Chat: ENGL 2111 (World Literature I) Winter 2005

Chat 4: Hebrew Bible, Part 2

Hebrew Bible, Part 2

[00:00] --- Thu Jan 27 2005

[00:00] --- Fri Jan 28 2005

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[11:51] <beta> dr. rob are you in?

[11:53] <DWROB> You should be in #robotron because anything we discuss here is public

[11:56] <beta> its okay, I just wanted to make sure it was working b/c I am at my parents house in Beaufort, SC

[11:56] <DWROB> It works!

[11:57] <beta> my son had surgery this morning and I probably won't make it back to Statesboro tonight

[11:57] <beta> okay -- talk to you tonight!

[11:57] <DWROB> Well, I hope that the Internet doesn't present any additional problems. So far so good.

[11:58] <beta> i hope so too, they have DSL but sometimes it can be unreliable

[12:04] <beta> going to try one more time later ...

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[18:10] <beta> hi just dbl checking -- again!

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[18:57] <beta> hey ya'll

[18:57] <beta> ready for more heated debate?

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[19:45] <bet5> i

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[19:48] <vav> has everyone seen the odyssey info?

[19:48] <upsilon> no

[19:48] <upsilon> what is it?

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[19:55] Topic changed on #2111web by DWROB!DWROB@ Evolution of Ideas in the Hebrew Bible

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[19:58] <vav> LESS READING

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[19:59] <he> bla

[19:59] <delta> hello

[19:59] <DWROB> Good evening.

[19:59] <upsilon> hello

[19:59] <gamma> hello

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[20:00] <DWROB> First an announcement, already on the forum ...

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[20:00] <Anon2347> good evening

[20:00] <DWROB> I have reduced the amount of reading for next week by one hundred pages

[20:00] <beta> exciting!

[20:00] <bet5> good

[20:00] <DWROB> Please note the page listed on the forum

[20:00] <DWROB> pages

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[20:00] <kappa> ok

[20:00] <delta> thanksssss

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[20:00] <DWROB> The quiz is also open now

[20:01] <Anon2347> hey guys

[20:01] <DWROB> Tonight's topic is an appropriately *historical* one

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[20:01] <dalet> altogether we read 205 pgs?

[20:01] <theta> that's good

[20:01] <psi> good

[20:01] <DWROB> I'm interested in following how a set of ideas develops from early to late parts of the Hebrew Bible

[20:01] <psi> good

[20:02] <DWROB> First a little review

[20:02] <pi> like which ideas

[20:02] <DWROB> what is the main Jewish covenant?

[20:02] <vav> obey me

[20:02] <DWROB> not a covenant

[20:02] <tau> to worship god

[20:02] <kappa> Obey and worship only God and you will prosper

[20:02] <pi> worship God and only God and he'll be good to you

[20:02] <aleph> serve god and he will take care of you

[20:02] <nu> their covenant with God

[20:02] <bet5> obey God and you will prosper

[20:02] <DWROB> covenant==contract

[20:02] <beta> God will take care of you if you obey him

[20:02] <DWROB> better

[20:02] <he> to obey god whatever may happen

[20:02] <dalet> worship 1 god and he'll take care of u

[20:02] <DWROB> what's the flip side of that?

[20:02] <vav> not flood the earth

[20:02] <tau> he will not destroy them again if they obey

[20:02] <kaf> Obey and worship God and he will make you prosper

[20:02] <lambda> god cares for those who love him

[20:02] <dalet> damnation

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[20:02] <DWROB> if what?

[20:02] <bet5> disobey and be punished

[20:02] <rho> the rainbow

[20:02] <aleph> god doesn't care for you

[20:03] <delta> worship monotheistically

[20:03] <psi> worship only God and he will take care of you

[20:03] <nu> if man does good he will reward them

[20:03] <dalet> if u sin

[20:03] <nu> if they are bad he will punish them

[20:03] <kappa> disobey and find yourself in trouble

[20:03] <gamma> if man obeys god they will prosper

[20:03] <rho> never to destroy man by flood

[20:03] <dalet> if u don't obey hm

[20:03] <DWROB> OK, so each party int he contract has two prescribed ways of acting corresponding to each other

[20:03] <pi> if you don't obey God or worship other gods you might just feel his wrath

[20:03] <eta> if you keep faith you will be rewarded

[20:03] <kappa> yes

[20:03] <DWROB> Good.

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[20:03] <DWROB> This is ht covenant started between God and Abraham and fleshed out when he gives the law to Moses

[20:04] <DWROB> What sorts of things does God want people to do -- what's contained in "obey"?

[20:04] <dalet> don't lie

[20:04] <psi> don't sin against him

[20:04] <beta> only worship Him

[20:04] <tau> worship only one god (him)

[20:04] <phi> treat god with respect and he will do likewise

[20:04] <dalet> don't covet

[20:04] <kaf> Avoid evil

[20:04] <delta> serve Him and lead others to Him

[20:04] <rho> follow his word

[20:04] <he> worship only him

[20:04] <yod> worship no gods before him

[20:04] <aleph> to follow the laws he gives and do not worship any other gods

[20:04] <dalet> envy

[20:04] <gamma> worship him and him alone

[20:04] <pi> follow his laws, worship only him, sacrifice to only him

[20:04] <bet5> worship be faithful

[20:04] <DWROB> Good, no other Gods

[20:04] <kappa> Listen and worship only him

[20:04] <theta> to have faith in him and only him

[20:04] <psi> worship only him

[20:04] <vav> obey

[20:04] <tau> no false gods

[20:05] <lambda> don't idolize false gods

[20:05] <dalet> Idol Gods

[20:05] <eta> keep faith

[20:05] <DWROB> And the rest of the stuff is ethical behavior toward other people -- other Jews

[20:05] <pi> he lays down the laws with the ten commandments

[20:05] <kappa> yes

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[20:05] <delta> right morally

[20:05] <psi> yes

[20:05] <beta> yes - the commandments

[20:05] <xi> worship him

[20:05] <DWROB> There ar also holiness or purification rituals, of course, but the core is ethical, as in the 10 Commandments

[20:05] <kappa> yes

[20:05] <psi> yes

[20:06] <beta> agreed

[20:06] <gamma> yes

[20:06] <bet5> like circumcision

[20:06] <dalet> u mean like sacrifices

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[20:06] <delta> agreed

[20:06] <beta> sacrifice

[20:06] <DWROB> And why is this covenant remarkable historically?

[20:06] <he> because it is still lived by people today

[20:06] <rho> follows the stories in the bible

[20:06] <dalet> ?

[20:06] <DWROB> what's so special about it?

[20:06] <nu> because a god is showing interest in man

[20:06] <aleph> because it shows a change in the way God views humankind

[20:06] <bet5> it is a continuing covenant

[20:06] <tau> because it shaped how many people live now?

[20:06] <kappa> he recognizes people as something more than strictly servants

[20:06] <nu> and man's behavior

[20:06] <theta> because God and man work together

[20:06] <DWROB> good, as opposed to what?

[20:06] <omega> still having the Moses laws also

[20:06] <he> no direction at all

[20:06] <gamma> because it shows how mankind has been shaped

[20:06] <bet5> still followed today

[20:06] <pi> it was a monotheistic religion governed predominantly by pure moral choices

[20:06] <aleph> being annoyed at humans

[20:06] <dalet> as opposed to like the Greek gods

[20:06] <psi> still followed today

[20:07] <lambda> god and man have equal parts to the contract

[20:07] <rho> they control their fate

[20:07] <delta> because it is still lived by today

[20:07] <nu> to gods only concerned with being honored

[20:07] <DWROB> dalet: or the Sumerian ones

[20:07] <dalet> Hebrew god shows compassion

[20:07] <beta> because people started to take him seriously after that

[20:07] <DWROB> dalet: right, this God is actually interested in humans, needs them in some way

[20:07] <bet5> personal relationship

[20:07] <he> for what?

