Chat: ENGL 2111 (World Literature I) Winter 2005

Chat 5: Homer, The Odyssey

Homer, The Odyssey

[00:00] --- Thu Feb 3 2005

[00:00] --- Fri Feb 4 2005

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[19:53] <omega> hello people

[19:53] <vav> hi

[19:54] <vav> enjoy the reading

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[19:54] <sigma> no

[19:55] Last message repeated 1 time(s).

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[19:55] <eta> lor no

[19:55] <vav> long and hard to understand

[19:55] <delta> no

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[19:56] <omega> it was nice..

[19:56] <omega> not enough action for me but I liked it..

[19:56] <omega> well, most of the old heads of literature are hard to understand but once broken down they are quite nice

[19:56] <theta> It was pretty cool ... i read it in high school though

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[19:57] <delta> I agree I had to read different broken down versions

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[19:57] <vav> i found it to be ok but a little hard to understand

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[19:58] <bet> rho ... .sorry I didn't make it. Its nasty outside

[19:58] <bet> stayed home

[19:58] <rho> sure

[19:58] <bet> I'm a little sick

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[19:58] <phi> I've already had to read it twice

[19:58] <omega> such as homer and sir Walter Scott and Poe

[19:58] <omega> I saw the movie 4 years ago on TV and read it in high school

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[19:58] <theta> i am too. i think a lot of people are

[19:59] <beta> anybody else have problems logging on tonight?

[19:59] <bet> yes!!!!

[19:59] <delta> me too

[19:59] <sigma> hut!

[19:59] <bet> I tried like 30 times

[19:59] <beta> glad I'm not the only one

[20:00] <DWROB> But the happy news is that you all made it.

[20:00] <beta> finally

[20:00] <DWROB> I hope the network will be less sluggish tonight

[20:00] <omega> take some pedobismo folk

[20:00] <omega> nop went right in

[20:00] <omega> nope

[20:00] <omega> let get it onnnn

[20:01] <DWROB> I liked several of the forum comments and wanted to start with them.

[20:01] <phi> my computer had to think about it for a while

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[20:01] <DWROB> Here is a post:

[20:01] <DWROB>

[20:02] <DWROB> Odysseus is a hero who strives to do the right thing but allows his ego

[20:02] <DWROB> to get in the way. Odysseus fights the Trojans and is considered a

[20:02] <DWROB> good man. All of the men that Telemachus met spoke of Odysseus as a

[20:02] <DWROB> great man that they were privileged to have fought beside and someone

[20:02] <DWROB> who they long to see safe. I think what sets him apart from other

[20:02] <DWROB> epic heroes is that he kind of falls into the role by the help from

[20:02] <DWROB> Athena. He is a good man, but he does not set out to have the

[20:02] <DWROB> adventures he is having, he is just trying to go home.

[20:02] <DWROB>

[20:02] Last message repeated 1 time(s).

[20:02] <beta> that how he differs form Gilgamesh

[20:02] <DWROB> This touches on two important points: "good" and "home"

[20:02] <gamma> hello Adam

[20:02] <DWROB> What does it mean in this epic to be "good"?

[20:03] <bet> faithful to his mission

[20:03] <DWROB> gamma -- beta -- stop the greets or I will kick you off!

[20:03] <dalet> take care of your country and family

[20:03] <rho> to get home

[20:03] <vav> help will follow

[20:03] <nu> to honor his country and the gods

[20:03] <aleph> He is good because the people that say is good are the people he has helped

[20:03] <he> to maintain your sense of self even when others want to hurt you

[20:03] <tau> has the right intentions (going home)

[20:03] <DWROB> bet: OK, duty

[20:03] <omega> it depends on whose view point you look through

[20:03] <DWROB> omega: not really

[20:04] <gamma> his fulfilling his obligation

[20:04] <omicron> go after your goals and what you think is right

[20:04] <delta> defending himself and family

[20:04] <DWROB> But what is "good" -- is this a Judaeo-Christian morality?

[20:04] <DWROB> delta: YES

[20:04] <dalet> not at all

[20:04] <rho> what was good in the eye of the Greek

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[20:04] <kappa> faithful and sacrificing to the gods

[20:04] <pi> no its a polytheistic Greek one

[20:04] <aleph> not at all, he sleeps with different gods when he is married

[20:04] <vav> the way to heaven

[20:04] <eta> if people see you as good ... you must be good right? in the story that is..

[20:04] <bet> he believes in gods not god

[20:04] <dalet> obeying the gods

[20:04] <DWROB> eta: perhaps, but I want an actual inventory of his alleged goodness

[20:05] <DWROB> dalet: piety -- OK

[20:05] <tau> but he is good in the polytheistic view

[20:05] <iota> obey orders

[20:05] <iota> good in the eyes of the other gods

[20:05] <rho> he is good in for some gods but not all gods

[20:05] <DWROB> But what do the gods like (or dislike) about him?

[20:05] <kappa> He went back in after his men after they drank and were captured

[20:05] <epsilon> to do anything it takes to get home

[20:05] <epsilon> yes

[20:05] <pi> everyone liked him except Poseidon

[20:05] <phi> dedicated to what he believes

[20:05] <dalet> his arrogance

[20:05] <delta> his determination to proceed

[20:05] <kappa> He wants to go home

[20:05] <bet> dislike pride

[20:05] <omicron> his persistence

[20:05] <DWROB> kappa: brave and loyal, yes

[20:05] <aleph> They like that he is strong

[20:05] <pi> he is a man who is faithful to his country his family and the gods

[20:05] <theta> they weren't too happy with what he did to Polyphemus ...

[20:05] <gamma> no each culture has it's own definition of good

[20:06] <DWROB> gamma: yes

[20:06] <DWROB> that's my point

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[20:06] <kappa> he is very determined to make his way home

[20:06] <he> shows integrity and respect

[20:06] <rho> loyalty to only certain gods

[20:06] <beta> shows determination

[20:06] <DWROB> rho: inevitable in a polytheistic world

[20:06] <dalet> no definite points of goodness

[20:06] <yod> he questioned the messenger but did follow him though

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[20:06] <omega> his position in the Trojan war

[20:06] <theta> well, he fought in the Trojan war

[20:06] <pi> the gods admired his courage, strength, brains, and intentions

[20:06] <theta> i agree with book

[20:07] <DWROB> The Greek notion of "the good" usually has to do with skill, competence, excellence at the tasks handed to you.,

[20:07] <DWROB> It is not an abstract thing.

[20:07] <pi> exactly

[20:07] <rho> that comes later

[20:07] <bet> He pulled through in every obstacle

[20:07] <gamma> how you handle the cards you are dealt

[20:07] <pi> i wasn't just a bad ass like Achilles he was very smart on top of being a great warrior

[20:07] <beta> well he did complete his task of defeating Troy

[20:07] <DWROB> What makes Odysseus heroically "good" is that he is GOOD at so many things, great in fact

[20:07] <eta> was he actually a GREAT person? he got with women when he had a wife.. he did things for himself with much disregard for his crew..

[20:07] <dalet> but he always had help

[20:07] <DWROB> pi: very true

[20:07] <rho> his wit

[20:07] <delta> I agree bc with his skill in defending he was able to come through

[20:08] <kappa> he is very skillful and competent in everything they put in his way

[20:08] <sigma> his spirit

[20:08] <sigma> not at all what 'good' means today

[20:08] <DWROB> eta: yes, he is also flawed

[20:08] <omicron> skillful instead of good

[20:08] <dalet> he slept around but did not want his wife to sleep around

[20:08] <eta> he saved his people from the cave

[20:08] <phi> they like his determination

[20:08] <DWROB> But in typical Greek fashion, the flaws are tangled up with the virtues

[20:08] <yod> its a guy thing

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[20:08] <pi> the flaws are so expected that they're not really flaws

[20:08] <aleph> like when he escapes the cave and then gets cursed because of his ego?

[20:08] <tau> so being smart and strong can be your flaw and your virtue

[20:08] <vav> did he sleep with them to get home?

[20:08] <rho> he is human

[20:08] <beta> he got with some of those women b/c he had too, like Kalypso

[20:09] <DWROB> pi: to a degree -- but he definitely has the vice of arrogance (hubris)

[20:09] <kappa> Flaws are everywhere its how you deal with them

[20:09] <rho> we expect flaws

[20:09] <psi> he had no choice

[20:09] <DWROB> beta : yes, he was bewitched, poor guy

[20:09] <bet> I like it, it makes him seem more human

[20:09] <dalet> it's called chauvinism, yod

[20:09] <delta> flaws are how you perfect the imperfections

[20:09] <chi> Did anyone else lose connection?

[20:09] <epsilon> to fulfill the duty

[20:09] <nu> yeah

[20:09] <vav> yes

[20:09] <psi> yes

[20:09] <DWROB> OK, what about the importance of HOME?

