Chat 10: Gospel of Matthew
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#2111web: mode change '+o DWROB' by Socrates!~Socrates@192.168.1.5
Topic changed on #2111web by DWROB!DWROB@192.168.1.10: Gospel of Matthew
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<upsilon> Dr. Rob, is there anyway that we can find out what our grade is in this class? If we have passed every quiz, does that mean we have a A for the quiz portion of the grade even though some of them may have bee retakes?
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<DWROB> upsilon: correct
<upsilon> thanks
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<beta> what about our forum grades?
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<DWROB> if you post every week, it's an A, and downhill from there.
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<DWROB> Are people experiencing shorter wait times to connect to the channel?
<pi> so if you missed a week is that a B?
<rho> yes, shorter time
<omicron> sometimes i am
<DWROB> no, thee is a little wiggle room, but miss three and it definitely pulls the grade down
<chi> do we still get credit if we answer the forum questions after the chat?
<chi> yes
<omicron> but sometimes it wont let me connect at all
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<DWROB> I have a new firewalling arrangement, and it seems to have helped connection speed.
<iota> DWROB did you get my email with my test on it?
<DWROB> Yes!
<DWROB> OK, we need to start.
<DWROB> Put this text in context -- how does ti surprise you after having read the other material this term?
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<beta> definitely not the same type of stuff
<dalet> doesn't
<iota> I already knew something about the reading
<sigma> no
<kappa> it is not really surprising
<omicron> i already had background on it
<tau> I have already read it
<epsilon> very different
<aleph> there is no pride found in the reading
<sigma> it was a lot more informative
<gamma> not surprising
<omicron> so it seems a lot more familiar
<DWROB> You haven't read it this way, though.
<pi> its difficult to try and change my perspective on Matthew
<delta> different
<mu> very much different from the rest
<dalet> humility
<DWROB> Different how?
<beta> not the same story
<lamed> I learned It in school but i reread it
<theta> it was written persuasively
<delta> I'm not really sure but I know it is the same in the aspect of leadership
<eta> the way its told ... it has people int he story telling stories
<lamed> gave historical back ground
<kappa> Jesus didn't have a flaw
<DWROB> My emphasis in this discussion will be on the wisdom portions, not the narrative portions.
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<mu> it has quotes
<DWROB> This is because the wisdom stuff relates in an interesting way to the prior literature of the Hebrew Bible
<dalet> very humbling
<aleph> every story had a reason behind telling it - something to learn
<beta> yep
<DWROB> If you read my lecture notes, you should know what is distinctive about this Gospel.
<chi> it wasn't as concerned with what the audience thought of the writing as far as a piece goes
<chi> they were just trying to put a message out there
<chi> these people knew every detail of every interaction they ever had with Jesus
<chi> a book of morals
<iota> I really did enjoy this reading it was easier to understand than the others
<eta> and lessons
<DWROB> chi: to whom?
<sigma> a longer emphasis on the morals and guidelines for living
<beta> MT was very interested in showing how Old Testament prophesies came true
<epsilon> they knew all the details
<DWROB> what's the primary audience?
<kaf> Jews
<beta> Jews
<gamma> the literal translation cannot be seen by the words in the text
<omicron> Jews?
<DWROB> Precisely
<kappa> Jews
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<mem> Jews
<delta> Jews
<chi> i read the notes, but couldn't remember the time line
<rho> future generations
<mem> Jews
<DWROB> that's why the Jewish prophecy is mentioned
<DWROB> nobody else would have cared about that
<epsilon> Jews
<psi> Jews
<lamed> the Jews
<DWROB> Also the genealogy
<iota> to people who want to become better in the eyes of God?
<DWROB> genealogy
<chi> the middle class
<chi> not the poor
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<sigma> Jews
<DWROB> Of course it is read by other people, but Jews are the main audience, the original intended audience
<psi> this is the King James version
<DWROB> And what is the defining aspect of the Jewish religion?
<DWROB> How is it distinctive?
<delta> monotheism
<chi> i wondered where the prophecies kept coming from
<rho> the covenant
<kaf> covenants
<eta> covenant?
<gamma> monotheism
<DWROB> Yes and yes
<psi> the covenant
<dalet> the covenant
<DWROB> A covenant with is expressed in ... .?
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<chi> they believe a profit will return
<kappa> Genesis
<dalet> last supper
<beta> covenants and monotheism
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<gamma> reward for obedience
<psi> last supper
<delta> last supper
<lamed> the story of Jesus Christ as the savior
<kaf> last supper
<DWROB> Well, I mean, expressed in and through the LAW, the Torah, as Jews call the first five books
<epsilon> the covenant
<vav> the eating of food and drinking of wine
<DWROB> Don't forget that Jesus is a Jewish teacher, commenting on the law.
<rho> obedience and entry into heaven
<chi> Genesis
<beta> the prophesies of the Old Testament came true
<eta> yes.. the bread and wine thing ... perhaps the washing of the feet too?
