Chat: ENGL 2111 (World Literature I) Winter 2005

Chat 10: Gospel of Matthew

Gospel of Matthew

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[19:58] <upsilon> Dr. Rob, is there anyway that we can find out what our grade is in this class? If we have passed every quiz, does that mean we have a A for the quiz portion of the grade even though some of them may have bee retakes?

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[19:59] <DWROB> upsilon: correct

[20:00] <upsilon> thanks

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[20:01] <beta> what about our forum grades?

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[20:01] <DWROB> if you post every week, it's an A, and downhill from there.

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[20:02] <DWROB> Are people experiencing shorter wait times to connect to the channel?

[20:02] <pi> so if you missed a week is that a B?

[20:02] <rho> yes, shorter time

[20:02] <omicron> sometimes i am

[20:02] <DWROB> no, thee is a little wiggle room, but miss three and it definitely pulls the grade down

[20:02] <chi> do we still get credit if we answer the forum questions after the chat?

[20:02] <chi> yes

[20:03] <omicron> but sometimes it wont let me connect at all

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[20:03] <DWROB> I have a new firewalling arrangement, and it seems to have helped connection speed.

[20:03] <iota> DWROB did you get my email with my test on it?

[20:03] <DWROB> Yes!

[20:04] <DWROB> OK, we need to start.

[20:04] <DWROB> Put this text in context -- how does ti surprise you after having read the other material this term?

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[20:04] <beta> definitely not the same type of stuff

[20:04] <dalet> doesn't

[20:04] <iota> I already knew something about the reading

[20:05] <sigma> no

[20:05] <kappa> it is not really surprising

[20:05] <omicron> i already had background on it

[20:05] <tau> I have already read it

[20:05] <epsilon> very different

[20:05] <aleph> there is no pride found in the reading

[20:05] <sigma> it was a lot more informative

[20:05] <gamma> not surprising

[20:05] <omicron> so it seems a lot more familiar

[20:05] <DWROB> You haven't read it this way, though.

[20:05] <pi> its difficult to try and change my perspective on Matthew

[20:05] <delta> different

[20:05] <mu> very much different from the rest

[20:05] <dalet> humility

[20:05] <DWROB> Different how?

[20:05] <beta> not the same story

[20:05] <lamed> I learned It in school but i reread it

[20:06] <theta> it was written persuasively

[20:06] <delta> I'm not really sure but I know it is the same in the aspect of leadership

[20:06] <eta> the way its told ... it has people int he story telling stories

[20:06] <lamed> gave historical back ground

[20:06] <kappa> Jesus didn't have a flaw

[20:06] <DWROB> My emphasis in this discussion will be on the wisdom portions, not the narrative portions.

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[20:06] <mu> it has quotes

[20:06] <DWROB> This is because the wisdom stuff relates in an interesting way to the prior literature of the Hebrew Bible

[20:07] <dalet> very humbling

[20:07] <aleph> every story had a reason behind telling it - something to learn

[20:07] <beta> yep

[20:07] <DWROB> If you read my lecture notes, you should know what is distinctive about this Gospel.

[20:07] <chi> it wasn't as concerned with what the audience thought of the writing as far as a piece goes

[20:07] <chi> they were just trying to put a message out there

[20:07] <chi> these people knew every detail of every interaction they ever had with Jesus

[20:07] <chi> a book of morals

[20:07] <iota> I really did enjoy this reading it was easier to understand than the others

[20:07] <eta> and lessons

[20:07] <DWROB> chi: to whom?

[20:08] <sigma> a longer emphasis on the morals and guidelines for living

[20:08] <beta> MT was very interested in showing how Old Testament prophesies came true

[20:08] <epsilon> they knew all the details

[20:08] <DWROB> what's the primary audience?

[20:08] <kaf> Jews

[20:08] <beta> Jews

[20:08] <gamma> the literal translation cannot be seen by the words in the text

[20:08] <omicron> Jews?

[20:08] <DWROB> Precisely

[20:08] <kappa> Jews

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[20:08] <mem> Jews

[20:08] <delta> Jews

[20:08] <chi> i read the notes, but couldn't remember the time line

[20:08] <rho> future generations

[20:08] <mem> Jews

[20:08] <DWROB> that's why the Jewish prophecy is mentioned

[20:08] <DWROB> nobody else would have cared about that

[20:08] <epsilon> Jews

[20:08] <psi> Jews

[20:08] <lamed> the Jews

[20:08] <DWROB> Also the genealogy

[20:08] <iota> to people who want to become better in the eyes of God?

[20:08] <DWROB> genealogy

[20:09] <chi> the middle class

[20:09] <chi> not the poor

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[20:09] <sigma> Jews

[20:09] <DWROB> Of course it is read by other people, but Jews are the main audience, the original intended audience

[20:09] <psi> this is the King James version

[20:09] <DWROB> And what is the defining aspect of the Jewish religion?

[20:09] <DWROB> How is it distinctive?

[20:09] <delta> monotheism

[20:09] <chi> i wondered where the prophecies kept coming from

[20:09] <rho> the covenant

[20:09] <kaf> covenants

[20:09] <eta> covenant?

[20:09] <gamma> monotheism

[20:09] <DWROB> Yes and yes

[20:09] <psi> the covenant

[20:10] <dalet> the covenant

[20:10] <DWROB> A covenant with is expressed in ... .?

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[20:10] <chi> they believe a profit will return

[20:10] <kappa> Genesis

[20:10] <dalet> last supper

[20:10] <beta> covenants and monotheism

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[20:10] <gamma> reward for obedience

[20:10] <psi> last supper

[20:10] <delta> last supper

[20:10] <lamed> the story of Jesus Christ as the savior

[20:10] <kaf> last supper

[20:10] <DWROB> Well, I mean, expressed in and through the LAW, the Torah, as Jews call the first five books

[20:10] <epsilon> the covenant

[20:10] <vav> the eating of food and drinking of wine

[20:11] <DWROB> Don't forget that Jesus is a Jewish teacher, commenting on the law.

[20:11] <rho> obedience and entry into heaven

[20:11] <chi> Genesis

[20:11] <beta> the prophesies of the Old Testament came true

[20:11] <eta> yes.. the bread and wine thing ... perhaps the washing of the feet too?

[20:11] <DWROB> He is a rival of the Pharisees, who also interpret the law and apply it to new circumstances.