[20:09] <DWROB> Stay on topic

[20:09] <psi> it is what drives him

[20:10] <delta> it is what keeps him going

[20:10] <psi> it is what keeps him going

[20:10] <beta> that was his ultimate destination

[20:10] <he> he faced his challenges on the way home

[20:10] <bet> he is very faithful

[20:10] <aleph> the whole story is based on his journey home

[20:10] <nu> home is where he truly longs to be

[20:10] <tau> his wife ... what keeps him on his journey

[20:10] <kappa> Odysseus always was working its way home

[20:10] <omicron> home is where the family is

[20:10] <rho> goes home to reclaim his life

[20:10] <eta> he has a wife and son waiting for him

[20:10] <vav> he longs to be there

[20:10] <DWROB> Why is home so important?

[20:10] <kappa> his way home

[20:10] <gamma> his entire journey is taking place because he is going home

[20:10] <eta> and a large estate

[20:10] <he> his focus on home is what kept him trucking along

[20:10] <pi> its a goal that should normally be easily obtainable, and the longer he is away from it the harder it seems it will be for him to get back

[20:10] <nu> it keeps him going

[20:10] <mu> that's where he wants to be

[20:10] <chi> he shows his arrogance with Polyphemus, when he tells him his real name

[20:10] <nu> it gives him purpose

[20:10] <aleph> because he has a son he hasn't seen

[20:10] <bet> he stays focused on his goal of returning to his family

[20:10] <omicron> it motivates him

[20:10] <kappa> He hasn't seen his son since he was an infant

[20:10] <tau> it is where he strives to be

[20:10] <vav> Penelope

[20:10] <dalet> is it symbolism

[20:10] <mu> being able to finally see his wife and son

[20:10] <beta> go back to his family and kingdom

[20:10] <bet> he loves his family

[20:10] <omega> he was not good to poke out the cyclopes eye ... Poseidon did not think he was good

[20:10] <omega> yess

[20:10] <omega> he said his name dummy

[20:10] <omega> his wife and son drive him

[20:10] <delta> the entire gist of the story is based on his adventures going home

[20:10] <he> that is where he will reach his goal

[20:10] <he> his family

[20:10] <DWROB> How is O's home different from your home?

[20:10] <gamma> nothing will keep him from getting to his destination

[20:11] <kappa> His wife is by herself

[20:11] <nu> he was king

[20:11] <bet> he is the king

[20:11] <aleph> he is the king

[20:11] <tau> right..he was king

[20:11] <omicron> he runs his home

[20:11] <mu> i don't run my house

[20:11] <rho> lord of the people

[20:11] <yod> i'm single

[20:11] <DWROB> I am thinking more in terms of the the two social orders, his and yours

[20:11] <dalet> the man runs the house in O's home

[20:11] <bet> he has duty to family and country

[20:11] <pi> hes the ruler of a fabulous estate that many men lust for

[20:11] <kappa> he was a king

[20:11] <mu> and i don't have to kill people to inhabit my home

[20:11] <delta> he has very big shoes to fill at home

[20:11] <chi> He is so loved at home and has such love for his home, he did not want to leave in the first place and he has a sone he never really got a chance to have a relationship with

[20:11] <gamma> he is going back to take care of the problems as a ruler

[20:11] <bet> he is really rich

[20:11] <he> the man is the head of the house hold

[20:11] <nu> he was a nobleman

[20:11] <DWROB> What is the political order in Greece at the time of this epic, apparently?

[20:11] <rho> look upon as an leader

[20:11] <bet> he lives well at home

[20:11] <aleph> city states

[20:11] <eta> he had a large estate

[20:11] <epsilon> yes

[20:11] <epsilon> its what helps him get through the hard trials

[20:11] <epsilon> he is leader of his home

[20:12] <pi> peace

[20:12] <DWROB> How i the society organized?

[20:12] <yod> men rule..

[20:12] <pi> the polis

[20:12] <dalet> it was important for the man to be respected in his house

[20:12] <beta> he is ruler

[20:12] <gamma> hierarchical

[20:12] <tau> who ever has the most livestock and stuff rules the land

[20:12] <delta> kings lords peasants

[20:12] <nu> monarchy

[20:12] <yod> women with the home and kids

[20:12] <bet> center of civilization

[20:12] <kappa> different groups lead by different people

[20:12] <vav> based on one man

[20:12] <rho> feudal system

[20:12] <he> the MAN was the head

[20:12] <iota> process of city states being formed

[20:12] <iota> conflict was present

[20:12] <DWROB> Yes -- and everything is broken into tiny states, there is no "Greek" nation

[20:12] <bet> elite rule

[20:12] <phi> his woman is there

[20:12] <phi> he has more responsibility

[20:12] <mu> ruler of the kingdom is passed down

[20:12] <sigma> completion

[20:12] <sigma> city states

[20:12] <sigma> women have no say

[20:13] <bet> like kings of counties

[20:13] <DWROB> only little kingdoms, sort of on he scale of the Kingdom of Brooklet.

[20:13] <delta> hah

[20:13] <DWROB> These are little places, basically extended clans or families

[20:13] <he> each man is the head of his kingdom

[20:13] <chi> If my father dies there wouldn't be a hole hoard of suitors waiting to marry my mom

[20:13] <chi> The society is all about power

[20:13] <DWROB> chi: depends on your father's place in society!

[20:13] <phi> haha

[20:13] <rho> true

[20:13] <omega> when the husband leaves no other men show up try to talk to the wife

[20:13] <kappa> wasn't Italy arranged sort of that way

[20:14] <he> so the man took the dead husbands title?

[20:14] <vav> Why was everyone wanting Penelope

[20:14] <DWROB> The basic unit of governance is the HOUSEHOLD, the "oikos" from which our word "economy" comes

[20:14] <DWROB> The home

[20:14] <pi> she represented the ultimate prize of the leader of their city state

[20:14] <psi> home is everything

[20:14] <DWROB> If you are home, you protect your retainers, or you are protected.

[20:14] <psi> would they then become the leader?

[20:14] <vav> thanks

[20:14] <beta> home is where the heart is

[20:14] <rho> home is good

[20:14] <kappa> home is everything to everyone

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[20:14] <aleph> so everyone would come to Odysseus home to be protected?

[20:14] <pi> yeah pretty much

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[20:14] <tau> he wanted to protect his assets

[20:14] <DWROB> If you travel, you travel in a world without structure or security

[20:14] <mu> so how would one become ruler

[20:14] <kappa> home provides a sense of security

[20:14] <omicron> home has lots of deep meanings behind it

[20:15] <bet> he is the protector and he has the protective role

[20:15] <beta> by conquering others

[20:15] <gamma> his household was the most uplifted

[20:15] <DWROB> mu: inheritance, force of arms, the usual

[20:15] <he> Proclaims himself ruler and defeat whoever challenges him

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[20:15] <mu> ok

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[20:15] <rho> marriage

[20:15] <DWROB> sorry , called away ...

[20:15] <DWROB> OK

[20:15] <bet> he is nothing but a captain when he is away from homer

[20:15] <DWROB> This is the whole social order, the home.

[20:16] <psi> exactly

[20:16] <DWROB> O loses his honor when he can't protect it adequately

[20:16] <chi> Why does it matter if she marries one of the suitors, shouldn't Telemachus have the power left by his dad

[20:16] <kappa> the home means a lot to everyone

[20:16] <rho> the story makes him great

[20:16] <he> yes

[20:16] <DWROB> That's why it is so important to return

[20:16] <beta> man in charge, woman subservient

[20:16] <DWROB> chi: no

[20:16] <gamma> he is going home to defend his name and his rule

[20:16] <psi> because of his honor from the Trojan war

[20:16] <bet> everyone's missing him

[20:16] <omega> but was the home not sacred

[20:16] <omega> well why was O disrespected by all those suitors?

[20:16] <aleph> why wouldn't the son inherit everything?

[20:16] <psi> would be tainted by the loss of his home

[20:16] <DWROB> omega: the suitors are very very stupid

[20:16] <kappa> His honor is like honor to the Chinese?

[20:16] <vav> power and money

[20:17] <DWROB> The flip side of this notion of the home is the notion of HOSPITALITY

[20:17] <bet> pen gives too much

[20:17] <dalet> what is the Greek word for hospitality

[20:17] <kappa> The suitors appear not to competent in what they are trying to do

[20:17] <DWROB> Travelers depend on the hospitality of others, and it is a sacred virtue to be hospitable, protected by Zeus

[20:17] <nu> home was the one place in the world he was safe

[20:17] <delta> hospitality is mentioned a lot

[20:17] <mu> the suitors made themselves at home during O's absence

[20:17] <tau> the suitors were taking advantage of her hospitality

[20:17] <DWROB> To be a bad guest, or a bad host, is to sin against Zeus

[20:17] <mu> except in the Cyclops case

[20:17] <beta> they are just using the hospitality to extremes though

[20:17] <pi> the way pretty much everyone is invited in the house no matter what

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[20:17] <kappa> Phaeacian king was very hospitable toward Odysseus

[20:18] <aleph> everyone takes care of visitors because when they are traveling they want to be taken care of

[20:18] <DWROB> Cyclops == extremely bad host

[20:18] <DWROB> And who are the bad guests?