<DWROB> He is a rival of the Pharisees, who also interpret the law and apply it to new circumstances.
<epsilon> the last supper
<chi> but he tells them new ways to interpret the laws or changes them all together
<DWROB> So let's look at the Sermon on the mount, where he is in this teaching mode -- Jesus as itinerant rabbi
<DWROB> chi: that's what I want to look at
<aleph> Jesus is a teacher - but always shown as being very different from the Pharisees
<DWROB> The differences are somewhat exaggerate dint he telling
<DWROB> historically speaking
<psi> he gives them new ways to interpret things
<chi> good
<DWROB> here's the first quote:
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<DWROB> 17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come
<DWROB> to destroy, but to fulfill.
<DWROB> 18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall
<dalet> sometimes looked at as a cult back then
<DWROB> in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
<DWROB> 19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall
<DWROB> teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but
<DWROB> whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom
<DWROB> of heaven.
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 3 time(s).
<DWROB> Now that seems to be a pretty clear statement.
<mu> i agree
<beta> agreed
<bet> yep
<DWROB> However, Jesus goes on to do what looks like the exact opposite.
<gamma> yes
<kappa> yeah
<psi> yeah
<chi> he also contradicts himself sometimes
<DWROB> In the discussion of hatred, lust, etc.
<dalet> explain please
<rho> follow the commandments and reach heaven
<epsilon> very metaphoric
<epsilon> yes
<chi> exactly
<DWROB> Look at that first verse: what does "fulfill" mean?
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<beta> no, he doesn't abolish, he gives more detail - he is raising the bar so to speak
<vav> what does this mean? 32: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the
<iota> he just uses a lot of metaphors to get his point across
<dalet> come to pass
<beta> the prophesies
<beta> *prophesies
<bet> make it happen
<psi> shows the passage
<DWROB> no, he is talking about the LAW, not prophecy
<tau> fulfill the prophecies
<rho> God plan
<DWROB> how is the law to be "fulfilled"?
<sigma> accomplish
<bet> obeyed
<omicron> make sure they obey it?
<delta> to continue to abide by the laws
<beta> for them to obey
<eta> obey
<kappa> obeyed
<rho> gods plan
<tau> speak it and obey
<gamma> complete
<beta> live according to the word
<DWROB> Just obeyed? haven't people already been doing that for the most part?
<epsilon> by believing in him
<chi> he shall interpret it for them
<mu> learn
<bet> and teach others
<tau> teach others as well
<kaf> differences in interpretations of the law is why we have different religions
<sigma> obey
<DWROB> fulfilled means that something was lacking and now it will be supplied.
<psi> mostly
<beta> worship and spread the word
<kappa> better understood, and obeyed
<psi> to obey and teach
<omicron> what was lacking?
<DWROB> better understood -- OK, how?
<epsilon> ?
<psi> just like we talked about in other stories
<DWROB> omicron: I'm asking!
<bet> obey the law in your heart also
<dalet> so Jesus completed the prophesy
<DWROB> bet: good, but what does that mean?
<chi> live it and teach it
<chi> the teaching part
<rho> morals
<mu> their total understanding of the laws
<delta> living by it
<bet> want to obey the law
<psi> morale belief
<DWROB> rho: are laws and morals not the same?
<eta> an enforcer?
<mu> no
<rho> no
<beta> not always
<kappa> no
<beta> *always
<psi> laws are based on morals
<DWROB> no, not always
<DWROB> why not?
<DWROB> what's the difference?
<kappa> morals are like personal laws
<chi> he has come to lead them
<mu> laws are sometimes derived from morals
<bet> immoral law makers
<delta> your morals may differ from laws
<omicron> morals don't always match for everyone
<mu> but not all
<rho> just like religion is different from the us law
<chi> only some laws are based on morals
<beta> good way to put it xxxx
<epsilon> believe in him
<tau> can't some morals be bad? like a psych has different morals
<lamed> right or wrong = laws
<vav> it is not enough to just obey , you must also want to obey
<beta> laws are enforced, morals cannot
<kaf> people have differing sets of morals
<eta> moral is what is right an wrong ... what you just know and learn from living in the world and possessing feelings. Laws are written guidelines
<DWROB> How do you act morally as opposed to acting legally?
<tau> oops ... a psycho
<chi> people have different morals
<chi> most morals come from religion and should be separate from state
<bet> being nice
<psi> you have morale values
<psi> being honest
<rho> sometimes your belief may break the law
<bet> you don't have to be nice
<he> morality and legality can be different
<mu> honest i agree
<kaf> immoral- acting in a way that society does not except
<aleph> it's hard to be both - sometimes they conflict
<tau> i believe morality is above legality
<chi> acting morally is in the eye of the beholder
<delta> sometimes you may believe in something that doesn't obey the laws
<vav> you can't if your morals go against the law
<lamed> based on their society
<gamma> it's hard to draw a line
<psi> they conflict a lot
<kappa> morals can be totally different than the laws
<he> line in the sand?
