Chat: ENGL 2111 (World Literature I) Winter 2005

Chat 8: Mahabharata


[00:00] --- Wed Mar 2 2005

[19:40] Topic changed on #2111web by DWROB!DWROB@ Mahabharata

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[19:46] <beta> how'd ya'll like the reading?

[19:47] <theta> it sucked

[19:47] <theta> couldn't pronounce the names ... so i named everyone myself ...

[19:47] <theta> which made the forum topic and quiz that much harder ... cuz i didn't know who was who ...

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[19:53] <beta> it wasn't so bad, just really, really long

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[19:58] <KENNY> Everybody, I'm Kenny, Dr. Robinson's Graduate Assistant

[19:59] <kappa> hello

[19:59] <KENNY> hi

[19:59] <beta> hi

[19:59] <dalet> nice to meet ya

[19:59] <epsilon> hi

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[19:59] <sigma> hi

[20:00] <upsilon> hi

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[20:00] <KENNY> How did everyone find the readings?

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[20:00] <dalet> hardest to date

[20:00] <aleph> difficult

[20:00] <beta> very long

[20:00] <upsilon> it was pretty hard to read

[20:00] <chi> hello

[20:00] <gamma> confusing

[20:00] <omicron> kinda hard to comprehend

[20:00] <chi> long

[20:01] <sigma> unenjoyable, compared to some of the others

[20:01] <epsilon> kinda confusing

[20:01] <dalet> the hardest part was deciphering the names

[20:01] <kappa> interesting, but complex family relations

[20:01] <phi> couldn't their names be bill and ted

[20:01] <beta> i gave them nick names

[20:01] <tau> i agree ... .the names were confusing

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[20:01] <sigma> me too

[20:01] <KENNY> yeah

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[20:02] <KENNY> Family names: read the texts with Dr. Rob's genealogy

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[20:02] <epsilon> i agree

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[20:02] <KENNY> And I wanted to talk a little about the handouts first

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[20:02] <chi> i did

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[20:02] <dalet> where's the genealogy?

[20:02] <KENNY> The defs of karma, dharma, etc.

[20:02] <beta> that flow chart helped

[20:02] <beta> too

[20:02] <epsilon> on the forum page

[20:03] <KENNY> To make the role of duty and fate in the text clearer

[20:03] <he> on the diss. page

[20:03] <dalet> i didn't find forum page

[20:03] <vav> I couldn't get it to come up

[20:03] <KENNY> xxxx: In the links

[20:03] <KENNY> on the main page

[20:03] <KENNY> Ok. With that, the readings will be much easier

[20:03] <kappa> Yeah it helped

[20:04] <KENNY> But you aren't too far behind cause a lot of people are struggling

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[20:04] <vav> it is hard to read

[20:04] <chi> yes

[20:05] <KENNY> Karma=action

[20:05] <eta> yes.. herd to keep up with all those names

[20:05] <KENNY> Karma implies an actor and places responsibility solely on the actor.

[20:05] <psi> yes

[20:05] <dalet> i got that part

[20:05] <chi> like "what goes around comes around"

[20:06] <KENNY> Every human gets what he deserves according to karma

[20:06] <psi> this story was very hard to read

[20:06] <KENNY> So the trick is to control the manner in which you act

[20:06] <vav> I got B. a lot better that Mah.

[20:06] <tau> if u treat someone bad, u get treated bad

[20:06] <kappa> Yeah, it is generally known as "what goes around comes around"

[20:06] <dalet> self discipline and self control

[20:06] <psi> gotta love karma

[20:06] <rho> good karma bad karma

[20:07] <KENNY> disc and controls are manners to control karma

[20:07] <kappa> If you are good and moral, you will be treated decent and morally

[20:07] <chi> that is why acting in an appropriate manner was a key theme

[20:07] <beta> and it is supposed to advance him/her to the path to emancipation of the spirit

[20:07] <KENNY> There is also reincarnation

[20:07] <kappa> It seems to be more important to the Pandavas than the Kurus

[20:08] <kappa> Is there a difference of religion there?

[20:08] <beta> the Hindu's ultimate religious goal

[20:08] <vav> Why were they fighting?

[20:08] <aleph> they believed in the same gods

[20:08] <chi> i like the idea of reincarnation

[20:08] <tau> better be good in this life or you'll come back as a fly or something

[20:08] <rho> what is done in this life determines what they become in the next life

[20:08] <beta> yes

[20:08] <KENNY> xxxx: The only difference I thought

[20:08] <KENNY> Is that the Pandavas are the protagonists

[20:08] <he> what determines what you will come back as

[20:08] <kappa> alright

[20:08] <KENNY> And the Kauravas are the antagonists

[20:09] <rho> true

[20:09] <sigma> over leadership?