[20:07] <theta> he needs them to help carry out his plan

[20:07] <xi> oh ok

[20:07] <xi> it is still followed today

[20:07] <psi> to follow him

[20:07] <eta> and feels bad when his people don't worship him

[20:08] <gamma> because God created man to glorify him

[20:08] <DWROB> This also affects the way we understand how the world works. IN the old version, why do things happen in this world to people?

[20:08] <rho> to take care of his world

[20:08] <beta> the Master plan

[20:08] <aleph> because they are being tested

[20:08] <delta> because they don't do what they are supposed to

[20:08] <he> to strengthen them

[20:08] <beta> they don't obey him

[20:08] <kappa> because of sin

[20:08] <DWROB> tested?

[20:08] <eta> as a test

[20:08] <eta> ohhh

[20:08] <bet5> yes

[20:08] <kaf> because they disobey GOD

[20:08] <mu> to see if they will obey

[20:08] <tau> god's will

[20:08] <DWROB> no, old -- like Sumeria

[20:08] <gamma> to show them God's power

[20:08] <lambda> to prove if they will obey

[20:08] <chi> as opposed to all gods being indifferent about men and seeing them as servants

[20:08] <chi> because they made the gods angry

[20:08] <DWROB> polytheism

[20:08] <kaf> fate

[20:08] <DWROB> FATE

[20:08] <phi> it sets up the covenants to follow

[20:08] <he> to show respect to the gods

[20:08] <tau> the gods

[20:08] <rho> patience tested

[20:08] <kappa> fate

[20:08] <mu> power

[20:08] <theta> the gods directly influenced the earth

[20:08] <DWROB> FATE, bingo

[20:09] <mu> to show who really has the power

[20:09] <theta> this one needs humans to help influence people

[20:09] <DWROB> Fate is blind, indifferent to human desires of behavior. It just happens.

[20:09] <DWROB> The Greeks also have a version of this

[20:09] <dalet> i think Hebrew god want to know if people truly worship him because they want to or afraid

[20:09] <DWROB> What do the Hebrews substitute for fate?

[20:09] <beta> of a covenant?

[20:09] <nu> faith

[20:09] <tau> so there is no fate in the old test.?

[20:09] <aleph> faith in God

[20:09] <kaf> covenant

[20:09] <eta> faith

[20:09] <pi> the will of God

[20:09] <mu> faith

[20:09] <DWROB> tau: wait and see ...

[20:09] <beta> divine power

[20:09] <dalet> Hebrew god wants to know if he is worshiped even when things aren't going great

[20:09] <rho> they now control fate with their behavior

[20:09] <bet5> a belief in a promise

[20:09] <delta> willingness

[20:10] <kappa> sin and beliefs

[20:10] <omega> to do their jobs as protectors of the land basically and to carry out his works

[20:10] <omega> like job

[20:10] <omega> ohh

[20:10] <beta> master plan

[20:10] <lambda> belief

[20:10] <gamma> their beliefs

[20:10] <DWROB> rho: yes, but then it's not fate -- what is it?

[20:10] <mu> they have control over their fate

[20:10] <rho> faith

[20:10] <pi> the Will of God

[20:10] <psi> faith

[20:10] <DWROB> not just

[20:10] <psi> and the Will of God

[20:10] <DWROB> not just

[20:10] <bet5> following law

[20:10] <aleph> they control their actions and are responsible for what they do

[20:10] <DWROB> maybe not!

[20:10] <xi> punishment

[20:10] <xi> will of God

[20:10] <delta> faith with works

[20:10] <chi> beliefs

[20:10] <chi> free will

[20:10] <eta> working together with God also

[20:10] <kappa> results of actions

[20:10] <omega> WILL

[20:10] <DWROB> How about this: HISTORY

[20:11] <phi> fate

[20:11] <phi> faith

[20:11] <beta> not free will - Gods will

[20:11] <rho> yes

[20:11] <omega> yes

[20:11] <aleph> history of what?

[20:11] <DWROB> Events happen because of causes and effects over which man and God have collaborative control

[20:11] <bet5> true

[20:11] <pi> exactly

[20:11] <DWROB> history meaning the events that happen in the world

[20:11] <vav> okay

[20:11] <tau> ok

[20:11] <dalet> i understand now

[20:11] <kappa> yeah

[20:11] <he> so maybe this is the worlds test

[20:11] <DWROB> History, the story of human actions

[20:11] <beta> history before the covenant?

[20:11] <gamma> a guideline

[20:12] <rho> history tells of decision made by God and man

[20:12] <bet5> what happens to us is caused by god and what we do to him

[20:12] <DWROB> It is NOT governed principally at least by fate, but by humans

[20:12] <pi> the Sumerians believed it was just up to the gods while the Hebrews now believe that they have some choice in the matter too - if they're good, good stuff will happen

[20:12] <dalet> for example Adam and eve, cain and Abel

[20:12] <omega> will, that what makes god god, he gives man a choice of to obey or disobey

[20:12] <omega> that is the free will that Adam and eve had

[20:12] <DWROB> pi: yes

[20:12] <DWROB> Free will is much more important, is possible as a concept now

[20:12] <kappa> alright

[20:12] <psi> that is the free will Adam and eve took advantage of

[20:12] <xi> free will

[20:12] <xi> oh ok

[20:12] <xi> i see

[20:12] <DWROB> The Greeks don't have much room for such an idea

[20:12] <aleph> the Bible introduces free will immediately

[20:13] <rho> easier to follow if you have some say

[20:13] <DWROB> So ... next ...

[20:13] <beta> that's for sure

[20:13] <dalet> why not?

[20:13] <tau> cause they are in the hands of the gods?

[20:13] <kappa> free will is quite an interesting concept

[20:13] <bet5> it is not only by acts though, it is also a heart issue

[20:13] <tau> fate

[20:13] <DWROB> What will history look like, given the covenant we have?

[20:13] <DWROB> covenant

[20:13] <DWROB> how will it function?

[20:13] <aleph> who has?

[20:13] <omega> yeap

[20:13] <omega> they were not as opened willed i think

[20:13] <he> who will history function?

[20:13] <DWROB> will it be a steady-state, an upward swing of progress, or what?

[20:14] <bet5> predictable

[20:14] <kappa> if humans obey then they will prosper

[20:14] <rho> as a tool to show the covenant

[20:14] <tau> people will try to live a good life

[20:14] <DWROB> maybe!

[20:14] <dalet> unpredictable

[20:14] <DWROB> maybe not!

[20:14] <he> definitely not upward

[20:14] <delta> whatever route fate decides to take we have to follow

[20:14] <DWROB> not upward? ever? why not?

[20:14] <mu> not upward

[20:14] <vav> we will only serve one god

[20:14] <aleph> people are not always stable - everyone is different therefore everything will turn out different

[20:14] <chi> more chaotic

[20:14] <eta> no.. not upward at all..

[20:14] <he> not in the sense of Jobs case

[20:14] <gamma> it is hard to say

[20:14] <mu> maybe after something disastrous happened

[20:14] <lambda> different people will cause the world to change

[20:14] <he> look at then and where we are today

[20:14] <he> not much faith at all

[20:14] <DWROB> we know what happens if people obey, and if they disobey ... which do they do?

[20:14] <kappa> yes

[20:15] <aleph> The Bible show stability, upward progress and also a nation that gets into trouble

[20:15] <vav> both

[20:15] <mu> disobey

[20:15] <bet5> disobey

[20:15] <nu> what ever they choose

[20:15] <DWROB> both.

[20:15] <mu> mostly

[20:15] <kappa> their own personal choice

[20:15] <aleph> it is everything

[20:15] <dalet> both

[20:15] <he> most now choose to disobey

[20:15] <beta> they are disciplined

[20:15] <rho> must repent

[20:15] <DWROB> So history is cyclic, like a sine wave. This is the history of the Jews in the Bible.

