Chat 5: Homer, The Odyssey
--- Thu Feb 3 2005
--- Fri Feb 4 2005
--- Sat Feb 5 2005
--- Sun Feb 6 2005
--- Mon Feb 7 2005
Socrates joined #2111web.
#2111web: mode change '+o Socrates' by DWROB!DWROB@192.168.1.10
#2111web: mode change '+tn ' by Socrates!~Socrates@192.168.1.5
DWROB (DWROB@192.168.1.10) left irc: Quit: Client exiting
--- Wed Feb 9 2005
upsilon (~upsilon@12.190.1.209) joined #2111web.
theta (w33z@66.133.143.118) joined #2111web.
theta (w33z@66.133.143.118) left #2111web.
theta (w33z@66.133.143.118) joined #2111web.
theta (w33z@66.133.143.118) left #2111web.
kappa (~kappa@209.221.53.60) joined #2111web.
tau (~tau@69.180.43.180) joined #2111web.
pi (~pi@67.35.20.120) joined #2111web.
DWROB (DWROB@192.168.1.10) joined #2111web.
#2111web: mode change '+o DWROB' by Socrates!~Socrates@192.168.1.5
rho (~rho@12.158.101.142) joined #2111web.
Topic changed on #2111web by DWROB!DWROB@192.168.1.10: Homer's "Odyssey"
theta (w33z@66.133.143.118) joined #2111web.
eta (~eta@64.139.240.145) joined #2111web.
delta (April@64.139.241.122) joined #2111web.
omega (~omega@141.165.127.70) joined #2111web.
sigma (~sigma@vl044-234.vl044.GeorgiaSouthern.edu) joined #2111web.
vav (~vav@209.221.53.171) joined #2111web.
epsilon (~epsilon@vl046-230.vl046.GeorgiaSouthern.edu) joined #2111web.
<omega> hello people
<vav> hi
<vav> enjoy the reading
phi (~phi@vl124-162.vl124.GeorgiaSouthern.edu) joined #2111web.
<sigma> no
Last message repeated 1 time(s).
aleph (~aleph@216.78.121.148) joined #2111web.
<eta> lor no
<vav> long and hard to understand
<delta> no
chi (~chi@vl124-252.vl124.GeorgiaSouthern.edu) joined #2111web.
bet (~bet@67.50.85.106) joined #2111web.
yod (~yod@209.138.65.11) joined #2111web.
gimmel (~gimmel@67-50-90-217.br2.tbr.ga.frontiernet.net) joined #2111web.
<omega> it was nice..
<omega> not enough action for me but I liked it..
<omega> well, most of the old heads of literature are hard to understand but once broken down they are quite nice
<theta> It was pretty cool ... i read it in high school though
omicron (~omicron@67-50-92-57.br2.tbr.ga.frontiernet.net) joined #2111web.
he (~he@host-12-173-142-145.nctv.com) joined #2111web.
<delta> I agree I had to read different broken down versions
iota (~iota@vl047-209.vl047.GeorgiaSouthern.edu) joined #2111web.
mu (~mu@64.139.240.117) joined #2111web.
rho (~rho@12.158.101.142) left irc: Quit
rho (~rho@eagle-dsl-12-158-101-142.enia.net) joined #2111web.
<vav> i found it to be ok but a little hard to understand
nu (~supermanj@12.190.1.23) joined #2111web.
<bet> rho ... .sorry I didn't make it. Its nasty outside
<bet> stayed home
<rho> sure
<bet> I'm a little sick
dalet (~dalet@adsl-217-76-14.asm.bellsouth.net) joined #2111web.
<phi> I've already had to read it twice
<omega> such as homer and sir Walter Scott and Poe
<omega> I saw the movie 4 years ago on TV and read it in high school
beta (~beta@67-50-92-199.br2.tbr.ga.frontiernet.net) joined #2111web.
<theta> i am too. i think a lot of people are
<beta> anybody else have problems logging on tonight?
<bet> yes!!!!
<delta> me too
<sigma> hut!
<bet> I tried like 30 times
<beta> glad I'm not the only one
<DWROB> But the happy news is that you all made it.
<beta> finally
<DWROB> I hope the network will be less sluggish tonight
<omega> take some pedobismo folk
<omega> nop went right in
<omega> nope
<omega> let get it onnnn
<DWROB> I liked several of the forum comments and wanted to start with them.
<phi> my computer had to think about it for a while
gamma (~gamma@host-12-173-143-21.nctv.com) joined #2111web.
<DWROB> Here is a post:
<DWROB>
<DWROB> Odysseus is a hero who strives to do the right thing but allows his ego
<DWROB> to get in the way. Odysseus fights the Trojans and is considered a
<DWROB> good man. All of the men that Telemachus met spoke of Odysseus as a
<DWROB> great man that they were privileged to have fought beside and someone
<DWROB> who they long to see safe. I think what sets him apart from other
<DWROB> epic heroes is that he kind of falls into the role by the help from
<DWROB> Athena. He is a good man, but he does not set out to have the
<DWROB> adventures he is having, he is just trying to go home.
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<beta> that how he differs form Gilgamesh
<DWROB> This touches on two important points: "good" and "home"
<gamma> hello Adam
<DWROB> What does it mean in this epic to be "good"?
<bet> faithful to his mission
<DWROB> gamma -- beta -- stop the greets or I will kick you off!
<dalet> take care of your country and family
<rho> to get home
<vav> help will follow
<nu> to honor his country and the gods
<aleph> He is good because the people that say is good are the people he has helped
<he> to maintain your sense of self even when others want to hurt you
<tau> has the right intentions (going home)
<DWROB> bet: OK, duty
<omega> it depends on whose view point you look through
<DWROB> omega: not really
<gamma> his fulfilling his obligation
<omicron> go after your goals and what you think is right
<delta> defending himself and family
<DWROB> But what is "good" -- is this a Judaeo-Christian morality?
<DWROB> delta: YES
<dalet> not at all
<rho> what was good in the eye of the Greek
nu (~supermanj@12.190.1.23) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
<kappa> faithful and sacrificing to the gods
<pi> no its a polytheistic Greek one
<aleph> not at all, he sleeps with different gods when he is married
<vav> the way to heaven
<eta> if people see you as good ... you must be good right? in the story that is..
<bet> he believes in gods not god
<dalet> obeying the gods
<DWROB> eta: perhaps, but I want an actual inventory of his alleged goodness
<DWROB> dalet: piety -- OK
<tau> but he is good in the polytheistic view
<iota> obey orders
<iota> good in the eyes of the other gods
<rho> he is good in for some gods but not all gods
<DWROB> But what do the gods like (or dislike) about him?
<kappa> He went back in after his men after they drank and were captured
<epsilon> to do anything it takes to get home
<epsilon> yes
<pi> everyone liked him except Poseidon
<phi> dedicated to what he believes
<dalet> his arrogance
<delta> his determination to proceed
<kappa> He wants to go home
<bet> dislike pride
<omicron> his persistence
<DWROB> kappa: brave and loyal, yes
<aleph> They like that he is strong
<pi> he is a man who is faithful to his country his family and the gods
<theta> they weren't too happy with what he did to Polyphemus ...
<gamma> no each culture has it's own definition of good
<DWROB> gamma: yes
<DWROB> that's my point
chi (~chi@vl124-252.vl124.GeorgiaSouthern.edu) left irc: Ping timeout
<kappa> he is very determined to make his way home
<he> shows integrity and respect
<rho> loyalty to only certain gods
<beta> shows determination
<DWROB> rho: inevitable in a polytheistic world
<dalet> no definite points of goodness
<yod> he questioned the messenger but did follow him though
psi (~psi@64.139.232.234) joined #2111web.