<lamed> when keeping it real goes wrong
<iota> laws sometimes derive from morals
<DWROB> Remember: Judaism is a legalistic religion. There's the law, in great detail, and God expects you to obey it
<beta> or you could believe in something that isn't a law, just your belief
<DWROB> Do the commandments, follow the rituals
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<rho> like Islam
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<DWROB> That is how you fulfill the covenant
<epsilon> you can believe in one thing but that doesn't mean it is right legally
<dalet> but Jesus challenged the Jewish laws. that's why they didn't like him. pharisees
<delta> like the bread/body wine/blood
<eta> yes
<mu> commandments are the ultimate laws
<DWROB> dalet: he says he is not challenging the law, but fulfilling it
<epsilon> by following the rituals?
<DWROB> Lets look at an example.
<beta> the sacrifices
<rho> the commandments were not being followed as directed
<sigma> some people may break a written law, but still feel as if they are behaving morally
<sigma> they tend to
<dalet> right. but they looked at him as a challenge.
<dalet> think about the stoning of the woman
<psi> he was a threat
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 3 time(s).
<DWROB> 21: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and
<DWROB> whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
<DWROB> 22: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause
<DWROB> shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca,
<DWROB> shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in
<chi> but yet he changes the way so many of them are fulfilled
<DWROB> danger of hell fire.
<iota> i think that morals and laws were more closely related in those times
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 3 time(s).
<DWROB> he states the law, then he states this other thing -- that hatred is just as bad as murder. How can he say that?
<vav> a sin is a sin
<dalet> so he put more details into the laws
<psi> because you should love thy brother
<gamma> all sin is equal
<tau> because the law is murder and hatred is a moral
<DWROB> How can that be true? What has that got to do with the law itself about murder?
<aleph> because hatred in what leads to planned murder a lot of the time
<kappa> sin is immoral
<beta> because the first is a law, and the second should be a belief
<pi> its just as corrupting to the soul and separates you from God
<bet> gods law a sin is a sin
<delta> when you hate it is still sin
<epsilon> all sins are equal ... they are all sins
<chi> what is the difference between judgment for a murderer and hell fire if you call someone a fool?
<eta> he looks at all sins as equal
<psi> because you show hatred when you commit murder
<rho> your heart has murdered someone
<psi> and severe act of hatred
<DWROB> chi: Jesus says: NONE
<omicron> hatred is the reason for murder
<DWROB> rho: but what does that mean?
<lamed> some say hatred is death because the hated doesn't exist
<psi> you should show compassion
<kaf> the basis of the laws and morals are the same
<chi> hatred leads to murder
<mu> u have cast them out of your heart
<DWROB> How is this a "fulfillment" of the law?
<psi> if that was the case there would be no one left
<eta> it doesn't matter if you steal or murder someone ... he sees it as the same ... but our morals suggest killing someone is worse then stealing
<beta> by not turning the other cheek
<rho> it is the seeded planted in your heart that leads to murder
<DWROB> kaf: explain the common basis, then
<epsilon> that's a lesser stage of judgment ... the law is but to be judged by god is the worst
<psi> some don't see stealing as that wrong, but most see murder as wrong
<sigma> because one stems from the other
<beta> because not to murder is a law, and the not to hate should be a belief
<bet> hate is in the heart and murder is just an action of hate
<psi> morality and criminality
<DWROB> rho: NO! it's just as bad even if you don't commit the murder
<chi> it shows you what will help you from straying to the dark side
<DWROB> This is not a matter of cause and effect.
<kaf> ???
<rho> right that's what i meant
<eta> a sin is a sin! bottom line
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<kaf> yeah
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<psi> its a matter of whether you do on or the other you are just as bad
<beta> thank you xxxx
<chi> i don't get it
<sigma> a sin is a sin
<vav> me either
<DWROB> Well, how is this a fulfillment of the law? Show me the math by which he derives one form the other.
<gamma> 1 sin= 1 sin
<psi> so your saying the he felt that thinking about murder is just as bad a murder itself
<DWROB> How is he reading the commandment, "thou shalt not kill"?
<chi> well i hope that a rapist gets judged harder the a liar
<iota> hatred causes murder
<iota> ok
<bet> hate=sin murder=sin
<lamed> hatred can= death
<he> eye for an eye
<DWROB> iota: No!
<psi> eye=eye
<iota> not one is any worse than the other because they are both bad
<epsilon> yes
<DWROB> no no no
<iota> in gods eyes
<rho> if a person is turn out of ones life he is just as well dead
<dalet> DWROB, please explain
<mu> thou shall not take hat is not his
<eta> no?
<kappa> sin is sin regardless of how it is done
<DWROB> it's not a practical matter -- it doesn't make any difference if you actually do the murder, its still sin to hate -- why?