[20:09] <epsilon> yes

[20:09] <KENNY> the Kauravas do not control the manner of their actions very well

[20:09] <beta> nope

[20:09] <kappa> They let everyone know how they feel, good or bad

[20:09] <beta> they think they are bad to the cone

[20:09] <epsilon> no

[20:09] <beta> *bone

[20:09] <chi> no they have low morals

[20:09] <dalet> why did Duryod hate the Pandavas so much?

[20:10] <KENNY> The Pandavas were exiled after the dice duel

[20:10] <psi> they are very arrogant

[20:10] <beta> jealousy

[20:10] <lambda> no they don't

[20:10] <yod> bout the land right?

[20:10] <tau> cause they were getting more attention ( i think)

[20:10] <vav> it was over their kingdom?

[20:10] <psi> because he was jealous

[20:10] <aleph> I thought they were going to become slaves because of the dice game

[20:10] <chi> he was competitive

[20:10] <psi> they had the nice worship center

[20:10] <beta> they almost did

[20:10] <KENNY> When they returned the Kauravas refused to allow them to.

[20:10] <he> jealousy

[20:10] <gamma> they were forced to gamble

[20:10] <psi> and he declared solitary something

[20:10] <beta> b/c of ancient traditions

[20:11] <KENNY> Jealousy, competition, the kingdom

[20:11] <psi> that is why they went to war

[20:11] <psi> they came back after the 13 years

[20:11] <chi> they liked their role as rulers and didn't want to give that up

[20:11] <epsilon> that's why it was so important that he would risk all his possessions

[20:11] <lambda> jealousy

[20:11] <psi> they liked there kingdom

[20:11] <tau> durod was a very jealous person and his uncle just egged him on

[20:11] <psi> if you had something for 13 years i wouldn't want to give it back

[20:12] <KENNY> Do you see why the dice duel is allowing fate to decide through dharma (duty)?

[20:12] <beta> he didn't egg him on - he helped him cheat

[20:12] <phi> he risked all that just for competition?

[20:12] <dalet> no

[20:12] <epsilon> yes

[20:12] <kappa> Yes

[20:12] <psi> he helped him cheat a lot

[20:12] <sigma> yes

[20:12] <beta> no, he had to b/c of tradition

[20:12] <chi> yes

[20:12] <psi> but he didn't have to play after the king gave it all back

[20:12] <phi> yes

[20:12] <iota> absolutely

[20:12] <psi> he had to the first time

[20:12] <kappa> it was Yuro's duty to accept any challenge and they took severe advantage of his inability to play well

[20:12] <beta> yes

[20:12] <psi> the second time he just got what he deserved

[20:13] <he> i thought they were forced to play the game

[20:13] <sigma> he risked it all because he was unaware that it would be an unfair match

[20:13] <he> how could that contribute to karma

[20:13] <chi> he felt that the outcome was his fate therefore he couldn't fight it

[20:13] <beta> his duty

[20:13] <gamma> he had to accept the challenge

[20:13] <beta> exactly

[20:13] <vav> it was over their kingdom?

[20:13] <kappa> Duty plays a large role in Yuro's actions

[20:13] <KENNY> Frye: He is taking action

[20:13] <dalet> what does it have to do w/dharma

[20:13] <KENNY> Karma=action

[20:13] <he> ah

[20:13] <epsilon> that's why he stakes everything

[20:14] <beta> dharma=duty

[20:14] <KENNY> yes

[20:14] <lambda> did he have to take this action?

[20:14] <sigma> but how was it his fate if he was intentionally cheated out of his possessions?

[20:14] <epsilon> it was his duty

[20:14] <KENNY> Dharma is duty

[20:14] <chi> he will get what he deserves

[20:14] <DWROB> Dharma==the rules of the game

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[20:14] <eta> he lost them to a series of games tight? he probably wanted to win things back

[20:14] <epsilon> what goes around comes around

[20:14] <sigma> if the outcome was either deserved or unintentional, then it would seem to be fate.

[20:15] <pi2> he needs to know when to cut your losses

[20:15] <KENNY> Like Yudhisthira took part in the duel because of dharma

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[20:15] <aleph> he shouldn't have played with fate - allowing fate to take action

[20:15] <rho> his duty

[20:15] <beta> it says on pg 955 "Y is obliged to last time"

[20:15] <GSUser> nick def

[20:15] <pi2> he didn't want to play but dharma made it necessary that he did

[20:15] <gamma> he was forced to make a choice that would have an effect either way

[20:15] <mu> yes forced

[20:15] <phi> what did he take away from that D guy? just that castle?

