Chat 6: Euripedes, Medea
--- Thu Feb 10 2005
<DWROB> A word about the midterm
<DWROB> I will post instructions on the forum tomorrow morning. The exam will be open 36 hours, from noon tomorrow to midnight Friday
<pi> do you have to take it all at once when you start?
<DWROB> That gives you two evenings to work on it
<pi> or can you come back to it any time in those 36
<chi> ?
<DWROB> You can save and return later
<GSUser> i have the wrong name
<vav> Good
<pi> sweet
<DWROB> But after I lock it, there will be no retakes, of course.
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<he> of course
<pi> of course
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<DWROB> GSUser: use the command /nick followed by your right name
<beta> how many questions will it be?
<kaf> format?
<DWROB> Any questions? It's on Inquisition just like the quizzes -- you'll see the link when you look for it.
<DWROB> Three identification/discussion questions
<vav> can you give us a sample question?
<DWROB> no
<DWROB> :-)
<pi> haha
<kaf> only 3
<DWROB> look tomorrow and all will be revealed
<DWROB> 3, so don't blow one
<bet> are you looking for essay type answers
<DWROB> yes
<pi> it covers Gilgamesh through Medea
<DWROB> yes
<DWROB> Sumeria through Medea
<pi> oh yeah
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<kaf> how long should the response be
<DWROB> Don't forget our watery friend Enki
<beta> how long will the essays need to be?
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<DWROB> It's supposed to be equivalent to an hour-long test.
<theta> ... long enough to answer the question ...
<DWROB> exactly
<DWROB> But no novels -- figure an hour
<DWROB> All right -- Medea. Any initial reactions to this play?
<DWROB> Did it hold your attention at least?
<vav> loved it
<delta> a woman's scorn
<theta> i liked it ... she reminds me of some past girlfriends ...
<vav> yes
<tau> i liked it to
<beta> she is wicked mean
<kaf> yeah
<aleph> it was a lot more interesting that I thought it would be
<he> pretty messed up
<bet> yes it was interesting
<epsilon> I thought it was good
<epsilon> yes
<rho> yes
<eta> alright..
<omicron> kind of cruel
<DWROB> mean -- yes
<kappa> The play is quite interesting because it comes from Medea's perspective
<gamma> it was a completely different kind of story
<DWROB> cruel -- yes
<epsilon> it was a lot easier to read than the previous
<beta> yeah, there was so much that happened - never a dull moment
<DWROB> different from what?
<pi> just a bunch of anger and murder
<eta> the man was the cause of the woman's pain this time
<dalet> it was good but showed selfishness
<he> this story didn't end like most
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<kappa> Different from what you would normally expect from the times
<gamma> woman's dominance
<pi> but if you look at Jason and Medea's history shes been his cause for pain in the past
<beta> no, she was oppressed
<tau> revenge against the man
<rho> Jason was at his ex's mercy
<aleph> the gods did not play an active role in the story
<beta> that why she did those things
<dalet> during the Greek times, hardly a woman ended up on top
<DWROB> The victory of the woman is the shocking thing in the play, yes -- this would have really disgusted the Greeks
<beta> the gods were more of a passive role
<chi> how do we look at old chats?
<chi> yes I enjoyed the new style
<chi> the main character was a woman, and there was a darker side to the writing
<beta> not front and center
<bet> i like it
<DWROB> The Greek male audience for this play would have been having fits
<iota> easier to read than the others
<iota> old crazy Medea
<kappa> Its a lot for a woman to kill her children
<aleph> Was the author trying to piss off the audience?
<tau> disgusted the Greeks because the woman took charge?
<DWROB> iota: you think she's crazy?
<vav> I think so
<beta> she was crazy
<phi> pretty scary stuff, killin babies and what not
<lambda> she goes crazy
<mu> She is very crazy
<dalet> i'm sure the audience didn't know whether to love Medea or hate her
<bet> yes a little
<xi> I liked it too
<rho> yes to kill her own kids
<DWROB> aleph: yes, in a way -- to make them look at themselves, maybe
<delta> anger management problem
<beta> no matter what my son's father could do, I would never kill my own son
<kappa> She seems to have coherent thought but still be insane
<DWROB> delta: but she manages it very well, and gets her revenge, and gets away with it
<mu> at first i felt sorry for her but not after she did what she did
<tau> Medea is very clever
<vav> intellect
<aleph> even though this is an old story, it seems like something that would happen today
<dalet> she didn't have to kill the kids
<delta> you're absolutely right
<mu> but her pain is going to be her punishment
<eta> but at least she got him back ... that's all that ever mattered to her
<omicron> she doesn't feel bad about it?
<bet> no
<vav> he does a little
<beta> no revenge is sweet enough to kill your own children
<kappa> Maybe she's a little "off her rocker" but still managing to think coherently and be cruel
<vav> for her children
<omicron> i agree
<epsilon> she is witty
<rho> she has no conscience
<kaf> She paid a grand price for revenge
<eta> it is to her apparently!!
<delta> her anger seemed to have worried a lot of powerful people why?
<DWROB> I saw a Broadway production of Medea two years ago, and they made M out to be like Susan Smith, the SC woman who killed her kids over boyfriend stuff.
<sigma> Jason had every bit as much cause in his own pain as Medea
<sigma> witty
<dalet> i loved the craziness of it
<omega> did he care
<DWROB> Does that seem like a fair comparison?
<beta> that's a good analogy
<aleph> this story is more serious
<mu> she is somewhat but Susan Smith was ill
<he> i don't see how a mother can do that
<DWROB> Remember Susan Smith?