<mu> what
<iota> ok why then
<lamed> okay
<chi> you kill yourself by sinning
<rho> it goes against love thy neighbor
<DWROB> aha pp good ...
<pi> because hate corrupts your soul
<DWROB> how so?
<eta> because ... its brings negative thoughts
<dalet> because the hatred is in the soul
<aleph> because you have killed them in your heart
<psi> because one should love thy brother
<DWROB> aha -- good, I meant
<lamed> as thy self
<beta> b/c you are supposed to love your neighbor
<DWROB> psi: Bingo!
<eta> it makes you dwell in that thought ... takes your attention way from god ... ... ... ... .?
<chi> because if you sin you go to hell
<DWROB> But where is "love" in the original commandment?
<tau> so it boils down to "love ur neighbor as thyself"?
<epsilon> because you its in your heart
<DWROB> How did he get that from it?
<mu> love thy enemy
<chi> because murder is wrong and if you sin you are in effect murdering your soul
<kaf> Because God says so
<bet> love thy neighbor as thyself
<psi> God wins
<DWROB> tau: that is the law and prophets, he says -- meaning what?
<mu> his father
<delta> love originated as first covenant
<eta> i don't know
<vav> because God so loved the world that ...
<gamma> the commandments have a relationship with another
<epsilon> that's the bottom line one shall love thy brother, it will be no other way because that's a sin
<DWROB> OK -- an idiot looks at the commandment and says, "I haven't killed anyone, therefore I am virtuous.
<chi> isn't that also a commandment?
<DWROB> What is Jesus saying instead?
<mu> he is actually telling them not to do the opposite of what he wants them to do
<dalet> the pharisees were too much on outer appearances
<eta> don't murder
<bet> you should have love for everyone
<kappa> Killing is not the only sin
<aleph> one sin is just as bad as murder - another sin
<delta> be perfect
<pi> you have to be virtuous of the heart
<lamed> hatred is killing
<dalet> don't be so self righteous
<lamed> a sin is a sin
<kaf> Your heart must be pure
<vav> the sins are equal
<DWROB> But perfection is not a matter of fulfilling the letter of the law -- you have to follow the PRINCIPLE or spirit behind the law
<bet> not only good in action but also in thought
<DWROB> which is ... Love
<chi> that that is just one extreme
<mu> u cant love them and hate them at the same time
<beta> ok, that makes sense
<gamma> ok
<DWROB> Instead of legalism, we now have morality, as some of you were saying
<epsilon> love
<DWROB> He is insisting that we understand the law in a new way
<mu> and love is a moral law
<dalet> u made me think the morals thing was wrong
<iota> oh ok
<iota> now I see
<tau> Beatles were right ... all u need is love
<kappa> Better understanding
<delta> what new way?
<chi> what does this have to do with history?
<DWROB> a lot!
<sigma> having the evil inside to consider committing a sin should hold some punishment as well
<DWROB> quote --
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 3 time(s).
<eta> historical literature
<psi> anyone know what chapter talks about the last supper
<DWROB> 23: Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy
<DWROB> brother hath ought against thee;
<epsilon> oh i understand it better now
<DWROB> 24: Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy
<DWROB> brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 2 time(s).
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<DWROB> What is the point of this?
<dalet> have forgiveness in your heart
<DWROB> be precise -- look what it says
<kappa> love and forgiveness
<tau> forgive
<beta> last supper = chpt 26
<sigma> so that is how you could not be virtuous and never have committed an actual sin
<he> humm
<mu> yes forgive
<chi> chapter 26ish
<delta> forgive and even if someone wrongs you bless them anyway
<rho> forgive
<vav> make peace before you offer the offering..it will be better received
<epsilon> always have forgiveness
<rho> no grudges
<mu> always love them no mater what
<bet> you have to offer up a gift in order to be forgiven
<DWROB> What is the value of the ritual in this view?
<lamed> as god can forgive, we can
<eta> a clean slate?
<vav> forgive and you shall be forgiven
<kappa> always be willing to forgive
<omicron> love your enemies
<DWROB> What is Jesus saying about the Jewish ritual law?
<chi> if you know you need to fix something go ahead and fix it
<bet> you have to have death before you can be forgiven in life
<rho> to publicly show forgiveness
<epsilon> there will be no sin in you
<iota> forgiveness is a virtue
<delta> gifts are offered
<DWROB> is he for it or against it?
<iota> god forgives so many for their sins that we should too
<gamma> we are expected to show the same forgiveness God shows
<sigma> you must forgive internally before you outwardly show forgiveness
<DWROB> sigma: Exactly
<dalet> forget the animal sacrificing
<DWROB> the ritual is a SYMBOL of something, not an end in itself.
<he> forgive to be forgiven
<dalet> sacrifice by loving
<delta> ongoing?
<DWROB> A foolish person sees only the surface, the ritual, and misses the point of it
<kaf> against- the ritual may be pretend
<DWROB> right
<chi> to cleanse
<chi> that it doesn't fix anything that you have to do that
<DWROB> All right -- questions so far?