[20:15] <pi> we have evolved in a progressive manner, when you cut Gods roll in the way the world turns down, man steps up and makes choices for himself

[20:15] <dalet> if u look at a lot of characters in bible, many had bad flaws

[20:15] <DWROB> They have high and low points repeatedly based on there adherence or deviation from the covenant

[20:15] <delta> i agree

[20:15] <kappa> makes sense

[20:15] <chi> i think it has been upward because of advances

[20:15] <chi> they choose to obey but you can't obey everything your told

[20:16] <beta> yeah

[20:16] <mu> yes

[20:16] <phi> motivation for people to do good in life

[20:16] <pi> free will is so apparent in today's society that a good portion of the world doesn't even believe in God

[20:16] <beta> sin -- repent -- disciplined -- and over again

[20:16] <rho> mans not perfect

[20:16] <DWROB> chi: the story in the Bible just shows the covenant working out in many cycles

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[20:16] <kappa> everything exists in cycles

[20:16] <he> a believe in some sort of God is needed in any society

[20:16] <DWROB> The editors emphasize this, interpreting Hebrew history in light of the covenant

[20:16] <mu> history repeats itself

[20:16] <DWROB> True

[20:17] <pi> its all about the covenant

[20:17] <xi> humans are not perfect and they are bound to make mistakes

[20:17] <xi> true

[20:17] <DWROB> pretty much

[20:17] <he> repeating

[20:17] <bet5> it is suppose to teach us a lesson

[20:17] <aleph> most nations hid their downfalls, did the Jews highlight it to show the importance of serving God?

[20:17] <psi> learn from out mistakes

[20:17] <DWROB> Now lets' see how all this applies to some examples from the text

[20:17] <dalet> although they 'sin', they use offerings

[20:17] <rho> we never learn from our mistakes

[20:17] <DWROB> aleph: absolutely -- very good point

[20:17] <bet5> sometimes we do

[20:17] <DWROB> history is seen to be teaching a moral lesson

[20:18] <mu> obey or be punished

[20:18] <DWROB> The first example is the Joseph story

[20:18] <bet5> if we sin it will lead us to tragedy

[20:18] <eta> yes.. the bad always are punished or lose

[20:18] <DWROB> How can this story be interested as being about the covenant between god and man?

[20:18] <mu> Joseph obeyed throughout his life despite his hardships he encountered

[20:18] <beta> God always protected him

[20:18] <psi> because Joseph obeyed God

[20:18] <delta> because it reflects a personal relationship between the both

[20:18] <vav> he followed god and was rewarded

[20:18] <gamma> Joseph committed his life to God and was blessed

[20:18] <tau> Joseph was good and forgave

[20:18] <aleph> Joseph was good to God. God made sure that in the end Joseph was alright

[20:18] <lambda> he has faith in god and is rewarded for it despite all he went through

[20:18] <kappa> Joseph chose to obey God and despite some suffering he prospered

[20:18] <mu> but he also was blessed as he obeyed

[20:19] <omicron> since Joseph was faithful he was made very rich and powerful

[20:19] <DWROB> Joseph is a good guy? He always obeys?

[20:19] <psi> but he always looked out for him

[20:19] <rho> faith in God

[20:19] <omega> such as a lamb

[20:19] <nu> when Joseph listened to God he always succeeded

[20:19] <he> he was a believer

[20:19] <psi> he kept his faith

[20:19] <dalet> although he went thru hardship, Joseph always worshiped and ended up the head

[20:19] <pi> a lot of bad stuff is thrown Josephs way but because hes a righteous man, God continues to give him that stroke of good luck at the right time, which eventually leads him to his high place in Egyptian society

[20:19] <bet5> Joseph got through everything because of his faith

[20:19] <beta> a firm believer

[20:19] <tau> sometimes, sometimes not ... .he kept his faith and asked for forgiveness

[20:19] <he> and god helped him in return

[20:19] <psi> He was still good to others after everything that happened

[20:19] <omicron> most of the time

[20:19] <rho> God does forgive

[20:19] <kappa> pretty much

[20:19] <chi> so we wont repeat our mistakes

[20:19] <chi> no matter what happened he knew it was gods plan

[20:19] <mu> he still fed his brothers and let them keep their money

[20:19] <DWROB> If Joseph is such a great guy, why do his brothers hate him?

[20:19] <tau> right, if you repent

[20:20] <tau> cause they are jealous

[20:20] <bet5> jealousy

[20:20] <pi> jealousy

[20:20] <dalet> true: he still had a deep love for his terrible brothers

[20:20] <kappa> because his father favors him?

[20:20] <gamma> they are jealous of Joseph

[20:20] <aleph> because his father loved him the most

[20:20] <beta> jealousy

[20:20] <mu> because he was favored by his father

[20:20] <DWROB> all true

[20:20] <yod> he still loved them

[20:20] <dalet> he was the apple of his fathers eye

[20:20] <lambda> Jealousy

[20:20] <he> jealousy

[20:20] <delta> jealousy

[20:20] <omicron> they are jealous that their father likes him better

[20:20] <theta> i agree, definitely some jealousy there

[20:20] <DWROB> But Joseph is also hard to put up with

[20:20] <rho> jealous

[20:20] <nu> because he was powerful

[20:20] <DWROB> he has a big head

[20:20] <DWROB> he tattles on his brothers

[20:20] <pi> that damn technicolored coat

[20:20] <mu> yes especially with his dreams

[20:20] <he> all people with power want it their way

[20:20] <aleph> he's a goody-goody

[20:20] <dalet> but that happens with siblings today also

[20:20] <beta> sometimes they deserved it

[20:20] <tau> because he knows his dad favors him

[20:20] <bet5> his father loves him more it seems

[20:20] <DWROB> he tells those dreams to them -- "I will rule over you someday"

[20:20] <omicron> he does that because it is good to be truthful

[20:21] <yod> machiavellian

[20:21] <DWROB> wouldn't you have thrown him in a pit, too?

[20:21] <eta> yes ... he is the favorite

[20:21] <lambda> he feels he is serving god this way

[20:21] <delta> maybe he knows what the repercussions are if he doesn't act good

[20:21] <bet5> egotistical but true

[20:21] <rho> yes

[20:21] <vav> yep

[20:21] <omicron> maybe god wants him to tell them

[20:21] <nu> oh yeah

[20:21] <kappa> there's a line between confidence and arrogance

[20:21] <dalet> no way

[20:21] <mu> maybe

[20:21] <tau> so he was cocky ... .he is still their bro

[20:21] <DWROB> heh

[20:21] <kappa> quite possibly

[20:21] <eta> maybe

[20:21] <aleph> that seems like fate then since that is exactly what happened

[20:21] <gamma> but his confidence was from his faith

[20:21] <pi> having visions of my rule over my brothers might give me a big head too

[20:21] <psi> yep yep

[20:21] <beta> no not just because he was blessed with visions

[20:21] <phi> sure

[20:21] <DWROB> OK, the point I am making is that Joseph is not entirely saintly; and his main failing is pride

[20:21] <psi> he always had his faith

[20:21] <dalet> this may have been a way god humbled him

[20:21] <DWROB> He is sure he is superior.

[20:22] <mu> he took away their pride

[20:22] <DWROB> This is somewhat similar to the state of the Jews in comparison to other nations

[20:22] <chi> yes Joseph is the best servant

[20:22] <chi> they are jealous

[20:22] <chi> he has proficiencies and they know that one day he will be better then them

[20:22] <pi> hes human of course hes not perfect

[20:22] <kappa> He is not a Saint but he is not terrible either

[20:22] <rho> God show him this

[20:22] <bet5> he is treated as superior by his father

[20:22] <DWROB> That will be a theme later, in Jonah, for instance

[20:22] <xi> they are jealous

[20:22] <eta> pride leads to many many downfalls in literature

[20:22] <pi> and maybe his pride is the reason God allows him to be thrown in a pit

[20:22] <aleph> yes, they believe they are worshiping the one true God and everyone else is false

[20:22] <delta> pride is not something you can have back in those times wasn't it a sin to be boastful

[20:22] <DWROB> And as for trusting in God -- yes, absolutely

[20:22] <omega> i think this story is more of fate than it would be of anything else it's like god had a hand in it but in the end a plan seemingly came together ... to be sold for a bag of rice come on ... and then end up as a gov'ner

[20:22] <omega> hard head

[20:22] <omega> that's why they did what they did

[20:22] <omega> yeappp

[20:22] <omega> like Samson in a way

[20:22] <dalet> God may have seen how Joseph was turning out at let this happen to him

[20:22] <pi> he has to mature and be able to handle his gifts before they get him anywhere good

[20:22] <DWROB> That's the emphasis especially in the Muslim reading of this story

[20:22] <DWROB> But what about this ...