<beta> both crazy
<rho> mind twisting woman
<pi> he didn't love her anymore does that deserve the pain she gave him?
<aleph> yes
<vav> YES
<kaf> Yes
<bet> no comparison
<he> yeah
<omicron> very similar
<lambda> they were both a little crazy
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<kaf> good comparison
<tau> didn't Susan smith hear voices?
<delta> even though it was cruel she really felt she had good intentions
<kappa> very little
<iota> well ... yes
<iota> she kills her own children to get back at Jason
<aleph> back in her time, she had no where to go
<gamma> scary women
<dalet> it was not the same comparison but
<chi> woman didn't have any rights and she was foreign, this piece was a challenge to the times
<chi> there was no one that dared cross her after she killed her own children
<rho> the kids were innocent
<DWROB> bet: why no comparison?
<beta> yeah - the devil told her to do it
<he> hehe
<aleph> she killed her own brother to be with Jason , and he leaves her for another wife.
<kaf> Everything was about getting back at Jason
<bet> she murdered
<DWROB> beta: that was another woman
<DWROB> she really WAS crazy
<bet> he just wanted to be prince
<mu> Only one difference Susan was punished for what she did
<kappa> He "intended" well
<dalet> M would have suffered today just like Susan did
<rho> Medea was rewarded
<he> intended was just a bunch of bull
<kaf> She killed her own brother
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<DWROB> mu: Smith was a pathetic stupid fluff brain -- Medea is not like that.
<kappa> hence the quotation marks
<vav> true
<DWROB> Medea is simply ruthless
<aleph> she is considered clever
<bet> he wanted the best for his sons also, she didn't care
<delta> I agree good intentions so she thought
<mu> or crazy
<aleph> Even the king was afraid of her
<dalet> the irony is how the Gods were on M's side and let her get away w/it
<DWROB> yes, and not afraid enough
<bet> she was a witch
<eta> she got her point across
<tau> everyone is knocking on Medea (for good reason) but Jason is the one that drove her to that point ... he abandoned her
<omega> kinda like war of the roses the mood of the story
<DWROB> dalet: good -- why ARE the gods on her side????
<phi> yes
<phi> she killed her kids!
<phi> he left her to be royalty
<vav> she was dead set on revenge
<beta> yeah, he deserved what he got
<he> I thought the god just didn't object to what she was doing
<sigma> Medea's actions would parallel to that of S. Smith
<pi> so does he deserve to have his children killed?
<xi> yes
<gamma> he broke an oath
<kappa> She was odd because she was a decent liar, great intellect and good at going after what she wanted-revenge
<vav> he betrayed there bonds
<chi> no, there was more here. She was betrayed after she had done so much for Jason
<chi> She had saved his life and helped him so much and he just left her
<chi> she did carry on conversations with herself
<DWROB> gamma: what oath?
<dalet> first, her grandfather is a god
<aleph> isn't she somehow related to the gods?
<delta> that's what i want to know why? were they so scared
<bet> the gods did take pity on her
<vav> marriage
<lambda> she is the granddaughter of a god
<gamma> between a man and wife
<beta> of the sun god
<epsilon> she was smart, Medea
<epsilon> because Jason broke an oath
<DWROB> bet: not pity -- they are obliged to her because she has done nothing to dishonor them
<pi> are any of your parents divorced? maybe you should be killed to punish them for doing it
<he> They just didn't mind what she was doing
<beta> that's not the same
<kaf> Zeus is on her side because he is the god who make sure oaths are abided by
<rho> good point
<DWROB> pi: few of our mothers measure up to Medea (fortunately
<mu> But by killing her kids isn't that dishonoring them
<DWROB> mu: no
<delta> did they somehow know about her problem with anger beforehand
<DWROB> because the children are already as good as dead
<dalet> why not?
<pi> I know but people hear are justifying Medea's actions because Jason left her
<DWROB> They will be exiles
<beta> yes, she was known as a sorcerer
<vav> how so?
<DWROB> Exiles in Greece meant truly homeless, at the mercy of strangers.
<rho> Medea wanted nothing left of her marriage to Jason
<mu> ok but they had a place to reside in
<he> They would have to fend for themselves
<sigma> sher: if he wanted what was best for his sons, then why wouldn't he want to be with their mother?
<sigma> Jason broke his vows
<sigma> vow of fidelity
<DWROB> Unless you are a hero like Odysseus and you can charm your way along
<tau> anyone ever had a spouse leave you? it hurts (but doesn't condone you killing your kids)
<delta> but she already arranged a home in Athens
<beta> and they had servants
<dalet> sort of like that movie Beloved
<aleph> how would they have been viewed had she not killed everyone or been exiled?
<he> true true
<DWROB> Yes, Jason broke his marriage vows and other vows and obligations to Medea
<chi> because he broke his promise which is a dis to Zeus
<chi> the marriage oath
<chi> because they are exiled
<pi> tau : Exactly
<vav> but with her cleverness she and the kids could have made it in exile?
<omicron> she must have not loved her kids
<DWROB> This is not trivial -- he is an oath breaker, a dishonorable man, careless of his godly duties
<omicron> i found that ridiculous and hard to understand
<rho> he pays her price
<omicron> they were her own kids
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<kappa> Yes Jason was a bad person
<DWROB> omicron: she loved them -- but they are already hopelessly doomed
<aleph> so the story was to warn people that breaking an oath was worse than murder
<delta> She did love her kids in a sick way she thought she was doing them a favor!!