<omega> his position in the Trojan war
<theta> well, he fought in the Trojan war
<pi> the gods admired his courage, strength, brains, and intentions
<theta> i agree with book
<DWROB> The Greek notion of "the good" usually has to do with skill, competence, excellence at the tasks handed to you.,
<DWROB> It is not an abstract thing.
<pi> exactly
<rho> that comes later
<bet> He pulled through in every obstacle
<gamma> how you handle the cards you are dealt
<pi> i wasn't just a bad ass like Achilles he was very smart on top of being a great warrior
<beta> well he did complete his task of defeating Troy
<DWROB> What makes Odysseus heroically "good" is that he is GOOD at so many things, great in fact
<eta> was he actually a GREAT person? he got with women when he had a wife.. he did things for himself with much disregard for his crew..
<dalet> but he always had help
<DWROB> pi: very true
<rho> his wit
<delta> I agree bc with his skill in defending he was able to come through
<kappa> he is very skillful and competent in everything they put in his way
<sigma> his spirit
<sigma> not at all what 'good' means today
<DWROB> eta: yes, he is also flawed
<omicron> skillful instead of good
<dalet> he slept around but did not want his wife to sleep around
<eta> he saved his people from the cave
<phi> they like his determination
<DWROB> But in typical Greek fashion, the flaws are tangled up with the virtues
<yod> its a guy thing
chi (~chi@vl124-252.vl124.GeorgiaSouthern.edu) joined #2111web.
nu (~supermanj@12.190.1.23) joined #2111web.
<pi> the flaws are so expected that they're not really flaws
<aleph> like when he escapes the cave and then gets cursed because of his ego?
<tau> so being smart and strong can be your flaw and your virtue
<vav> did he sleep with them to get home?
<rho> he is human
<beta> he got with some of those women b/c he had too, like Kalypso
<DWROB> pi: to a degree -- but he definitely has the vice of arrogance (hubris)
<kappa> Flaws are everywhere its how you deal with them
<rho> we expect flaws
<psi> he had no choice
<DWROB> beta : yes, he was bewitched, poor guy
<bet> I like it, it makes him seem more human
<dalet> it's called chauvinism, yod
<delta> flaws are how you perfect the imperfections
<chi> Did anyone else lose connection?
<epsilon> to fulfill the duty
<nu> yeah
<vav> yes
<psi> yes
<DWROB> OK, what about the importance of HOME?
<DWROB> Stay on topic
<psi> it is what drives him
<delta> it is what keeps him going
<psi> it is what keeps him going
<beta> that was his ultimate destination
<he> he faced his challenges on the way home
<bet> he is very faithful
<aleph> the whole story is based on his journey home
<nu> home is where he truly longs to be
<tau> his wife ... what keeps him on his journey
<kappa> Odysseus always was working its way home
<omicron> home is where the family is
<rho> goes home to reclaim his life
<eta> he has a wife and son waiting for him
<vav> he longs to be there
<DWROB> Why is home so important?
<kappa> his way home
<gamma> his entire journey is taking place because he is going home
<eta> and a large estate
<he> his focus on home is what kept him trucking along
<pi> its a goal that should normally be easily obtainable, and the longer he is away from it the harder it seems it will be for him to get back
<nu> it keeps him going
<mu> that's where he wants to be
<chi> he shows his arrogance with Polyphemus, when he tells him his real name
<nu> it gives him purpose
<aleph> because he has a son he hasn't seen
<bet> he stays focused on his goal of returning to his family
<omicron> it motivates him
<kappa> He hasn't seen his son since he was an infant
<tau> it is where he strives to be
<vav> Penelope
<dalet> is it symbolism
<mu> being able to finally see his wife and son
<beta> go back to his family and kingdom
<bet> he loves his family
<omega> he was not good to poke out the cyclopes eye ... Poseidon did not think he was good
<omega> yess
<omega> he said his name dummy
<omega> his wife and son drive him
<delta> the entire gist of the story is based on his adventures going home
<he> that is where he will reach his goal
<he> his family
<DWROB> How is O's home different from your home?
<gamma> nothing will keep him from getting to his destination
<kappa> His wife is by herself
<nu> he was king
<bet> he is the king
<aleph> he is the king
<tau> right..he was king
<omicron> he runs his home
<mu> i don't run my house
<rho> lord of the people
<yod> i'm single
<DWROB> I am thinking more in terms of the the two social orders, his and yours
<dalet> the man runs the house in O's home
<bet> he has duty to family and country
<pi> hes the ruler of a fabulous estate that many men lust for
<kappa> he was a king
<mu> and i don't have to kill people to inhabit my home
<delta> he has very big shoes to fill at home
<chi> He is so loved at home and has such love for his home, he did not want to leave in the first place and he has a sone he never really got a chance to have a relationship with
<gamma> he is going back to take care of the problems as a ruler
<bet> he is really rich
<he> the man is the head of the house hold
<nu> he was a nobleman
<DWROB> What is the political order in Greece at the time of this epic, apparently?
<rho> look upon as an leader
<bet> he lives well at home
<aleph> city states
<eta> he had a large estate
<epsilon> yes
<epsilon> its what helps him get through the hard trials
<epsilon> he is leader of his home
<pi> peace
<DWROB> How i the society organized?
<yod> men rule..
<pi> the polis
<dalet> it was important for the man to be respected in his house
<beta> he is ruler
<gamma> hierarchical
<tau> who ever has the most livestock and stuff rules the land
<delta> kings lords peasants
<nu> monarchy
<yod> women with the home and kids
<bet> center of civilization
<kappa> different groups lead by different people
<vav> based on one man
<rho> feudal system
<he> the MAN was the head
<iota> process of city states being formed
<iota> conflict was present
<DWROB> Yes -- and everything is broken into tiny states, there is no "Greek" nation
<bet> elite rule
<phi> his woman is there
<phi> he has more responsibility
<mu> ruler of the kingdom is passed down
<sigma> completion
<sigma> city states
<sigma> women have no say
<bet> like kings of counties
<DWROB> only little kingdoms, sort of on he scale of the Kingdom of Brooklet.
<delta> hah
<DWROB> These are little places, basically extended clans or families
<he> each man is the head of his kingdom
<chi> If my father dies there wouldn't be a hole hoard of suitors waiting to marry my mom
<chi> The society is all about power
<DWROB> chi: depends on your father's place in society!
<phi> haha
<rho> true
<omega> when the husband leaves no other men show up try to talk to the wife
<kappa> wasn't Italy arranged sort of that way
<he> so the man took the dead husbands title?
<vav> Why was everyone wanting Penelope
<DWROB> The basic unit of governance is the HOUSEHOLD, the "oikos" from which our word "economy" comes
<DWROB> The home
<pi> she represented the ultimate prize of the leader of their city state
<psi> home is everything
<DWROB> If you are home, you protect your retainers, or you are protected.
<psi> would they then become the leader?
<vav> thanks
<beta> home is where the heart is
<rho> home is good
<kappa> home is everything to everyone
he (~he@host-12-173-142-145.nctv.com) left irc: Quit
<aleph> so everyone would come to Odysseus home to be protected?
<pi> yeah pretty much
he (~he@host-12-173-142-145.nctv.com) joined #2111web.