[20:23] <DWROB> If Joseph is so good and faithful, then why does such terrible stuff happen to him?

[20:23] <vav> test

[20:23] <mu> tests

[20:23] <psi> to test his faith

[20:23] <bet5> test of faith

[20:23] <nu> it is God testing him

[20:23] <kappa> because it is God's will

[20:23] <beta> jealousy

[20:23] <rho> test his faith

[20:23] <omicron> god was testing him

[20:23] <he> His test is different

[20:23] <delta> test, trials,tribulations

[20:23] <aleph> to put him in his place, he will be more faithful to god afterwards

[20:23] <dalet> like i said before sometimes Hebrew god tests his servants

[20:23] <pi> punishment for his pride

[20:23] <mu> to see if he is worthy

[20:23] <omicron> testing his faith

[20:23] <omega> a test

[20:23] <omega> once again ... that free will test

[20:23] <DWROB> aleph: makes sense

[20:23] <beta> i don't agree

[20:23] <dalet> it was a way to humble Joseph

[20:23] <lambda> a test of faith

[20:23] <DWROB> beta: yes?

[20:23] <gamma> god knows his faith is strong and uses Joseph as an example of the power faith

[20:23] <rho> how true will you be to God?

[20:24] <beta> he was never not faithful to God

[20:24] <eta> he is just at the end of a bad deal ...

[20:24] <pi> God was knocking him off his pedestal;

[20:24] <psi> he always respected God

[20:24] <omicron> but he was bragging about being superior one day

[20:24] <vav> how so

[20:24] <aleph> being haughty to others was not following God

[20:24] <dalet> the best way to test a man a see his true colors is during hard times

[20:24] <kappa> God was making sure he would continue to obey in order to allow him to prosper

[20:24] <DWROB> beta": true

[20:24] <eta> pride could be a big deal too ...

[20:24] <beta> he wasn't bragging - just stating

[20:24] <tau> bad things just happen to some people ... comes will free will

[20:24] <pi> Joseph was constrained by his arrogance so when life threw him some hard times, he had to humble himself and after that he was able to prosper

[20:24] <bet5> people sin but they also obey sometimes

[20:24] <omega> yes he always respected but

[20:25] <he> he worshiped god but that didn't mean he wasn't a sinner

[20:25] <psi> he respected and worshiped god

[20:25] <DWROB> beta: the Rabbinical Jewish tradition does note that he is excessively prideful, so I'm not spinning this out of thin air

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[20:25] <aleph> true we are all imperfect

[20:25] <beta> there aren't any straight out examples of him sinning

[20:25] <phi> because god is testing his faith

[20:25] <omega> you can't respect and boast or have a big head about things also'

[20:25] <xi> test his faith and preparation for his position later on

[20:26] <he> maybe it was lost in the translation

[20:26] <beta> i just don't see him as being as prideful that he is being portrays

[20:26] <pi> being arrogant is not productive he needed to chill out a little bit to be a better person

[20:26] <mu> it seems like he was mocking people

[20:26] <DWROB> OK, now what about the latter part of that story. Why does Joseph go through this song and dance with his brothers, giving back money, hiding cups, summoning Benjamin, etc.?

[20:26] <mu> like saying I am better than you

[20:26] <dalet> many of the people who followed Hebrew god in old test sinned badly

[20:26] <aleph> to see if his brothers have become good

[20:26] <vav> to reconcile

[20:26] <tau> to see his dad and show him he is alive

[20:26] <DWROB> good how?

[20:26] <aleph> to test whether they are humble

[20:26] <bet5> he is happy to see them and missed and forgiven

[20:26] <kappa> to get them to come back and test them

[20:26] <dalet> look at Sampson

[20:26] <psi> to see his family

[20:26] <beta> to let them know he forgives them

[20:26] <rho> love in his heart

[20:26] <kaf> To show that he was superior

[20:26] <lambda> to see his family and to test them

[20:26] <delta> he realized where he went wrong in the beginning

[20:26] <mu> to see if they accepted him

[20:27] <chi> he knew what gods plan was and was cocky about it

[20:27] <chi> he honored his father and that must have made him look good in the eyes of god

[20:27] <gamma> to show forgiveness as God would have desired

[20:27] <psi> he had become above them

[20:27] <DWROB> Partly to test them, yes.

[20:27] <pi> possibly to test his brothers and see if they had become better people then they were when they threw him in a pit

[20:27] <omicron> he wanted to prove to them that he didn' lie to them

[20:27] <DWROB> Also to teach them

[20:27] <nu> he has seen the error of his way

[20:27] <he> to see how they really felt about him

[20:27] <bet5> he let it go

[20:27] <psi> and to show he forgave them

[20:27] <aleph> Their father loves Benjamin the most, they want to protect him for their father - this shows their goodness

[20:27] <DWROB> he teaches generosity by giving back their money

[20:27] <bet5> he is in a better place now

[20:27] <omega> yesss

[20:27] <omega> i guess as a way to prove to them it was true what he said when he was younger

[20:27] <beta> agreed

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[20:27] <DWROB> aleph: excellent

[20:27] <bet5> he is now truly the bigger man

[20:27] <delta> he also gave them food

[20:28] <rho> do unto those as you would have them do unto you

[20:28] <beta> yeah - he could have let them starve

[20:28] <DWROB> Also, Joseph resembles God in his generosity to them, though they know they don't deserve it

[20:28] <pi> they've finally replaced their jealousy with love and understanding

[20:28] <DWROB> So, how do they pass the test finally?

[20:28] <bet5> it must be humbling

[20:28] <DWROB> At what point can the brothers be forgiven?

[20:28] <omicron> they brig benjamin to him

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[20:28] <kappa> bringing benjamin

[20:28] <psi> after they show remorse

[20:28] <DWROB> nope

[20:28] <mu> they brought bj

[20:28] <eta> repenting?

[20:28] <DWROB> remorse how?

[20:28] <bet5> when they bring the youngest brother

[20:28] <he> after they show they are sorry to him

[20:28] <vav> confessing

[20:28] <yod> brought benjamin,

[20:28] <aleph> they beg that Benjamin not be taken away

[20:28] <psi> by asking for forgiveness

[20:28] <DWROB> They do show remorse that that doesn't do it

[20:28] <gamma> they showed their humility

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[20:29] <pi> they put their fathers will over their own

[20:29] <DWROB> Be precise -- when does Joseph reveal himself exactly?

[20:29] <tau> after they say their dad would die

[20:29] <delta> after the Egyptians leave

[20:29] <DWROB> Remorse in the abstract isn't enough

[20:29] <DWROB> tau: words, words

[20:29] <dalet> he breaks down with benjamin

[20:29] <bet5> when he sees that the brothers have changed and they love BJ

[20:29] <DWROB> nope

[20:29] <mu> when he cried

[20:29] <rho> faith

[20:29] <mu> together

[20:29] <DWROB> boohoo -- nope

[20:30] <aleph> After Benjamin has been accused of stealing and they know that they cannot leave benjamin

[20:30] <GSUser9> when his brothers bow down to him

[20:30] <DWROB> no, no, no!

[20:30] <aleph> when his father finally comes?

[20:30] <DWROB> no

[20:30] <dalet> well, tell us

[20:30] <kappa> double money

[20:30] <DWROB> Look at the text

[20:30] <xi> true

[20:30] <DWROB> Judah makes an offer ...