<beta> doomed how?
<bet1> sorry I'm back
<DWROB> kappa: bad as he is, he's even stupider than he is bad
<gamma> she was more concerned about herself anyway
<kaf> why hopelessly doomed?
<omicron> that doesn't make any sense
<he> they would always be known as Jason's exiled children
<DWROB> beta: doomed to exile and dishonor
<bet1> that's true he fell for her
<kappa> Yes I agree he is stupider than he is bad
<beta> oh, thanks
<kaf> oh I see
<he> ridiculed everywhere
<omicron> i guess they thought different than we do
<DWROB> he: yes, and the sons of the witch Medea, the barbarian woman
<beta> stupid as he was he was known to be a smooth talker
<DWROB> omicron: they certainly did
<kappa> Which is quite a ridiculous combination
<eta> Jason didn't care if there were exiled..
<DWROB> kappa: what?
<lambda> so they were doomed because of their mother
<vav> didn't the father beg for his children to stay and was agreed?
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<omega> she hated him that much.
<omega> no killing equals no respect or entertainment
<aleph> did she lose her honor because Jason left her?
<sigma> how can at the mercy of strangers and dead be the same in the life of a child?
<DWROB> vav: yes, but he's full of crap.
<aleph> Everyone respected her before Jason left
<chi> that wasn't the only reason she killed her kids
<chi> he only cares about power and money
<chi> exile
<dalet> i thought they were to stay at the mercy of the princess
<kappa> Stupid and bad is a bad combination
<DWROB> :-)
<kaf> He didn't care about them before
<he> It did it for his own self satisfaction
<kaf> he abandoned them
<DWROB> dalet: that's just it -- M and the kids are at everyone's mercy if they lose Jason as protector
<bet1> if he knew her capacity of evil why did he love her?
<dalet> he put lust before his family
<pi> wasn't Jason good in the story of the Golden Fleece
<DWROB> Foreigners have no status in Greece -- they are regarded as barbarians
<rho> the golden fleece
<DWROB> Barely civilized, objects of contempt., maybe fear
<he> Fear of the unknown
<gamma> they had earned there way up in society
<beta> not lust, greed
<kaf> twice as bad for M, she is a woman
<DWROB> And Medea is a witch -- dangerous
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<tau> what strikes me is how no one in the play takes responsibility for anything that happens
<theta> she's also a barbarian
<epsilon> no she knew she wasn't doing them a favor, just to make Jason's life ruined
<aleph> but everyone respected her before Jason left
<DWROB> tau: Medea does!
<dalet> he lusted after a young princess
<kappa> Why is she a witch?-because she is clever and female
<abc> Most of the characters of Greece in these stories abandoned their wives
<DWROB> dalet: his trophy wife
<tau> well, Jason doesn't
<rho> what was M's and Jason's marriage built on?
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<bet1> his royal trophy wife
<DWROB> rho: sex and power
<beta> but he did it to gain power and wealth
<he> she made potions and rode dragons
<kaf> how does she take responsibility
<rho> not love
<theta> she helped Jason with his quest
<gamma> he was concerned with what benefit him and him alone
<he> she possessed magic
<pi> kappa : it says in the preface she was regarded as a sorceress
<eta> yes.. royalty stuff
<DWROB> he: never dump a woman who drives a dragon
<dalet> exactly!
<omicron> didn't M break an oath with her 1st husband
<kappa> ok thanks I missed that
<vav> haha\
<he> haha
<yod> she tries to smooth it over the whole time
<delta> ha
<lambda> naturally
<yod> very clever imo
<DWROB> yod: she is lying, manipulating, laying traps
<pi> yeah Medea screwed over her country for Jason back with the Fleece
<bet1> she wants his trust
<tau> never dump a sorceress who killed her own brother
<DWROB> All right -- who is the tragic hero in this play?
<rho> their was fear through out for Medea
<beta> plotting Jason's downfall
<dalet> LOL! :-O
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<gamma> Jason
<bet1> Jason
<he> Jason
<eta> Jason
<omicron> Jason
<delta> Jason
<beta> Jason
<lambda> Jason
<rho> Jason
<aleph> Medea
<nu> Jason
<kaf> Medea
<vav> she is playing to his ego then smashes it.
<kappa> Jason
<theta> Medea
<dalet> Medea
<DWROB> :-P
<tau> Medea
<he> you could say Medea
<eta> uh oh..
<bet1> hes not so great
<yod> Medea
<rho> Medea could be too
<DWROB> Aristotle says this about tragic figures:
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<DWROB> -- in tragedy, the main character must be a person of
<DWROB> high status who suffers a fall due to a character
<DWROB> flaw ("hamartia"), generally a version of "hubris";
<DWROB> in the end, the hero experiences enlightenment
<DWROB> ("anagnoresis")
<DWROB> -- audience members must "identify" with the tragic
<DWROB> hero, that is, feel an emotional bond based on pity
<DWROB> and fear at his fate; these emotions, thus
<DWROB> artificially roused, are then purged ("catharsis")
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<chi> they also know she has killed people in her own family
<chi> Jason
<DWROB> his/her, not to prejudice matters
<DWROB> hubris == pride
<rho> in the gods eyes Medea is the main character
<DWROB> Jason fits better?
<DWROB> why?
<bet1> he had selfish pride
<DWROB> yes
<he> They both take a fall from their status but Jason seems to have lost the most
<vav> I agree
<beta> b/c Medea is not a hero
<abc> Why did he want Glauce so bad?