<tau> he wanted to protect his assets
<DWROB> If you travel, you travel in a world without structure or security
<mu> so how would one become ruler
<kappa> home provides a sense of security
<omicron> home has lots of deep meanings behind it
<bet> he is the protector and he has the protective role
<beta> by conquering others
<gamma> his household was the most uplifted
<DWROB> mu: inheritance, force of arms, the usual
<he> Proclaims himself ruler and defeat whoever challenges him
kaf (drjywnrl@67.50.85.13) joined #2111web.
<mu> ok
xi (~xi@141.165.134.29) joined #2111web.
xi (~xi@141.165.134.29) left irc: Quit
<rho> marriage
<DWROB> sorry , called away ...
<DWROB> OK
<bet> he is nothing but a captain when he is away from homer
<DWROB> This is the whole social order, the home.
<psi> exactly
<DWROB> O loses his honor when he can't protect it adequately
<chi> Why does it matter if she marries one of the suitors, shouldn't Telemachus have the power left by his dad
<kappa> the home means a lot to everyone
<rho> the story makes him great
<he> yes
<DWROB> That's why it is so important to return
<beta> man in charge, woman subservient
<DWROB> chi: no
<gamma> he is going home to defend his name and his rule
<psi> because of his honor from the Trojan war
<bet> everyone's missing him
<omega> but was the home not sacred
<omega> well why was O disrespected by all those suitors?
<aleph> why wouldn't the son inherit everything?
<psi> would be tainted by the loss of his home
<DWROB> omega: the suitors are very very stupid
<kappa> His honor is like honor to the Chinese?
<vav> power and money
<DWROB> The flip side of this notion of the home is the notion of HOSPITALITY
<bet> pen gives too much
<dalet> what is the Greek word for hospitality
<kappa> The suitors appear not to competent in what they are trying to do
<DWROB> Travelers depend on the hospitality of others, and it is a sacred virtue to be hospitable, protected by Zeus
<nu> home was the one place in the world he was safe
<delta> hospitality is mentioned a lot
<mu> the suitors made themselves at home during O's absence
<tau> the suitors were taking advantage of her hospitality
<DWROB> To be a bad guest, or a bad host, is to sin against Zeus
<mu> except in the Cyclops case
<beta> they are just using the hospitality to extremes though
<pi> the way pretty much everyone is invited in the house no matter what
epsilon (~epsilon@vl046-230.vl046.GeorgiaSouthern.edu) left irc: Ping timeout
<kappa> Phaeacian king was very hospitable toward Odysseus
<aleph> everyone takes care of visitors because when they are traveling they want to be taken care of
<DWROB> Cyclops == extremely bad host
<DWROB> And who are the bad guests?
<delta> extremely
<bet> suitors
<beta> the suitors
<eta> the suitors
<yod> his men
<mu> suitors
<nu> the suitors
<DWROB> Bad manners to eat your guests
<gamma> and he lost his eye and the hands of O
<psi> of course they were bad
<rho> suitor
<kappa> Those who ate Helios' cattle
<psi> they ate them
<he> suitors that are
<omicron> suitors
<mu> i agree
<delta> the suitors
<psi> i would consider that a bad host if they ate me
<vav> suitors
<DWROB> kappa: yes, and the men are killed for that
<tau> well, cyclops got what he deserved
<omega> ohh
<omega> yes they are in deed
<omega> those men
xi (~xi@vl134-029.vl134.GeorgiaSouthern.edu) joined #2111web.
<bet> or to eat your host out of house and home
<chi> to regain honor
<chi> the suitors are being disrespectful but Telemachus still has to be hospitable because it is his duty
<he> bad manners was disrespectful to the gods?
<gamma> suitors trying to court with Penelope
<rho> food
<eta> they took advantage of everything.. freeloaders
<aleph> they feel they have a right to be there
<DWROB> This explains why O has to kill all of the suitors, not just the ringleaders. Also their women.
<beta> exactly
<kappa> Suitors were also killed for their actions
<iota> can we ask questions about the quiz and discuss them?
<phi> O's men
<dalet> homer and his shipmates are bad guests at times
<DWROB> All have violated a sacred principle in the culture.
<gamma> so it was his duty
<DWROB> ye
<DWROB> ss
<DWROB> yes
<bet> they were punished in the end
<nu> that's tight
<he> So that disrespect is to the gods?
<he> or to him
<pi> both
<DWROB> yes
<mu> O had the gods on his side
<beta> they got what they deserved
<kappa> He had a duty to get his honor back by killing the suitors
<DWROB> here is another post ... .
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 3 time(s).
<DWROB> Odysseus proves that he is an epic hero by overcoming everything that
<DWROB> is thrown at him. He refuses to let anything get him down and succeeds
<DWROB> in all challenges he faces. He does all he can to be with his wife
<DWROB> again.
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 3 time(s).
<DWROB> Remember how O is described int he first line?
<DWROB> "a man never at a loss"
<beta> skilled
<nu> he is clever
<rho> smart
<bet> optimist
<DWROB> That's a translation of "polytropos" which means "many twists and turns"
<chi> that is why when Telm. travels they are very polite and feed him without even asking his name
<sigma> can we ask you some questions pertaining to the quiz
<DWROB> sigma: no
<he> he is crafty
<delta> also as a man skilled in all ways of contending
epsilon (~epsilon@vl046-230.vl046.GeorgiaSouthern.edu) joined #2111web.
<kappa> He is never at a loss because he works his way out of every situation
<DWROB> He is one of the smartest characters in all literature, and his intelligence is of a tactical, practical kind
<DWROB> He can get out of any situation
<nu> he's the original James Bond
<delta> he is much more think before you act unlike Gilgamesh
<rho> he has the wiliness to survive
<beta> the roman version says he is popular
<gamma> his intelligence was his most important attribute
<DWROB> and he knows that, and is proud of it ... so this leads to hubris, pride, which is a danger
<beta> popular
<bet> its his flaw
<pi> was the purpose of him hearing the sirens just like an educational one? he knew it would suck but he still wanted to know what it was like?
<DWROB> nu: heh
<aleph> didn't he need the help of Athena to get out of his last situation to go home?
<DWROB> pi: great question -- I'll get to it
<DWROB> aleph: About Athena -- who is Athena?
<kappa> To much pride can put him in danger with the gods, because it may cross the line of arrogance
<beta> that's a good analogy - James bond
<omicron> a god
<vav> Zeus daughter?
<eta> Zeus' daughter
<DWROB> god of what?
<aleph> the goddess who really likes Odysseus
<beta> his patron goddess
<bet> goddess of protection
<dalet> Athena is the goddess who helps O and T along the way
<DWROB> goddess of what?
<theta> war
<DWROB> war and ... ?
<psi> war
<eta> god of ... reasonable warfare ... i read that somewhere
<psi> love
<vav> war'
<DWROB> not love
<delta> she put a protective mist upon him
<bet> protection
<DWROB> no
<tau> peace?
<nu> sport
<DWROB> no!
<dalet> is she the goddess of wisdom
<rho> it's she Zeus wife
<upsilon> love
<DWROB> WISDOM
<DWROB> thanks
<phi> she helps him out whenever he needs it
<psi> that was a tough one
<gamma> goddess of wisdom and battle
<DWROB> war and wisdom -- that pretty much sums up O as well
<chi> he is on good terms with the gods, except Poseidon
<chi> because sometimes his pride makes him go overboard
<chi> Athena is the goddess of the hunt
<chi> the hunt or the wilderness
<nu> so there were 2 gods of war
<DWROB> chi: no!
<mu> a wise fighter
<beta> wisdom and military victory
<vav> yep
<DWROB> that's Artemis
<DWROB> beta: right
<iota> but how did Athena help Odysseus?