[20:30] <chi> by bringing back the money he puts in their bags

[20:30] <chi> when they have brought his brother back and he has framed him with the goblet

[20:31] <DWROB> What's the magic formula? What does Judah offer to do?

[20:31] <psi> by bringing his brother

[20:31] <tau> to sacrifice himself

[20:31] <rho> sacrifice

[20:31] <DWROB> RIGHT

[20:31] <DWROB> you got it

[20:31] <psi> sacrifice

[20:31] <DWROB> Why is that the crucial test?

[20:32] <mu> that's the ultimate test

[20:32] <DWROB> He offers to be a hostage in his brother's place

[20:32] <theta> it shows that he gave God his ALL

[20:32] <nu> it is the ultimate sacrifice

[20:32] <rho> part of the covenant

[20:32] <bet5> it is the most important thing in life

[20:32] <tau> selflessness

[20:32] <kappa> to see how much they have changed

[20:32] <delta> because of the love that he had

[20:32] <he> because that is the best sacrifice

[20:32] <aleph> because they truly loved their father and realized what this would do

[20:32] <dalet> i guess Joseph as his brother is not selfish

[20:32] <eta> because that is the ultimate thing to give up

[20:32] <lambda> prove he would give everything

[20:32] <omicron> he will do whatever it takes

[20:32] <DWROB> theta: stay with the story -- leave god out here

[20:32] <gamma> to show his sincerity

[20:32] <he> that shows his true love

[20:32] <DWROB> Well, why specifically this, though?

[20:32] <omega> it is the ultimate thing of unselfish act

[20:32] <mu> there is no greater sacrifice

[20:32] <vav> because of what they did to him

[20:32] <pi> they offer to take Benjamin's place

[20:32] <rho> Jewish central point

[20:32] <pi> so he can go back to his father

[20:32] <bet5> he cares so much

[20:32] <aleph> to give ones life is the ultimate sacrifice of love

[20:32] <psi> nothing greater then sacrifice

[20:32] <theta> okay ... he showed exactly how much this meant to him

[20:32] <beta> sacrifice is the ultimate gift

[20:33] <DWROB> Right -- this shows that they aren't they same brothers who dumped Joseph in a pit

[20:33] <DWROB> They have truly repented and mended their ways

[20:33] <vav> he had to have proof that they were not still like that

[20:33] <gamma> they had changed

[20:33] <kappa> they changed

[20:33] <bet5> they have changed

[20:33] <DWROB> All right -- how is this analogous to God/man and the Covenant?

[20:33] <xi> kill them

[20:33] <xi> those was his brothers and despite what they have done he loved them

[20:33] <delta> it teaches the same lesson

[20:33] <nu> repent when you sin

[20:33] <psi> they changed for the better

[20:33] <aleph> you can turn your life around and do good and benefit

[20:33] <mu> they showed him that they have changed so he welcomed them

[20:33] <pi> they prove to Joseph that they are morally sound and he forgives and rewards them

[20:33] <rho> part of the Jewish central point

[20:33] <omicron> if you are a sinner then god has to make sure you have changed to forgive you

[20:33] <bet5> Joseph forgave his brothers because they were repentant

[20:34] <DWROB> yes

[20:34] <theta> it shows that one can turn from sin

[20:34] <gamma> man must not only speak remorse but show it as well

[20:34] <vav> we have to repent before we are forgiven

[20:34] <beta> repent and you shall be forgiven

[20:34] <kappa> if you obey God you will prosper, well if you repent and believe in God you will be forgiven

[20:34] <bet5> godlike

[20:34] <lambda> it shows people can change

[20:34] <xi> repent and u are forgiven

[20:34] <eta> if your bad, bad things will happen.

[20:34] <DWROB> And, as a result, they are all invited to Egypt and they escape the famine

[20:34] <rho> reward

[20:34] <kappa> yes

[20:34] <pi> and they party hard

[20:34] <bet5> they obey and they prosper

[20:34] <chi> because they sold him into slavery

[20:34] <DWROB> well, for a while

[20:34] <psi> it shows withe the help of God people can change

[20:34] <beta> Gods Gods grace and undeserving love

[20:34] <delta> reward for doing right

[20:34] <DWROB> beta: grace is a Christian notion, but you see it s roots here

[20:35] <beta> yeah

[20:35] <DWROB> Let's look at another story -- Job

[20:35] <bet5> ok

[20:35] <he> sweet

[20:35] <DWROB> Anything a little OFF about this story?

[20:35] <kappa> he was truly tested

[20:35] <bet5> Job is tuff

[20:35] <tau> god and Satan playing around with job

[20:35] <dalet> the devil going to and fro?

[20:35] <eta> he did nothing wrong

[20:35] <nu> God punishes a faithful servant

[20:35] <aleph> Job didn't do anything wrong and his life turns sour

[20:35] <psi> he was tested

[20:35] <gamma> job was a completely righteous man

[20:35] <rho> the whale

[20:35] <kaf> unfair

[20:35] <he> Job is real tuff

[20:35] <omicron> god doesn't really reward him

[20:35] <kappa> he never folded his beliefs

[20:35] <pi> this is disturbing because God allows the Devil to hurt Job just to prove that the covenant he has with man is true

[20:35] <DWROB> nu: absolutely -- what gives?

[20:35] <aleph> he doesn't even know he is being tested.

[20:35] <psi> he always got the raw end of the stick

[20:35] <delta> he was a good servant and God tested him ultimately by Satan

[20:35] <dalet> god could not find any fault in job

[20:36] <aleph> God doesn't punish him, he always Satan to

[20:36] <kappa> to prove to Satan

[20:36] <mu> he loses his family and survive

[20:36] <DWROB> pi: I don't see how the covenant comes into it even

[20:36] <psi> God punishes him to test him

[20:36] <tau> god believed job would never curse him

[20:36] <DWROB> psi: really?

[20:36] <omicron> he makes an example of him

[20:36] <he> To show the example of Satan

[20:36] <pi> Job hadn't broken it but God did

[20:36] <DWROB> That's not the reason the story gives!

[20:36] <DWROB> In the story, why is he treated this way, tested?

[20:36] <bet5> the covenant does come in b/c Job is faithful

[20:36] <rho> teach patience

[20:36] <psi> to show he is faithful

[20:36] <DWROB> bet5: hmmmm

[20:36] <pi> to prove to Satan that he would still be faithful to God no matter what happened to him

[20:36] <omega> faith payed off

[20:36] <omega> god put job business out on da hook for the devil and kept doing it

[20:36] <omega> he was testing another faithful servant

[20:36] <dalet> well the devil believed he could break job

[20:36] <gamma> it is a test from Satan in mankind's faith in God

[20:37] <vav> because of his disobedience

[20:37] <bet5> god wanted to test his faith and loyalty

[20:37] <aleph> to prove humans can be faithful to god even when good things are taken away

[20:37] <eta> to prove man can remain faithful even in hard times

[20:37] <kappa> to test beliefs

[20:37] <chi> someone just broke my window with an apple, I am sorry but I have to go.

[20:37] <chi> please don't hold this against me

[20:37] chi ( left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer

[20:37] <lambda> to show Satan humans can be faithful

[20:37] <beta> good point

[20:37] <omega> "what about my servant job?" to the devil

[20:37] <mu> his faith in himself

[20:37] <xi> to show that job will remain faithful

[20:37] <DWROB> He is treated this way because god is bragging to the Satan one afternoon and they make a bet!

[20:37] <pi> that's what i said

[20:37] <delta> because Satan looked over the land to find someone who was disobedient and he found that Job was most faithful but thought that he could change him

[20:37] <DWROB> OK -- lost in the shuffle

[20:37] <dalet> sounds so bad that way!

[20:37] <DWROB> How do you reconcile this to the covenant?

[20:38] <mu> bragging rights?