<kappa> Outward appearances can be wrong, it is important to actually feel well and forgiving
<bet> nope
<kaf> when a person is truly fulfilled he will live in righteous - all aspects of his life and not for show
<lamed> from the heart
<dalet> what's the point in being ritualistic if you only do it for outward appearances
<theta> yeah, really?
<DWROB> This is a profound innovation -- he is saying that we must think morally, imagine other people as human beings, not just follow a recipe for virtue
<kaf> some people do many things for appearances
<chi> there is no point
<iota> i know now
<vav> Will you explain this passage to me. 5:32
<DWROB> righteousness is a state of mind, of the spirit, not the sum of outward actions
<bet> he is saying we should not just do what we are told but we should want to
<lamed> premeditation vs impulse?
<DWROB> vav: save it for after
<vav> ok
<DWROB> bet: he is saying that being a godly person is more than just following directions -- there has to be love as well.
<DWROB> It is a very hard lesson for people to absorb, isn't it?
<bet> exactly
<kaf> like praying in silent instead of streaming a prayer out loud, repeating the same things,
<vav> yes
<delta> yes yes yes
<kappa> yes it
<he> yeah you can't be forced into love you know
<yod> easier said than done
<DWROB> Are people really *up to* absorbing it?
<psi> yes it does
<beta> exactly xxxx
<DWROB> Can people do this??
<chi> people are still struggling with it
<psi> yes they can
<kappa> possible
<vav> yes
<DWROB> How can they be taught to do this?
<yod> daily struggle for me
<delta> with vigilance
<he> yeah i believe you can learn to love
<bet> no not completely no-one is perfect
<kaf> some can--
<rho> they can through examples
<beta> pray and believe
<gamma> no because they are not perfect
<chi> no
<psi> i don't think i could
<epsilon> yes
<tau> i do not believe its possible
<kaf> You must be sure of your beliefs and desires
<DWROB> This brings us to the second topic tonight -- The Parables
<vav> by the way you raise your children
<eta> they have to be willing
<DWROB> Why does Jesus teach in parables?
<chi> people are selfish my nature
<bet> its easier to understand
<iota> through prayer
<kappa> so everyone better understands
<rho> so the people can relate
<delta> stories are better ways to learn
<aleph> it's easier for people to understand without being blunt
<kaf> To better explain
<eta> to give a real life-like example
<dalet> it gets his point across better
<tau> you remember parables
<he> easier to understand
<yod> the stories give a lesson
<iota> to make people have to understand what he is saying
<vav> examples?
<gamma> to help explain
<eta> to connect with he listener
<DWROB> Are you saying that a parable is easier to understand than the 10 commandments?
<beta> no
<sigma> so one has to work harder to actually know of what is being spoken
<rho> no
<psi> no i disagree
<yod> no
<chi> to show that is can be done by normal people
<chi> the people can relate to it
<aleph> they are easier to swallow
<bet> no
<DWROB> relate == understand
<he> no he teaches to help with understanding
<eta> no, but it applies it to actual life
<delta> yes in some ways because it gives examples of situations
<rho> a person must think
<epsilon> to relate easier
<epsilon> to put in the context of how you want to see i
<epsilon> tt
<kappa> no, but to the common people that may not understand as well
<tau> no ... but a visualistic story is easy to remember
<lamed> show examples
<chi> yes
<sigma> this helps you to remember
<kaf> different people relate to different things -- he wants to reach as may as possible
<gamma> it helps put it into application
<DWROB> I don't know about that ...
<iota> also so that the people will have to make what they want of what he says
<iota> so they can see it their own way
<chi> they do into more detail
<DWROB> the running theme seems to be how HARD it is for people to understand the parables
<DWROB> even the disciples don't get them
<vav> i agree
<dalet> really?
<bet> does it say that?
<DWROB> They pretend they do, and then after the crowd goes away, they ask Jesus what he meant
<beta> that's true
<rho> many questioned
<kappa> I agree
<beta> yep
<bet> oh
<DWROB> Which exasperates Jesus !
<lamed> creates a vivid pic
<epsilon> but that makes them look more in depth
<beta> all the time
<eta> ahhh crazy
<chi> why teach in a way people cant understand?
<DWROB> Exactly the question!
<eta> man.. so did the crowd understand i wonder..
<aleph> maybe when they run across something in the story in their own lives, they will suddenly understand
<bet> i understood
<psi> makes no sense
<lamed> some didn't get get till he left
<DWROB> What's going on here?
<dalet> so they can ask questions
<sigma> how can they be useful if people don't understand them?
<bet> most of the time
<DWROB> Indeed -- how?
<psi> so they can learn
<kappa> trying to confuse them
<dalet> a person will want to probe more
<epsilon> to put it into their own context ... how ever they wanted to absorb what he said
<bet> it s like when someone gives an example it is easier
<kappa> the more you ask the better you understand something
<chi> Jesus is showing off
<DWROB> What does a traditional moral teacher tell his pupils?