[20:18] <delta> extremely

[20:18] <bet> suitors

[20:18] <beta> the suitors

[20:18] <eta> the suitors

[20:18] <yod> his men

[20:18] <mu> suitors

[20:18] <nu> the suitors

[20:18] <DWROB> Bad manners to eat your guests

[20:18] <gamma> and he lost his eye and the hands of O

[20:18] <psi> of course they were bad

[20:18] <rho> suitor

[20:18] <kappa> Those who ate Helios' cattle

[20:18] <psi> they ate them

[20:18] <he> suitors that are

[20:18] <omicron> suitors

[20:18] <mu> i agree

[20:18] <delta> the suitors

[20:18] <psi> i would consider that a bad host if they ate me

[20:18] <vav> suitors

[20:18] <DWROB> kappa: yes, and the men are killed for that

[20:18] <tau> well, cyclops got what he deserved

[20:18] <omega> ohh

[20:18] <omega> yes they are in deed

[20:18] <omega> those men

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[20:18] <bet> or to eat your host out of house and home

[20:18] <chi> to regain honor

[20:18] <chi> the suitors are being disrespectful but Telemachus still has to be hospitable because it is his duty

[20:18] <he> bad manners was disrespectful to the gods?

[20:18] <gamma> suitors trying to court with Penelope

[20:18] <rho> food

[20:18] <eta> they took advantage of everything.. freeloaders

[20:19] <aleph> they feel they have a right to be there

[20:19] <DWROB> This explains why O has to kill all of the suitors, not just the ringleaders. Also their women.

[20:19] <beta> exactly

[20:19] <kappa> Suitors were also killed for their actions

[20:19] <iota> can we ask questions about the quiz and discuss them?

[20:19] <phi> O's men

[20:19] <dalet> homer and his shipmates are bad guests at times

[20:19] <DWROB> All have violated a sacred principle in the culture.

[20:19] <gamma> so it was his duty

[20:19] <DWROB> ye

[20:19] <DWROB> ss

[20:19] <DWROB> yes

[20:19] <bet> they were punished in the end

[20:19] <nu> that's tight

[20:19] <he> So that disrespect is to the gods?

[20:19] <he> or to him

[20:19] <pi> both

[20:19] <DWROB> yes

[20:19] <mu> O had the gods on his side

[20:19] <beta> they got what they deserved

[20:19] <kappa> He had a duty to get his honor back by killing the suitors

[20:19] <DWROB> here is another post ... .

[20:19] <DWROB>

[20:19] Last message repeated 3 time(s).

[20:19] <DWROB> Odysseus proves that he is an epic hero by overcoming everything that

[20:19] <DWROB> is thrown at him. He refuses to let anything get him down and succeeds

[20:20] <DWROB> in all challenges he faces. He does all he can to be with his wife

[20:20] <DWROB> again.

[20:20] <DWROB>

[20:20] Last message repeated 3 time(s).

[20:20] <DWROB> Remember how O is described int he first line?

[20:20] <DWROB> "a man never at a loss"

[20:20] <beta> skilled

[20:20] <nu> he is clever

[20:20] <rho> smart

[20:20] <bet> optimist

[20:20] <DWROB> That's a translation of "polytropos" which means "many twists and turns"

[20:20] <chi> that is why when Telm. travels they are very polite and feed him without even asking his name

[20:20] <sigma> can we ask you some questions pertaining to the quiz

[20:20] <DWROB> sigma: no

[20:21] <he> he is crafty

[20:21] <delta> also as a man skilled in all ways of contending

[20:21] epsilon ( joined #2111web.

[20:21] <kappa> He is never at a loss because he works his way out of every situation

[20:21] <DWROB> He is one of the smartest characters in all literature, and his intelligence is of a tactical, practical kind

[20:21] <DWROB> He can get out of any situation

[20:21] <nu> he's the original James Bond

[20:21] <delta> he is much more think before you act unlike Gilgamesh

[20:21] <rho> he has the wiliness to survive

[20:21] <beta> the roman version says he is popular

[20:21] <gamma> his intelligence was his most important attribute

[20:21] <DWROB> and he knows that, and is proud of it ... so this leads to hubris, pride, which is a danger

[20:21] <beta> popular

[20:22] <bet> its his flaw

[20:22] <pi> was the purpose of him hearing the sirens just like an educational one? he knew it would suck but he still wanted to know what it was like?

[20:22] <DWROB> nu: heh

[20:22] <aleph> didn't he need the help of Athena to get out of his last situation to go home?

[20:22] <DWROB> pi: great question -- I'll get to it

[20:22] <DWROB> aleph: About Athena -- who is Athena?

[20:22] <kappa> To much pride can put him in danger with the gods, because it may cross the line of arrogance

[20:22] <beta> that's a good analogy - James bond

[20:22] <omicron> a god

[20:22] <vav> Zeus daughter?

[20:22] <eta> Zeus' daughter

[20:22] <DWROB> god of what?

[20:22] <aleph> the goddess who really likes Odysseus

[20:22] <beta> his patron goddess

[20:22] <bet> goddess of protection

[20:23] <dalet> Athena is the goddess who helps O and T along the way

[20:23] <DWROB> goddess of what?

[20:23] <theta> war

[20:23] <DWROB> war and ... ?

[20:23] <psi> war

[20:23] <eta> god of ... reasonable warfare ... i read that somewhere

[20:23] <psi> love

[20:23] <vav> war'

[20:23] <DWROB> not love

[20:23] <delta> she put a protective mist upon him

[20:23] <bet> protection

[20:23] <DWROB> no

[20:23] <tau> peace?

[20:23] <nu> sport

[20:23] <DWROB> no!

[20:23] <dalet> is she the goddess of wisdom

[20:23] <rho> it's she Zeus wife

[20:23] <upsilon> love

[20:23] <DWROB> WISDOM

[20:23] <DWROB> thanks

[20:23] <phi> she helps him out whenever he needs it

[20:23] <psi> that was a tough one

[20:23] <gamma> goddess of wisdom and battle

[20:23] <DWROB> war and wisdom -- that pretty much sums up O as well

[20:23] <chi> he is on good terms with the gods, except Poseidon

[20:23] <chi> because sometimes his pride makes him go overboard

[20:23] <chi> Athena is the goddess of the hunt

[20:23] <chi> the hunt or the wilderness

[20:23] <nu> so there were 2 gods of war

[20:24] <DWROB> chi: no!

[20:24] <mu> a wise fighter

[20:24] <beta> wisdom and military victory

[20:24] <vav> yep

[20:24] <DWROB> that's Artemis

[20:24] <DWROB> beta: right

[20:24] <iota> but how did Athena help Odysseus?

[20:24] <sigma> Some of the questions on the quiz are too broad and I don't understand, on several of them, exactly how I could answer them.

[20:24] <sigma> war

[20:24] <epsilon> peace

[20:24] <psi> buy arrange his release from Kalypso

[20:24] <dalet> I said wisdom a long time ago

[20:24] <DWROB> So, if you take Athena as a symbol rather than a person, she symbolizes wisdom and strength.

[20:24] <theta> she taught his son to help him

[20:24] <nu> Aires was the god of war

[20:24] <gamma> the shipwreck

[20:24] <kappa> Yeah, wisdom makes sense because she helps Odysseus through everything

[20:24] <aleph> she supported O because he was the ideal of wisdom and battle

[20:24] <DWROB> Let's take a look at a quote from the epic

[20:24] <tau> no wonder she helps O

[20:24] <rho> the same as O

[20:25] <DWROB> tau: right -- she IS O in a way

[20:25] <pi> just like all the gods help individuals because they sorta remind them of themselves in some way

[20:25] <DWROB> Here's Telemachus at the opening --

[20:25] <DWROB>

[20:25] Last message repeated 3 time(s).

[20:25] <DWROB> Long before anyone else, the prince Telemakhos

[20:25] <DWROB> now caught sight of Athena--for he, too,

[20:25] <DWROB> was sitting there unhappy among the suitors,

[20:25] <DWROB> a boy, daydreaming. What if his great father

[20:25] <DWROB> came from the unknown world and drove these men

[20:25] <DWROB> like dead leaves through the place, recovering

[20:25] <DWROB> honor and lordship in his own domains?

[20:25] <DWROB> Then he who dreamed in the crowd gazed out at Athena.