<delta> He was full of pride
<yod> everything he values is lost
<omicron> he had a bigger downfall
<omega> built on spells
<omega> Jason
<omega> but could Medea be linked in some kind of way to a hero of women?
<DWROB> abc: political advancement
<aleph> he is full of pride and makes a stupid decision
<pi> because he brought himself doom because he was stupid
<omicron> downfall
<yod> he is the bigger loser
<vav> he had everything then lost it
<kappa> He seems to be a main character and he has a flaw-stupidity
<DWROB> and she's younger (doesn't hurt)
<aleph> he thought that he could have everything
<gamma> because he is concerned with himself and his personal well-being
<beta> power and wealth
<eta> so who is it
<DWROB> gamma: yes
<aleph> he also didn't check with Medea first and so brought down all the anguish that he received
<abc> thank you i thought it had to do with power and authority
<bet1> he tried to have everything and ended up with nothing
<DWROB> and what's worse, he thinks he can get away with this
<DWROB> that it's OK
<DWROB> that he has good reasons for it
<yod> typical male way of thinking
<lambda> so he is stupid and arrogant
<epsilon> Jason
<epsilon> because all he wanted was a better life with money and royalty
<mu> selfish
<beta> yeah, his excuse to Medea is that he's doing it for her and the kids
<aleph> he has justified what he is doing and believes it is best
<bet1> hes delusional
<dalet> Well, who is it?
<DWROB> He justifies it all to himself and to Medea (!)
<rho> another woman
<sigma> what exactly was the Golden Fleece
<sigma> ha!
<sigma> J
<rho> he thought
<delta> He thinks he did her a favor
<vav> She doesn't buy it
<he> How didn't he know that Medea was going to have to get him back some way
<DWROB> bet1: he's an idiot, but a recognizably MALE kind of idiot
<beta> a ship
<bet1> ha so true
<mu> gives males a bad name
<DWROB> Remember when he is lecturing Medea about how irrational women are?
<he> I got it
<chi> Medea's fall was not of her own making
<chi> he made his own problems
<chi> he is ignorant of reality
<pi> i don't think it quite gives a good name to anyone
<aleph> he is the irrational one
<DWROB> and how rational and well-meaning men are?
<bet1> he thinks he knows it all
<DWROB> yes -- he is so deluded it's funny
<mu> yes
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<aleph> he has put her into a situation in a foreign country that she cannot change
<gamma> he finds a way to rationalize every part of his story
<rho> tragic flaw
<bet1> and she sits -listens and plots
<beta> she put emotion in front of reason
<eta> but in the end find himself screwed
<DWROB> He is so full of himself -- "I'm a hero!! Hurrah for me!" (Every man's secret pronouncement? :-)
<he> When he was trying to rationalize his actions was quite funny\
<aleph> that's what women do
<abc> all these male characters cheat and their wives are all faithful ... i find that funny
<tau> i've known guys like Jason :)
<beta> *emotion
<mu> he didn't care about exiling his kids
<rho> premeditated
<DWROB> tau: they always have excellent hair
<DWROB> But I digress
<bet1> and small ... .
<gamma> he isn't even thankful for the help she gave him and sacrifices she made
<DWROB> right
<aleph> technically he did not think about his kids first because he did not even come to see them
<pi> haha
<abc> ill bet ... there are many guys like him
<eta> he considered his kids as kinda 'in the past' right?
<DWROB> eta: yes, and how uncommon is that?
<omega> sheep's wool
<rho> he takes her for granted
<DWROB> So, as a tragic hero, Jason has certain problems
<vav> then pays for it
<mu> very common today
<rho> all do
<vav> Medea
<delta> yes
<DWROB> Like, for example, we DON'T sympathize with him
<dalet> Karma
<kappa> yes like always
<vav> true
<yod> not at all
<delta> exactly
<rho> he left her
<aleph> no, he seems to get the best of everything until it catches up with him
<abc> he has problems ... i mean he abandoned his wife and all his children
<chi> why did she fall for such an idiot that she had to save so many times
<lambda> But it hard to sympathize with anybody
<bet1> hes so shallow it seems
<DWROB> Euripedes makes hi the hero in formal or structural terms, but he is also a discredit to his gender for being such a lunk head
<beta> no he doesn't deserve sympathy
<rho> yea when their stupid
<tau> i sympathize with Medea for being abandoned by Jason
<eta> because he come over on a boat ... looked interesting.. probably
<gamma> he always came out of the situation clean
<mu> i agree
<DWROB> The Greek men must have squirmed watching this guy prance around in hero-mode
<vav> haha
<abc> no kidding
<aleph> he cannot come out the hero in the end
<pi> was Jason portrayed this same way in the story of the fleece?
<DWROB> What would be the point of setting it up that way?
<kappa> It probably hit home with quite a few of the Greeks
<epsilon> ya that everyone will turn out ok in the end, including Medea and the kids
<epsilon> he thinks he knows everything
<epsilon> no because he drove Medea into this
<epsilon> if it weren't for him Medea would of never done or thought of the awful things she did
<rho> a super hero with no powers
<bet1> kind of insulting
<DWROB> Why make him so unattractive?
<dalet> yea, but back then women weren't full citizens, so what did it matter?
<dalet> they must have thought Euripedes was mad
<beta> unattractive how?