<sigma> to keep open trains of thought flowing
<psi> learn from your mistakes
<rho> learn from your heart
<psi> just keep learning
<DWROB> no, no, I mean when people teach morality , how do they usually try to do it?
<delta> condition perfectionism first
<bet> by example
<kappa> giving examples
<psi> they try and show a perfect figure
<chi> ?
<eta> stories ...
<rho> epic stories
<DWROB> But also by listing commandments
<he> lecture
<psi> someone who is morality correct
<DWROB> lecture!
<sigma> to question him and keep up a discussion
<DWROB> commandments!
<he> joke
<delta> so he listed commandments then based them upon parables?
<chi> lead my example
<DWROB> What Jesus does is different -- he tells these weird stories
<epsilon> that anything else is wrong
<chi> scare people with hell
<lamed> interactively
<kaf> extreme stories
<DWROB> what is the benefit here? We KNOW that some people will not understand
<sigma> in an open discussion, by giving examples, role play
<DWROB> in fact, there are parables about that, too
<sigma> perhaps to capture the attention of his listeners?
<DWROB> role playing is interesting -- that gets close to it
<chi> people are more likely to remember if its weird
<delta> those who understand can pass it on to those who don
<rho> others will explain the parable, passing the word
<kappa> These stories make you actually think about it to try to comprehend
<tau> what could possibly be the benefit of telling stories no on understands? to make your self look better or something?
<psi> its much easier to remember with examples
<DWROB> Remember how morality was defined a second ago
<rho> people will be come teachers
<DWROB> what are these stories requiring of you?
<beta> to believe
<epsilon> others will talk about the weird stories, things that are uncommon seem to stick in the mind better
<tau> to think
<bet> to obey
<delta> think
<DWROB> to think about what, how?
<yod> to listen really and compare them to your own experiences
<eta> to understand
<DWROB> yes
<DWROB> good
<iota> i think so too
<dalet> they stay on your mind longer. ask more questions
<lamed> think on ur actions
<epsilon> that seeing isn't believing, believing is seeing
<chi> most people are too lazy to figure it out themselves
<DWROB> to apply the law, to interpret -- to think like we think in a literature class! not to be literal and simple minded
<sigma> spreading the word, people will want to tell more people about these elaborate stories because they are so interesting
<DWROB> to use imagination -- moral imagination
<chi> your life in the way Jesus sees it
<DWROB> yes
<rho> think outside the box
<kaf> the definitions of commandments are broaden because people will interpret what Jesus says differently
<gamma> apply it to your own life
<DWROB> in other words, he is not telling people to follow rules, but to find for themselves the principle behind the rules -- not intellectually, but in their action toward others
<chi> it doesn't seem to me that he want people to be that open minded
<rho> these parables apply to life years to come
<psi> to look for there own meaning behind them
<DWROB> It's a very tough thing to learn, as we noted.
<chi> he doesn't even ask people to free their servants
<theta> he's telling people that the answers are out there for themselves to find
<he> could that be like how your parents teach you manners and what have you
<DWROB> chi: he does tell them to leave all their possessions and follow him, though
<beta> principles that lead to morals
<dalet> he wanted people to be very open minded
<he> some people never learn them I guess that could be considered hard for some
<theta> but he's not going to outright tell them, because they must discover it for themselves
<mu> people sometimes spend their whole lives trying figure out
<DWROB> So what about the people that don't get it?
<sigma> people will make connections between what they have pulled from the parables and soon a theme forms
<iota> understand
<beta> the have to have faith
<delta> they sin
<vav> they are confused ... like me
<DWROB> heh
<bet> do they not want to understand
<theta> they're "lost" ... they don't get to go to the "kingdom of heaven"
<DWROB> right!
<chi> see contradictions in his own actions
<eta> oh man
<rho> they must open their mind and heart
<DWROB> morality is thinking in this loving way -- not anything else
<DWROB> not everyone can do it, and that's the way it goes.
<sigma> they will either sin more frequently or just try to copy others
<DWROB> so to speak
<DWROB> Makes me sound like a Calvinist ...
<chi> everyone in today's world is screwed then
<theta> haha
<DWROB> then too, always
<tau> basically
<psi> it does
<DWROB> Now, topic three ...
<DWROB> "the kingdom of heaven"
<chi> predestined to go to heaven?
<DWROB> we hear about this in parable after parable
<DWROB> what is the Kingdom of Heaven?
<theta> ... mentioned 50 something times
<delta> eternal bliss
<theta> it's the place our soul goes after death
<beta> eternal life
<kaf> Where God lives
<tau> where God is
<rho> life with God
<eta> the good place
<he> ahhhhhh
<theta> god's kingdom
<tau> happiness
<DWROB> what;s the address?