[20:11] <epsilon> the last supper

[20:11] <chi> but he tells them new ways to interpret the laws or changes them all together

[20:12] <DWROB> So let's look at the Sermon on the mount, where he is in this teaching mode -- Jesus as itinerant rabbi

[20:12] <DWROB> chi: that's what I want to look at

[20:12] <aleph> Jesus is a teacher - but always shown as being very different from the Pharisees

[20:12] <DWROB> The differences are somewhat exaggerate dint he telling

[20:12] <DWROB> historically speaking

[20:12] <psi> he gives them new ways to interpret things

[20:12] <chi> good

[20:13] <DWROB> here's the first quote:

[20:13] <DWROB>

[20:13] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:13] <DWROB> 17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come

[20:13] <DWROB> to destroy, but to fulfill.

[20:13] <DWROB> 18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall

[20:13] <dalet> sometimes looked at as a cult back then

[20:13] <DWROB> in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

[20:13] <DWROB> 19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall

[20:13] <DWROB> teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but

[20:13] <DWROB> whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom

[20:13] <DWROB> of heaven.

[20:13] <DWROB>

[20:13] Last message repeated 3 time(s).

[20:13] <DWROB> Now that seems to be a pretty clear statement.

[20:13] <mu> i agree

[20:13] <beta> agreed

[20:13] <bet> yep

[20:13] <DWROB> However, Jesus goes on to do what looks like the exact opposite.

[20:13] <gamma> yes

[20:13] <kappa> yeah

[20:13] <psi> yeah

[20:13] <chi> he also contradicts himself sometimes

[20:13] <DWROB> In the discussion of hatred, lust, etc.

[20:14] <dalet> explain please

[20:14] <rho> follow the commandments and reach heaven

[20:14] <epsilon> very metaphoric

[20:14] <epsilon> yes

[20:14] <chi> exactly

[20:14] <DWROB> Look at that first verse: what does "fulfill" mean?

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[20:14] <beta> no, he doesn't abolish, he gives more detail - he is raising the bar so to speak

[20:14] <vav> what does this mean? 32: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the

[20:14] <iota> he just uses a lot of metaphors to get his point across

[20:14] <dalet> come to pass

[20:14] <beta> the prophesies

[20:14] <beta> *prophesies

[20:14] <bet> make it happen

[20:14] <psi> shows the passage

[20:14] <DWROB> no, he is talking about the LAW, not prophecy

[20:15] <tau> fulfill the prophecies

[20:15] <rho> God plan

[20:15] <DWROB> how is the law to be "fulfilled"?

[20:15] <sigma> accomplish

[20:15] <bet> obeyed

[20:15] <omicron> make sure they obey it?

[20:15] <delta> to continue to abide by the laws

[20:15] <beta> for them to obey

[20:15] <eta> obey

[20:15] <kappa> obeyed

[20:15] <rho> gods plan

[20:15] <tau> speak it and obey

[20:15] <gamma> complete

[20:15] <beta> live according to the word

[20:15] <DWROB> Just obeyed? haven't people already been doing that for the most part?

[20:15] <epsilon> by believing in him

[20:15] <chi> he shall interpret it for them

[20:15] <mu> learn

[20:15] <bet> and teach others

[20:15] <tau> teach others as well

[20:15] <kaf> differences in interpretations of the law is why we have different religions

[20:15] <sigma> obey

[20:15] <DWROB> fulfilled means that something was lacking and now it will be supplied.

[20:15] <psi> mostly

[20:15] <beta> worship and spread the word

[20:15] <kappa> better understood, and obeyed

[20:15] <psi> to obey and teach

[20:16] <omicron> what was lacking?

[20:16] <DWROB> better understood -- OK, how?

[20:16] <epsilon> ?

[20:16] <psi> just like we talked about in other stories

[20:16] <DWROB> omicron: I'm asking!

[20:16] <bet> obey the law in your heart also

[20:16] <dalet> so Jesus completed the prophesy

[20:16] <DWROB> bet: good, but what does that mean?

[20:16] <chi> live it and teach it

[20:16] <chi> the teaching part

[20:16] <rho> morals

[20:16] <mu> their total understanding of the laws

[20:16] <delta> living by it

[20:16] <bet> want to obey the law

[20:16] <psi> morale belief

[20:16] <DWROB> rho: are laws and morals not the same?

[20:16] <eta> an enforcer?

[20:16] <mu> no

[20:16] <rho> no

[20:16] <beta> not always

[20:17] <kappa> no

[20:17] <beta> *always

[20:17] <psi> laws are based on morals

[20:17] <DWROB> no, not always

[20:17] <DWROB> why not?

[20:17] <DWROB> what's the difference?

[20:17] <kappa> morals are like personal laws

[20:17] <chi> he has come to lead them

[20:17] <mu> laws are sometimes derived from morals

[20:17] <bet> immoral law makers

[20:17] <delta> your morals may differ from laws

[20:17] <omicron> morals don't always match for everyone

[20:17] <mu> but not all

[20:17] <rho> just like religion is different from the us law

[20:17] <chi> only some laws are based on morals

[20:17] <beta> good way to put it xxxx

[20:17] <epsilon> believe in him

[20:17] <tau> can't some morals be bad? like a psych has different morals

[20:17] <lamed> right or wrong = laws

[20:17] <vav> it is not enough to just obey , you must also want to obey

[20:17] <beta> laws are enforced, morals cannot

[20:18] <kaf> people have differing sets of morals

[20:18] <eta> moral is what is right an wrong ... what you just know and learn from living in the world and possessing feelings. Laws are written guidelines

[20:18] <DWROB> How do you act morally as opposed to acting legally?

[20:18] <tau> oops ... a psycho

[20:18] <chi> people have different morals

[20:18] <chi> most morals come from religion and should be separate from state

[20:18] <bet> being nice

[20:18] <psi> you have morale values

[20:18] <psi> being honest

[20:18] <rho> sometimes your belief may break the law

[20:18] <bet> you don't have to be nice

[20:18] <he> morality and legality can be different

[20:18] <mu> honest i agree

[20:18] <kaf> immoral- acting in a way that society does not except

[20:18] <aleph> it's hard to be both - sometimes they conflict

[20:18] <tau> i believe morality is above legality

[20:18] <chi> acting morally is in the eye of the beholder

[20:18] <delta> sometimes you may believe in something that doesn't obey the laws

[20:18] <vav> you can't if your morals go against the law

[20:18] <lamed> based on their society

[20:18] <gamma> it's hard to draw a line

[20:18] <psi> they conflict a lot

[20:19] <kappa> morals can be totally different than the laws

[20:19] <he> line in the sand?