[20:15] <pi2> but he did go a little far with it

[20:15] <chi> he should have made his own fate

[20:15] <psi> hey decided to play the last time

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[20:16] <he> kinda saying you will all have to make a choice for yourself at least once

[20:16] <beta> it says on pg 955 "Y is obliged to last time"

[20:16] <mu> tricked

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[20:16] <epsilon> he was forced because that was his duty

[20:16] <yod> was it something inside him that made him play?

[20:16] <beta> it says on pg 955 "Y is obliged to last time"

[20:16] <eta> he was always ready for a gamble.. i think

[20:16] <lambda> why is he obligated

[20:16] <vav> yes

[20:16] <KENNY> Ayer: Yes

[20:16] <beta> it also says Y was against gambling

[20:17] <epsilon> with all his possessions this time, that's risky

[20:17] <sigma> thanks, we already saw about page 955

[20:17] <KENNY> His duty

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[20:17] <chi> yes it does

[20:17] <epsilon> why was he willing to stake that?

[20:17] <psi> i don't think it is anyone's duty to lose everything

[20:17] <kappa> Dharma

[20:17] <beta> he wasn't willing , he HAD to

[20:17] <psi> he lost it all not just for him but also for his family

[20:17] <dalet> Does Dharma lead to Karma?

[20:17] <psi> He didn't HAVE to the second time

[20:17] <chi> they cherish duty more then freedom

[20:17] <DWROB> psi: It might be. If it is for you, that's just tough.

[20:18] <KENNY> But he puts his duty above all else

[20:18] <rho> duty above his belief

[20:18] <epsilon> because of tradition?

[20:18] <aleph> how can duty be related to gambling?

[20:18] <beta> which is what they are supposed to do

[20:18] <vav> why gamble you wife?

[20:18] <KENNY> Duty is his belief

[20:18] <kappa> Duty plays an extremely large role in his beliefs

[20:19] <KENNY> She is property

[20:19] <sigma> duty is the primary driving force in their society

[20:19] <aleph> so it's his duty to gamble if someone challenges him?

[20:19] <gamma> that is why he made the decision he did

[20:19] <dalet> duty influences karma

[20:19] <kappa> He acted proper according to his beliefs

[20:19] <epsilon> oh that makes sense

[20:19] <pi> i understand that he had to play but did he have to go as far with it as he did or did he just go over board?

[20:19] <theta> I agree, but I also agree with aleph ... what does duty have to do with gambling?

[20:19] <kappa> Their beliefs

[20:19] <beta> yes, its his duty b/c of ancient tradition

[20:19] <pi> duty to uphold tradition

[20:19] <epsilon> that was their belief

[20:19] <he> that was their tradition

[20:19] <rho> it has to do with fate

[20:19] <KENNY> xxxx: Fate is the outcome of the gambling

[20:19] <beta> i agree with xxxx

[20:19] <lambda> he has to do it because of tradition

[20:19] <KENNY> It is fate, not that they are indifferent to what happens

[20:20] <eta> ahhhhh that makes sense

[20:20] <sigma> if a challenge arises (ex. gambling), then it is the duty of the challenged to go forth

[20:20] <eta> if you lose, you were meant to lose

[20:20] <chi> like arranged marriages are a duty

[20:20] <DWROB> KENNY: well stated

[20:20] <chi> they aren't't good but they are a duty

[20:20] <aleph> so you couldn't control any of what happened?

[20:20] <beta> that's what fate is

[20:20] <kappa> How is Draupadi Y's property if she is also married to others?

[20:20] <aleph> you were meant to lose everything to gambling

[20:21] <beta> she is shared property

[20:21] <pi> but if he was meant to lose then wouldn't he have lost in a fair game not a fixed one like the one he was involved in?

[20:21] <epsilon> she is still apart of his property

[20:21] <lambda> due to things you did in a past life you are meant to lose it all now?

[20:21] <chi> she is shared, like family property

[20:21] <dalet> if fate is the outcome of gambling,

[20:21] <dalet> then the fate was chosen

[20:21] <dalet> ?

[20:21] <chi> but fate knew the game would be fixed

[20:21] <chi> that too was fate

[20:22] <beta> yeah

[20:22] <KENNY> Did you pick up on some of the weapons being magical and the gods being in the war?

[20:22] <rho> fate knows the end game

[20:22] <kappa> Yes

[20:22] <dalet> YES

[20:22] <aleph> this story does not allow for free will of any kind

[20:22] <eta> yes

[20:22] <eta> the arrow that returned

[20:22] <kappa> Several weapons were "won" from the gods by some of the competitors.

[20:22] <epsilon> kinda

[20:22] <chi> a little

[20:22] <aleph> yes, different gods were on different sides

[20:22] <sigma> yes

[20:22] <beta> yes - sort of

[20:22] <KENNY> That their is less separation between the physical and spiritual worlds for Hindu

[20:22] <yod> kin folks on different sides

[20:22] <KENNY> Partly because of reincarnation

[20:22] <lambda> somewhat

[20:23] <vav> the Bow was one of these weapons

[20:23] <aleph> weren't some of the people in the story fathered by some gods?