<psi> where god lives
<bet> a place were people who obey with heart go
<chi> it would take the fun out of it if we knew
<dalet> eternity
<kappa> happiness
<vav> the right side of God
<eta> state f mind
<theta> in another realm ... or possibly a state of mind ... or the absence thereof
<rho> the place the soul can go
<DWROB> aha!
<epsilon> life after death
<lamed> ohhh
<DWROB> You have it -- both meanings apply in different cases
<chi> heaven is what you imagine it to be
<psi> your final place
<kaf> where you want to be
<DWROB> 1. the afterlife
<dalet> which meanings
<DWROB> 2. a state of mind and spirit here on earth
<DWROB> both
<dalet> ok
<psi> ok
<DWROB> #2 is consistent with the emphasis on morality I have been pursuing
<DWROB> Let's look at some examples
<chi> how can you be sure?
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 4 time(s).
<DWROB> 24: Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is
<DWROB> likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
<DWROB> 25: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and
<DWROB> went his way.
<DWROB> 26: But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the
<DWROB> tares also.
<DWROB> 27: So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou
<DWROB> sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
<DWROB> 28: He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him,
<DWROB> Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
<DWROB> 29: But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat
<DWROB> with them.
<DWROB> 30: Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to
<DWROB> the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn
<DWROB> them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<DWROB> chi: by reading and interpreting!
<DWROB> what is the kingdom of heaven in this case?
<tau> a barn?
<beta> forgiveness
<psi> no clue
<DWROB> try harder!
<chi> working with someone who needs help/afeild
<dalet> a place where souls of good harvest go
<aleph> doing good being invited to be with god
<DWROB> a barn? no
<bet> place were the son of man went
<tau> a place with no evil (tares)
<DWROB> tares are weeds (evil)
<bet> reward
<delta> good harvest meaning good life meaning go to heaven
<DWROB> OK, so it's the afterlife?
<bet> the field
<gamma> a place of perfection
<kappa> where evil is separated and burned in a fiery pit
<dalet> sounds like it
<beta> yes, afterlife
<lamed> reap what u sew
<DWROB> But what is the actual lesson of the parable?
<rho> their sense of heaven
<epsilon> a farm
<DWROB> you have good people and bad people -- fine, that's not news
<vav> the bad shall burn
<chi> the harvest
<aleph> at the right time, the evil will be taken away and the good will be rewarded
<tau> the bad go to hell
<DWROB> what does the servant want to do?
<bet> i didn't see a lesson except don't be a bad weed
<dalet> bad people will always be in the mist or influence, but in the end, their true ways will be shown.
<kappa> in the end bad and good are separated and the bad is doomed
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<dalet> they will reap their reward.
<eta> yes ... good people get good things
<pi> the good and the evil grow together and they will not be separated until the reapers come harvest time
<DWROB> bet: Oh, there';s a lesson
<chi> or life on earth
<chi> it could go both ways
<chi> good one
<tau> get rid of the evil
<aleph> wants to try to separate the good from the bad to soon to tell the difference
<epsilon> let the good and bad grow together and when the time is right evil will be taken away
<bet> don't sleep
<dalet> do not be revengeful
<DWROB> aleph: right -- and what does the master say?
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<kappa> if you try to pull the bad away too soon some good will go bad or go too
<DWROB> dalet: good
<rho> it must be carried out all the time
<eta> the bad will get whats coming
<delta> weed out the bad ones
<DWROB> how should we deal with the evil people?
<tau> the master says not yet ... ..
<lamed> only the good crop can be used but the bad can b saved
<bet> don't judge
<DWROB> delta: no, not us
<DWROB> bet: right
<rho> don't judge
<DWROB> leave it to God
<aleph> he wants to wait to be sure
<pi> we wont deal with them
<he> let him be the judge
<sigma> harvest
<chi> burn the evil in hell
<rho> only God shall judge
<DWROB> so in other words there is a clear moral message here, a message for the here and now, involving love
<lamed> turn the other cheek
<DWROB> haha -- tricked you! you thought it was just heaven!
<rho> good
<epsilon> there will always be evil mixed in but in the end god will know the truth
<gamma> we should be responsible for ourselves
<DWROB> another example ... .
<chi> yes
<pi> haha
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<DWROB>
Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<DWROB> 44: Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which
<DWROB> when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he
<DWROB> hath, and buyeth that field.
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<sigma> hahahahahaha
<chi> no i said it was heaven and earth
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<DWROB> #1 or #2?
<DWROB> xxxx -- OK, I was just kidding
<dalet> i was totally disconnected
<DWROB> #1 or #2?
<chi> i know
<DWROB> This is short but harder. What does it mean?
<chi> this one is more earth then heaven
<chi> because he is buying "heaven"
<epsilon> ????
<bet> DWROB is that king James
<DWROB> yes
<aleph> 1
<DWROB> chi: I think so -- what does it mean then about life here on earth?