[20:38] <bet5> a little simple sounding DWROB

[20:38] <pi> and as a result God doesn't exactly hold up his end of the covenant

[20:38] <GSUser9> Job was loyal to God and God tested his faith

[20:38] <GSUser9> Satan told Job that he can do whatever God can do

[20:38] <DWROB> dalet: that is what the story literally says, though

[20:38] <aleph> in the end Job got twice of everything he had before for being faithful

[20:38] <kappa> he eventually did prosper again

[20:38] <bet5> god tests job and he is faithfully

[20:38] <omega> what about the people who suffered also, not just job

[20:38] <DWROB> what we make of it is another matter, o course

[20:38] <beta> i get it now

[20:38] <bet5> ultimate test

[20:38] <yod> Joseph got it all back two fold

[20:38] <dalet> well, this has nothing to do w/covenant

[20:38] <psi> ultimate test

[20:38] <DWROB> This testing stuff lets you off the hook too easily

[20:38] <beta> how so?

[20:38] <he> Survival of the most faithful

[20:38] <DWROB> This story shows the just suffering for no action of their own

[20:39] <bet5> it is what was written

[20:39] <DWROB> It contradicts the historical model we talked about.

[20:39] <aleph> But it ends correctly

[20:39] <dalet> most definitely

[20:39] <pi> it explains why shitty stuff happens to good people

[20:39] <rho> the other stuff was not working

[20:39] <bet5> Job has patience

[20:39] <DWROB> aleph: that's little comfort to Job's dead first family

[20:39] <omega> to the covenant ...

[20:39] <omega> as that being that job did not wander due to his friends or really his wife but he did question god ... but did not break.

[20:39] <he> In the end he is showered with gifts though

[20:39] <delta> I agree there was no reason for him to suffer that extreme except to prove Gods powerfulness

[20:39] <dalet> but look how job ended up with twice as much in the end

[20:39] <eta> ahhh it does ... but ends with a covenant.. god "makes up" for it

[20:39] <aleph> good point

[20:40] <kappa> sometimes you have to lose a "little" to gain a lot

[20:40] <DWROB> eta: "Thanks God -- and leave me alone next time!!!

[20:40] <beta> yeah

[20:40] <dalet> job lived 150 years after that and was very wealthy

[20:40] <DWROB> The story clearly is dealing with the idea of FATE all over again

[20:40] <DWROB> The reasons for Job's suffering have nothing to do with actions.

[20:40] <pi> good for you

[20:40] <pi> exactly

[20:40] <beta> how does fate play in?

[20:40] <aleph> it still teaches a lesson, you never know when you are being tested so always be good

[20:40] <bet5> true

[20:40] <pi> it puts a little bit of a dimmer light on God

[20:40] <omicron> it shows that god is superior

[20:40] <delta> so no matter how good you try to live fate will steer your destiny?

[20:41] <rho> it to do with patience

[20:41] <DWROB> aleph: hmmm

[20:41] <omicron> and can do what he wants

[20:41] <gamma> it makes mankind seem like a puppet with no control

[20:41] <DWROB> rho: no, I dispute that

[20:41] <bet5> why

[20:41] <DWROB> you hear about Job and his patience, but he isn';t patient at all!

[20:41] <aleph> we do not even know if Job existed.

[20:41] <dalet> he complains the whole time

[20:41] <he> It teaches to believe no matter what

[20:41] <tau> god proves HE is all powerful

[20:41] <DWROB> He complains and protests his innocence~!

[20:41] <rho> God is trying to teach Job patience with his faith

[20:41] <eta> no.. he kind of argues with god doesn't he?

[20:41] <pi> i don't like the fact that God feels he needs to prove himself to the devil

[20:41] <DWROB> Let me give you a quote ... .

[20:41] <bet5> he is faithful which shows patience

[20:41] <dalet> i would have too, he hadn't done anything

[20:41] <he> But he never looses faith

[20:41] <tau> Satan wasn't the devil yet

[20:42] <tau> doesn't that come later?

[20:42] <bet5> he complains but does not disobey

[20:42] <omega> suffering with the replacement of others , family, servants , field workers..

[20:42] <omega> so why was it included

[20:42] <omega> then god talks to em

[20:42] <pi> yes Satan falls before the world ever is created

[20:42] <dalet> tau: please explain

[20:42] <mu> he always stays faithful even though god did not revel to him

[20:42] <DWROB> Job's friends come to "comfort": him ... look at this ...

[20:42] <DWROB>

[20:42] Last message repeated 3 time(s).

[20:42] <GSUser9> God shows his rewards for Job's good faith

[20:42] <DWROB> 1 Then Eli'phaz the Te'manite answered: 2 "If one ventures a word with you, will you be offended? Yet who can keep from speaking? 3 Behold, you have instructed many, and you have strengthened the weak hands. 4 Your words have upheld him who was stumbling, and you have made firm the feeble knees. 5 But now it has come to you, and you are impatient; it touches you, and you are dismayed. 6 Is not your fear of God your confidence, and the integrity of your ways y

[20:42] <DWROB> our hope?

[20:42] <DWROB> 7 "Think now, who that was innocent ever perished? Or where were the upright cut off? 8 As I

[20:42] <DWROB> have seen, those who plow iniquity and sow trouble reap the same. 9 By the breath of God they perish, and by the blast of his anger they are consumed. 10 The roar of the lion, the voice of the fierce lion, the teeth of the young lions, are broken. 11 The strong lion perishes for lack of prey, and the whelps of the lioness are scattered.

[20:42] <DWROB>

[20:42] Last message repeated 1 time(s).

[20:42] <DWROB> read

[20:42] <DWROB> and comment

[20:43] <DWROB> "Think now, who that was innocent ever perished? Or where were the upright cut off?

[20:43] <DWROB> that's the covenant idea

[20:43] <DWROB> What is Eliphaz saying?

[20:43] <aleph> you must have done something to make God mad

[20:43] <DWROB> right

[20:43] <kappa> he had to have done something wrong

[20:43] <nu> that bad things happen to good people all the time

[20:43] <dalet> have u ever seen the righteous forsaken?

[20:43] <DWROB> and Eliphaz is quite wrong.

[20:43] <mu> he must of sinned

[20:43] <psi> had to done something wrong

[20:44] <he> telling of gods wrath

[20:44] <DWROB> But he thinks he is right based on the covenant

[20:44] <yod> this is a warning

[20:44] <omicron> all of his friends were wrong

[20:44] <DWROB> Job answers rather impatiently ... .

[20:44] <bet5> yes but job obeyed inspire of punishment and those who sin do it bc of outside factors as much as internal factors

[20:44] <DWROB>

[20:44] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:44] <DWROB> 23 "Oh that my words were written! Oh that they were inscribed in a book!

[20:44] <DWROB> 24 Oh that with an iron pen and lead they were graven in the rock for ever!

[20:44] <DWROB> 25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at last he will stand upon the earth;

[20:44] <DWROB> 26 and after my skin has been thus destroyed, then from my flesh I shall see God,

[20:44] <DWROB> 27 whom I shall see on my side, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart faints within me!

[20:44] <DWROB> 28 If you say, 'How we will pursue him!' and, 'The root of the matter is found in him';

[20:44] <DWROB> 29 be afraid of the sword, for wrath brings the punishment of the sword, that you may know there is a judgment."

[20:44] <omega> he winnnnnsss

[20:44] <omega> Moses and the commandments ... suffering good with bad

[20:44] <delta> Was it not told if something was done

[20:44] <DWROB>

[20:44] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:44] <kappa> bringing fate into the picture

[20:44] <rho> he does listen and obey God

[20:44] <psi> huh?

[20:45] <delta> maybe he was reassuring himself therefore showing God some disbelief

[20:45] <DWROB> Job says, you are wrong, but I still believe in justice, I just don't understand what's happening"

[20:45] <he> He is questioning God

[20:45] <eta> he disagrees

[20:45] <DWROB> He finally pleads ignorance

[20:45] <kappa> ok

[20:45] <psi> ok

[20:45] <DWROB> he DOES question god -- is that good or bad?

[20:45] <psi> that is a good way to do it

[20:45] <aleph> he recognizes that there is a devil out there, right?