<aleph> to make people sit up and notice what you have created
<tau> to arouse sympathy for Medea
<kappa> To make sure they understand they need to watch themselves
<nu> to show how unappealing it is when you act that way
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<DWROB> dalet: true, but that means men are in danger of thinking themselves too grand
<mu> he came out a troubled man at the end due to his wrong doings
<yod> him leaving her with the kids
<bet1> to make him more human
<vav> so Medea would look more clever
<rho> teach the Greek men of arrogance
<beta> looks or brains?
<abc> he had neither
<def> he is a selfish individual
<def> we he left her and paid for it
<DWROB> bet1: to imagine yourself more than human is HUBRIS and the gods hate that
<dalet> that's been a problem forever
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<mu> so they felt the need to punish him
<DWROB> Well, is there a case for Medea as a tragic figure?
<aleph> did Jason imagine himself as on the level of the gods?
<beta> common source of downfalls
<omicron> yes
<delta> pride is common with them?
<vav> yes
<nu> yes
<tau> yes
<bet1> he wasn't helped by the gods was it because of his hubris?
<mu> yes
<DWROB> aleph: yes, he thinks the gods love him, when really it was Medea who loved and helped him
<he> definitely
<kappa> quite possibly
<dalet> yes. she'll lost any way it goes
<mu> she lost her husband, her land and her kids
<abc> i think she is a tragic figure ... look at the way her husband treated her and their kids
<vav> She loses he husband and her children
<aleph> he didn't give proper credit to her then
<omega> very underhanded Jason could be
<omega> it is
<epsilon> ha
<epsilon> ?
<epsilon> always are
<epsilon> yes
<DWROB> abc: but does she suffer a FALL in the play?
<eta> except for the fact that she got what she wanted ... and didn't seem to care about her losses
<theta> she goes nuts
<phi>
<phi> is she happy in the end?
<he> But in the end it seems she end up on top
<omicron> Jason left her
<rho> she goes from getting dished on to dishing it
<DWROB> eta: that's important
<omicron> that was a fall
<bet1> yes she looses sanity
<kappa> yes
<beta> the only thing she really loses are her kids
<aleph> she is exiled
<theta> and kills almost everyone that was close to her
<gamma> her exile
<tau> a fall ... she looses everything
<DWROB> bet1: not so sure ...
<theta> and is exiled
<DWROB> tau: no!
<delta> she progresses in the end
<bet1> maybe just pure evil
<chi> because it was different, it challenges the mind set of the times
<chi> part of the definition fit like being of above average nobility because of Helios
<abc> She suffers a bit ... .however I feel she got her revenge don't you agree dwrob??
<tau> i don't understand
<gamma> she got what she wanted
<yod> j is the bigger loser of the 2
<mu> she was already dead
<tau> so Medea doesn't fall?
<rho> she loses her heart
<DWROB> theta: she is exiled but she has a place to go -- Athens, as guest of the king, whom she binds to her with an oath
<pi> she flees to Athens after words and doesn't get in any trouble
<lambda> she never had anything; Jason was the reason she had a home
<aleph> she is able to decide her fate, everyone else must live with what she does
<mu> but she has no friends or family
<beta> but couldn't she have taken her kids??
<bet1> she has a safe place
<dalet> she was exiled from her home.
<vav> she made sure she got that oath too
<DWROB> And she doesn't look too downtrodden at the end, flying off in her dragon chariot
<sigma> yes
<dalet> what a way to go
<gamma> yep
<pi> talk about wiping your slate clean
<vav> almost glad
<bet1> she is ready to move on
<kappa> Jason seems to be the big loser but he kind of sets himself up for it because he knows Medea and how she will react
<kaf> she is an a better situation in Athens
<delta> i agree
<rho> the limo to hell
<vav> to see him suffer
<dalet> she went out looking powerful
<DWROB> Why is she so triumphant? what has she won?
<beta> dr rob - couldn't she have taken her kids to Athens?
<rho> revenge
<omicron> revenge
<DWROB> She is powerful, definitely
<vav> pride
<theta> she won her revenge
<aleph> she has made Jason feel her pain
<kaf> Revenge
<bet1> her revenge
<pi> Jason's suffering
<mu> revenge
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<dalet> revenge
<delta> her own pride back
<vav> revenge
<he> She got what she wanted
<kappa> She got the final word, revenge
<tau> she got revenge against Jason ...
<eta> she has made Jason suffer
<DWROB> just revenge for the sake of revenge?
<epsilon> yes she goes crazy
<rho> yes
<mu> for her husband to suffer
<DWROB> leave crazy out -- too easy
<gamma> exactly
<vav> satisfaction
<omicron> she gets him back for leaving her
<tau> to make him sad
<nu> to prove a point
<bet1> no she did not want to be a laughing stock
<DWROB> "oh those crazy women and the things they do"
<aleph> Jason now has nothing in life
<dalet> insane
<abc> she won her honor back and I think that she fells fulfilled with her revenge
<pi> shes an evil sorceress
<kaf> That's all she wanted
<beta> yeah- i like that- she won satisfaction
<omicron> for real
<he> To make him suffer like he made her suffer
<eta> all she wanted was to make Jason suffer the way she has because of him
<DWROB> abc: HONOR -- there you go
<omega> what did she not get that she wanted
<omega> Jason was a dead beat of a person
<abc> thank you
<mu> she already showed she was evil when she killed her brother
<kaf> She even thought her children was worth the revenge
<DWROB> Jason dishonors her, and to win back her honor, she destroys him
<gamma> she wasn't going to be made the fool
<rho> is that the way to get honor
<pi> she won
<bet1> she did want pity at first
<omicron> so it is all about pride
<he> Its like she was getting back what Jason had taken from her
<aleph> but at the cost of her own children
<beta> ok, that makes sense
<lambda> and everything he loves gets destroyed as well
<DWROB> She proves that she is a princess, not a first wife to be thrown aside
<dalet> pride comes before a fall
<def> but the king feared for his daughter's life
<mu> true
<dalet> haughty
<DWROB> So at the start of the play, Jason is high,, and ends up low
<vav> very
<beta> pride is always the reason for the fall
<tau> so her downfall wasn't loosing her two boys?