<mu> rewards
<dalet> the kingdom of heaven is that precious
<delta> heaven is a treasure in itself
<sigma> uno
<epsilon> that everything you've ever done will be traded in as the price it pays to get into heaven
<chi> he finds his heaven and gives up all his earthly possessions to buy it, but he doesn't share it
<psi> the rewards
<bet> ok he tells others about his field so others can go there ie. heaven
<DWROB> yes, it can be real either way -- also as rejection of material life in anticipation of heaven
<eta> you have to give everything up ... you cant take anything with you.
<vav> that you cant buy your way into heaven
<mu> sacrifices
<chi> the fact that he tells no one gets me
<chi> if you find heaven shouldn't you tell people
<DWROB> odd, isn;t it?
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 3 time(s).
<DWROB> 1: Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took
<DWROB> their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
<lamed> priceless sacrifices ie love
<DWROB> 2: And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
<DWROB> 3: They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
<DWROB> 4: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
<DWROB> 5: While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
<DWROB> 6: And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye
<DWROB> out to meet him.
<DWROB> 7: Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
<DWROB> 8: And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone
<DWROB> out.
<chi> yes
<DWROB> 9: But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you:
<DWROB> but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
<DWROB> 10: And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready
<DWROB> went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
<DWROB> 11: Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
<DWROB> 12: But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
<DWROB> 13: Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of
<DWROB> man cometh.
<DWROB>
<psi> yes
<DWROB>
<DWROB>
<DWROB> one more -- the wise and foolish virgins
<chi> i was going to ask you about this one which i totally missed the point of, is there only one bridegroom?
<DWROB> yes, the bridegroom is singular
<DWROB> go figure
<pi> always be prepared for judgment because you never know when your gonna die
<DWROB> figure
<DWROB> yes!
<DWROB> good
<dalet> be ready at all times for the coming of the son of man?
<psi> you will never be prepared
<DWROB> so what is the kingdom of heaven here?
<bet> the bridegroom
<pi> the room with the bridegroom
<Anon4322> you should always be prepared
<he> within yourself
<delta> no one knows the time so be prepared
<DWROB> he: how so?
<chi> sex
<aleph> be on your best behavior at all times because you never know
<DWROB> bah!
<psi> like Santa clause says
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<pi> the foolish virgins weren't prepared on earth so they didn't get into heaven
<he> you must be prepared and your the one preparing yourself for salvation
<DWROB> aleph: that sort of combines both meanings, doesn't it?
<chi> this is like the boy scout honeymoon moral
<DWROB> pi:good
<DWROB> chi: I am afraid to ask ...
<he> ha
<psi> me too
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<chi> "always be prepared"
<epsilon> you never know when something may happened..
<DWROB> OK, the point I wanted to make is the kind of innovation in moral and religious thinking that Jesus is making in relation to the Jewish tradition.
<DWROB> I think I have done it.
<DWROB> Questions?
<psi> nope
<gamma> nope
<bet> nah
<dalet> no
<eta> nope
<beta> not at all
<chi> never mind
<mu> nope
<DWROB> chi: aha
<DWROB> We are done!
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<DWROB> be prepared, indeed
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<sigma> hang ten
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<rho> goodnite
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<DWROB> as Strong Bad says, "It's Over!!!"
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<eta> later
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<vav> Can you explain this one thing to be before you go.
<DWROB> I can try
<vav> 5:32
<DWROB> 31: It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a
<DWROB> writing of divorcement:
<DWROB> 32: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the
<DWROB> cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry
<DWROB> her that is divorced committeth adultery.
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 1 time(s).
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<DWROB> Looks like he is saying: work it out. Love, love, love.
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<DWROB> And of course he is pretty soft on adulterers, too -- famously.
<vav> if someone marry a woman who is divorced he has already committed adultery?
<DWROB> so to break the marriage up is a bad thing, and to make the woman seek another man is its bad consequence.
<DWROB> It depends how literally you take this.
<DWROB> The point seems to be not to divorce for light or trivial reasons
<DWROB> the fornication part looks to me like exaggeration to make a point
<vav> it says it twice and i did not get it the first time
<DWROB> but that's just my reading of it
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<vav> I get it a little better now ... thanks.
<DWROB> I think if you take Jesus literally you don't get too far -- the guy is talking in parables, after all
<DWROB> You have to be a little bit more nimble!
<vav> it is hard to understand
<DWROB> yes
<DWROB> deliberately hard
<vav> and if you don't understand then you are not going to heaven according to Matthew.
<DWROB> there is no substitute for being a moral loving person
<DWROB> and here is how you do it (basically)
<DWROB> seems harsh, but it is also quite matter of fact
<vav> yes
<vav> Thank you
<DWROB> I hope that helps -- bear in mind ...
<DWROB> I am reading this as a literary critic, not according to some sectarian belief
<DWROB> So distrust me accordingly
<vav> that i do understand
<vav> just trying to get a better picture of it all
<DWROB> OK
<vav> Thanks again ... goodnight
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