[20:45] <bet5> he wants to know what gives

[20:45] <omicron> bad

[20:45] <delta> BAD

[20:45] <dalet> bad

[20:45] <rho> follow God and he will lead you

[20:45] <lambda> bad

[20:45] <nu> bad

[20:45] <psi> bad

[20:45] <yod> trust in him

[20:45] <kappa> generally bad

[20:45] <beta> can be very bad

[20:45] <he> well maybe that is what God wanted

[20:45] <theta> bad

[20:45] <vav> both

[20:45] <gamma> bad but he is only human

[20:45] <DWROB> heehee

[20:45] <psi> you never should question God

[20:46] <tau> god corrects him ... puts him in his place

[20:46] <eta> bad ... ..something you just don't do

[20:46] <mu> believe in him, that was bad

[20:46] <omicron> so job isn't perfect

[20:46] <bet5> he didn't get an answer though

[20:46] <he> For him to ask questions but to find the answers for himself

[20:46] <dalet> but it seems as though god was looking for questioning

[20:46] <DWROB> Are you all sure you read this :-P

[20:46] <bet5> it is not bad

[20:46] <psi> i think so

[20:46] <DWROB> Job finally does get an answer ...

[20:46] <DWROB> God says, "you are not in a position to understand"

[20:46] <bet5> just do it in a humble way

[20:46] <he> but not the whole answer

[20:46] <kappa> but its not a full answer

[20:46] <DWROB> Who are you, anyway?

[20:46] <delta> he does get an answer and many many many rewards

[20:47] <dalet> why does the Hebrew god always ask rhetorical questions?

[20:47] <tau> with god saying i am all powerful ...

[20:47] <vav> I know all not you

[20:47] <DWROB> Not a very satisfying answer, but its true enough

[20:47] <nu> God seems angry that he asked

[20:47] <DWROB> yes, BUT ...

[20:47] <bet5> he puts him in his place

[20:47] <he> It suggests that there is not and never will be an explanation of human suffering that man's intelligence can comprehend.

[20:47] <DWROB> Look what he says to Eliphaz after ...

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[20:47] <omega> don't know bout that

[20:47] <omega> yes he is

[20:47] <omega> noo he knew what he was doing so it was stupidity

[20:47] <omega> bad

[20:47] <aleph> that should have given Job a clue that something fishy was going on

[20:47] <DWROB>

[20:47] Last message repeated 3 time(s).

[20:47] <gamma> it shows how man can never fully understand God

[20:47] <DWROB> 7 After the LORD had spoken these words to Job, the LORD said to Eli'phaz the Te'manite: "My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. 8 Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly; for you h

[20:47] <DWROB> ave not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has." 9 So Eli'phaz the Te'manite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Na'amathite went and did what the LORD had told them; and the LORD accepted Job's prayer.

[20:47] <DWROB>

[20:47] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:47] <DWROB> gamma: true -- because God and fate have something in common after all

[20:48] <DWROB> God rebukes Eliphaz for being a fool who thinks he understands God, and he blesses Job for admitting that he knows nothing.

[20:48] <rho> it must be Gods will

[20:48] <kappa> yes

[20:48] <eta> i never caught that ... so god told them that Job was right?

[20:48] <dalet> he likes jobs humbleness

[20:48] <yod> yes

[20:49] <delta> that makes sense

[20:49] <DWROB> Knowing that you know nothing is the basis of wisdom, as Socrates also points out

[20:49] <eta> oh never mind

[20:49] <mu> makes sense

[20:49] <bet5> Show humility b4 god

[20:49] <beta> make extensive sacrifice to atone for their sin

[20:49] <mu> i see

[20:49] <aleph> basically you cannot think to understand something that goes against what it should with God

[20:49] <kappa> interesting

[20:49] <delta> I am getting confused more

[20:49] <psi> does make sense

[20:49] <omicron> that is why it is not wrong to question god?

[20:49] <vav> yes

[20:49] <DWROB> Every religion that isn''t simple-minded has to deal with the problem of why the innocent suffer.

[20:49] <beta> not correct

[20:49] <omicron> because it shows you don't know

[20:49] <DWROB> This is Judaism's effort at doing that, or part of the effort

[20:49] <aleph> so is this the Jews answer?

[20:49] <dalet> i understand now

[20:49] <DWROB> in part

[20:50] <he> must accept the inexplicable fact that undeserved suffering is the work of God's justice.

[20:50] <DWROB> the answer is : fate, or, we cannot know (the same thing ultimately)

[20:50] <bet5> are you saying the story of job is an excuse

[20:50] <delta> it seems as though you have to question what you were taught in Sunday School

[20:50] <he> in deed

[20:50] <tau> ha i agree

[20:50] <gamma> we have no control of either case

[20:50] <DWROB> Oh, clearly -- it was put int he bible for a reason, after all. It is also a very late book.

[20:50] <aleph> you have to question everything in life

[20:51] <bet5> ok

[20:51] <delta> true

[20:51] <bet5> clear to you

[20:51] <DWROB> some texts were included, some were excluded -- these were weighty choices, to say the least

[20:51] <rho> the other stuff wasn't working?

[20:51] <bet5> maybe a lesson to others

[20:51] <beta> not necessarily

[20:51] <kappa> yes

[20:51] <beta> (question what we have been taught)

[20:51] <he> very heavy stuff

[20:51] <DWROB> bet5: clear in the sense of the consensus of historical scholarship carried out my Jewish and Christian researchers. Go argue with them as you wish.

[20:52] <DWROB> One more example ... .

[20:52] <DWROB> briefly

[20:52] <bet5> I'm not arguing

[20:52] <DWROB> again of a kind of historical evolution of the basic Jewish idea of the covenant ...

[20:52] <bet5> just trying to understand what you think

[20:52] <DWROB> JONAH

[20:52] <xi> ok

[20:52] <omega> mans choices to leave and what stays

[20:52] <omega> some where not thought to be what men needed to read

[20:52] <dalet> u know people are very sensitive when it comes to beliefs

[20:52] <DWROB> Everybody likes the Jonah story --- what's it got to do with Judaism?

[20:53] <delta> that story was good but a little mythical

[20:53] <bet5> covenant theme

[20:53] <DWROB> It does read like a fable

[20:53] <beta> you can run but you cant hide!

[20:53] <aleph> Give everyone a chance to change

[20:53] <gamma> the covenant between God and Nineveh

[20:53] <DWROB> is the cov. theme there?

[20:53] <bet5> yes

[20:53] <nu> yes

[20:53] <mu> yes

[20:53] <omicron> yes

[20:53] <lambda> yes

[20:53] <kappa> yes

[20:53] <rho> yes

[20:53] <gamma> yes

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[20:53] <delta> always

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[20:53] <DWROB> gamma: Whoa! What's that???

[20:53] <tau> if you repent ... god will save you

[20:53] <DWROB> since when???

[20:53] <DWROB> Nineveh?

[20:53] <DWROB> what's going on?

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[20:53] <aleph> yes, the people of Nineveh change and they benefit by not being destroyed

[20:53] <rho> repent and be saved

[20:53] <bet5> Jonah and god

[20:53] <beta> yeah

[20:54] <DWROB> Isn't there something wrong with this picture?

[20:54] <bet5> what

[20:54] <DWROB> Since when is Nineveh in a covenant with God?

[20:54] <tau> its not god's people?

[20:54] <rho> as Jonah says - God always forgives

[20:54] <beta> Nineveh wasn't Jewish

[20:54] <bet5> never

[20:54] <DWROB> right

[20:54] <omicron> the people of Nineveh

[20:54] <aleph> God is extending his mercy to other people who serve God

[20:54] <delta> Because Jonah got mad at the fact that they were not going to be destroyed

[20:54] <DWROB> OK -- this is what's remarkable

[20:54] <DWROB> The idea of the covenant has been expanded here to include all mankind

[20:54] <psi> never

[20:55] <DWROB> This story is explicitly anti-chauvinist

[20:55] <bet5> always

[20:55] <rho> Judaism must grow

[20:55] <beta> okay ...