[20:25] <DWROB> Straight to the door he came, irked with himself

[20:25] <DWROB> to think that a visitor had been kept there waiting,

[20:25] <DWROB> and took her right hand, grasping with his left

[20:25] <DWROB> her tall bronze-bladed spear. Then he said warmly:

[20:25] <DWROB> "Greetings, stranger! Welcome to our feast.

[20:25] <DWROB> There will be time tell your errand later."

[20:25] <DWROB> He led the way, and Pallas Athena followed

[20:26] <DWROB> into the lofty hall. The boy reached up

[20:26] <chi> she sends Hermes to tell Calypso to let him go home

[20:26] <chi> he also makes Zeus aware of the situation

[20:26] <DWROB> and thrust her spear high in a polished rack

[20:26] <DWROB> against a pillar where tough spear on spear

[20:26] <DWROB> of the old soldier, his father, stood in order.

[20:26] <DWROB> Then, shaking out a splendid coverlet,

[20:26] <DWROB> he seated her on a throne with footrest--all

[20:26] <DWROB> finely carved--and drew his painted armchair

[20:26] <DWROB> near her, at a distance from the rest.

[20:26] <DWROB> To be amid the din, the suitors' riot,

[20:26] <DWROB> would ruin his guest's appetite, he thought,

[20:26] <DWROB> and he wished privacy to ask for news

[20:26] <omega> two of them

[20:26] <DWROB> about his father, gone for years.

[20:26] <DWROB>

[20:26] <DWROB>

[20:26] <DWROB> Read and comment

[20:26] <DWROB> What does it say about him that he notices Athena at the door and the suitors don't?

[20:26] <aleph> he recognizes that there is something different about this guest

[20:26] <pi> now it keeps saying her but i got the impression she was in the form of a man

[20:26] <bet> did he recognize her?

[20:27] <DWROB> she is

[20:27] <DWROB> no

[20:27] <aleph> he is looking to be a good host

[20:27] <pi> hes a good host

[20:27] <DWROB> he sees a man at the door

[20:27] <kappa> he is smart

[20:27] <omicron> tel wanted help from Athena but he couldn't get it wit all the suitors around

[20:27] yod (~yod@ left irc: Ping timeout

[20:27] <he> he is respectful and hospitable

[20:27] <DWROB> pi: right -- it's that simple, and a basic virtue

[20:27] <vav> can only be seen by him

[20:27] <bet> how could he tell

[20:27] <DWROB> What is his state of mind at the start of this passage?

[20:27] <pi> he saw a new face and inquired on a friendly level

[20:27] <vav> dreamy

[20:27] <aleph> he is upset because of the suitors

[20:27] <dalet> Athena only came for him, she was in disguise as Mentor

[20:27] <nu> he was distant

[20:27] <kappa> daydreaming, he worries about his father

[20:28] <pi> hes not happy

[20:28] <rho> unhappy

[20:28] <he> he is irritated

[20:28] <DWROB> Yes, dreamy, and he is described as a boy

[20:28] <DWROB> what would it take for him to become a man?

[20:28] <vav> yes

[20:28] <aleph> probably go to battle

[20:28] <kappa> fight the suitors off himself?

[20:28] <DWROB> OK ...

[20:28] <rho> troy

[20:28] <he> to prove himself

[20:28] <mu> to take action

[20:28] <nu> to stand up to the suitors

[20:28] <he> troy is over

[20:28] <dalet> war or fighting for honor

[20:28] <pi> kill the suitors and take over for himself

[20:28] <beta> participation in war

[20:28] <aleph> to make a name for himself

[20:28] <gamma> experience the battle for himself

[20:28] <DWROB> hard to do!

[20:28] <delta> to prove he can defend

[20:28] <mu> to look for his father

[20:28] <phi> he sees through her disguise

[20:28] <DWROB> How can he prepare for all of that?

[20:28] <kappa> Hard, but it would make him a man

[20:28] yod (~yod@ joined #2111web.

[20:28] <dalet> take care of the household

[20:29] <he> go on a journey?

[20:29] <nu> with Athena's help

[20:29] <eta> he sees her as a guest?

[20:29] <vav> Athena helps

[20:29] <DWROB> they would kill him in a moment -- how can he win?

[20:29] <kappa> practice

[20:29] <epsilon> hospitable

[20:29] <epsilon> not happy

[20:29] <aleph> with Athena's help

[20:29] <kappa> wits and wisdom

[20:29] <delta> with Athena

[20:29] <beta> Athena puts courage in his heart

[20:29] <bet> get help

[20:29] <pi> he needs help

[20:29] <mu> to get help and find his father

[20:29] <iota> So Athena wanted to help tele. to find Odysseus?

[20:29] <vav> with the gods help

[20:29] <omicron> use his mind

[20:29] <kappa> help of gods

[20:29] <omicron> out think them

[20:29] <bet> gather others

[20:29] <DWROB> omicron: his mind, BINGO

[20:29] <vav> Zeus and Athena

[20:29] <omega> i think he knew it was her and wanted to set them up

[20:29] <omega> he kind of antsy

[20:29] <omega> be the protector

[20:29] <eta> he is wise ...

[20:29] <gamma> by having his father

[20:29] <he> to use his cunning

[20:29] <sigma> he is worried

[20:29] <sigma> for him to earn it

[20:29] <sigma> He has to earn his privilege to be a man

[20:29] <DWROB> he needs both wisdom and strength

[20:29] <nu> just like his father

[20:29] <beta> and courage

[20:29] <rho> out think the suitors

[20:29] <bet> he needs esteem

[20:30] <DWROB> So, in other words, what does it mean symbolically when Athena shows up?

[20:30] <chi> it shows that he honors the code of hospitality and that he is more perceptive

[20:30] <chi> he is tired of the suitors antics

[20:30] <chi> he has to find news of his father

[20:30] <chi> practice with the spears

[20:30] <kappa> the battle has begun

[20:30] <omicron> it gives him encouragement

[20:30] <beta> that she will help like she helps his dad

[20:30] <vav> mother

[20:30] <pi> like father like son

[20:30] <dalet> wisdom and strength

[20:30] <tau> wisdom

[20:30] <delta> his motivation to get things rolling

[20:30] <aleph> he is ready to begin his journey to become a man

[20:30] <he> the he is going to become a man

[20:30] <nu> she likes him

[20:30] <bet> she will help him with war and wisdom

[20:30] <upsilon> for wisdom and her help

[20:30] <gamma> she will guide T also

[20:30] <DWROB> Yes, he is coming into manhood, about to take action

[20:30] <DWROB> Athena is both a real character and a state of T's mind -- BOTH

[20:30] <pi> wisdom and strength just showed up at his door

[20:30] <DWROB> The poem often works like that

[20:31] <DWROB> pi: exactly

[20:31] <pi> it says she changes something in his heart

[20:31] <DWROB> they are attributes in HIM

[20:31] <gamma> Athena is somewhat of the father figure he is searching for

[20:31] <bet> she brings them out

[20:31] <kappa> he never really had a father

[20:31] <epsilon> Athena will be with him

[20:31] <DWROB> No, she is the urge to seek and emulate that father figure

[20:31] <gamma> ok

[20:31] <delta> to regain what was lost

[20:31] <omega> she is like the apollo log

[20:31] <rho> he does win with his mind at the end

[20:31] <bet> to push and assist tel

[20:32] <DWROB> omega -- ?

[20:32] <sigma> so Athena gives these to him?

[20:32] <sigma> does she bring his attributes out of him?

[20:32] <delta> yes

[20:32] <rho> gives him the drive

[20:32] <chi> he is gaining wisdom since she is wisdom

[20:32] <chi> everyone seeks knowledge of their parents

[20:32] <DWROB> sigma: she is a manifestation of those attributes; plot-wise, literally, she is an advisor to him

[20:32] <phi> she is there because she owes it to him

[20:32] <DWROB> but she also is a symbol

[20:32] <kappa> Athena changes Telemachus by giving strength and wisdom and showing him what to do

[20:32] <eta> Athena makes it all happen for them pretty much

[20:33] <aleph> she has to be a real figure to. She is able to take other people forms to do work.

[20:33] <kappa> Athena brings it all together for O and T

[20:33] <DWROB> Actually, only T can make it happen

[20:33] <DWROB> by embodying what Athena represents

[20:33] <rho> she is a symbol that all that humans have come from the gods

[20:33] <bet> does she symbolize O like being a father to tel

[20:33] <dalet> that's why her other name is MENTOR

[20:33] <nu> he's got the gift he has to use it

[20:33] <kappa> Mentor seemed to play a key role and be a keyword in the story

[20:33] <gamma> but she is the confidence he needs to believe in himself

[20:34] <iota> For the 2nd time ... what does Athena actually do to help them?