<sigma> Some of the questions on the quiz are too broad and I don't understand, on several of them, exactly how I could answer them.
<sigma> war
<epsilon> peace
<psi> buy arrange his release from Kalypso
<dalet> I said wisdom a long time ago
<DWROB> So, if you take Athena as a symbol rather than a person, she symbolizes wisdom and strength.
<theta> she taught his son to help him
<nu> Aires was the god of war
<gamma> the shipwreck
<kappa> Yeah, wisdom makes sense because she helps Odysseus through everything
<aleph> she supported O because he was the ideal of wisdom and battle
<DWROB> Let's take a look at a quote from the epic
<tau> no wonder she helps O
<rho> the same as O
<DWROB> tau: right -- she IS O in a way
<pi> just like all the gods help individuals because they sorta remind them of themselves in some way
<DWROB> Here's Telemachus at the opening --
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 3 time(s).
<DWROB> Long before anyone else, the prince Telemakhos
<DWROB> now caught sight of Athena--for he, too,
<DWROB> was sitting there unhappy among the suitors,
<DWROB> a boy, daydreaming. What if his great father
<DWROB> came from the unknown world and drove these men
<DWROB> like dead leaves through the place, recovering
<DWROB> honor and lordship in his own domains?
<DWROB> Then he who dreamed in the crowd gazed out at Athena.
<DWROB> Straight to the door he came, irked with himself
<DWROB> to think that a visitor had been kept there waiting,
<DWROB> and took her right hand, grasping with his left
<DWROB> her tall bronze-bladed spear. Then he said warmly:
<DWROB> "Greetings, stranger! Welcome to our feast.
<DWROB> There will be time tell your errand later."
<DWROB> He led the way, and Pallas Athena followed
<DWROB> into the lofty hall. The boy reached up
<chi> she sends Hermes to tell Calypso to let him go home
<chi> he also makes Zeus aware of the situation
<DWROB> and thrust her spear high in a polished rack
<DWROB> against a pillar where tough spear on spear
<DWROB> of the old soldier, his father, stood in order.
<DWROB> Then, shaking out a splendid coverlet,
<DWROB> he seated her on a throne with footrest--all
<DWROB> finely carved--and drew his painted armchair
<DWROB> near her, at a distance from the rest.
<DWROB> To be amid the din, the suitors' riot,
<DWROB> would ruin his guest's appetite, he thought,
<DWROB> and he wished privacy to ask for news
<omega> two of them
<DWROB> about his father, gone for years.
<DWROB>
<DWROB>
<DWROB> Read and comment
<DWROB> What does it say about him that he notices Athena at the door and the suitors don't?
<aleph> he recognizes that there is something different about this guest
<pi> now it keeps saying her but i got the impression she was in the form of a man
<bet> did he recognize her?
<DWROB> she is
<DWROB> no
<aleph> he is looking to be a good host
<pi> hes a good host
<DWROB> he sees a man at the door
<kappa> he is smart
<omicron> tel wanted help from Athena but he couldn't get it wit all the suitors around
yod (~yod@209.138.65.11) left irc: Ping timeout
<he> he is respectful and hospitable
<DWROB> pi: right -- it's that simple, and a basic virtue
<vav> can only be seen by him
<bet> how could he tell
<DWROB> What is his state of mind at the start of this passage?
<pi> he saw a new face and inquired on a friendly level
<vav> dreamy
<aleph> he is upset because of the suitors
<dalet> Athena only came for him, she was in disguise as Mentor
<nu> he was distant
<kappa> daydreaming, he worries about his father
<pi> hes not happy
<rho> unhappy
<he> he is irritated
<DWROB> Yes, dreamy, and he is described as a boy
<DWROB> what would it take for him to become a man?
<vav> yes
<aleph> probably go to battle
<kappa> fight the suitors off himself?
<DWROB> OK ...
<rho> troy
<he> to prove himself
<mu> to take action
<nu> to stand up to the suitors
<he> troy is over
<dalet> war or fighting for honor
<pi> kill the suitors and take over for himself
<beta> participation in war
<aleph> to make a name for himself
<gamma> experience the battle for himself
<DWROB> hard to do!
<delta> to prove he can defend
<mu> to look for his father
<phi> he sees through her disguise
<DWROB> How can he prepare for all of that?
<kappa> Hard, but it would make him a man
yod (~yod@209.138.65.11) joined #2111web.
<dalet> take care of the household
<he> go on a journey?
<nu> with Athena's help
<eta> he sees her as a guest?
<vav> Athena helps
<DWROB> they would kill him in a moment -- how can he win?
<kappa> practice
<epsilon> hospitable
<epsilon> not happy
<aleph> with Athena's help
<kappa> wits and wisdom
<delta> with Athena
<beta> Athena puts courage in his heart
<bet> get help
<pi> he needs help
<mu> to get help and find his father
<iota> So Athena wanted to help tele. to find Odysseus?
<vav> with the gods help
<omicron> use his mind
<kappa> help of gods
<omicron> out think them
<bet> gather others
<DWROB> omicron: his mind, BINGO
<vav> Zeus and Athena
<omega> i think he knew it was her and wanted to set them up
<omega> he kind of antsy
<omega> be the protector
<eta> he is wise ...
<gamma> by having his father
<he> to use his cunning
<sigma> he is worried
<sigma> for him to earn it
<sigma> He has to earn his privilege to be a man
<DWROB> he needs both wisdom and strength
<nu> just like his father
<beta> and courage
<rho> out think the suitors
<bet> he needs esteem
<DWROB> So, in other words, what does it mean symbolically when Athena shows up?
<chi> it shows that he honors the code of hospitality and that he is more perceptive
<chi> he is tired of the suitors antics
<chi> he has to find news of his father
<chi> practice with the spears
<kappa> the battle has begun
<omicron> it gives him encouragement
<beta> that she will help like she helps his dad
<vav> mother
<pi> like father like son
<dalet> wisdom and strength
<tau> wisdom
<delta> his motivation to get things rolling
<aleph> he is ready to begin his journey to become a man
<he> the he is going to become a man
<nu> she likes him
<bet> she will help him with war and wisdom
<upsilon> for wisdom and her help
<gamma> she will guide T also
<DWROB> Yes, he is coming into manhood, about to take action
<DWROB> Athena is both a real character and a state of T's mind -- BOTH
<pi> wisdom and strength just showed up at his door
<DWROB> The poem often works like that
<DWROB> pi: exactly
<pi> it says she changes something in his heart
<DWROB> they are attributes in HIM
<gamma> Athena is somewhat of the father figure he is searching for
<bet> she brings them out
<kappa> he never really had a father
<epsilon> Athena will be with him
<DWROB> No, she is the urge to seek and emulate that father figure
<gamma> ok
<delta> to regain what was lost
<omega> she is like the apollo log
<rho> he does win with his mind at the end
<bet> to push and assist tel
<DWROB> omega -- ?
<sigma> so Athena gives these to him?
<sigma> does she bring his attributes out of him?
<delta> yes
<rho> gives him the drive
<chi> he is gaining wisdom since she is wisdom
<chi> everyone seeks knowledge of their parents
<DWROB> sigma: she is a manifestation of those attributes; plot-wise, literally, she is an advisor to him
<phi> she is there because she owes it to him
<DWROB> but she also is a symbol
<kappa> Athena changes Telemachus by giving strength and wisdom and showing him what to do
<eta> Athena makes it all happen for them pretty much
<aleph> she has to be a real figure to. She is able to take other people forms to do work.