[20:23] <dalet> like Krishna

[20:23] <epsilon> reincarnation

[20:23] <chi> well in the battle of troy certain gods were on certain sides also

[20:23] <rho> actually the ghost of ancestor live with the family

[20:23] <sigma> the charioteer

[20:23] <beta> i think some of them had god-fathers

[20:23] <chi> can you be reincarnated as a god?

[20:23] <dalet> i thought that was Buddhism

[20:24] <KENNY> How is the god's role different/similar in M than it is in the Odyssey?

[20:24] <aleph> the gods actually will fight

[20:24] <sigma> if fate set out for you to be a god

[20:24] <vav> hinder and help

[20:24] <aleph> they also talk to each about fighting

[20:24] <lambda> more direct impact

[20:24] <kappa> They each seem to help the protagonist

[20:24] <he> your fate is already know

[20:24] <he> n

[20:24] <chi> they gods take a more active role

[20:24] <dalet> exactly. they are more involved in actually fighting, and taking sides

[20:24] <iota> The gods help to lead the humans in the right direction

[20:24] <rho> the gods can lose things

[20:24] <KENNY> xxxx: Right

[20:24] <beta> the Pandavas are divinely conceived, right?

[20:24] <aleph> the encourage the war

[20:25] <KENNY> How is Athena's role different than Krishna's?

[20:25] <dalet> they don't seem as invincible

[20:25] <sigma> Krishna and Athena remind me of one another

[20:25] <kappa> Athena comes in to help more than one person.

[20:25] <tau> Athena had to ask permission from her father

[20:25] <pi> Athena gave T some motivation to find his pops

[20:25] <KENNY> Or Zeus' from the Sun God when he gets Kunti to conceive?

[20:25] <aleph> she is a guiding force for O

[20:25] <beta> they seem alike in many ways

[20:25] <iota> Athena helps Odysseus and his son'

[20:26] <theta> they do act a lot alike

[20:26] <pi> Krishna had to be a lot deeper and point out Arjuna's dharmatic duty

[20:26] <beta> guiding force for their patrons

[20:26] <epsilon> Athena's role was more prominent

[20:26] <gamma> i thought they were similar as well

[20:26] <kappa> Krishna seems to be strictly for Arjuna and indirectly helping everyone else, while Athena is there for Odysseus and Telemachus

[20:26] <chi> Krishna guides, where as Athena was more demanding

[20:26] <dalet> Krishna seems more involved in the actual physical part

[20:26] <rho> O's protection from fate

[20:26] <psi> they all are helping each other out

[20:26] <KENNY> Athena is guided more by personal traits

[20:26] <lambda> Krishna is more direct, Athena is more about getting the right path

[20:26] <beta> that's b/c Krishna was a person, incarnate

[20:26] <theta> Athena was a little more deceiving ... in her disguise

[20:27] <he> Athena could be whoever she wanted

[20:27] <psi> Athena also helped out more

[20:27] <KENNY> Besides Zeus' will, she is guided by her own trickery, desire to help Od, etc.

[20:27] <psi> she was there many times

[20:27] <epsilon> Athena was more indirect

[20:27] <KENNY> But Krishna is guided by duty

[20:27] <epsilon> yes

[20:27] <KENNY> Self-Discipline

[20:27] <beta> ok, that makes sense

[20:27] <KENNY> Fate

[20:28] <phi> Athena showed up incognito, but Krishna goes as a real person because that is what he expects her to be

[20:28] <chi> Athena did what she wanted with no real limits

[20:28] <yod> always

[20:28] <psi> she was a god

[20:28] <psi> Krishna is a reincarnation

[20:28] <beta> yeah, she didn't have as many rules to follow

[20:29] <tau> a reincarnation of Vishnu, right?

[20:29] <psi> she mostly set her own rules

[20:29] <KENNY> More self guided action for Athena

[20:29] <KENNY> Hurl: Right

[20:29] <dalet> i do believe so.

[20:29] <chi> exactly

[20:29] <he> what determines how they are reincarnated

[20:29] <epsilon> agree

[20:29] <beta> their karma

[20:29] <rho> behavior

[20:29] <tau> the way they acted in their previous life

[20:29] <eta> the life the lead i think

[20:29] <aleph> how good they were

[20:29] <beta> their actions

[20:29] <kappa> Athena seems to do what she is wanting to do for personal reasons

[20:30] <yod> their previous life's actions

[20:30] <KENNY> Can you think of other ways that Hinduism and JC differ because of the Patriarchal system?