[20:19] <lamed> when keeping it real goes wrong

[20:19] <iota> laws sometimes derive from morals

[20:19] <DWROB> Remember: Judaism is a legalistic religion. There's the law, in great detail, and God expects you to obey it

[20:19] <beta> or you could believe in something that isn't a law, just your belief

[20:19] <DWROB> Do the commandments, follow the rituals

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[20:19] <rho> like Islam

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[20:19] <DWROB> That is how you fulfill the covenant

[20:19] <epsilon> you can believe in one thing but that doesn't mean it is right legally

[20:19] <dalet> but Jesus challenged the Jewish laws. that's why they didn't like him. pharisees

[20:19] <delta> like the bread/body wine/blood

[20:19] <eta> yes

[20:20] <mu> commandments are the ultimate laws

[20:20] <DWROB> dalet: he says he is not challenging the law, but fulfilling it

[20:20] <epsilon> by following the rituals?

[20:20] <DWROB> Lets look at an example.

[20:20] <beta> the sacrifices

[20:20] <rho> the commandments were not being followed as directed

[20:20] <sigma> some people may break a written law, but still feel as if they are behaving morally

[20:20] <sigma> they tend to

[20:20] <dalet> right. but they looked at him as a challenge.

[20:20] <dalet> think about the stoning of the woman

[20:20] <psi> he was a threat

[20:20] <DWROB>

[20:20] Last message repeated 3 time(s).

[20:20] <DWROB> 21: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and

[20:20] <DWROB> whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

[20:20] <DWROB> 22: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause

[20:20] <DWROB> shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca,

[20:20] <DWROB> shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in

[20:20] <chi> but yet he changes the way so many of them are fulfilled

[20:20] <DWROB> danger of hell fire.

[20:20] <iota> i think that morals and laws were more closely related in those times

[20:20] <DWROB>

[20:21] Last message repeated 3 time(s).

[20:21] <DWROB> he states the law, then he states this other thing -- that hatred is just as bad as murder. How can he say that?

[20:21] <vav> a sin is a sin

[20:21] <dalet> so he put more details into the laws

[20:21] <psi> because you should love thy brother

[20:21] <gamma> all sin is equal

[20:21] <tau> because the law is murder and hatred is a moral

[20:21] <DWROB> How can that be true? What has that got to do with the law itself about murder?

[20:21] <aleph> because hatred in what leads to planned murder a lot of the time

[20:21] <kappa> sin is immoral

[20:21] <beta> because the first is a law, and the second should be a belief

[20:21] <pi> its just as corrupting to the soul and separates you from God

[20:21] <bet> gods law a sin is a sin

[20:22] <delta> when you hate it is still sin

[20:22] <epsilon> all sins are equal ... they are all sins

[20:22] <chi> what is the difference between judgment for a murderer and hell fire if you call someone a fool?

[20:22] <eta> he looks at all sins as equal

[20:22] <psi> because you show hatred when you commit murder

[20:22] <rho> your heart has murdered someone

[20:22] <psi> and severe act of hatred

[20:22] <DWROB> chi: Jesus says: NONE

[20:22] <omicron> hatred is the reason for murder

[20:22] <DWROB> rho: but what does that mean?

[20:22] <lamed> some say hatred is death because the hated doesn't exist

[20:22] <psi> you should show compassion

[20:22] <kaf> the basis of the laws and morals are the same

[20:22] <chi> hatred leads to murder

[20:22] <mu> u have cast them out of your heart

[20:22] <DWROB> How is this a "fulfillment" of the law?

[20:22] <psi> if that was the case there would be no one left

[20:22] <eta> it doesn't matter if you steal or murder someone ... he sees it as the same ... but our morals suggest killing someone is worse then stealing

[20:23] <beta> by not turning the other cheek

[20:23] <rho> it is the seeded planted in your heart that leads to murder

[20:23] <DWROB> kaf: explain the common basis, then

[20:23] <epsilon> that's a lesser stage of judgment ... the law is but to be judged by god is the worst

[20:23] <psi> some don't see stealing as that wrong, but most see murder as wrong

[20:23] <sigma> because one stems from the other

[20:23] <beta> because not to murder is a law, and the not to hate should be a belief

[20:23] <bet> hate is in the heart and murder is just an action of hate

[20:23] <psi> morality and criminality

[20:23] <DWROB> rho: NO! it's just as bad even if you don't commit the murder

[20:23] <chi> it shows you what will help you from straying to the dark side

[20:23] <DWROB> This is not a matter of cause and effect.

[20:24] <kaf> ???

[20:24] <rho> right that's what i meant

[20:24] <eta> a sin is a sin! bottom line

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[20:24] <kaf> yeah

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[20:24] <psi> its a matter of whether you do on or the other you are just as bad

[20:24] <beta> thank you xxxx

[20:24] <chi> i don't get it

[20:24] <sigma> a sin is a sin

[20:24] <vav> me either

[20:24] <DWROB> Well, how is this a fulfillment of the law? Show me the math by which he derives one form the other.

[20:24] <gamma> 1 sin= 1 sin

[20:24] <psi> so your saying the he felt that thinking about murder is just as bad a murder itself

[20:25] <DWROB> How is he reading the commandment, "thou shalt not kill"?

[20:25] <chi> well i hope that a rapist gets judged harder the a liar

[20:25] <iota> hatred causes murder

[20:25] <iota> ok

[20:25] <bet> hate=sin murder=sin

[20:25] <lamed> hatred can= death

[20:25] <he> eye for an eye

[20:25] <DWROB> iota: No!

[20:25] <psi> eye=eye

[20:25] <iota> not one is any worse than the other because they are both bad

[20:25] <epsilon> yes

[20:25] <DWROB> no no no

[20:25] <iota> in gods eyes

[20:25] <rho> if a person is turn out of ones life he is just as well dead

[20:25] <dalet> DWROB, please explain

[20:25] <mu> thou shall not take hat is not his

[20:25] <eta> no?

[20:25] <kappa> sin is sin regardless of how it is done

[20:25] <DWROB> it's not a practical matter -- it doesn't make any difference if you actually do the murder, its still sin to hate -- why?

[20:25] <mu> what

[20:25] <iota> ok why then

[20:25] <lamed> okay

[20:26] <chi> you kill yourself by sinning

[20:26] <rho> it goes against love thy neighbor

[20:26] <DWROB> aha pp good ...

[20:26] <pi> because hate corrupts your soul

[20:26] <DWROB> how so?