<DWROB> Medea starts out low, and ends up on top
<delta> true
<abc> I feel she wanted her honor back more than she wanted Jason to suffer
<kappa> Quite dynamic characters
<kaf> I see
<mu> yes
<rho> she is low and ends up high
<bet1> yep
<dalet> that part is good!
<DWROB> It's not a tragedy for her.
<phi> revenge
<bet1> not at first
<gamma> he ends up the loser
<eta> or at least she ends up content
<beta> no, her downfall was her inability to reason
<pi> its sadistic victory
<he> no
<dalet> what about the children?!
<mu> not at all cause she was already at her lowest point
<pi> who cares about children?
<delta> in the end she has honor
<DWROB> He is a loser in every sense -- including being revealed as a fool by a women
<beta> dr rob - couldn't she have taken her kids to Athens?
<chi> she has won some dignity
<chi> she has respect for herself even if other don't have the same respect
<chi> it's a victory
<kaf> they were already doomed
<DWROB> beta: no, she must deprive Jason of EVERYTHING
<gamma> the same woman he made out to be THE FOOL
<aleph> so he is going to be looked down upon in society now
<rho> she thinks it is good for she has no heart
<dalet> killing the kids was a hard pill to swallow
<DWROB> his new wife, his new life, AND his old life
<DWROB> He is stripped bare
<beta> ok
<rho> they are still his life
<gamma> stuck between a rock and a hard place
<bet1> what happens to Corinth without Creon
<kappa> She took any remnant of his life away from him
<DWROB> It's the same kind of gesture as Odysseus killing every last suitor
<omicron> well what has she got
<omicron> ?
<DWROB> and the suitors' women
<abc> i find it funny that both of his lives get ruined by her
<aleph> we see it different because a woman is doing the killing
<omicron> a life in Athens and that's it?
<bet1> no hope
<beta> i on't understand that analogy
<beta> *don't
<vav> that makes the story interesting
<DWROB> she has her honor back -- she proves she is royal, powerful, not to be trifled with
<omicron> oh
<kaf> why would Jason care about the children now, he abandoned them before?
<beta> ok
<epsilon> yes
<epsilon> nothing
<epsilon> she has the oath she made with Aegeus
<dalet> if Jason didn't care for the kids, why kill them?
<sigma> and Medea is low and ends up lower
<kaf> yeah?
<DWROB> beta: I mean how extreme the revenge has to be -- a point is being made
<rho> their is no honor in murder
<beta> they re part of his OLD life
<iota> me too
<DWROB> sigma: no, she is riding in the Sun's dragon chariot at the end! She's not low at all!
<omicron> their life was so much different than ours
<delta> right
<bet1> high horse
<aleph> so she can start a new life
<kappa> She wasn't too happy to kill her own children
<DWROB> So whose side is right? Whose side is Euripedes on?
<omicron> Medea's
<dalet> evidently, Medea
<mu> Medea
<tau> Medea
<vav> Medea
<kaf> Medea's
<aleph> Medea's side - she let her win in the end
<gamma> Medea
<rho> not Jason's
<bet1> med
<delta> Medea's
<lambda> Medea; he showed her being on top
<he> Mede
<nu> Medea's
<delta> she avenged in the end
<DWROB> What about the children?
<kappa> Medea's
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<aleph> they believed in an afterlife
<dalet> dead
<vav> pawns
<pi> the children were a prop
<abc> Medea's because she avenge Jason to get her pride back
<DWROB> aleph: no
<bet1> small price to pay for revenge and honor
<aleph> the children will live on
<pi> yes pawns
<he> maybe she pays that off later
<kaf> He somewhat justifies her actions throughout the play
<kappa> they truly get screwed
<chi> they like to make big gestures
<chi> Medea's
<gamma> they were a sacrifice for her content
<DWROB> So Euripedes approves of Medea's actions?
<omega> new beginning
<omega> bot
<omega> they are in the fields
<omicron> they represent vengeance
<bet1> no not really
<omicron> payback
<dalet> i thought there was a place below the earth
<tau> i think so
<beta> yeah, he was sort of a feminist
<rho> it was all about Medea
<mu> yes
<delta> she did it for them because she didn't want anyone else to take revenge on them
<phi> they were the only thing he had left
<vav> I can't tell
<omega> the after life fields
<gamma> i believe so
<kappa> seems to
<DWROB> dalet: yes, but it's not very lively
<he> maybe she will have to answer E later in her life
<aleph> he shows Medea as a cunning clever woman - not exactly a wonderful picture
<abc> i don't know if he approves but i think he just tolerated her actions for revenge
<nu> she tolerated it
<eta> well ... well ... Jason is the tragic hero ... perhaps he was on his side ... and just sympathizing with him?
<iota> Medea
<iota> she doesn't care about them b/c they were doomed to exile
<iota> no
<pi> she viewed their lives as already being lost so she used them for her sadistic purposes
<DWROB> aleph: no, a monstrous picture to the woman-hating audience
<DWROB> What is E's point in writing such a play?