[20:30] <psi> yea i bet is is what kind of life they led previously

[20:30] <epsilon> karma

[20:30] <dalet> Vishnu is the preserver god?

[20:30] <beta> yes

[20:30] <rho> the number of gods

[20:30] <KENNY> Besides the additional self-responsibility

[20:30] <epsilon> mono and poly theism

[20:30] <eta> yes ... the many gods ... the way the gods speak to the people

[20:30] <dalet> reincarnation

[20:30] <lambda> Athena can do as she pleases, while Krishna has fate and duty leading essentially

[20:30] <KENNY> They are polytheistic

[20:31] <KENNY> But not in a western sense

[20:31] <rho> what is right and what is wrong

[20:31] <pi> karma dharma samsara ... none of these things show up in the JC but they are very important in Hinduism

[20:31] <tau> in Christianity, you go to heaven, in Hinduism you try to achieve the perfect light (or something along those lines)

[20:31] <dalet> the physical beings of the gods

[20:31] <KENNY> There doesn't seem to be as much communication between gods in Hinduism

[20:31] <chi> some ideas are similar

[20:32] <kappa> reincarnation

[20:32] <eta> but you still pretty much have to be a good person in both religions

[20:32] <chi> Nirvana

[20:32] <beta> emancipation of the spirit is their ultimate spiritual goal

[20:32] <rho> yea in Hinduism you try to come back as a dog not a ant

[20:32] <KENNY> Hall: How so?

[20:32] <aleph> didn't they tell each other (the gods) that they would not fight each other, they would each fight one at a time?

[20:32] <chi> they have different ideas of perfection

[20:32] <lambda> the basic idea of being a good person is the same in both

[20:32] <KENNY> Hall: Explain Nirvana

[20:32] <tau> isn't nirvana what you are trying to achieve

[20:32] <tau> the highest you can go

[20:32] <def>

[20:33] <rho> heaven

[20:33] <eta> a state of being ... a gooood state of being

[20:33] <aleph> isn't it the best state of being

[20:33] <tau> you are just a light

[20:33] <chi> do on to other ... , karma, they parallel each other

[20:33] <KENNY> xxxx: Yes

[20:33] <pi> a state of being when you have transcended from samsara

[20:33] <rho> utopia

[20:33] <dalet> is it a state of total enlightenment

[20:33] <chi> Nirvana is reaching the greater light so to speak

[20:33] <pi> the state of Buddha

[20:33] <KENNY> Both renounce excesses, impulsive desire

[20:33] <chi> it's finding the utopia in the end

[20:33] <lambda> total enlightenment

[20:33] <chi> it's a great achievement

[20:34] <pi> transcendence from Samsara

[20:34] <tau> its what u are ultimately trying to achieve

[20:34] <dalet> what's the other word they used?

[20:34] <phi> the great goal in life

[20:34] <epsilon> accomplishment

[20:34] <dalet> i think it starts w/a c when you are totally enlightened

[20:34] <kappa> Renouncing desires such as wealth

[20:35] <pi> moksha

[20:35] <tau> and material things

[20:35] <chi> yeah total enlightenment is a good way to put it

[20:35] <KENNY> In BG, How does Krishna help Arjuna with his conflict with duty?

[20:35] <dalet> he explains it as his dharma

[20:35] <gamma> explains to him why he must fight

[20:35] <vav> Tells him it is his duty

[20:35] <KENNY> What is Arjuna's dilemma?

[20:35] <eta> he tells him he is a warrior and must act as a warrior

[20:35] <rho> tells him to fight

[20:35] <chi> she supports him and guides him

[20:36] <kappa> Explains he has a duty and it needs to get done

[20:36] <aleph> he explains that action against his family is what will reward him in the end

[20:36] <pi> dharma is more important in the long run because he is achieving something higher by fighting

[20:36] <he> tells him to fight

[20:36] <dalet> reincarnation

[20:36] <gamma> it is family

[20:36] <tau> Arj doesn't want to fight

[20:36] <he> but he must fight

[20:36] <iota> explains that it is his duty

[20:36] <epsilon> explains why things are the way they are, his dharma or duty

[20:36] <dalet> is his dilemma

[20:36] <rho> its his duty

[20:36] <kappa> Also explains how it won't really effect his next life because it is his duty

[20:36] <tau> but, krs says he has to (dharma)

[20:36] <KENNY> Duty--there's that word again

[20:36] <beta> he doesn't want to fight but it is his duty

[20:36] <KENNY> right

[20:36] <eta> there ya go ...