[20:26] <eta> because ... its brings negative thoughts

[20:26] <dalet> because the hatred is in the soul

[20:26] <aleph> because you have killed them in your heart

[20:26] <psi> because one should love thy brother

[20:26] <DWROB> aha -- good, I meant

[20:26] <lamed> as thy self

[20:26] <beta> b/c you are supposed to love your neighbor

[20:26] <DWROB> psi: Bingo!

[20:26] <eta> it makes you dwell in that thought ... takes your attention way from god ... ... ... ... .?

[20:26] <chi> because if you sin you go to hell

[20:26] <DWROB> But where is "love" in the original commandment?

[20:26] <tau> so it boils down to "love ur neighbor as thyself"?

[20:26] <epsilon> because you its in your heart

[20:26] <DWROB> How did he get that from it?

[20:26] <mu> love thy enemy

[20:26] <chi> because murder is wrong and if you sin you are in effect murdering your soul

[20:26] <kaf> Because God says so

[20:26] <bet> love thy neighbor as thyself

[20:26] <psi> God wins

[20:26] <DWROB> tau: that is the law and prophets, he says -- meaning what?

[20:27] <mu> his father

[20:27] <delta> love originated as first covenant

[20:27] <eta> i don't know

[20:27] <vav> because God so loved the world that ...

[20:27] <gamma> the commandments have a relationship with another

[20:27] <epsilon> that's the bottom line one shall love thy brother, it will be no other way because that's a sin

[20:27] <DWROB> OK -- an idiot looks at the commandment and says, "I haven't killed anyone, therefore I am virtuous.

[20:27] <chi> isn't that also a commandment?

[20:27] <DWROB> What is Jesus saying instead?

[20:27] <mu> he is actually telling them not to do the opposite of what he wants them to do

[20:27] <dalet> the pharisees were too much on outer appearances

[20:27] <eta> don't murder

[20:28] <bet> you should have love for everyone

[20:28] <kappa> Killing is not the only sin

[20:28] <aleph> one sin is just as bad as murder - another sin

[20:28] <delta> be perfect

[20:28] <pi> you have to be virtuous of the heart

[20:28] <lamed> hatred is killing

[20:28] <dalet> don't be so self righteous

[20:28] <lamed> a sin is a sin

[20:28] <kaf> Your heart must be pure

[20:28] <vav> the sins are equal

[20:28] <DWROB> But perfection is not a matter of fulfilling the letter of the law -- you have to follow the PRINCIPLE or spirit behind the law

[20:28] <bet> not only good in action but also in thought

[20:28] <DWROB> which is ... Love

[20:28] <chi> that that is just one extreme

[20:29] <mu> u cant love them and hate them at the same time

[20:29] <beta> ok, that makes sense

[20:29] <gamma> ok

[20:29] <DWROB> Instead of legalism, we now have morality, as some of you were saying

[20:29] <epsilon> love

[20:29] <DWROB> He is insisting that we understand the law in a new way

[20:29] <mu> and love is a moral law

[20:29] <dalet> u made me think the morals thing was wrong

[20:29] <iota> oh ok

[20:29] <iota> now I see

[20:29] <tau> Beatles were right ... all u need is love

[20:29] <kappa> Better understanding

[20:29] <delta> what new way?

[20:29] <chi> what does this have to do with history?

[20:29] <DWROB> a lot!

[20:29] <sigma> having the evil inside to consider committing a sin should hold some punishment as well

[20:29] <DWROB> quote --

[20:29] <DWROB>

[20:29] Last message repeated 3 time(s).

[20:29] <eta> historical literature

[20:29] <psi> anyone know what chapter talks about the last supper

[20:29] <DWROB> 23: Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy

[20:29] <DWROB> brother hath ought against thee;

[20:29] <epsilon> oh i understand it better now

[20:29] <DWROB> 24: Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy

[20:30] <DWROB> brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

[20:30] <DWROB>

[20:30] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:30] yod (~yod@ joined #2111web.

[20:30] <DWROB> What is the point of this?

[20:30] <dalet> have forgiveness in your heart

[20:30] <DWROB> be precise -- look what it says

[20:30] <kappa> love and forgiveness

[20:30] <tau> forgive

[20:30] <beta> last supper = chpt 26

[20:30] <sigma> so that is how you could not be virtuous and never have committed an actual sin

[20:30] <he> humm

[20:30] <mu> yes forgive

[20:30] <chi> chapter 26ish

[20:30] <delta> forgive and even if someone wrongs you bless them anyway

[20:30] <rho> forgive

[20:30] <vav> make peace before you offer the will be better received

[20:30] <epsilon> always have forgiveness

[20:31] <rho> no grudges

[20:31] <mu> always love them no mater what

[20:31] <bet> you have to offer up a gift in order to be forgiven

[20:31] <DWROB> What is the value of the ritual in this view?

[20:31] <lamed> as god can forgive, we can

[20:31] <eta> a clean slate?

[20:31] <vav> forgive and you shall be forgiven

[20:31] <kappa> always be willing to forgive

[20:31] <omicron> love your enemies

[20:31] <DWROB> What is Jesus saying about the Jewish ritual law?

[20:31] <chi> if you know you need to fix something go ahead and fix it

[20:31] <bet> you have to have death before you can be forgiven in life

[20:31] <rho> to publicly show forgiveness

[20:31] <epsilon> there will be no sin in you

[20:31] <iota> forgiveness is a virtue

[20:31] <delta> gifts are offered

[20:31] <DWROB> is he for it or against it?

[20:31] <iota> god forgives so many for their sins that we should too

[20:31] <gamma> we are expected to show the same forgiveness God shows

[20:31] <sigma> you must forgive internally before you outwardly show forgiveness

[20:32] <DWROB> sigma: Exactly

[20:32] <dalet> forget the animal sacrificing

[20:32] <DWROB> the ritual is a SYMBOL of something, not an end in itself.

[20:32] <he> forgive to be forgiven

[20:32] <dalet> sacrifice by loving

[20:32] <delta> ongoing?

[20:32] <DWROB> A foolish person sees only the surface, the ritual, and misses the point of it

[20:32] <kaf> against- the ritual may be pretend

[20:32] <DWROB> right

[20:32] <chi> to cleanse

[20:32] <chi> that it doesn't fix anything that you have to do that

[20:33] <DWROB> All right -- questions so far?