<kappa> Athena brings it all together for O and T
<DWROB> Actually, only T can make it happen
<DWROB> by embodying what Athena represents
<rho> she is a symbol that all that humans have come from the gods
<bet> does she symbolize O like being a father to tel
<dalet> that's why her other name is MENTOR
<nu> he's got the gift he has to use it
<kappa> Mentor seemed to play a key role and be a keyword in the story
<gamma> but she is the confidence he needs to believe in himself
<iota> For the 2nd time ... what does Athena actually do to help them?
<DWROB> OK, another quote, Odysseus now. Let's see how this guy operates.
<delta> she only symbolizes what he already possesses
<epsilon> she gives him the wisdom and strength to find O
<DWROB> This is in the land of the Phaeacians, when O appears before the king in his great hall.
<omega> the apollo log is like luck something to aspire to
<omega> it motivates
<kappa> O is a great tactician speaker
<DWROB> King Alkinoos speaking ... .
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 3 time(s).
<DWROB> (303, Alkinoos)
<DWROB> "Friend, I, for one have certain questions for you.
<DWROB> Who are you, and who has given you this clothing?
<DWROB> Did you not say you wandered here by sea?"
<DWROB> The great tactician carefully replied:
<DWROB> "Ah, majesty, what labor it would be
<DWROB> to go through the whole story! All my years
<DWROB> of misadventures, given by those on high!
<DWROB> But this you ask is quickly told:
<DWROB> In mid-ocean lies Ogygia, the island
<DWROB> haunt of Kalypso, Atlas guileful daughter,
<DWROB> a lovely goddess and a dangerous one. No one, no god or man, consorts with her;
<DWROB> but supernatural power brought me there
<DWROB> to be her solitary guest: for Zeus
<sigma> thanks
<DWROB> let fly with his bright bolt and split my ship,
<DWROB> rolling me over the winedark sea ... ."
<DWROB> Then 16 pages later ...
<DWROB> (319)
<DWROB> "I am Laertes son, Odysseus.
<DWROB> Men hold me
<DWROB> formidable for guile in peace and war:
<DWROB> this fame has gone abroad to the sky's rim."
<DWROB>
<DWROB>
<DWROB> Why is the "great tactician" so "careful"?
<he> not to offend him?
<aleph> because he does not wish to upset his host
<yod> so he can return home
<kappa> Doesn't Poseidon like them
<bet> he wants to be humble in front of another leader?
<nu> to not let him know why he has had so much trouble
<DWROB> consider his situation
gamma6 (~gamma@host-12-173-143-21.nctv.com) joined #2111web.
<omicron> he wants to be a good guest
<DWROB> nu: why not?
<aleph> the clothes are from his host's daughter
<nu> because they would turn him away
<DWROB> What is the danger to him if he quickly reveals his identity?
<he> because it is no problem of O
<nu> for fear that he would bring trouble to them
<kappa> He doesn't want to give away to mush information until he knows how they will react to what he says
<aleph> they might not trust him
<psi> it would cause trouble
<DWROB> kappa: good
<rho> they would kill him
<dalet> they will reap the wrath of the gods
<DWROB> why kill him?
GSUser (~GSUser@vl133-042.vl133.GeorgiaSouthern.edu) joined #2111web.
<psi> because of his name
<bet> the host would not want to keep this man who brings trouble
<nu> so they do bot anger the gods
<rho> jealousy
<DWROB> bet: right
<chi> in the same way that O has done
<chi> because if he offends the gods he will never get home
<chi> and he might annoy his hosts to say such things in their house
<he> ah
<phi> doesn't want to upset him
<phi> might get punished somehow
<DWROB> He is the greatest, fiercest, most crafty and dangerous man in the world.
<psi> they fear him
<aleph> he is cunning
<DWROB> How would you feel if he showed up at your door?
<dalet> too much drama
<psi> they would kill what they fear
<he> certain death
<nu> intimidated
<delta> scared
<vav> frightful
<bet> a little intimidated
<aleph> I would be very careful to know what he wants
<DWROB> right
<mu> i would fear him
<tau> too much trouble
<pi> he has to seduce them to his side before he can reveal himself
<rho> run
<theta> fearful
<kappa> O brings a lot of "baggage" because of his travels and troubles
<mu> might not let him in
<gamma6> intimidated
<sigma> doesn't went to let on about everything
<sigma> besides his ship splitting, what other trouble did O get into after Cyclops?
<vav> I would also want him gone
<DWROB> so he waits 16 pages to tell the whole truth, and in the mean time entertains them with his tales
<yod> in those times are current times?
<epsilon> he trying to be hospitable
<epsilon> doesn't want to cause trouble
<bet> smart man
<DWROB> yod -- ?
<aleph> he shows that he means well and is just trying to get home
<he> sorta feeling out the crowd
<mu> want to be a good guest as well as not alarm them
<iota> he will be attacked
<delta> hospitality comes to play and story telling is a way of life
<gamma6> when his crew became jealous and believed he was given gold and they opened the bag and let the wind out
<yod> would i let him in my house today or back in the days of the story?
<kappa> He even competes against them in their events
<he> he had to pick the right time to tell them he couldn't just open up with that at the door
<DWROB> yod: Oh -- I meant now!
<omega> I think he is holden back, but wants to say more but in his surroundings he bites his tongue more
<chi> because he has been with their daughter unsupervised
<chi> frightened that aiding him might annoy the gods
gamma (~gamma@host-12-173-143-21.nctv.com) left irc: Ping timeout
<yod> probably have my guard up
<DWROB> Another quote now -- talking to the Cyclops ... .
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 4 time(s).
<DWROB> (325-326, in the Cyclops' cave)
<DWROB> "We are form Troy, Akaians, blown off course
<DWROB> by shifting gales on the Great South Sea;
<DWROB> homeward bound, but taking routes and ways
<DWROB> uncommon; so the will of Zeus would have it.
<DWROB> ... .
<DWROB> We would entreat you, Great Sir, have a care
<DWROB> for the gods' courtesy; Zeus will avenge the unoffending guest."
<DWROB> He answered this
<DWROB> from his brute chest, unmoved:
<DWROB> "You are a ninny,
<DWROB> or else you come from the other end of nowhere,
<DWROB> telling me, mind the gods! We Kyklopes
<DWROB> care not a whistle for your thundering Zeus
<DWROB> or all the gods in bliss; we have more force by far ... ."
<DWROB> Neither reply nor pity came from him,
<DWROB> but in one stride he clutched at my companions
<DWROB> and caught two in his hands like squirming puppies
<DWROB> to beat their brains out, spattering the floor.
<DWROB> Then he dismembered them and made his meal,
<DWROB> gaping and crunching like a mountain lion --
<DWROB> everything: innards, flesh, and marrow bones.
<DWROB> We cried aloud, lifting our hands to Zeus,
<DWROB> powerless, looking on at this, appalled."
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<DWROB> bad, bad host
GSUser (~GSUser@vl133-042.vl133.GeorgiaSouthern.edu) left irc: Quit
<psi> he is a very bad host
<aleph> he doesn't care what Zeus does
<DWROB> Notice again that he doesn't reveal his identity
<he> scary
<kappa> O tries to be a good guest but Kyklopes just doesn't like them or their gods
<nu> they pay
<tau> cyclops got what he deserved for being a bad host
<psi> Zeus has no say to them
<dalet> whats the Greek word for HOST?
<aleph> that helps him escape later
<bet> not till after he leaves
<eta> yes bad host ... he starts out nice, but then eats them up
<DWROB> what does O give as his name when Polyphemus asks?