[20:37] <aleph> duty is what gets you better off in the next life

[20:37] <pi> he thinks killing his cousins will affect him negatively in his next life -- bad karma

[20:37] <lambda> his his duty is his dilemma

[20:37] <dalet> because of his caste, he wont be punished

[20:37] <KENNY> He doesn't worry as much about the "fruits of his actions"

[20:37] <KENNY> According to Krishna

[20:37] <pi> but Krishna lets him know that that's not true, in this situation fighting is actually good karma

[20:37] <dalet> Arj wont be punished because of his caste

[20:37] <beta> so dharma is more important than karma?

[20:37] <aleph> doing one's duty is good karma

[20:37] <chi> he doesn't want to sin, similar to JC beliefs

[20:37] <dalet> evidently

[20:37] <pi> no but dharma affects karma

[20:38] <pi> killing his cousins might seem like bad karma but because of dharma its actually good karma

[20:38] <KENNY> xxxx:right

[20:38] <def> dharma is a reflection of karma

[20:38] <def> or is it the other way around

[20:38] <tau> aren't they equally important? ... they rely on each other

[20:38] <eta> confusing

[20:38] <epsilon> other way

[20:39] <dalet> seems messed up either way it goes

[20:39] <KENNY> Brahman I think relates to the manner in which you perform action

[20:39] <chi> they are interwoven

[20:39] <KENNY> You pray

[20:39] <KENNY> meditate

[20:39] <KENNY> have self-discipline

[20:39] <pi> fighting might seem like a bad thing right? something that would bring bad karma. But because it is his duty to fight, he is preserving dharma by fighting which results in good karma

[20:39] <aleph> i thought it was a caste you were born into

[20:39] <kappa> It is also apparent to live up to your word regardless of how cruel it is (drinking of the blood)

[20:39] <KENNY> try to align yourself with the Universal spirit

[20:40] <chi> self-discipline is lacking now a days

[20:40] <kappa> Remove yourself from wants and become extremely disciplined

[20:40] <dalet> true, the discipline part is good

[20:40] <KENNY> In the end, he explains he didn't swallow the blood

[20:40] <kappa> I know

[20:40] phi ( left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer

[20:40] <tau> can you be reincarnated after you reach nirvana?

[20:40] <KENNY> Another similarity between jc and Hinduism is--

[20:40] <kappa> but he lived up to his promise

[20:40] <epsilon> yes

[20:40] <KENNY> Inaction is bad

[20:40] <KENNY> sinful

[20:41] <dalet> reaping in JC, karma in Hinduism

[20:41] <chi> like Jonah

[20:41] <KENNY> Action is the goal

[20:41] <pi> if you are incarnate and have achieved nirvana you are a Buddha

[20:41] <kappa> Action is important

[20:41] <KENNY> in a disciplined manner

[20:41] <psi> important

[20:41] <KENNY> Think of Gandhi

[20:41] <dalet> the seed you sow u reap

[20:42] <lambda> the right actions are important

[20:42] <pi> the Gita was his main religious text right?

[20:42] <aleph> self sacrifice

[20:42] <KENNY> The intro mentioned how he read the BG and applied it to modern times

[20:42] <KENNY> I believe so

[20:42] <chi> by fasting

[20:42] <psi> fasting

[20:42] <vav> by no violence

[20:42] <he> none violence

[20:43] <epsilon> peaceful approach

[20:43] <aleph> depriving yourself of pleasure will reap the most rewards in spirit

[20:43] <beta> So Brahma is the power that brings changes to the physical universe and atman is the change to the spiritual universe

[20:43] <rho> then again, all religions are true

[20:43] <chi> fasting is nonviolence

[20:43] <KENNY> Take your good questions about Hinduism to Dr. Rob. He knows more than I do.

[20:43] <dalet> This is said in JC but mostly in worship form

[20:43] <KENNY> How does Arjuna respond to Krishna revealing himself in divine form?

[20:43] <dalet> scared

[20:44] <dalet> him

[20:44] <KENNY> Keep this in mind ... compare to Athena revealing herself to Odysseus

[20:44] <epsilon> frightened

[20:44] <chi> shock

[20:44] <rho> ah

[20:44] <psi> shocked

[20:44] <vav> in awe

[20:44] <aleph> he shows him something that scared him

[20:44] <eta> yes xxxx

[20:44] <tau> agree with hall

[20:44] <he> in aww

[20:44] <kappa> He is shocked

[20:44] <eta> shock

[20:44] <gamma> shocked

[20:44] <aleph> Athena was always careful to conceal herself

[20:44] <beta> awe

[20:44] <psi> very shocked

[20:44] <kappa> but eventually comes around when changes back

[20:44] <epsilon> ya shock, in aww

[20:44] <KENNY> And remember it when we read Divine Comedy for when Dante experiences God

[20:44] <psi> yep

[20:44] <lambda> shock

[20:45] <KENNY> Ahhh

[20:45] <KENNY> Awe

[20:45] <eta> but telem.. knew that it was really Athena i think

[20:45] <def> shocked

[20:45] <KENNY> Awe with Arjuna

[20:45] <dalet> I thought he was more scared

[20:45] <beta> he was probably thankful though

[20:45] <KENNY> Awe with the gods with less selfish motivations

[20:45] <vav> Why did he reveal himself?