[20:34] <DWROB> OK, another quote, Odysseus now. Let's see how this guy operates.

[20:34] <delta> she only symbolizes what he already possesses

[20:34] <epsilon> she gives him the wisdom and strength to find O

[20:34] <DWROB> This is in the land of the Phaeacians, when O appears before the king in his great hall.

[20:34] <omega> the apollo log is like luck something to aspire to

[20:34] <omega> it motivates

[20:34] <kappa> O is a great tactician speaker

[20:34] <DWROB> King Alkinoos speaking ... .

[20:34] <DWROB>

[20:34] Last message repeated 3 time(s).

[20:34] <DWROB> (303, Alkinoos)

[20:34] <DWROB> "Friend, I, for one have certain questions for you.

[20:34] <DWROB> Who are you, and who has given you this clothing?

[20:34] <DWROB> Did you not say you wandered here by sea?"

[20:34] <DWROB> The great tactician carefully replied:

[20:34] <DWROB> "Ah, majesty, what labor it would be

[20:34] <DWROB> to go through the whole story! All my years

[20:34] <DWROB> of misadventures, given by those on high!

[20:34] <DWROB> But this you ask is quickly told:

[20:35] <DWROB> In mid-ocean lies Ogygia, the island

[20:35] <DWROB> haunt of Kalypso, Atlas guileful daughter,

[20:35] <DWROB> a lovely goddess and a dangerous one. No one, no god or man, consorts with her;

[20:35] <DWROB> but supernatural power brought me there

[20:35] <DWROB> to be her solitary guest: for Zeus

[20:35] <sigma> thanks

[20:35] <DWROB> let fly with his bright bolt and split my ship,

[20:35] <DWROB> rolling me over the winedark sea ... ."

[20:35] <DWROB> Then 16 pages later ...

[20:35] <DWROB> (319)

[20:35] <DWROB> "I am Laertes son, Odysseus.

[20:35] <DWROB> Men hold me

[20:35] <DWROB> formidable for guile in peace and war:

[20:35] <DWROB> this fame has gone abroad to the sky's rim."

[20:35] <DWROB>

[20:35] <DWROB>

[20:36] <DWROB> Why is the "great tactician" so "careful"?

[20:36] <he> not to offend him?

[20:36] <aleph> because he does not wish to upset his host

[20:36] <yod> so he can return home

[20:36] <kappa> Doesn't Poseidon like them

[20:36] <bet> he wants to be humble in front of another leader?

[20:36] <nu> to not let him know why he has had so much trouble

[20:36] <DWROB> consider his situation

[20:36] gamma6 ( joined #2111web.

[20:36] <omicron> he wants to be a good guest

[20:36] <DWROB> nu: why not?

[20:36] <aleph> the clothes are from his host's daughter

[20:36] <nu> because they would turn him away

[20:37] <DWROB> What is the danger to him if he quickly reveals his identity?

[20:37] <he> because it is no problem of O

[20:37] <nu> for fear that he would bring trouble to them

[20:37] <kappa> He doesn't want to give away to mush information until he knows how they will react to what he says

[20:37] <aleph> they might not trust him

[20:37] <psi> it would cause trouble

[20:37] <DWROB> kappa: good

[20:37] <rho> they would kill him

[20:37] <dalet> they will reap the wrath of the gods

[20:37] <DWROB> why kill him?

[20:37] GSUser ( joined #2111web.

[20:37] <psi> because of his name

[20:37] <bet> the host would not want to keep this man who brings trouble

[20:37] <nu> so they do bot anger the gods

[20:37] <rho> jealousy

[20:37] <DWROB> bet: right

[20:37] <chi> in the same way that O has done

[20:37] <chi> because if he offends the gods he will never get home

[20:37] <chi> and he might annoy his hosts to say such things in their house

[20:37] <he> ah

[20:37] <phi> doesn't want to upset him

[20:37] <phi> might get punished somehow

[20:38] <DWROB> He is the greatest, fiercest, most crafty and dangerous man in the world.

[20:38] <psi> they fear him

[20:38] <aleph> he is cunning

[20:38] <DWROB> How would you feel if he showed up at your door?

[20:38] <dalet> too much drama

[20:38] <psi> they would kill what they fear

[20:38] <he> certain death

[20:38] <nu> intimidated

[20:38] <delta> scared

[20:38] <vav> frightful

[20:38] <bet> a little intimidated

[20:38] <aleph> I would be very careful to know what he wants

[20:38] <DWROB> right

[20:38] <mu> i would fear him

[20:38] <tau> too much trouble

[20:38] <pi> he has to seduce them to his side before he can reveal himself

[20:38] <rho> run

[20:38] <theta> fearful

[20:38] <kappa> O brings a lot of "baggage" because of his travels and troubles

[20:38] <mu> might not let him in

[20:38] <gamma6> intimidated

[20:38] <sigma> doesn't went to let on about everything

[20:38] <sigma> besides his ship splitting, what other trouble did O get into after Cyclops?

[20:38] <vav> I would also want him gone

[20:38] <DWROB> so he waits 16 pages to tell the whole truth, and in the mean time entertains them with his tales

[20:38] <yod> in those times are current times?

[20:38] <epsilon> he trying to be hospitable

[20:38] <epsilon> doesn't want to cause trouble

[20:38] <bet> smart man

[20:39] <DWROB> yod -- ?

[20:39] <aleph> he shows that he means well and is just trying to get home

[20:39] <he> sorta feeling out the crowd

[20:39] <mu> want to be a good guest as well as not alarm them

[20:39] <iota> he will be attacked

[20:39] <delta> hospitality comes to play and story telling is a way of life

[20:39] <gamma6> when his crew became jealous and believed he was given gold and they opened the bag and let the wind out

[20:39] <yod> would i let him in my house today or back in the days of the story?

[20:39] <kappa> He even competes against them in their events

[20:39] <he> he had to pick the right time to tell them he couldn't just open up with that at the door

[20:39] <DWROB> yod: Oh -- I meant now!

[20:39] <omega> I think he is holden back, but wants to say more but in his surroundings he bites his tongue more

[20:39] <chi> because he has been with their daughter unsupervised

[20:39] <chi> frightened that aiding him might annoy the gods

[20:39] gamma ( left irc: Ping timeout

[20:40] <yod> probably have my guard up

[20:40] <DWROB> Another quote now -- talking to the Cyclops ... .

[20:40] <DWROB>

[20:40] Last message repeated 4 time(s).

[20:40] <DWROB> (325-326, in the Cyclops' cave)

[20:40] <DWROB> "We are form Troy, Akaians, blown off course

[20:40] <DWROB> by shifting gales on the Great South Sea;

[20:40] <DWROB> homeward bound, but taking routes and ways

[20:40] <DWROB> uncommon; so the will of Zeus would have it.

[20:40] <DWROB> ... .

[20:40] <DWROB> We would entreat you, Great Sir, have a care

[20:40] <DWROB> for the gods' courtesy; Zeus will avenge the unoffending guest."

[20:40] <DWROB> He answered this

[20:40] <DWROB> from his brute chest, unmoved:

[20:40] <DWROB> "You are a ninny,

[20:40] <DWROB> or else you come from the other end of nowhere,

[20:40] <DWROB> telling me, mind the gods! We Kyklopes

[20:40] <DWROB> care not a whistle for your thundering Zeus

[20:40] <DWROB> or all the gods in bliss; we have more force by far ... ."

[20:40] <DWROB> Neither reply nor pity came from him,

[20:40] <DWROB> but in one stride he clutched at my companions

[20:40] <DWROB> and caught two in his hands like squirming puppies

[20:40] <DWROB> to beat their brains out, spattering the floor.

[20:40] <DWROB> Then he dismembered them and made his meal,

[20:40] <DWROB> gaping and crunching like a mountain lion --

[20:40] <DWROB> everything: innards, flesh, and marrow bones.

[20:41] <DWROB> We cried aloud, lifting our hands to Zeus,

[20:41] <DWROB> powerless, looking on at this, appalled."

[20:41] <DWROB>

[20:41] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:41] <DWROB> bad, bad host

[20:41] GSUser ( left irc: Quit

[20:41] <psi> he is a very bad host

[20:41] <aleph> he doesn't care what Zeus does

[20:41] <DWROB> Notice again that he doesn't reveal his identity

[20:41] <he> scary

[20:41] <kappa> O tries to be a good guest but Kyklopes just doesn't like them or their gods

[20:41] <nu> they pay

[20:41] <tau> cyclops got what he deserved for being a bad host

[20:41] <psi> Zeus has no say to them

[20:41] <dalet> whats the Greek word for HOST?

[20:41] <aleph> that helps him escape later

[20:41] <bet> not till after he leaves

[20:41] <eta> yes bad host ... he starts out nice, but then eats them up

[20:41] <DWROB> what does O give as his name when Polyphemus asks?