<psi> but if they say the gods don't bother them, why did he send Poseidon after them
<chi> the hole story is told by story telling
<chi> O even warns him to be a good host
<aleph> nobody
<gamma6> nobody
<delta> in his eyes he is all powerful who cares about Zeus
<bet> nobody
<mu> Nobody
<dalet> nobody
<kappa> Nobody
<DWROB> Did you read the footnote to get the pun?
<gamma6> he knew the cyclops was an idiot
<iota> can you please answer sigma question b/c i would like to know also
<rho> Nobody
<vav> maybe so the king can guess who he is
<mu> very smart thinking
<delta> he doesn't give it
<kappa> yes
<bet> yep funny
<dalet> nope. made sense at the end
<psi> because Poseidon is his mother right
<he> he knew he could outsmart cyclops
<kaf> He did that as a tactic to get out of the cave
<tau> yes ... so cyclops would say nobody came to dinner
<aleph> he was using his wisdom
<eta> Poseidon is his father
<DWROB> sigma: repeat question
<kappa> Wit and wisdom can easily beat brute strength
<phi> nobody
<DWROB> "outis" or nobody sounds like Odysseus ...
<DWROB> So he is *almost* telling the truth
<bet> close
<rho> yes
<beta> oh, ok
<DWROB> and of course this leads to the comical scene where blind P. screams: "help -- nobody is blinding me!"
<epsilon> cyclopes deserved what he got for not being a good host
<epsilon> He tells him noone
<chi> he is very thrifty
<chi> Nobody
<chi> I missed it
<chi> It makes a better story that way
<eta> oh wow
<sigma> Besides O's ship being destroyed, what other trouble did he get into after his encounter with Cyclops?
<kappa> That was a humorous scene
<bet> and nobody helps him
<psi> he told them who he was
<omega> scary host that no one would know of this cause you would eaten before you could tell
<omega> his skill of strategy
<omega> somewhat
<beta> so O is clever after all
<mu> he had it all planned out
<he> he had to escape
<mu> its like he knew what the Cyclops was going to say
<chi> that is my fav
<DWROB> sigma: This is the start of the really bad stuff, and when O reveals his REAL name out of boasting pride, P curses him in Poseidon name -- BAD NEWS
<bet> hes crafty
<aleph> he is quick to figure out how to get our of situations
<he> ok because he knew
<kappa> Very bad news
<psi> not good at all
<beta> not so clever after all ...
<aleph> his ego caused his downfall from there
<dalet> too smart for his own good
<rho> think before reacting
<DWROB> Yes
<gamma6> you don't want the gods after you
<kappa> He is skillful and smart but still very human in the sense of making mistakes
<bet> not smarts just pride
<psi> i know my ego would do the same
<DWROB> But he is still able to figure out an escape
<delta> he is clever to get out of the situation however boasts when he is out trouble!!
<vav> clever
<phi> twist on the truth
<DWROB> Now let's go back to the question about the Sirens
<rho> that why he is an epic hero
<DWROB> Why does O want to hear the Sirens?
<eta> he is curious
<theta> because everyone does
<DWROB> rho: in part, yes
<dalet> curiosity
<psi> to see whats its like
<aleph> to be able to boast later on that he escaped them
<kappa> To know when they are done and curiosity
<bet> curious
<psi> a pride thing that he could make it
<theta> that's the whole point of the Sirens
<rho> to hear what all the fuss is about
<DWROB> theta: yes, but he wants to live
<omicron> it gives him knowledge
<beta> foolish curiosity
<mu> because it lures everyone to them
<he> he is wondering about them
<psi> that is why he ties him self up
<psi> so he lives through it
<omega> funny
<omega> the best
<omega> he was too cocky for his own good
<delta> he wants to hear and know
<dalet> their sound is ecstatic
<DWROB> beta: it's not foolish if he can survive through his craft
<psi> and tells his crew to now let him go
<gamma6> curiosity and pride he can escape them
<dalet> ecstasy
<beta> to prove he can survive the temptation
<DWROB> delta: KNOW what???
<theta> yes, but temptation often tries to overcome common sense with humans
<chi> he gets caught in the moment and screws it up in the end
<pi> its wisdom, its an experience that most don't get to have and even fewer live through
<tau> yeah ... but he almost went mad
<beta> another prideful thing to do
<sigma> it is very smart how he and his men escape the cave!
<DWROB> What does he hope to know or learn -- that's the right question!
<psi> to maybe tell people about the experience
<aleph> if he will fall prey to them
<DWROB> Let's look what the Sirens say to him ... ..
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<dalet> why it drives men crazy
<DWROB>
<bet> what he can and cant withstand
<vav> how they draw in men to kill
<DWROB>
<kappa> The way home
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<omicron> how to resist the irresistible
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 7 time(s).
<theta> i'm not seeing anything ...
<DWROB> This way, oh turn your bows,
<DWROB> Akhaia's glory,
<chi> because he is O and his arrogance gets the best of him, plus he will be the only one to have survived
<chi> it also makes a great story for later
<chi> he wants to know what is so luring
<DWROB> As all the world allows --
<psi> to prove it is not irresistible
<DWROB> Moor and be merry.
<DWROB> Sweet coupled airs we sing.
<DWROB> No lonely seafarer
<DWROB> Holds clear of entering
<DWROB> Our green mirror.
<DWROB> Pleased by each purling note
<DWROB> Like honey twining
<DWROB> From her throat and my throat,
<DWROB> Who lies a-pining?
<DWROB> Sea rovers here take joy
<DWROB> Voyaging onward,
<DWROB> As from our song of Troy
<epsilon> curiosity
<epsilon> to see why people cant make it past
<epsilon> that's why he is tied up
<DWROB> Greybeard and rower-boy
<DWROB> Goeth more learn-ed.
<iota> b/c one person must hear them
<iota> So I don't understand where o had been the whole time ... .
<iota> all 10 years he was missing
<DWROB> All feats in that great field
<DWROB> In the long warfare,
<DWROB> Dark days the bright gods willed,
<DWROB> Wounds you bore there,
<DWROB> Argos' old soldiery
<DWROB> On Troy beach teeming,
<xi> he wants to see if their voices are like
<DWROB> Charmed out of time we see.
<DWROB> No life on earth can be
<DWROB> Hid from our dreaming.
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 3 time(s).
<DWROB> The usual line from the Sirens is something like "Hey, Sailor ... ."
<DWROB> But what do they sing to O?
<DWROB> He is eight years a prisoner on Calypso's island
<pi> can people refrain from typing anything when he's quoting stuff
<DWROB> What do the Siren's say?
<DWROB> pi: thanks
<aleph> they have been waiting for him
<dalet> is it sexual
<DWROB> yes ...
<DWROB> no!
<DWROB> not for O
<kappa> Maybe he hopes to learn how his family is doing, maybe they knew and could tell him
<eta> I don't know..
<bet> the are appealing to his pride and telling him how good he did in troy
<DWROB> for regular sailors, of course, but not O
<he> they were waiting on him to come they were expecting him
<DWROB> bet: Exactly.
<DWROB> they know their intended victim well
<DWROB> And he would have jumped!
<bet> pride
<mu> so they mocked him to come
<delta> they know they can win him by speaking good things about him to him
<vav> that is why he is tied
<rho> yes
<DWROB> So What benefit does O get from hearing this, from having this experience?
<gamma6> that is why the temptation is so great b/c it boosted his pride
<kappa> They are trying to build him up make him want to go to them which he wants to but is tied up
<delta> more ego boast
GSUser (~GSUser@vl133-042.vl133.GeorgiaSouthern.edu) joined #2111web.