[20:33] <kappa> Outward appearances can be wrong, it is important to actually feel well and forgiving

[20:33] <bet> nope

[20:33] <kaf> when a person is truly fulfilled he will live in righteous - all aspects of his life and not for show

[20:33] <lamed> from the heart

[20:33] <dalet> what's the point in being ritualistic if you only do it for outward appearances

[20:33] <theta> yeah, really?

[20:33] <DWROB> This is a profound innovation -- he is saying that we must think morally, imagine other people as human beings, not just follow a recipe for virtue

[20:33] <kaf> some people do many things for appearances

[20:34] <chi> there is no point

[20:34] <iota> i know now

[20:34] <vav> Will you explain this passage to me. 5:32

[20:34] <DWROB> righteousness is a state of mind, of the spirit, not the sum of outward actions

[20:34] <bet> he is saying we should not just do what we are told but we should want to

[20:34] <lamed> premeditation vs impulse?

[20:34] <DWROB> vav: save it for after

[20:34] <vav> ok

[20:34] <DWROB> bet: he is saying that being a godly person is more than just following directions -- there has to be love as well.

[20:35] <DWROB> It is a very hard lesson for people to absorb, isn't it?

[20:35] <bet> exactly

[20:35] <kaf> like praying in silent instead of streaming a prayer out loud, repeating the same things,

[20:35] <vav> yes

[20:35] <delta> yes yes yes

[20:35] <kappa> yes it

[20:35] <he> yeah you can't be forced into love you know

[20:35] <yod> easier said than done

[20:35] <DWROB> Are people really *up to* absorbing it?

[20:35] <psi> yes it does

[20:35] <beta> exactly xxxx

[20:35] <DWROB> Can people do this??

[20:35] <chi> people are still struggling with it

[20:35] <psi> yes they can

[20:35] <kappa> possible

[20:35] <vav> yes

[20:35] <DWROB> How can they be taught to do this?

[20:35] <yod> daily struggle for me

[20:35] <delta> with vigilance

[20:35] <he> yeah i believe you can learn to love

[20:35] <bet> no not completely no-one is perfect

[20:35] <kaf> some can--

[20:35] <rho> they can through examples

[20:36] <beta> pray and believe

[20:36] <gamma> no because they are not perfect

[20:36] <chi> no

[20:36] <psi> i don't think i could

[20:36] <epsilon> yes

[20:36] <tau> i do not believe its possible

[20:36] <kaf> You must be sure of your beliefs and desires

[20:36] <DWROB> This brings us to the second topic tonight -- The Parables

[20:36] <vav> by the way you raise your children

[20:36] <eta> they have to be willing

[20:36] <DWROB> Why does Jesus teach in parables?

[20:36] <chi> people are selfish my nature

[20:36] <bet> its easier to understand

[20:36] <iota> through prayer

[20:36] <kappa> so everyone better understands

[20:36] <rho> so the people can relate

[20:36] <delta> stories are better ways to learn

[20:36] <aleph> it's easier for people to understand without being blunt

[20:36] <kaf> To better explain

[20:36] <eta> to give a real life-like example

[20:36] <dalet> it gets his point across better

[20:36] <tau> you remember parables

[20:36] <he> easier to understand

[20:37] <yod> the stories give a lesson

[20:37] <iota> to make people have to understand what he is saying

[20:37] <vav> examples?

[20:37] <gamma> to help explain

[20:37] <eta> to connect with he listener

[20:37] <DWROB> Are you saying that a parable is easier to understand than the 10 commandments?

[20:37] <beta> no

[20:37] <sigma> so one has to work harder to actually know of what is being spoken

[20:37] <rho> no

[20:37] <psi> no i disagree

[20:37] <yod> no

[20:37] <chi> to show that is can be done by normal people

[20:37] <chi> the people can relate to it

[20:37] <aleph> they are easier to swallow

[20:37] <bet> no

[20:37] <DWROB> relate == understand

[20:37] <he> no he teaches to help with understanding

[20:37] <eta> no, but it applies it to actual life

[20:37] <delta> yes in some ways because it gives examples of situations

[20:37] <rho> a person must think

[20:37] <epsilon> to relate easier

[20:37] <epsilon> to put in the context of how you want to see i

[20:37] <epsilon> tt

[20:37] <kappa> no, but to the common people that may not understand as well

[20:37] <tau> no ... but a visualistic story is easy to remember

[20:37] <lamed> show examples

[20:37] <chi> yes

[20:37] <sigma> this helps you to remember

[20:37] <kaf> different people relate to different things -- he wants to reach as may as possible

[20:37] <gamma> it helps put it into application

[20:37] <DWROB> I don't know about that ...

[20:38] <iota> also so that the people will have to make what they want of what he says

[20:38] <iota> so they can see it their own way

[20:38] <chi> they do into more detail

[20:38] <DWROB> the running theme seems to be how HARD it is for people to understand the parables

[20:38] <DWROB> even the disciples don't get them

[20:38] <vav> i agree

[20:38] <dalet> really?

[20:38] <bet> does it say that?

[20:38] <DWROB> They pretend they do, and then after the crowd goes away, they ask Jesus what he meant

[20:38] <beta> that's true

[20:38] <rho> many questioned

[20:38] <kappa> I agree

[20:38] <beta> yep

[20:38] <bet> oh

[20:38] <DWROB> Which exasperates Jesus !

[20:38] <lamed> creates a vivid pic

[20:38] <epsilon> but that makes them look more in depth

[20:38] <beta> all the time

[20:38] <eta> ahhh crazy

[20:38] <chi> why teach in a way people cant understand?

[20:39] <DWROB> Exactly the question!

[20:39] <eta> man.. so did the crowd understand i wonder..

[20:39] <aleph> maybe when they run across something in the story in their own lives, they will suddenly understand

[20:39] <bet> i understood

[20:39] <psi> makes no sense

[20:39] <lamed> some didn't get get till he left

[20:39] <DWROB> What's going on here?

[20:39] <dalet> so they can ask questions

[20:39] <sigma> how can they be useful if people don't understand them?

[20:39] <bet> most of the time

[20:39] <DWROB> Indeed -- how?

[20:39] <psi> so they can learn

[20:39] <kappa> trying to confuse them

[20:39] <dalet> a person will want to probe more

[20:39] <epsilon> to put it into their own context ... how ever they wanted to absorb what he said

[20:39] <bet> it s like when someone gives an example it is easier

[20:39] <kappa> the more you ask the better you understand something

[20:39] <chi> Jesus is showing off

[20:40] <DWROB> What does a traditional moral teacher tell his pupils?