[20:42] <psi> but if they say the gods don't bother them, why did he send Poseidon after them

[20:42] <chi> the hole story is told by story telling

[20:42] <chi> O even warns him to be a good host

[20:42] <aleph> nobody

[20:42] <gamma6> nobody

[20:42] <delta> in his eyes he is all powerful who cares about Zeus

[20:42] <bet> nobody

[20:42] <mu> Nobody

[20:42] <dalet> nobody

[20:42] <kappa> Nobody

[20:42] <DWROB> Did you read the footnote to get the pun?

[20:42] <gamma6> he knew the cyclops was an idiot

[20:42] <iota> can you please answer sigma question b/c i would like to know also

[20:42] <rho> Nobody

[20:42] <vav> maybe so the king can guess who he is

[20:42] <mu> very smart thinking

[20:42] <delta> he doesn't give it

[20:42] <kappa> yes

[20:42] <bet> yep funny

[20:42] <dalet> nope. made sense at the end

[20:42] <psi> because Poseidon is his mother right

[20:42] <he> he knew he could outsmart cyclops

[20:42] <kaf> He did that as a tactic to get out of the cave

[20:42] <tau> yes ... so cyclops would say nobody came to dinner

[20:42] <aleph> he was using his wisdom

[20:42] <eta> Poseidon is his father

[20:43] <DWROB> sigma: repeat question

[20:43] <kappa> Wit and wisdom can easily beat brute strength

[20:43] <phi> nobody

[20:43] <DWROB> "outis" or nobody sounds like Odysseus ...

[20:43] <DWROB> So he is *almost* telling the truth

[20:43] <bet> close

[20:43] <rho> yes

[20:44] <beta> oh, ok

[20:44] <DWROB> and of course this leads to the comical scene where blind P. screams: "help -- nobody is blinding me!"

[20:44] <epsilon> cyclopes deserved what he got for not being a good host

[20:44] <epsilon> He tells him noone

[20:44] <chi> he is very thrifty

[20:44] <chi> Nobody

[20:44] <chi> I missed it

[20:44] <chi> It makes a better story that way

[20:44] <eta> oh wow

[20:44] <sigma> Besides O's ship being destroyed, what other trouble did he get into after his encounter with Cyclops?

[20:44] <kappa> That was a humorous scene

[20:44] <bet> and nobody helps him

[20:44] <psi> he told them who he was

[20:44] <omega> scary host that no one would know of this cause you would eaten before you could tell

[20:44] <omega> his skill of strategy

[20:44] <omega> somewhat

[20:44] <beta> so O is clever after all

[20:44] <mu> he had it all planned out

[20:44] <he> he had to escape

[20:44] <mu> its like he knew what the Cyclops was going to say

[20:45] <chi> that is my fav

[20:45] <DWROB> sigma: This is the start of the really bad stuff, and when O reveals his REAL name out of boasting pride, P curses him in Poseidon name -- BAD NEWS

[20:45] <bet> hes crafty

[20:45] <aleph> he is quick to figure out how to get our of situations

[20:45] <he> ok because he knew

[20:45] <kappa> Very bad news

[20:45] <psi> not good at all

[20:45] <beta> not so clever after all ...

[20:45] <aleph> his ego caused his downfall from there

[20:45] <dalet> too smart for his own good

[20:45] <rho> think before reacting

[20:45] <DWROB> Yes

[20:45] <gamma6> you don't want the gods after you

[20:45] <kappa> He is skillful and smart but still very human in the sense of making mistakes

[20:45] <bet> not smarts just pride

[20:45] <psi> i know my ego would do the same

[20:45] <DWROB> But he is still able to figure out an escape

[20:46] <delta> he is clever to get out of the situation however boasts when he is out trouble!!

[20:46] <vav> clever

[20:46] <phi> twist on the truth

[20:46] <DWROB> Now let's go back to the question about the Sirens

[20:46] <rho> that why he is an epic hero

[20:46] <DWROB> Why does O want to hear the Sirens?

[20:46] <eta> he is curious

[20:46] <theta> because everyone does

[20:46] <DWROB> rho: in part, yes

[20:46] <dalet> curiosity

[20:46] <psi> to see whats its like

[20:46] <aleph> to be able to boast later on that he escaped them

[20:46] <kappa> To know when they are done and curiosity

[20:46] <bet> curious

[20:46] <psi> a pride thing that he could make it

[20:46] <theta> that's the whole point of the Sirens

[20:46] <rho> to hear what all the fuss is about

[20:46] <DWROB> theta: yes, but he wants to live

[20:46] <omicron> it gives him knowledge

[20:46] <beta> foolish curiosity

[20:46] <mu> because it lures everyone to them

[20:46] <he> he is wondering about them

[20:46] <psi> that is why he ties him self up

[20:46] <psi> so he lives through it

[20:46] <omega> funny

[20:46] <omega> the best

[20:46] <omega> he was too cocky for his own good

[20:46] <delta> he wants to hear and know

[20:46] <dalet> their sound is ecstatic

[20:46] <DWROB> beta: it's not foolish if he can survive through his craft

[20:46] <psi> and tells his crew to now let him go

[20:47] <gamma6> curiosity and pride he can escape them

[20:47] <dalet> ecstasy

[20:47] <beta> to prove he can survive the temptation

[20:47] <DWROB> delta: KNOW what???

[20:47] <theta> yes, but temptation often tries to overcome common sense with humans

[20:47] <chi> he gets caught in the moment and screws it up in the end

[20:47] <pi> its wisdom, its an experience that most don't get to have and even fewer live through

[20:47] <tau> yeah ... but he almost went mad

[20:47] <beta> another prideful thing to do

[20:47] <sigma> it is very smart how he and his men escape the cave!

[20:47] <DWROB> What does he hope to know or learn -- that's the right question!

[20:47] <psi> to maybe tell people about the experience

[20:47] <aleph> if he will fall prey to them

[20:47] <DWROB> Let's look what the Sirens say to him ... ..

[20:47] <DWROB>

[20:47] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:47] <dalet> why it drives men crazy

[20:47] <DWROB>

[20:47] <bet> what he can and cant withstand

[20:47] <vav> how they draw in men to kill

[20:47] <DWROB>

[20:47] <kappa> The way home

[20:47] <DWROB>

[20:47] Last message repeated 1 time(s).

[20:47] <omicron> how to resist the irresistible

[20:47] <DWROB>

[20:48] Last message repeated 7 time(s).

[20:48] <theta> i'm not seeing anything ...

[20:48] <DWROB> This way, oh turn your bows,

[20:48] <DWROB> Akhaia's glory,

[20:48] <chi> because he is O and his arrogance gets the best of him, plus he will be the only one to have survived

[20:48] <chi> it also makes a great story for later

[20:48] <chi> he wants to know what is so luring

[20:48] <DWROB> As all the world allows --

[20:48] <psi> to prove it is not irresistible

[20:48] <DWROB> Moor and be merry.

[20:48] <DWROB> Sweet coupled airs we sing.

[20:48] <DWROB> No lonely seafarer

[20:48] <DWROB> Holds clear of entering

[20:48] <DWROB> Our green mirror.

[20:48] <DWROB> Pleased by each purling note

[20:48] <DWROB> Like honey twining

[20:48] <DWROB> From her throat and my throat,

[20:48] <DWROB> Who lies a-pining?

[20:48] <DWROB> Sea rovers here take joy

[20:48] <DWROB> Voyaging onward,

[20:48] <DWROB> As from our song of Troy

[20:48] <epsilon> curiosity

[20:48] <epsilon> to see why people cant make it past

[20:48] <epsilon> that's why he is tied up

[20:48] <DWROB> Greybeard and rower-boy

[20:48] <DWROB> Goeth more learn-ed.

[20:48] <iota> b/c one person must hear them

[20:48] <iota> So I don't understand where o had been the whole time ... .

[20:48] <iota> all 10 years he was missing

[20:48] <DWROB> All feats in that great field

[20:48] <DWROB> In the long warfare,

[20:48] <DWROB> Dark days the bright gods willed,

[20:48] <DWROB> Wounds you bore there,

[20:48] <DWROB> Argos' old soldiery

[20:48] <DWROB> On Troy beach teeming,

[20:49] <xi> he wants to see if their voices are like

[20:49] <DWROB> Charmed out of time we see.

[20:49] <DWROB> No life on earth can be

[20:49] <DWROB> Hid from our dreaming.

[20:49] <DWROB>

[20:49] Last message repeated 3 time(s).

[20:49] <DWROB> The usual line from the Sirens is something like "Hey, Sailor ... ."

[20:49] <DWROB> But what do they sing to O?

[20:49] <DWROB> He is eight years a prisoner on Calypso's island

[20:49] <pi> can people refrain from typing anything when he's quoting stuff

[20:49] <DWROB> What do the Siren's say?