<tau> ego
<aleph> to know he cannot be stronger than everything
<rho> confidence boost
<DWROB> no ...
<nu> he realizes pride is his weakness
<DWROB> nu: yes!
<bet> he is now aware of his flaw
<DWROB> he gains the most important kind of knowledge -- SELF KNOWLEDGE
<beta> climactic?
<gamma6> it symbolizes the changing of his persona
<kappa> He is flawed and knows where
<he> he realizes that he is all pride and he is somewhat weak
<omega> nearly drove him mad not to go to them
<DWROB> The inscription over the temple of the oracle at Delphi said "Know thyself"
<rho> use this to his benefit
<he> he realizes a lot from the sirens
<chi> that he is curious
<DWROB> Hard to do, but this epic hero pulls it off
phi (~phi@vl124-162.vl124.GeorgiaSouthern.edu) left irc: Ping timeout
<gamma6> similar to Gilgamesh's changing
<beta> he only knew to tie himself up b/c of Athena though
<epsilon> they know he a dreamed of them and they have been waiting
<epsilon> he is prideful they know that's what he wants to hear
<epsilon> his flaw is pride
<DWROB> He is an intellectual as well as military hero, remember
<sigma> the system is messing up tonight, so people can't help
<he> know life and respect it
<eta> pride always seems to be the greatest flaw
<bet> all around awesome guy
<DWROB> Let's take a look at the bow scene ... .
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<DWROB> And Odysseus took his time,
<DWROB> turning the bow, tapping it, every inch,
<DWROB> for borings that termites might have made
<DWROB> while the master of the weapon was abroad.
<DWROB> The suitors were watching him, and some
<DWROB> jested among themselves:
<DWROB> "A bow lover!"
<DWROB> "Dealer in old bows!"
<DWROB> "Maybe he has one like it at home!"
<DWROB> "Or has an itch to make one for himself!"
<DWROB> "See how he handles it, the sly old buzzard!"
<DWROB> And one disdainful suitor added this:
<DWROB> "May his fortune grow an inch for every inch he bends it!"
<DWROB> But the man skilled in all ways of contending,
<DWROB> satisfied by the great bow's look and heft,
<DWROB> like a musician, like a harper, when
<DWROB> with quiet hand upon his instrument
<DWROB> he draws between his thumb and forefinger
<DWROB> a sweet new string upon a peg: so effortlessly
<DWROB> Odysseus in one motion strung the bow.
<DWROB> Then slid his right hand down the cord and plucked it,
<DWROB> so the taut gut vibrating hummed and sang
<DWROB> a swallow's note.
<DWROB> In the hushed hall it smote the suitors
<DWROB> and all their faces changed.
<DWROB>
<DWROB>
<DWROB> Read ... and consider: what is O's attitude or behavior here?
<kappa> Pride and arrogance seem to be a great flaw for heroes
<DWROB> gamma6: good connection of O's and g's enlightenment
<delta> again boastful
<gamma6> he was the only one that could string the bow and he knew it
<chi> he was able to see how his pride could be a downfall
<DWROB> Boastful?
<dalet> very confident
<omicron> he's going real slow
<bet> its all for show
<he> Is he trying to intimidate the suitors?
<DWROB> no, not for show ... .
<kappa> O seems to be biding his time and seeing how they react
<nu> he is letting them know they are screwed
<DWROB> no, he doesn't have to intimidate
<vav> this is mine and you cant have it
<DWROB> intimidate
<aleph> he is just showing what he is and that they had better beware
<omega> it is like the good guy must prevail in the end type of story
<DWROB> aleph: right
<delta> Confident and he knew what he was doing
<rho> most action movies are written after this
<bet> its hard to pull a bow
<omicron> he's making them think
<beta> like a threat?
<gamma6> he realizes the tremendous abilities he has been given
<eta> he was a master with he bow right?
<he> would that not be intimidation
<DWROB> this is the climactic discovery scene -- the truth comes out -- that it is O and he is incomparably superior to these jerks
<pi> what a bad ass
<aleph> he has come back to win his house
<DWROB> What's the point of comparing him to a musician?
<dalet> that's why Penelope had him do the bow trick
<pi> hes an artist
<bet> he does it with ease
<he> he is graceful
<delta> to show his skillfulness
<DWROB> An artist ! yes
<beta> definitely James Bond-ish
<vav> did not understand that one
<aleph> he and the bow were like one like a musician
<gamma6> such a simple act shows so much ability
<kappa> Showing his skill and competence in his work of mastery
<pi> hes so good at it its beautiful to watch
<DWROB> pi: perfectly put
<dalet> like a musician is a master of music, O was a master at archery
<DWROB> He is completely absorbed in his preparation to assume command -- a lovely sight
<sigma> for most men too
<sigma> I also want to know the answer to what iota asked
<rho> perfection
<mu> he makes something so hard seem so easy
<epsilon> prideful, intimidation
<epsilon> isn't that the same as intimidation
<mu> just like musicians
<DWROB> iota: restate question
<DWROB> epsilon: right
<kappa> Its like watching an artist in their most outstanding achievement
<chi> he is taking his time and showing the men why it is his house, because he is smarter then they are and will not respond to their taunts
<chi> to show that he is artful at the bow
<DWROB> One more scene to quote -- Penelope
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 3 time(s).
<DWROB> said:
<DWROB> "Strange man,
<DWROB> if man you are . . . This is no pride on my part
<DWROB> nor scorn for you -- not even wonder, merely,
<DWROB> I know so well how you -- how he -- appeared
<DWROB> boarding the ship for Troy. But all the same . . .
<DWROB> Make up the bed for him, Eurykleia.
<DWROB> Place it outside the bedchamber my lord
<chi> he doesn't need to intimidate he knows he is superior, and doesn't have to try to prove it
<DWROB> built with his own hands. Pile the big bed
<DWROB> with fleeces, rugs, and sheets of purest linen."
<DWROB> With this she tried him to the breaking point,
<DWROB> and he turned on her in a flash raging:
<DWROB> "Woman, by heaven you've stung me now!
<DWROB> Who dared to move my bed?
<DWROB> No builder had the skill for that -- unless
<DWROB> a god came down to turn the trick. No mortal
<DWROB> in his best days could budge it with a crowbar.
<DWROB> There is our pact and pledge, our secret sign,
<DWROB> built into that bed -- my handiwork
<DWROB> and no one else's!
<DWROB> An old trunk of olive
<DWROB> grew like a pillar on the building plot,
<DWROB> and I laid our bedroom round that tree . . . .
<DWROB> Then I lopped off the silvery leaves and branches,
<DWROB> hewed and shaped that stump from the roots up
<DWROB> into a bedpost . . . .
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<DWROB> Penelope wants assurances it is really O ... it's been 20 years, after all.
<omega> and they resent the whole thing, but it does not matter they die anyway
<DWROB> What proofs of his identity is she looking for?
<kappa> She has to test him
<iota> ok i am lost, i would like to know where o was during his absence
<aleph> that he knows about the bedpost
<omicron> she thinks it is too good to believe
<nu> only he know the bed can't be moved
<bet> he knows the bed is made out of a tree
<he> she knew he would know about the bed
<rho> secret sign
<delta> she is looking for him to put her back in line
<eta> he knows exactly how it was made ...