[20:55] <DWROB> The Jews are nothing special (we are reminded)

[20:55] <kappa> ok

[20:55] <DWROB> And God is interested in the other nations, too

[20:55] <DWROB> That's new

[20:55] <beta> since when?

[20:55] <aleph> because all the Jews keep sinning, so God has to find new people

[20:55] <bet5> only in the story order

[20:55] <beta> not exactly

[20:55] <he> no

[20:55] <DWROB> aleph: no. no -- that's very anachronistic and contentious

[20:56] <DWROB> This was written by Jews for Jews,. remember

[20:56] <DWROB> leave later interpretations out right now

[20:56] <rho> but it eventually included others

[20:56] <DWROB> Ask yourself why Jewish scholars in 600 BC would have included this story int he Bible

[20:56] <he> he will forgive them no matter what he just wants them to accept him as their god

[20:56] <delta> expand the covenant to include other nationalities

[20:56] <kappa> interesting

[20:56] <aleph> do not question god?

[20:56] <tau> to show how gracious god is?

[20:56] <rho> they were not a lone

[20:56] <eta> to show that you can change you ways ???

[20:56] <DWROB> Yes, they are abstracting the message and applying it to all mankind.

[20:57] <bet5> to make history work

[20:57] <nu> it's saying that everyone is welcome and it's never to late

[20:57] <vav> to get other followers

[20:57] <beta> to show tat God was for all people not just Jew

[20:57] <DWROB> This is an evolution that actually does point toward Christianity

[20:57] <beta> s

[20:57] <rho> yes

[20:57] <beta> yes

[20:57] <bet5> it makes since

[20:57] <rho> transformation

[20:57] <beta> sense

[20:57] <aleph> why would it point towards Christianity if it was written for Jews

[20:57] <DWROB> It is very different , though, from early Jewish thought

[20:57] <DWROB> The other similar test by the way is Ruth

[20:57] <DWROB> text

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[20:58] <DWROB> Now, what about the end ...

[20:58] <DWROB> look at one more quote ...

[20:58] <DWROB> Remember, Jonah prophesies destruction, but the people repent, and the city is saved.

[20:58] <DWROB>

[20:58] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:58] <DWROB> 1: But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry.

[20:58] <DWROB> 2: And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.

[20:58] <DWROB> 3: Therefore now, O LORD, take, I beseech thee, my life from me; for it is better for me to die than to live.

[20:58] <DWROB> 4: Then said the LORD, Doest thou well to be angry?

[20:58] <DWROB> 5: So Jonah went out of the city, and sat on the east side of the city, and there made him a booth, and sat under it in the shadow, till he might see what would become of the city.

[20:58] <DWROB> 6: And the LORD God prepared a gourd, and made it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a shadow over his head, to deliver him from his grief. So Jonah was exceeding glad of the gourd.

[20:59] <DWROB> 7: But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered.

[20:59] <DWROB> 8: And it came to pass, when the sun did arise, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted, and wished in himself to die, and said, It is better for me to die than to live.

[20:59] <DWROB> 9: And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death.

[20:59] <DWROB> 10: Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:

[20:59] <DWROB> 11: And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

[20:59] <DWROB>

[20:59] <DWROB>

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[20:59] <beta> Jonah got mad bc they were not destroyed

[20:59] <DWROB> What is Jonah's response?

[20:59] <beta> mad is an understatement

[20:59] <kappa> Jonah is upset

[20:59] <psi> very mad

[20:59] <beta> until death

[20:59] <tau> god was showing he can give(by building the gourd) and take away(the worm)

[20:59] <DWROB> He feels professionally insulted!

[20:59] <aleph> God forgave the people of Nineveh and Jonah should have as well because they didn't know any better

[20:59] <gamma> he is angered by God's decision

[21:00] <DWROB> Now his reputation as a prophet is ruined!

[21:00] <bet5> i would to

[21:00] <he> feels disappointed

[21:00] <DWROB> should he be angered?

[21:00] <beta> no

[21:00] <upsilon> no

[21:00] <yod> he needs to let it go

[21:00] <DWROB> of course not -- he still hasn't learned much

[21:00] <beta> he did his job to make them repent

[21:00] <bet5> the people now prosper

[21:00] <he> no that would show him being vain

[21:00] <psi> he should not be

[21:00] <kappa> no

[21:00] <DWROB> he learned to repent himself, but he has no empathy with others.

[21:00] <gamma> nope

[21:01] <DWROB> His prophetic mission is all about Me, Me, ME

[21:01] <beta> makes sense

[21:01] <GSUser> no

[21:01] <bet5> he doesn't care selfish

[21:01] <eta> bad bad

[21:01] <psi> very bad

[21:01] <beta> shows unselfishness

[21:01] <DWROB> And so how does god respond to this wickedness of heart?

[21:01] <tau> he gives him a gourd then takes it away

[21:01] <DWROB> meaning what?

[21:01] <aleph> he makes him realize that he cares more for a plant than people

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[21:01] <mu> he gives him something and take it away in a night

[21:01] <tau> he can give and takeaway

[21:02] <kappa> give and takes away

[21:02] <DWROB> Right, he doesn'';t hit him with lightening or swallow him in an earthquake ...

[21:02] <he> That everything he has was given to him and can be striped from him

[21:02] <delta> give and take

[21:02] <bet5> whale

[21:02] <DWROB> He tries very gently to TEACH him

[21:02] <omega> no

[21:02] <DWROB> just as the Ninevites were taught

[21:02] <theta> right

[21:02] <eta> like a child almost

[21:02] <rho> at the end the city repents and is spared

[21:02] <DWROB> He shows mercy

[21:02] <vav> okay

[21:02] <kappa> good

[21:02] <DWROB> like child, exactly

[21:02] <xi> not really

[21:02] <mu> he gives him another chance

[21:02] <beta> yes, mercy

[21:02] <rho> train him

[21:03] <DWROB> the rebuke is very mild, and funny in its way, because Jonah is SUCH a child

[21:03] <GSUser> just as quick as you can get it ... .he can take it away

[21:03] <omicron> why didn't he help Job understand?

[21:03] <he> Why so forgiving here and so mean to Job

[21:03] <DWROB> This emphasis on mercy, on love, is also very far from the earlier emphasis on law.

[21:03] <aleph> the whole story shows Jonah as acting very childish and afraid

[21:03] <DWROB> true

[21:03] <mu> why was he gentle her

[21:03] <rho> questions God

[21:03] <mu> here

[21:03] <beta> why would God chose Jonah for the job if he knew he was childish?

[21:03] <he> Just to show the different sides to Gods character

[21:03] <DWROB> This si probably the last-written book in the Hebrew Bible -- very late

[21:04] <bet5> yep

[21:04] <kappa> late edition

[21:04] <DWROB> OK, we are done ...

[21:04] <aleph> shows God as having a heart

[21:04] <DWROB> somebody asked about Satan

[21:04] <delta> I agree childish

[21:04] <DWROB> about the oddness of God consorting with Satan

[21:04] <tau> i did ...

[21:04] <DWROB> I should mention that the idea of Satan also evolves, and in this case ...

[21:04] <tau> was Satan already the devil then or does that concept come later?

[21:04] <DWROB> it has the meaning more of "adversary" or tester than "evil master of the dark regions" or some such

[21:05] <DWROB> That idea is LATER

[21:05] <tau> ok

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[21:05] <bet5> its weird how they just talk

[21:05] <DWROB> It is more fully formed by Jesus time, but not in 600 BC

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[21:05] <DWROB> for the record

[21:05] <DWROB> I'm done

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[21:05] <yod> ok bye

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[21:05] <aleph> good night

[21:06] <DWROB> good night to all

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[21:06] <delta> good night

[21:06] <beta> see ya

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[21:06] <omega> yeahhhh

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[21:06] <vav> good night ...

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[21:07] <GSUser> good night

[21:07] <GSUser> well nice talking to everybody

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[21:08] <GSUser> when does everyone plan on studying?

[21:09] <omega> holla at cha folk

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