[20:40] <sigma> to keep open trains of thought flowing

[20:40] <psi> learn from your mistakes

[20:40] <rho> learn from your heart

[20:40] <psi> just keep learning

[20:40] <DWROB> no, no, I mean when people teach morality , how do they usually try to do it?

[20:40] <delta> condition perfectionism first

[20:40] <bet> by example

[20:40] <kappa> giving examples

[20:40] <psi> they try and show a perfect figure

[20:40] <chi> ?

[20:40] <eta> stories ...

[20:40] <rho> epic stories

[20:40] <DWROB> But also by listing commandments

[20:40] <he> lecture

[20:41] <psi> someone who is morality correct

[20:41] <DWROB> lecture!

[20:41] <sigma> to question him and keep up a discussion

[20:41] <DWROB> commandments!

[20:41] <he> joke

[20:41] <delta> so he listed commandments then based them upon parables?

[20:41] <chi> lead my example

[20:41] <DWROB> What Jesus does is different -- he tells these weird stories

[20:41] <epsilon> that anything else is wrong

[20:41] <chi> scare people with hell

[20:41] <lamed> interactively

[20:41] <kaf> extreme stories

[20:41] <DWROB> what is the benefit here? We KNOW that some people will not understand

[20:41] <sigma> in an open discussion, by giving examples, role play

[20:41] <DWROB> in fact, there are parables about that, too

[20:42] <sigma> perhaps to capture the attention of his listeners?

[20:42] <DWROB> role playing is interesting -- that gets close to it

[20:42] <chi> people are more likely to remember if its weird

[20:42] <delta> those who understand can pass it on to those who don

[20:42] <rho> others will explain the parable, passing the word

[20:42] <kappa> These stories make you actually think about it to try to comprehend

[20:42] <tau> what could possibly be the benefit of telling stories no on understands? to make your self look better or something?

[20:42] <psi> its much easier to remember with examples

[20:42] <DWROB> Remember how morality was defined a second ago

[20:42] <rho> people will be come teachers

[20:42] <DWROB> what are these stories requiring of you?

[20:42] <beta> to believe

[20:43] <epsilon> others will talk about the weird stories, things that are uncommon seem to stick in the mind better

[20:43] <tau> to think

[20:43] <bet> to obey

[20:43] <delta> think

[20:43] <DWROB> to think about what, how?

[20:43] <yod> to listen really and compare them to your own experiences

[20:43] <eta> to understand

[20:43] <DWROB> yes

[20:43] <DWROB> good

[20:43] <iota> i think so too

[20:43] <dalet> they stay on your mind longer. ask more questions

[20:43] <lamed> think on ur actions

[20:43] <epsilon> that seeing isn't believing, believing is seeing

[20:43] <chi> most people are too lazy to figure it out themselves

[20:43] <DWROB> to apply the law, to interpret -- to think like we think in a literature class! not to be literal and simple minded

[20:43] <sigma> spreading the word, people will want to tell more people about these elaborate stories because they are so interesting

[20:43] <DWROB> to use imagination -- moral imagination

[20:44] <chi> your life in the way Jesus sees it

[20:44] <DWROB> yes

[20:44] <rho> think outside the box

[20:44] <kaf> the definitions of commandments are broaden because people will interpret what Jesus says differently

[20:44] <gamma> apply it to your own life

[20:44] <DWROB> in other words, he is not telling people to follow rules, but to find for themselves the principle behind the rules -- not intellectually, but in their action toward others

[20:44] <chi> it doesn't seem to me that he want people to be that open minded

[20:44] <rho> these parables apply to life years to come

[20:45] <psi> to look for there own meaning behind them

[20:45] <DWROB> It's a very tough thing to learn, as we noted.

[20:45] <chi> he doesn't even ask people to free their servants

[20:45] <theta> he's telling people that the answers are out there for themselves to find

[20:45] <he> could that be like how your parents teach you manners and what have you

[20:45] <DWROB> chi: he does tell them to leave all their possessions and follow him, though

[20:45] <beta> principles that lead to morals

[20:45] <dalet> he wanted people to be very open minded

[20:45] <he> some people never learn them I guess that could be considered hard for some

[20:45] <theta> but he's not going to outright tell them, because they must discover it for themselves

[20:45] <mu> people sometimes spend their whole lives trying figure out

[20:45] <DWROB> So what about the people that don't get it?

[20:45] <sigma> people will make connections between what they have pulled from the parables and soon a theme forms

[20:45] <iota> understand

[20:46] <beta> the have to have faith

[20:46] <delta> they sin

[20:46] <vav> they are confused ... like me

[20:46] <DWROB> heh

[20:46] <bet> do they not want to understand

[20:46] <theta> they're "lost" ... they don't get to go to the "kingdom of heaven"

[20:46] <DWROB> right!

[20:46] <chi> see contradictions in his own actions

[20:46] <eta> oh man

[20:46] <rho> they must open their mind and heart

[20:46] <DWROB> morality is thinking in this loving way -- not anything else

[20:46] <DWROB> not everyone can do it, and that's the way it goes.

[20:46] <sigma> they will either sin more frequently or just try to copy others

[20:46] <DWROB> so to speak

[20:46] <DWROB> Makes me sound like a Calvinist ...

[20:47] <chi> everyone in today's world is screwed then

[20:47] <theta> haha

[20:47] <DWROB> then too, always

[20:47] <tau> basically

[20:47] <psi> it does

[20:47] <DWROB> Now, topic three ...

[20:47] <DWROB> "the kingdom of heaven"

[20:47] <chi> predestined to go to heaven?

[20:47] <DWROB> we hear about this in parable after parable

[20:47] <DWROB> what is the Kingdom of Heaven?

[20:48] <theta> ... mentioned 50 something times

[20:48] <delta> eternal bliss

[20:48] <theta> it's the place our soul goes after death

[20:48] <beta> eternal life

[20:48] <kaf> Where God lives

[20:48] <tau> where God is

[20:48] <rho> life with God

[20:48] <eta> the good place

[20:48] <he> ahhhhhh

[20:48] <theta> god's kingdom

[20:48] <tau> happiness

[20:48] <DWROB> what;s the address?

[20:48] <psi> where god lives

[20:48] <bet> a place were people who obey with heart go

[20:48] <chi> it would take the fun out of it if we knew

[20:48] <dalet> eternity

[20:48] <kappa> happiness

[20:48] <vav> the right side of God

[20:49] <eta> state f mind

[20:49] <theta> in another realm ... or possibly a state of mind ... or the absence thereof

[20:49] <rho> the place the soul can go

[20:49] <DWROB> aha!