<tau> he made the bed
<kappa> The fact the bed can't be moved because one of the bedposts is a tree still in the ground
<gamma6> the inability to move the bed
<DWROB> iota: one year traveling, one year with Circe, eight years with Calypso
<upsilon> only he knows about the bed because he made it
<dalet> something so intimate only her husband would know
<rho> knowledge of the bed
<DWROB> : good -- the marital secret of the bed -- a special bed, rooted in the ground
<mu> he built the room around the tree so it is rooted down
<he> yes
<DWROB> A great symbol of their solid marriage that can survive twenty years of absence.
<beta> was she completely faithful to him for all 20 yrs?
<dalet> a symbol of their marriage and love for each other
<mu> he thought she got rid of it and got mad
<DWROB> presumably
<mu> that's how she knew
<chi> that he knows the truth about their bed and that he still knows and cares about the symbolicness it has in reference to their marriage
<DWROB> OK, that's not the only test, though -- how else can she tell it's O?
<delta> she knew that if she did something different to their old way he would flip
<vav> the bow
<aleph> that he is offended by being asked
<nu> the way he reacts
<bet> his anger
<dalet> She could tell by the archery
<kappa> His fury about the bed
<DWROB> his anger? why is he angry?
<DWROB> how is that characteristic?
<tau> what about the birthmark or scar on his thigh?
<bet> because he made the bed
<dalet> she defiled the bed
<delta> because she doesn't actually know if it is him
<he> pushing him to the "breaking pint"
<nu> because he loves her
<kappa> because that is a symbol of them
<aleph> he is the lord and does not want to be questioned
<DWROB> how is the anger characteristic?
<pi> its a pride thing, how dare she move the be he built
<chi> yes she was
<DWROB> PRIDE, thank you
<omicron> because all of the suitors have turned their back on him
<gamma6> b/c nobody else had seen the bed
<mu> because he never got angry before
<omega> his eyes
<omega> only he can string it
<bet> his pride was hurt
<DWROB> Exactly
<delta> he was a prideful man
<eta> ahh pride.. always
<DWROB> Now she can say, "Yes, that's my Odysseus!"
<beta> so the whole story revolves around his pride
<kappa> She knows him all to well
sigma (~sigma@vl044-234.vl044.GeorgiaSouthern.edu) left irc: Ping timeout
<bet> we know the ones we love flaw and all
<pi> its just something defining about him
<delta> why did she weave and unweave the thread day and night?
<DWROB> So who is the more clever tactician, O or Penelope? :-)
<GSUser> his rage
<aleph> in the end, Penelope
<tau> both equally
<dalet> P!
<pi> Penelope
<gamma6> Penelope
<beta> Penelope of course!
<yod> p!
<mu> I would still say O
<bet> both
<kappa> O because he is proven several times
<rho> he learns to live with his pride, both
<DWROB> She is the only one who ever succeeds in tricking him
<gamma6> a match made in heaven
<aleph> O should have figured out what she was doing
<DWROB> indeed
<bet> ahhhh!
<mu> o good point
<tau> oh ... didn't think about that
<he> she knows him all to well
<beta> of course a guy would still think O
<DWROB> yes
<yod> P was faithful
<mu> but that's still does not make it her
<eta> well Penelope unloaded on the tactics all at once
<DWROB> OK, we are done.
<DWROB> Hurrah!
<he> yeah
<dalet> she unweaved it because she promised
vav (~vav@209.221.53.171) left irc: Quit
nu (~supermanj@12.190.1.23) left irc: Quit
kappa (~kappa@209.221.53.60) left irc: Quit
tau (~tau@69.180.43.180) left irc: Quit
omicron (omicron@67-50-92-57.br2.tbr.ga.frontiernet.net) left #2111web.
<bet> bye
bet (~bet@67.50.85.106) left irc: Quit
<yod> nite nite classmates
<delta> thanx
<rho> bye
<aleph> bye
<dalet> that when the weaving was done, she would take a suitor
yod (~yod@209.138.65.11) left irc: Quit
pi (~pi@67.35.20.120) left irc: Quit
<mu> i have a question about the last question on the quiz
he (~he@host-12-173-142-145.nctv.com) left irc: Quit
aleph (~aleph@216.78.121.148) left irc: Quit
rho (~rho@eagle-dsl-12-158-101-142.enia.net) left irc: Quit
<omega> his presence that only a wife would know
<omega> Penelope
omega (~omega@141.165.127.70) left irc: Quit
<chi> he has pride in his work and doesn't feel that anyone else could imitate it
<chi> even after 20 yrs of not seeing him she knows how he will react that is amazing
<chi> a wife has magic powers when it comes to her husband
<delta> but wasn't she trying to be all faithful
upsilon (~upsilon@12.190.1.209) left irc: Quit
<theta> dr rob, i have a question about one of the quiz questions ...
<DWROB> theta: OK
<mu> what circumstances are you looking for
gamma (~gamma@host-12-173-143-21.nctv.com) joined #2111web.
<theta> what exactly do you mean, on the last question: what circumstances?
<DWROB> where is he when the story is told?
<theta> I just didn't understand the question ...
<DWROB> that's what I mean
<mu> ok
<theta> ok. thank you
<dalet> where is Homer or Odysseus
<theta> that clears things up
<DWROB> O
eta (~eta@64.139.240.145) left irc: Quit
<DWROB> Homer may not even have existed
<GSUser> Penelope
<GSUser> alright
GSUser (~GSUser@vl133-042.vl133.GeorgiaSouthern.edu) left irc: Quit
<mu> wasn't he still with the nymph
<DWROB> Not while telling the story of his travels
iota (~iota@vl047-209.vl047.GeorgiaSouthern.edu) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
<delta> he was at another kingdom
epsilon (~epsilon@vl046-230.vl046.GeorgiaSouthern.edu) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
theta (w33z@66.133.143.118) left irc: Quit: ##07#14I#07-#15n#07-#15v#07-#00i#07-#00s#07-#15i#07-#15o#07-#14n#07# 2.0 Build 3515
chi (~chi@vl124-252.vl124.GeorgiaSouthern.edu) left irc: Quit
mu (~mu@64.139.240.117) left irc: Quit
<beta> dr. rob -
<DWROB> still here
<delta> when exactly are our quizzes due?
<DWROB> first submission by five pm day of chat
<dalet> can we leave? :-P
<beta> earlier I didn't think I greeted anybody - why did you say you would kick me off?
<delta> oops I didn't' know that
<DWROB> beta: did I specify you by mistake? sorry.
gimmel (~gimmel@67-50-90-217.br2.tbr.ga.frontiernet.net) left irc: Quit
<DWROB> Greetings clutter the channel, so I have to warn people occasionally.
kaf (drjywnrl@67.50.85.13) left irc: Quit
<DWROB> I do kick people once in a while.
<beta> yeha, they get on my nerves to
<DWROB> Usually if they are obnoxious to other students, though
gamma6 (~gamma@host-12-173-143-21.nctv.com) left irc: Ping timeout
<DWROB> or to me!
<beta> I just wanted to clear that up, I said something before 8 but that was it
<DWROB> just kidding
xi (~xi@vl134-029.vl134.GeorgiaSouthern.edu) left irc: Quit
<delta> if I do my quiz to tonight will it take
dalet (~dalet@adsl-217-76-14.asm.bellsouth.net) left irc: Quit
<beta> thanks
<DWROB> if it's locked on you, e-mail me
<delta> okay thanks bye
gamma (~gamma@host-12-173-143-21.nctv.com) left irc: Quit
delta (April@64.139.241.122) left irc: Quit
beta (~beta@67-50-92-199.br2.tbr.ga.frontiernet.net) left irc: Quit
psi (~psi@64.139.232.234) left irc: Quit