<sigma> Medea's
<sigma> poor kids
<aleph> don't trust women
<delta> teach a lesson
<tau> warning men about women?
<pi> don't mess with your woman
<rho> women's rights ha ha
<bet1> putting women in a different light?
<nu> to show what can happen when women are angry
<lambda> a warning
<psi> in a bad light
<kappa> To show the audience haw they act and why they shouldn't act that way
<he> To honor your word
<beta> to get feminist ideas out there for better equality
<DWROB> well, the men would have been in no danger of trusting women
<dalet> his point is Karma. you reap what u sow
<DWROB> he: good idea
<abc> knowing that a women can do just as much as men can
<beta> equality
<psi> that can be dangerous
<psi> dangerous
<pi> being a man is no excuse to be a fool
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<bet1> as a warning
<tau> don't step out on your wife
<he> kinda the old saying what ever you do comes back 10 fold
<kaf> recognition
<gamma> an oath as extremely important
<beta> yeah
<theta> to be loyal
<psi> what goes around comes around
<rho> all these stories are about lessons
<DWROB> Medea is on the side of the gods and of fate -- she is a witch, a magician, terrifying
<omicron> you reap what you sew
<bet1> giving men the golden rule
<eta> if you do bad things.. bad things will happen
<kappa> Being true to your word seems to be a strong theme
<beta> you make your bed and have to lie in it ...
<delta> pride is bad
<bet1> powerful woman
<DWROB> This accords with female stereotypes to a degree -- irrational, emotional, devious, etc.
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<psi> this plays into that
<beta> inability to reason
<sigma> don't trust men-cheaters!
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<psi> shows all the stereotypes of women
<epsilon> Medea
<epsilon> yes because Jason broke the vow of marriage
<epsilon> to show the power of women
<epsilon> ?
<abc> that's how she accomplished this ... the gods were on her side
<tau> of course all wrong (we might be emotional sometimes)
<chi> to challenge the mindset of the time
<mu> to a point
<aleph> but he ends the story with her on top
<vav> got booted
<DWROB> But the lesson here is for the men -- not to be so full of themselves ...
<rho> true
<DWROB> and to give the irrational, FATE, the gods, their due
<beta> right on!
<rho> true
<vav> which they are
<kappa> Pride is a dangerous thing too much and it bites back
<bet1> hell has no fury like a woman's scorn
<pi> but its hard when your this good looking
<kaf> the gods don't like pride
<psi> or not to cheat or else ... ..
<dalet> well, none of the men i know ever read this story
<DWROB> For Medea to symbolize or embody all that is a special slap int he face, a humiliation
<tau> most guys didn't get the lesson
<def> i didn't think she would kill her own children
<beta> sher: that's true!
<DWROB> The story was old, but E applies a religious interpretation to it
<mu> not to always look at themselves as heroes
<psi> he includes the gods
<vav> she doesn't take well to that
<abc> were the gods on her side because of what Jason did to her?
<eta> yes
<beta> yes
<kappa> yes
<bet1> does he add the gods help?
<DWROB> abc: yes, they hate oath breakers
<delta> hard to believe cheating was going on back then
<pi> the Sun god was on her side because she was his granddaughter
<abc> ok
<aleph> so what's the religious aspect?
<DWROB> pi: that too
<abc> i thought so
<omicron> Medea didn't break an oath with her first family?
<DWROB> aleph: do not be proud, honor the gods, keep oaths -- all basic religious precepts
<omicron> she left them
<abc> I knew the sun god was on her side
<omega> too much pride
<DWROB> Jason's problem is he thinks he is Sooooooo clever.
<aleph> so basically Jason broke all three
<rho> set of morals and ethics
<DWROB> He has a rationale for everything
<bet1> why don't they punish her for killing her brother?
<abc> he thought a was very sneaky
<beta> basic macho mentality
<DWROB> a good excuse (his career, basically)
<aleph> human nature to justify your actions
<delta> he sure does
<kaf> but M had to help him get the Fleece
<psi> well it didn't work to well
<iota> with the gods
<sigma> not to cheat on their wives only for personal gain
<DWROB> unfortunately, he's an idiot
<psi> haha
<DWROB> Odysseus he is not
<bet1> fortunate for Medea
<delta> true
<abc> not at all
<mu> not at all
<rho> Jason was never a hero
<lambda> very true
<DWROB> If O is one of the smartest characters ever, J is about the dumbest
<kappa> Odysseus was truly a clever and charming character
<gamma> Jason depended on everyone else
<def> women will get their way one way or another
<psi> he could never be the hero
<kappa> I agree
<DWROB> rho: but he was
<eta> man ... he should have thought about who he was hurting
<psi> he is getting played the whole way through
<DWROB> a hero, that is
<he> Medea was the smart one here
<abc> i concur with that
<delta> well said dr. rob
<rho> not in my eyes
<beta> he can't be the dumbest guy in the world- he used M to get the golden fleece
<DWROB> He's just not very smart
<aleph> he was a hero that fell
<xi> yes
<xi> that is true
<he> Yeah but he didn't get the Fleece himself
<psi> a fallen hero
<mu> who was he a hero to
<beta> never a hero
<rho> ok fallen hero
<kaf> so a tragic hero doesn't have to be clever
<dalet> but Medea was a black sheep of her own family
<DWROB> I mean, neither was Achilles -- you don't have to be smart to be a hero, necessarily
<he> he had to use a woman
<psi> i didn't see the usual hero aspects in old Greek in this story
<mu> how was he a hero
<DWROB> he: a woman -- yes
<abc> its hard to think of Jason as a hero because he was so dumb
<aleph> just above average
<gamma> but you can't rely on everyone else and be a hero either
<DWROB> mu: he did hero stuff, went on a quest, fought monsters, yada yada
<bet1> he was just a text book hero
<pi> hes like a guy who was a hero it gave him a big head and he screwed it all up
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<epsilon> yes!