[20:49] <epsilon> life after death

[20:49] <lamed> ohhh

[20:49] <DWROB> You have it -- both meanings apply in different cases

[20:49] <chi> heaven is what you imagine it to be

[20:49] <psi> your final place

[20:49] <kaf> where you want to be

[20:49] <DWROB> 1. the afterlife

[20:49] <dalet> which meanings

[20:49] <DWROB> 2. a state of mind and spirit here on earth

[20:49] <DWROB> both

[20:49] <dalet> ok

[20:49] <psi> ok

[20:49] <DWROB> #2 is consistent with the emphasis on morality I have been pursuing

[20:50] <DWROB> Let's look at some examples

[20:50] <chi> how can you be sure?

[20:50] <DWROB>

[20:50] Last message repeated 4 time(s).

[20:50] <DWROB> 24: Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is

[20:50] <DWROB> likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

[20:50] <DWROB> 25: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and

[20:50] <DWROB> went his way.

[20:50] <DWROB> 26: But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the

[20:50] <DWROB> tares also.

[20:50] <DWROB> 27: So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou

[20:50] <DWROB> sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

[20:50] <DWROB> 28: He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him,

[20:50] <DWROB> Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

[20:50] <DWROB> 29: But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat

[20:50] <DWROB> with them.

[20:50] <DWROB> 30: Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to

[20:50] <DWROB> the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn

[20:50] <DWROB> them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

[20:50] <DWROB>

[20:51] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:51] <DWROB> chi: by reading and interpreting!

[20:51] <DWROB> what is the kingdom of heaven in this case?

[20:51] <tau> a barn?

[20:51] <beta> forgiveness

[20:51] <psi> no clue

[20:51] <DWROB> try harder!

[20:52] <chi> working with someone who needs help/afeild

[20:52] <dalet> a place where souls of good harvest go

[20:52] <aleph> doing good being invited to be with god

[20:52] <DWROB> a barn? no

[20:52] <bet> place were the son of man went

[20:52] <tau> a place with no evil (tares)

[20:52] <DWROB> tares are weeds (evil)

[20:52] <bet> reward

[20:52] <delta> good harvest meaning good life meaning go to heaven

[20:52] <DWROB> OK, so it's the afterlife?

[20:52] <bet> the field

[20:52] <gamma> a place of perfection

[20:52] <kappa> where evil is separated and burned in a fiery pit

[20:52] <dalet> sounds like it

[20:53] <beta> yes, afterlife

[20:53] <lamed> reap what u sew

[20:53] <DWROB> But what is the actual lesson of the parable?

[20:53] <rho> their sense of heaven

[20:53] <epsilon> a farm

[20:53] <DWROB> you have good people and bad people -- fine, that's not news

[20:53] <vav> the bad shall burn

[20:53] <chi> the harvest

[20:53] <aleph> at the right time, the evil will be taken away and the good will be rewarded

[20:53] <tau> the bad go to hell

[20:53] <DWROB> what does the servant want to do?

[20:53] <bet> i didn't see a lesson except don't be a bad weed

[20:53] <dalet> bad people will always be in the mist or influence, but in the end, their true ways will be shown.

[20:53] <kappa> in the end bad and good are separated and the bad is doomed

[20:53] beta (~beta@ left irc: Quit

[20:53] <dalet> they will reap their reward.

[20:53] <eta> yes ... good people get good things

[20:53] <pi> the good and the evil grow together and they will not be separated until the reapers come harvest time

[20:53] <DWROB> bet: Oh, there';s a lesson

[20:53] <chi> or life on earth

[20:53] <chi> it could go both ways

[20:53] <chi> good one

[20:53] <tau> get rid of the evil

[20:53] <aleph> wants to try to separate the good from the bad to soon to tell the difference

[20:53] <epsilon> let the good and bad grow together and when the time is right evil will be taken away

[20:53] <bet> don't sleep

[20:54] <dalet> do not be revengeful

[20:54] <DWROB> aleph: right -- and what does the master say?

[20:54] dalet ( left irc: Read error: No route to host

[20:54] <kappa> if you try to pull the bad away too soon some good will go bad or go too

[20:54] <DWROB> dalet: good

[20:54] <rho> it must be carried out all the time

[20:54] <eta> the bad will get whats coming

[20:54] <delta> weed out the bad ones

[20:54] <DWROB> how should we deal with the evil people?

[20:54] <tau> the master says not yet ... ..

[20:54] <lamed> only the good crop can be used but the bad can b saved

[20:54] <bet> don't judge

[20:54] <DWROB> delta: no, not us

[20:54] <DWROB> bet: right

[20:54] <rho> don't judge

[20:54] <DWROB> leave it to God

[20:54] <aleph> he wants to wait to be sure

[20:54] <pi> we wont deal with them

[20:54] <he> let him be the judge

[20:54] <sigma> harvest

[20:54] <chi> burn the evil in hell

[20:54] <rho> only God shall judge

[20:55] <DWROB> so in other words there is a clear moral message here, a message for the here and now, involving love

[20:55] <lamed> turn the other cheek

[20:55] <DWROB> haha -- tricked you! you thought it was just heaven!

[20:55] <rho> good

[20:55] <epsilon> there will always be evil mixed in but in the end god will know the truth

[20:55] <gamma> we should be responsible for ourselves

[20:55] <DWROB> another example ... .

[20:55] <chi> yes

[20:55] <pi> haha

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[20:55] <DWROB>

[20:55] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:55] <DWROB> 44: Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which

[20:55] <DWROB> when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he

[20:55] <DWROB> hath, and buyeth that field.

[20:55] <DWROB>

[20:56] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:56] <sigma> hahahahahaha

[20:56] <chi> no i said it was heaven and earth

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[20:56] <DWROB> #1 or #2?

[20:56] <DWROB> xxxx -- OK, I was just kidding

[20:56] <dalet> i was totally disconnected

[20:56] <DWROB> #1 or #2?

[20:56] <chi> i know

[20:57] <DWROB> This is short but harder. What does it mean?

[20:57] <chi> this one is more earth then heaven

[20:57] <chi> because he is buying "heaven"

[20:57] <epsilon> ????

[20:57] <bet> DWROB is that king James

[20:57] <DWROB> yes

[20:57] <aleph> 1

[20:57] <DWROB> chi: I think so -- what does it mean then about life here on earth?