[20:45] <epsilon> yes

[20:46] <chi> i would have been honored

[20:46] <he> to honor him

[20:46] <chi> for fun

[20:46] <KENNY> xxxx: To help Arjuna in his faith

[20:46] <dalet> K said he didn't reveal himself often

[20:47] <chi> i would if i were a god, to see the look on people's faces

[20:47] <KENNY> To show Arjuna his devotion to Krishna

[20:47] <vav> that helps, thanks

[20:47] <KENNY> And importance of devotion to karma, dharma, etc.

[20:47] <KENNY> page 1027

[20:47] <dalet> K said he never exposed himself to none but Ar

[20:47] <KENNY> To grace you, Arjuna,

[20:48] <KENNY> I revealed through self-discipline my higher form

[20:48] <rho> proof of existence

[20:48] <KENNY> which no one but you has ever beheld

[20:48] <KENNY> He may also be getting closer to Nirvana too

[20:49] <dalet> oh

[20:49] <dalet> Ar is reaching Nirvana

[20:49] <KENNY> Because Krishna says he gives Arjuna the divine eye or something

[20:49] <KENNY> so he can see his true form

[20:49] <rho> most prophets in other religions have the same experience

[20:49] <chi> devotion

[20:50] <vav> didn't other gods wish to have this eye thing

[20:50] <chi> anyone there?

[20:50] chi (~chi@ left irc: Quit

[20:50] <beta> obviously A is favored by K

[20:50] <KENNY> yes

[20:50] omega ( left irc: Ping timeout

[20:51] <KENNY> Looking for the quote

[20:51] <KENNY> probably

[20:51] <dalet> because of his devotion, A saw K in this rare form

[20:51] <beta> agreed, K calls A "great hero"

[20:51] <epsilon> his self discipline

[20:52] <KENNY> Part of seeing Krishna shows the non-separation with physical and spiritual in Hindu

[20:52] chi (~chi@ joined #2111web.

[20:52] <KENNY> He tells Arjuna to see all the universe when he sees him

[20:52] <epsilon> ahh

[20:52] <psi> ok

[20:52] <sigma> right

[20:52] <chi> cool

[20:53] <beta> complete and total enlightenment

[20:54] he ( left irc: Quit

[20:54] <dalet> So, Arj was in Nirvana?

[20:54] <iota> i think he was

[20:54] <dalet> no

[20:54] <lambda> Arj found inner peace?

[20:54] <KENNY> Dunno

[20:54] <yod> apparently so

[20:54] <dalet> LOL

[20:54] <KENNY> Just suggesting he might be closer to it

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[20:55] <dalet> Dr. Rob., where are U?

[20:55] <KENNY> Going back to the Mahabharata ...

[20:55] <dalet> please don't

[20:55] <KENNY> DWROB---Do you know how Nirvana fits in with Arjuna and Krishna?

[20:55] iota ( left irc: Quit

[20:56] <vav> no answer

[20:56] <chi> i think he is closer to Nirvana but not there yet

[20:56] <beta> looks like we are on our own

[20:56] <psi> so i guess we can go out now to the bars right

[20:56] <KENNY> yep

[20:56] <vav> define Nirvana

[20:57] iota ( joined #2111web.

[20:57] <psi> a band

[20:57] <KENNY> Hall: I agree

[20:57] <dalet> i guess it's time to go to bed. what bars in Statesboro?

[20:57] <kappa> moving closer is better than nothing

[20:57] <tau> universal truth ... the highest you can go

[20:57] <eta> yes

[20:57] <beta> agreed xxxx

[20:57] <dalet> u r not in Buckhead

[20:57] <def> legends is free until 11:00

[20:57] <pi> i am

[20:58] <def> i know

[20:58] <KENNY> xxxx: Stay on task please

[20:58] <def> that's why i go to gsu

[20:58] <KENNY> Everyone

[20:58] <KENNY> page 984-985

[20:58] <vav> what paragraph

[20:59] <KENNY> Duryodhana hisses like a serpent

[20:59] <kappa> Showing he is evil like the one in Genesis

[20:59] <KENNY> 984 last p

[20:59] <psi> go to sky

[20:59] <KENNY> 985 first p

[20:59] <psi> or nickel

[20:59] <KENNY> described as a wicked prince

[21:00] <beta> well he is isn't he?