[20:49] <DWROB> pi: thanks

[20:49] <aleph> they have been waiting for him

[20:49] <dalet> is it sexual

[20:49] <DWROB> yes ...

[20:49] <DWROB> no!

[20:49] <DWROB> not for O

[20:49] <kappa> Maybe he hopes to learn how his family is doing, maybe they knew and could tell him

[20:49] <eta> I don't know..

[20:49] <bet> the are appealing to his pride and telling him how good he did in troy

[20:50] <DWROB> for regular sailors, of course, but not O

[20:50] <he> they were waiting on him to come they were expecting him

[20:50] <DWROB> bet: Exactly.

[20:50] <DWROB> they know their intended victim well

[20:50] <DWROB> And he would have jumped!

[20:50] <bet> pride

[20:50] <mu> so they mocked him to come

[20:50] <delta> they know they can win him by speaking good things about him to him

[20:50] <vav> that is why he is tied

[20:50] <rho> yes

[20:50] <DWROB> So What benefit does O get from hearing this, from having this experience?

[20:50] <gamma6> that is why the temptation is so great b/c it boosted his pride

[20:50] <kappa> They are trying to build him up make him want to go to them which he wants to but is tied up

[20:51] <delta> more ego boast

[20:51] GSUser ( joined #2111web.

[20:51] <tau> ego

[20:51] <aleph> to know he cannot be stronger than everything

[20:51] <rho> confidence boost

[20:51] <DWROB> no ...

[20:51] <nu> he realizes pride is his weakness

[20:51] <DWROB> nu: yes!

[20:51] <bet> he is now aware of his flaw

[20:51] <DWROB> he gains the most important kind of knowledge -- SELF KNOWLEDGE

[20:51] <beta> climactic?

[20:51] <gamma6> it symbolizes the changing of his persona

[20:51] <kappa> He is flawed and knows where

[20:51] <he> he realizes that he is all pride and he is somewhat weak

[20:51] <omega> nearly drove him mad not to go to them

[20:51] <DWROB> The inscription over the temple of the oracle at Delphi said "Know thyself"

[20:51] <rho> use this to his benefit

[20:51] <he> he realizes a lot from the sirens

[20:51] <chi> that he is curious

[20:51] <DWROB> Hard to do, but this epic hero pulls it off

[20:52] phi ( left irc: Ping timeout

[20:52] <gamma6> similar to Gilgamesh's changing

[20:52] <beta> he only knew to tie himself up b/c of Athena though

[20:52] <epsilon> they know he a dreamed of them and they have been waiting

[20:52] <epsilon> he is prideful they know that's what he wants to hear

[20:52] <epsilon> his flaw is pride

[20:52] <DWROB> He is an intellectual as well as military hero, remember

[20:52] <sigma> the system is messing up tonight, so people can't help

[20:52] <he> know life and respect it

[20:52] <eta> pride always seems to be the greatest flaw

[20:52] <bet> all around awesome guy

[20:52] <DWROB> Let's take a look at the bow scene ... .

[20:52] <DWROB>

[20:53] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:53] <DWROB> And Odysseus took his time,

[20:53] <DWROB> turning the bow, tapping it, every inch,

[20:53] <DWROB> for borings that termites might have made

[20:53] <DWROB> while the master of the weapon was abroad.

[20:53] <DWROB> The suitors were watching him, and some

[20:53] <DWROB> jested among themselves:

[20:53] <DWROB> "A bow lover!"

[20:53] <DWROB> "Dealer in old bows!"

[20:53] <DWROB> "Maybe he has one like it at home!"

[20:53] <DWROB> "Or has an itch to make one for himself!"

[20:53] <DWROB> "See how he handles it, the sly old buzzard!"

[20:53] <DWROB> And one disdainful suitor added this:

[20:53] <DWROB> "May his fortune grow an inch for every inch he bends it!"

[20:53] <DWROB> But the man skilled in all ways of contending,

[20:53] <DWROB> satisfied by the great bow's look and heft,

[20:53] <DWROB> like a musician, like a harper, when

[20:53] <DWROB> with quiet hand upon his instrument

[20:53] <DWROB> he draws between his thumb and forefinger

[20:53] <DWROB> a sweet new string upon a peg: so effortlessly

[20:53] <DWROB> Odysseus in one motion strung the bow.

[20:53] <DWROB> Then slid his right hand down the cord and plucked it,

[20:53] <DWROB> so the taut gut vibrating hummed and sang

[20:53] <DWROB> a swallow's note.

[20:53] <DWROB> In the hushed hall it smote the suitors

[20:53] <DWROB> and all their faces changed.

[20:53] <DWROB>

[20:53] <DWROB>

[20:53] <DWROB> Read ... and consider: what is O's attitude or behavior here?

[20:53] <kappa> Pride and arrogance seem to be a great flaw for heroes

[20:53] <DWROB> gamma6: good connection of O's and g's enlightenment

[20:54] <delta> again boastful

[20:54] <gamma6> he was the only one that could string the bow and he knew it

[20:54] <chi> he was able to see how his pride could be a downfall

[20:54] <DWROB> Boastful?

[20:54] <dalet> very confident

[20:54] <omicron> he's going real slow

[20:54] <bet> its all for show

[20:54] <he> Is he trying to intimidate the suitors?

[20:54] <DWROB> no, not for show ... .

[20:54] <kappa> O seems to be biding his time and seeing how they react

[20:54] <nu> he is letting them know they are screwed

[20:54] <DWROB> no, he doesn't have to intimidate

[20:54] <vav> this is mine and you cant have it

[20:54] <DWROB> intimidate

[20:54] <aleph> he is just showing what he is and that they had better beware

[20:54] <omega> it is like the good guy must prevail in the end type of story

[20:54] <DWROB> aleph: right

[20:54] <delta> Confident and he knew what he was doing

[20:54] <rho> most action movies are written after this

[20:54] <bet> its hard to pull a bow

[20:54] <omicron> he's making them think

[20:55] <beta> like a threat?

[20:55] <gamma6> he realizes the tremendous abilities he has been given

[20:55] <eta> he was a master with he bow right?

[20:55] <he> would that not be intimidation

[20:55] <DWROB> this is the climactic discovery scene -- the truth comes out -- that it is O and he is incomparably superior to these jerks

[20:55] <pi> what a bad ass

[20:55] <aleph> he has come back to win his house

[20:55] <DWROB> What's the point of comparing him to a musician?

[20:55] <dalet> that's why Penelope had him do the bow trick

[20:55] <pi> hes an artist

[20:55] <bet> he does it with ease

[20:55] <he> he is graceful

[20:56] <delta> to show his skillfulness

[20:56] <DWROB> An artist ! yes

[20:56] <beta> definitely James Bond-ish

[20:56] <vav> did not understand that one

[20:56] <aleph> he and the bow were like one like a musician

[20:56] <gamma6> such a simple act shows so much ability

[20:56] <kappa> Showing his skill and competence in his work of mastery

[20:56] <pi> hes so good at it its beautiful to watch

[20:56] <DWROB> pi: perfectly put

[20:56] <dalet> like a musician is a master of music, O was a master at archery

[20:56] <DWROB> He is completely absorbed in his preparation to assume command -- a lovely sight

[20:56] <sigma> for most men too

[20:56] <sigma> I also want to know the answer to what iota asked

[20:56] <rho> perfection

[20:56] <mu> he makes something so hard seem so easy

[20:56] <epsilon> prideful, intimidation

[20:56] <epsilon> isn't that the same as intimidation

[20:57] <mu> just like musicians

[20:57] <DWROB> iota: restate question

[20:57] <DWROB> epsilon: right

[20:57] <kappa> Its like watching an artist in their most outstanding achievement

[20:57] <chi> he is taking his time and showing the men why it is his house, because he is smarter then they are and will not respond to their taunts

[20:57] <chi> to show that he is artful at the bow

[20:57] <DWROB> One more scene to quote -- Penelope

[20:57] <DWROB>

[20:57] Last message repeated 3 time(s).

[20:57] <DWROB> [Penelope] said:

[20:57] <DWROB> "Strange man,

[20:57] <DWROB> if man you are . . . This is no pride on my part

[20:57] <DWROB> nor scorn for you -- not even wonder, merely,

[20:57] <DWROB> I know so well how you -- how he -- appeared

[20:57] <DWROB> boarding the ship for Troy. But all the same . . .

[20:58] <DWROB> Make up the bed for him, Eurykleia.

[20:58] <DWROB> Place it outside the bedchamber my lord

[20:58] <chi> he doesn't need to intimidate he knows he is superior, and doesn't have to try to prove it

[20:58] <DWROB> built with his own hands. Pile the big bed

[20:58] <DWROB> with fleeces, rugs, and sheets of purest linen."