[20:57] <mu> rewards

[20:57] <dalet> the kingdom of heaven is that precious

[20:57] <delta> heaven is a treasure in itself

[20:58] <sigma> uno

[20:58] <epsilon> that everything you've ever done will be traded in as the price it pays to get into heaven

[20:58] <chi> he finds his heaven and gives up all his earthly possessions to buy it, but he doesn't share it

[20:58] <psi> the rewards

[20:58] <bet> ok he tells others about his field so others can go there ie. heaven

[20:58] <DWROB> yes, it can be real either way -- also as rejection of material life in anticipation of heaven

[20:58] <eta> you have to give everything up ... you cant take anything with you.

[20:58] <vav> that you cant buy your way into heaven

[20:59] <mu> sacrifices

[20:59] <chi> the fact that he tells no one gets me

[20:59] <chi> if you find heaven shouldn't you tell people

[20:59] <DWROB> odd, isn;t it?

[20:59] <DWROB>

[20:59] Last message repeated 3 time(s).

[20:59] <DWROB> 1: Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took

[20:59] <DWROB> their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

[20:59] <lamed> priceless sacrifices ie love

[20:59] <DWROB> 2: And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

[20:59] <DWROB> 3: They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

[20:59] <DWROB> 4: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

[20:59] <DWROB> 5: While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

[20:59] <DWROB> 6: And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye

[20:59] <DWROB> out to meet him.

[20:59] <DWROB> 7: Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

[20:59] <DWROB> 8: And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone

[20:59] <DWROB> out.

[20:59] <chi> yes

[20:59] <DWROB> 9: But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you:

[20:59] <DWROB> but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

[20:59] <DWROB> 10: And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready

[20:59] <DWROB> went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

[21:00] <DWROB> 11: Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

[21:00] <DWROB> 12: But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

[21:00] <DWROB> 13: Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of

[21:00] <DWROB> man cometh.

[21:00] <DWROB>

[21:00] <psi> yes

[21:00] <DWROB>

[21:00] <DWROB>

[21:00] <DWROB> one more -- the wise and foolish virgins

[21:00] <chi> i was going to ask you about this one which i totally missed the point of, is there only one bridegroom?

[21:00] <DWROB> yes, the bridegroom is singular

[21:00] <DWROB> go figure

[21:00] <pi> always be prepared for judgment because you never know when your gonna die

[21:00] <DWROB> figure

[21:01] <DWROB> yes!

[21:01] <DWROB> good

[21:01] <dalet> be ready at all times for the coming of the son of man?

[21:01] <psi> you will never be prepared

[21:01] <DWROB> so what is the kingdom of heaven here?

[21:01] <bet> the bridegroom

[21:01] <pi> the room with the bridegroom

[21:01] <Anon4322> you should always be prepared

[21:01] <he> within yourself

[21:01] <delta> no one knows the time so be prepared

[21:01] <DWROB> he: how so?

[21:01] <chi> sex

[21:01] <aleph> be on your best behavior at all times because you never know

[21:01] <DWROB> bah!

[21:02] <psi> like Santa clause says

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[21:02] <pi> the foolish virgins weren't prepared on earth so they didn't get into heaven

[21:02] <he> you must be prepared and your the one preparing yourself for salvation

[21:02] <DWROB> aleph: that sort of combines both meanings, doesn't it?

[21:02] <chi> this is like the boy scout honeymoon moral

[21:02] <DWROB> pi:good

[21:02] <DWROB> chi: I am afraid to ask ...

[21:03] <he> ha

[21:03] <psi> me too

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[21:03] <chi> "always be prepared"

[21:03] <epsilon> you never know when something may happened..

[21:03] <DWROB> OK, the point I wanted to make is the kind of innovation in moral and religious thinking that Jesus is making in relation to the Jewish tradition.

[21:03] <DWROB> I think I have done it.

[21:03] <DWROB> Questions?

[21:03] <psi> nope

[21:03] <gamma> nope

[21:03] <bet> nah

[21:03] <dalet> no

[21:03] <eta> nope

[21:03] <beta> not at all

[21:03] <chi> never mind

[21:03] <mu> nope

[21:03] <DWROB> chi: aha

[21:03] <DWROB> We are done!

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[21:03] <DWROB> be prepared, indeed

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[21:03] <sigma> hang ten

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[21:04] <rho> goodnite

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[21:04] <DWROB> as Strong Bad says, "It's Over!!!"

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[21:04] <eta> later

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[21:04] <vav> Can you explain this one thing to be before you go.

[21:05] <DWROB> I can try

[21:05] <vav> 5:32

[21:05] <DWROB> 31: It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a

[21:05] <DWROB> writing of divorcement:

[21:05] <DWROB> 32: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the

[21:05] <DWROB> cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry

[21:05] <DWROB> her that is divorced committeth adultery.

[21:05] <DWROB>

[21:05] Last message repeated 1 time(s).

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[21:06] <DWROB> Looks like he is saying: work it out. Love, love, love.

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[21:06] <DWROB> And of course he is pretty soft on adulterers, too -- famously.

[21:07] <vav> if someone marry a woman who is divorced he has already committed adultery?

[21:07] <DWROB> so to break the marriage up is a bad thing, and to make the woman seek another man is its bad consequence.

[21:07] <DWROB> It depends how literally you take this.

[21:08] <DWROB> The point seems to be not to divorce for light or trivial reasons

[21:08] <DWROB> the fornication part looks to me like exaggeration to make a point

[21:08] <vav> it says it twice and i did not get it the first time

[21:08] <DWROB> but that's just my reading of it

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[21:09] <vav> I get it a little better now ... thanks.

[21:09] <DWROB> I think if you take Jesus literally you don't get too far -- the guy is talking in parables, after all

[21:09] <DWROB> You have to be a little bit more nimble!

[21:09] <vav> it is hard to understand

[21:09] <DWROB> yes

[21:09] <DWROB> deliberately hard

[21:09] <vav> and if you don't understand then you are not going to heaven according to Matthew.

[21:10] <DWROB> there is no substitute for being a moral loving person

[21:10] <DWROB> and here is how you do it (basically)

[21:10] <DWROB> seems harsh, but it is also quite matter of fact

[21:10] <vav> yes

[21:11] <vav> Thank you

[21:11] <DWROB> I hope that helps -- bear in mind ...

[21:11] <DWROB> I am reading this as a literary critic, not according to some sectarian belief

[21:11] <DWROB> So distrust me accordingly

[21:11] <vav> that i do understand

[21:12] <vav> just trying to get a better picture of it all

[21:12] <DWROB> OK

[21:12] <vav> Thanks again ... goodnight

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