[21:00] <KENNY> Those appealing to him describe his actions as poisonous

[21:00] <chi> wicked=serpent

[21:00] <pi> their half brother Vidura wheezes like a snake on 969

[21:00] <dalet> the symbolism of the hissing is important

[21:00] <eta> i think so

[21:00] <aleph> he refuses to see things any other way

[21:00] <KENNY> sinful

[21:01] <epsilon> wicked

[21:01] <KENNY> definitely

[21:01] <aleph> snake always describes someone evil

[21:01] <beta> agreed

[21:01] <mu> a snake is like a symbol of evil

[21:01] <pi> yeah Duryodhana is a mean, ill spirited, jealous, cheating, lying, dick

[21:01] <chi> i love the idea of poisonous actions

[21:01] <lambda> is this where the bible took the snake tempting eve

[21:01] <chi> wow

[21:01] <pi> that's how stds are transmitted

[21:02] <KENNY> It suggests their is a common source or reason that both eastern and western faiths assoc evil with snakes

[21:02] <KENNY> poison

[21:02] <pi> no this was written after genesis

[21:02] <dalet> stay on subject

[21:02] <pi> snakes freak people out

[21:02] <aleph> because they usually could kill people back then

[21:02] <dalet> it seem divine why people are so afraid of snakes

[21:03] <chi> not all people

[21:03] <dalet> i know, but many are

[21:03] <sigma> xxxx: can't they still kill people?

[21:03] <KENNY> I don't have the answer, I'm just giving food for thought

[21:03] <KENNY> Certain common traits are also seen bad in both

[21:03] <epsilon> they represent evil because they kill

[21:03] <KENNY> self-restraint=good

[21:03] <aleph> yes, but we have anti-venom now

[21:03] <dalet> sneaky

[21:03] <pi> over in India the snakes are all incredibly poisonous

[21:03] <KENNY> gluttony, excess=bad

[21:03] <KENNY> etc

[21:04] <beta> anti-venom - that's always good

[21:04] <KENNY> DWROB may know of a more definite reason

[21:04] <sigma> in the southwest U.S. maybe

[21:04] <kappa> If you can't control yourself why should you be given control over a group of people

[21:04] <aleph> in a lot of places

[21:04] <dalet> it's after 9pm

[21:04] <vav> isn't gluttony one of the seven sins or something to that nature?

[21:05] <eta> yes

[21:05] <dalet> yes

[21:05] <pi> in Catholicism

[21:05] <dalet> seven deadly sins

[21:05] <vav> what are the other 6

[21:05] <tau> sloth

[21:05] <pi> go rent the movie 7

[21:05] <dalet> envy, sloth

[21:05] <epsilon> yes

[21:05] <KENNY> avarice and greed

[21:05] <epsilon> greed

[21:05] <dalet> gluttony

[21:05] <chi> pride

[21:05] <dalet> vanity

[21:05] <theta> lust

[21:06] <pi> good job guys

[21:06] <vav> some of these are in both stories, right

[21:06] <def> lust

[21:06] <KENNY> Any more questions about the M and BG?

[21:06] <kappa> nope

[21:06] <KENNY> Reread them if you need to

[21:06] <dalet> will do

[21:06] <eta> probably do need to

[21:06] <theta> most definitely

[21:06] <pi> they are all basic things that lead to degradation of the spirit and disconnection from a higher being, that's why most religions have adopted the same basic habits as sins

[21:06] <vav> I will have too

[21:06] <chi> nope

[21:06] <chi> ok

[21:07] <KENNY> There will be a test

[21:07] <yod> wow xxxx

[21:07] <vav> I might understand them better now ... I hope

[21:07] <KENNY> xxxx: Thanks

[21:07] <vav> on which.

[21:07] <chi> what test?

[21:07] <beta> what test? when?

[21:07] <dalet> the chat helped a lot

[21:07] <KENNY> final

[21:07] <KENNY> The Final

[21:07] <KENNY> due

[21:07] <KENNY> duh

[21:07] <epsilon> huh

[21:07] <sigma> where?

[21:08] <dalet> i thought there was a test b4 the final

[21:08] <KENNY> The one at the end of the semester

[21:08] <chi> there is

[21:08] <epsilon> why are we talking about that now

[21:08] <dalet> suggesting we better know our stuff

[21:08] <KENNY> 3-31

[21:08] <sigma> what wer does

[21:08] <vav> bc we can look forward to it

[21:09] <epsilon> oh i got confused for a second

[21:09] <eta> good times

[21:09] <KENNY> Mar 31

[21:09] <epsilon> so our next test is the 31

[21:09] <KENNY> ok

[21:09] <KENNY> Sorry

[21:09] <pi> even though this was the hardest thing to read so far the eastern religions i find the most interesting

[21:09] <KENNY> Good Night