[20:58] <DWROB> With this she tried him to the breaking point,

[20:58] <DWROB> and he turned on her in a flash raging:

[20:58] <DWROB> "Woman, by heaven you've stung me now!

[20:58] <DWROB> Who dared to move my bed?

[20:58] <DWROB> No builder had the skill for that -- unless

[20:58] <DWROB> a god came down to turn the trick. No mortal

[20:58] <DWROB> in his best days could budge it with a crowbar.

[20:58] <DWROB> There is our pact and pledge, our secret sign,

[20:58] <DWROB> built into that bed -- my handiwork

[20:58] <DWROB> and no one else's!

[20:58] <DWROB> An old trunk of olive

[20:58] <DWROB> grew like a pillar on the building plot,

[20:58] <DWROB> and I laid our bedroom round that tree . . . .

[20:58] <DWROB> Then I lopped off the silvery leaves and branches,

[20:58] <DWROB> hewed and shaped that stump from the roots up

[20:58] <DWROB> into a bedpost . . . .

[20:58] <DWROB>

[20:58] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:58] <DWROB> Penelope wants assurances it is really O ... it's been 20 years, after all.

[20:58] <omega> and they resent the whole thing, but it does not matter they die anyway

[20:59] <DWROB> What proofs of his identity is she looking for?

[20:59] <kappa> She has to test him

[20:59] <iota> ok i am lost, i would like to know where o was during his absence

[20:59] <aleph> that he knows about the bedpost

[20:59] <omicron> she thinks it is too good to believe

[20:59] <nu> only he know the bed can't be moved

[20:59] <bet> he knows the bed is made out of a tree

[20:59] <he> she knew he would know about the bed

[20:59] <rho> secret sign

[20:59] <delta> she is looking for him to put her back in line

[20:59] <eta> he knows exactly how it was made ...

[20:59] <tau> he made the bed

[20:59] <kappa> The fact the bed can't be moved because one of the bedposts is a tree still in the ground

[20:59] <gamma6> the inability to move the bed

[20:59] <DWROB> iota: one year traveling, one year with Circe, eight years with Calypso

[20:59] <upsilon> only he knows about the bed because he made it

[20:59] <dalet> something so intimate only her husband would know

[20:59] <rho> knowledge of the bed

[21:00] <DWROB> : good -- the marital secret of the bed -- a special bed, rooted in the ground

[21:00] <mu> he built the room around the tree so it is rooted down

[21:00] <he> yes

[21:00] <DWROB> A great symbol of their solid marriage that can survive twenty years of absence.

[21:00] <beta> was she completely faithful to him for all 20 yrs?

[21:00] <dalet> a symbol of their marriage and love for each other

[21:00] <mu> he thought she got rid of it and got mad

[21:00] <DWROB> presumably

[21:00] <mu> that's how she knew

[21:00] <chi> that he knows the truth about their bed and that he still knows and cares about the symbolicness it has in reference to their marriage

[21:01] <DWROB> OK, that's not the only test, though -- how else can she tell it's O?

[21:01] <delta> she knew that if she did something different to their old way he would flip

[21:01] <vav> the bow

[21:01] <aleph> that he is offended by being asked

[21:01] <nu> the way he reacts

[21:01] <bet> his anger

[21:01] <dalet> She could tell by the archery

[21:01] <kappa> His fury about the bed

[21:01] <DWROB> his anger? why is he angry?

[21:01] <DWROB> how is that characteristic?

[21:01] <tau> what about the birthmark or scar on his thigh?

[21:01] <bet> because he made the bed

[21:01] <dalet> she defiled the bed

[21:01] <delta> because she doesn't actually know if it is him

[21:01] <he> pushing him to the "breaking pint"

[21:01] <nu> because he loves her

[21:01] <kappa> because that is a symbol of them

[21:01] <aleph> he is the lord and does not want to be questioned

[21:01] <DWROB> how is the anger characteristic?

[21:01] <pi> its a pride thing, how dare she move the be he built

[21:01] <chi> yes she was

[21:01] <DWROB> PRIDE, thank you

[21:02] <omicron> because all of the suitors have turned their back on him

[21:02] <gamma6> b/c nobody else had seen the bed

[21:02] <mu> because he never got angry before

[21:02] <omega> his eyes

[21:02] <omega> only he can string it

[21:02] <bet> his pride was hurt

[21:02] <DWROB> Exactly

[21:02] <delta> he was a prideful man

[21:02] <eta> ahh pride.. always

[21:02] <DWROB> Now she can say, "Yes, that's my Odysseus!"

[21:02] <beta> so the whole story revolves around his pride

[21:02] <kappa> She knows him all to well

[21:02] sigma ( left irc: Ping timeout

[21:02] <bet> we know the ones we love flaw and all

[21:02] <pi> its just something defining about him

[21:02] <delta> why did she weave and unweave the thread day and night?

[21:02] <DWROB> So who is the more clever tactician, O or Penelope? :-)

[21:02] <GSUser> his rage

[21:02] <aleph> in the end, Penelope

[21:02] <tau> both equally

[21:02] <dalet> P!

[21:02] <pi> Penelope

[21:02] <gamma6> Penelope

[21:02] <beta> Penelope of course!

[21:03] <yod> p!

[21:03] <mu> I would still say O

[21:03] <bet> both

[21:03] <kappa> O because he is proven several times

[21:03] <rho> he learns to live with his pride, both

[21:03] <DWROB> She is the only one who ever succeeds in tricking him

[21:03] <gamma6> a match made in heaven

[21:03] <aleph> O should have figured out what she was doing

[21:03] <DWROB> indeed

[21:03] <bet> ahhhh!

[21:03] <mu> o good point

[21:03] <tau> oh ... didn't think about that

[21:03] <he> she knows him all to well

[21:03] <beta> of course a guy would still think O

[21:03] <DWROB> yes

[21:03] <yod> P was faithful

[21:03] <mu> but that's still does not make it her

[21:03] <eta> well Penelope unloaded on the tactics all at once

[21:03] <DWROB> OK, we are done.

[21:03] <DWROB> Hurrah!

[21:03] <he> yeah

[21:03] <dalet> she unweaved it because she promised

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[21:03] <bet> bye

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[21:03] <yod> nite nite classmates

[21:03] <delta> thanx

[21:04] <rho> bye

[21:04] <aleph> bye

[21:04] <dalet> that when the weaving was done, she would take a suitor

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[21:04] <mu> i have a question about the last question on the quiz

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[21:04] <omega> his presence that only a wife would know

[21:04] <omega> Penelope

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[21:04] <chi> he has pride in his work and doesn't feel that anyone else could imitate it

[21:04] <chi> even after 20 yrs of not seeing him she knows how he will react that is amazing

[21:04] <chi> a wife has magic powers when it comes to her husband

[21:04] <delta> but wasn't she trying to be all faithful

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[21:04] <theta> dr rob, i have a question about one of the quiz questions ...

[21:04] <DWROB> theta: OK

[21:04] <mu> what circumstances are you looking for

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[21:04] <theta> what exactly do you mean, on the last question: what circumstances?

[21:04] <DWROB> where is he when the story is told?

[21:04] <theta> I just didn't understand the question ...

[21:05] <DWROB> that's what I mean

[21:05] <mu> ok

[21:05] <theta> ok. thank you

[21:05] <dalet> where is Homer or Odysseus

[21:05] <theta> that clears things up

[21:05] <DWROB> O

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[21:05] <DWROB> Homer may not even have existed

[21:05] <GSUser> Penelope

[21:05] <GSUser> alright

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[21:05] <mu> wasn't he still with the nymph

[21:05] <DWROB> Not while telling the story of his travels

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[21:06] <delta> he was at another kingdom

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[21:06] <beta> dr. rob -

[21:06] <DWROB> still here

[21:07] <delta> when exactly are our quizzes due?

[21:07] <DWROB> first submission by five pm day of chat

[21:07] <dalet> can we leave? :-P

[21:07] <beta> earlier I didn't think I greeted anybody - why did you say you would kick me off?

[21:08] <delta> oops I didn't' know that

[21:08] <DWROB> beta: did I specify you by mistake? sorry.

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[21:08] <DWROB> Greetings clutter the channel, so I have to warn people occasionally.

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[21:08] <DWROB> I do kick people once in a while.

[21:09] <beta> yeha, they get on my nerves to

[21:09] <DWROB> Usually if they are obnoxious to other students, though

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[21:09] <DWROB> or to me!

[21:09] <beta> I just wanted to clear that up, I said something before 8 but that was it

[21:09] <DWROB> just kidding

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[21:09] <delta> if I do my quiz to tonight will it take

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[21:09] <beta> thanks

[21:09] <DWROB> if it's locked on you, e-mail me

[21:09] <delta> okay thanks bye

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