abc> good point

[20:52] <beta> and for people to base their faith in Him upon

[20:53] <DWROB> I think their integrity sets a good standard for us as readers of literature today, and not just the Bible.

[20:53] <kappa> yeah

[20:53] <dalet> respect for all

[20:53] <sigma> why would they have had so much respect for their sources?

[20:53] <sigma> but shouldn't the truth be more important?

[20:53] <rho> print the truth

[20:53] <DWROB> We are trying to see what's really there, and deal with that, not squeezing it into something we would prefer it to be

[20:53] <delta> I agree it makes it different than just another story or book or reading

[20:53] <iota> true\

[20:53] <aleph> then why do we try to figure out what a writer was trying to say instead of just taking what is written at face value?

[20:53] <vav> yes

[20:53] <mu> i agree

[20:53] <beta> that's a good way to look at it

[20:53] <DWROB> aleph: interpretation is always necessary ...

[20:54] <epsilon> they left them the way they were

[20:54] <vav> It is hard to look at in that respect.

[20:54] <gamma> does it symbolize free will and the ability of one to draw there own conclusions

[20:54] <DWROB> but that doesn't mean you have to make everything add up

[20:54] <DWROB> It may not add up.

[20:54] <aleph> but you can interpret things so differently

[20:54] <chi> because god likes uniqueness

[20:54] <kappa> Everyone has their own interpretation

[20:54] <dalet> it doesn't add up

[20:54] <DWROB> When we talk about Job and Jonah, you will see that a DIALOG was going on withing Judaism,

[20:54] <delta> It doesn't add up I don't think it would be as interesting to read

[20:54] <omega> so just dealing with the here and now.. and not the later

[20:54] <DWROB> people disagreed, were arguing

[20:54] <beta> faith and prayer fills in the blanks

[20:54] <DWROB> there were different views and they ALL got into the Bible

[20:54] <DWROB> which pleases me as a literary scholar!

[20:55] <kappa> it would

[20:55] <dalet> now i understand

[20:55] <DWROB> But that's for next week.

[20:55] <mu> different views on something is a good thing

[20:55] <DWROB> Questions?????

[20:55] <abc> there should be different interpretations of the bible

[20:55] <aleph> there are

[20:55] <beta> there are

[20:55] <upsilon> no question here

[20:55] <delta> I understand more about the context now thanx

[20:55] <omega> confusing

[20:55] <dalet> but Christians will frown upon u telling the truth about the bible

[20:55] <DWROB> omega: so ask a question!

[20:55] <rho> get what you can from it

[20:56] <delta> and pass it on

[20:56] <beta> that not true

[20:56] <aleph> the stories teach lessons and are not always consistent with each other

[20:56] <beta> Christians BELIEVE b/c of their faith

[20:56] <abc> it can be confusing but you have to read it carefully

[20:56] <DWROB> I think that is fairly clear

[20:56] <aleph> the Bible as literature

[20:56] <eta> there is no exact "truth"

[20:56] <dalet> beta: duh

[20:56] <epsilon> so leave it the way it is and let faith make up the rest?

[20:56] <DWROB> eta: well, texts and truth seldom match up conveniently

[20:57] <DWROB> never, perhaps

[20:57] <beta> one person's truth may not be someone else!

[20:57] <delta> as long as there are preachers to teach from this book certain people will always believe

[20:57] <eta> yeah.. true

[20:57] <DWROB> Are we done?

[20:57] <dalet> this is not bible study

[20:57] <phi> doesn't this just cause more people to argue, cuz they choose to interpret the bible their own way

[20:57] <delta> yup

[20:57] <upsilon> yes sir

[20:57] <gamma> if you are

[20:57] <chi> Where does Satan appear from in Job?

[20:57] <DWROB> This has been a good discussion and good group tonight

[20:57] <mu> yes

[20:57] <aleph> yes

[20:57] <beta> i disagree

[20:57] <DWROB> chi: completely out of nowhere!

[20:57] <delta> I agree

[20:57] <omicron> thanks

[20:57] <DWROB> Job is a very late book, and Satan was a late idea

[20:57] <chi> we all interpret things in our own way, and it's better like that

[20:57] <theta> yes

[20:58] <yod> nothing further from me, gonna analyze for this class as text

[20:58] <abc> thanks, i agree

[20:58] <vav> It puts some new points on some old material ... that's for sure.

[20:58] <eta> Satan in never actually mentioned in the Hebrew bible

[20:58] <aleph> but we always think of him as the serpent

[20:58] <DWROB> yod: good

[20:58] <chi> thanks

[20:58] <DWROB> aleph: that is, of course, from later interpretation

[20:58] <DWROB> of much older texts

[20:58] <aleph> oh

[20:58] <delta> can we go

[20:58] <yod> i'll leave the interpretation views to my church and beliefs

[20:58] <DWROB> Yes! Scram!

[20:58] <DWROB> I'm done.

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[20:58] <kappa> ok

[20:58] <aleph> good night

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[20:58] <DWROB> Scram, that is

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[20:59] <omega> all my question really deal with the discussion next week, i really did not enjoy or rather i say like this part of the readings.

[20:59] <omega> yepppp

[20:59] <omega> next week

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[20:59] <DWROB> they took me literally

[20:59] <eta> haha

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[20:59] <DWROB> omega: how so?

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[21:00] <phi> question, tonight my computer dragged a lot more than the past few times, and i missed out on a lot of things because 20 lines would all pop up at once, something i can do about that?

[21:00] <phi> question, tonight my computer dragged a lot more than the past few times, and i missed out on a lot of things because 20 lines would all pop up at once, something i can do about that?

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[21:01] <DWROB> Probably not ... where are you logged on from?

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[21:01] <beta> dr. rob?

[21:02] <DWROB> I'm here

[21:02] <beta> i'm sorry to sort of whiny, but

[21:02] <beta> when you said it was a good discussion -- how so?

[21:02] <DWROB> The questions asked were helpful and we got where I wanted to go.

[21:02] <phi> hello?

[21:03] <beta> i just feel like there was a bunch of bull typed in tonight

[21:03] <DWROB> phi: I said -- Probably not ... where are you logged on from?

[21:03] <DWROB> beta: by me??

[21:03] <beta> no, by the class member

[21:03] <beta> s

[21:03] <beta> no, your questions were great

[21:03] <DWROB> Much bull, a few daisies in it -- that's fine with me

[21:04] <DWROB> It is more of a free for all than a physical classroom

[21:04] <beta> its just hard to concentrate with all the excess

[21:04] <DWROB> I'm used to it., I suppose

[21:04] <beta> i don't know ...

[21:04] <beta> are there always this many people in the class?

[21:04] <DWROB> yes -- sometimes they give me double section (80 people), which is really bananas

[21:05] <DWROB> We had about 30 tonight, which is manageable.

[21:05] <phi> my dorm, Sanford

[21:05] <phi> Sanford

[21:05] <DWROB> Just follow what I'm doing, and it will make sense

[21:05] <DWROB> phi: on campus, and from a dorm ...

[21:05] <DWROB> from school, I have also experienced horrible lag

[21:06] <DWROB> I'm at home sitting next to the server itself now, on a cable connection, and it's great

[21:06] <beta> i do ... just the same people typing the same thing over and over makes it difficult to move on

[21:06] <DWROB> I think the University network is the problem

[21:06] <DWROB> beta: I just ignore them!

[21:06] <beta> anywhoo ... what was the deal with the quizzes?

[21:06] <DWROB> Oh -- no quiz next week

[21:06] <beta> you said something was messed up?

[21:07] <DWROB> I'll remove one of the Odyssey quizzes

[21:07] <DWROB> on my side messed up -- nothing important for you

[21:07] <beta> oh okay, thanks!

[21:07] <DWROB> no problem

[21:07] <beta> see ya'll next week!

[21:07] <DWROB> later

[21:08] <DWROB> phi: people off campus seem to be getting better results

[21:08] <phi> but this was the first night I've really gotten it

[21:08] <phi> like the regular internet is working just fine, its just the chatroom

[21:08] <DWROB> I fear they may be doing some packet shaping aimed at IRC specifically -- I will talk to the head of networking and find out

[21:09] <DWROB> They throttle certain services involved in illegal file transfers

[21:09] <DWROB> IRC is one of those, perhaps -- I don't know their policy, but I imagine they'll tell me -- we are friends and work together

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