<epsilon> how did Medea not break an oath when leaving her family
<mu> with the help of Medea
<DWROB> OK, let's look a some quotations from this rich text ... .
<aleph> hero's should stay humble or they will fall
<chi> but he is so wrong
<chi> true
<chi> you do have to be realistic to be a hero
<eta> a tragic hero and a hero we see today are quite often different
<pi> yeah were the gods not pissed that she dissed her home country
<rho> so did johnny apple seed
<DWROB> here's Medea talking to the chorus of women ... .
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<DWROB> We women are are the most unfortunate creatures.
<DWROB> Firstly, with an excess of wealth it is required
<DWROB> For us to buy a husband and take for our bodies
<DWROB> A master; for not to take one is even worse.
<DWROB> And now the question is serious whether we take
<DWROB> A good or a bad one; for there is no easy escape
<omega> witty
<DWROB> For a woman, nor can she say no to her marriage.
<psi> maybe they wanted her to do it
<DWROB> She arrives among new modes of behavior and manners,
<DWROB> And needs prophetic power, unless she has learned at home,
<DWROB> How best to manage him who shares her bed with her.
<def> it's sad that he left for his pwn personal gain and ended up losing on all sides
<DWROB> And if we work out all this well and carefully,
<DWROB> And the husband lives with us and lightly bears his yoke,
<DWROB> Then life is enviable. If not, I'd rather die.
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<yod> strong words
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<beta> in other words - it never works out
<dalet> she compares being a wife to being a slave
<DWROB> Yes
<rho> fatal attraction some what
<aleph> basically women must figure out how to control they lives through their husbands
<DWROB> What do you think of this speech?
<eta> something you just wouldn't see written back in those times
<pi> yeah it really gives a glance at the standards of their culture
<he> The man has to be in the relationship with his all
<beta> it is compelling
<vav> like it
<gamma> a woman's life was mapped out for her and if it went array she was screwed
<kappa> interesting point of view, probably because of the time it was written
<delta> she feels her oath was strong and she really loved him she was hurt
<tau> i find it depressing
<aleph> it makes you sympathize with Medea
<pi> it makes what Jason did all the worse
<abc> Is she saying that she would rather die than be with a husband like Jason??
<mu> she referred to them as creatures
<bet1> she is a strong woman it probably surprises women of the time
<DWROB> eta: yes, it looks like a modern feminist viewpoint. Is that what E is trying to convey?
<dalet> she wont take any ill treatment from Jason
<beta> yes!
<rho> she thought outside the box
<aleph> it was the truth of what women faced
<yod> no
<pi> E is telling us to treat our women well
<beta> E has been considered the first feminist
<chi> she is giving us a profile of the lives women had back then
<DWROB> (hint: it's NOT feminist OR modern!)
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<bet1> its true
<kappa> Possibly but he really emphasizes Jason's stupidity and dumb actions
<mu> that's harsh
<DWROB> beta: I would disagree strongly with that assessment
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<bet1> its true for the time
<DWROB> Consider for a moment -- what is Medea up to here?
<DWROB> What's she doing?
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<yod> i don't see feminist in this
<sigma> does says
<beta> what does this mean then = (hint: it's NOT feminist OR modern!)
<aleph> trying to plot against Jason
<kappa> She is getting others on her side
<vav> getting her revenge
<rho> murder
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<nu> she is spreading discontent
<bet1> trying to turn the women against Jason
<pi> shes seeking revenge, regaining honor, and cleaning her slate
<eta> she is just trying to please herself
<kaf> shows how clever she is
<delta> setting him up for the kill
<he> She is setting her plan
<gamma> rallying the other women in the chorus
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<psi> she is working them
<DWROB> gamma: yes
<xi> yeah ...
<xi> she is trying to get ppl to see her side of the story
<DWROB> she wants them to support her, not betray her. How does she win them over?
<chi> showing that she has tried to fit into their idea of a woman
<bet1> she needs someone to get her back
<kappa> Like starting a riot, just gets people to see things in a different viewpoint
<he> yes
<kaf> she was plotting her revenge even then
<delta> stating things that they agree
<delta> with
<DWROB> She is plotting, yes
<nu> by turning them against all men
<beta> getting them to realize they have probably all been cheated on!
<kappa> Maybe not completely different but at least slightly
<dalet> she wins them over by making Jason out of a betrayer
<omega> whats em to pay
<gamma> but letting idiot Jason tell his story and her rebuttal
<aleph> by making them look at their own fates
<bet1> uprising of men
<DWROB> She is also telling the women EXACTLY what they want to hear
<bet1> never mind
<mu> by saying she is right
<DWROB> she is manipulating them.
<aleph> making the women realize they would do the same thing
<beta> yes
<lambda> by showing how shes right
<abc> she makes them understand how she has been betrayed
<pi> shes smart
<bet1> appealing to their wants
<rho> as women do
<DWROB> They would turn on her if she were frank about her plans
<chi> by saying she want to die
<dalet> the women were oppressed enough
<kappa> She proves herself to be clever but it also means that the Greek men should be aware of what could be happening
<bet1> shes crafty
<eta> as anyone would do
<beta> she's playing them all like puppets
<rho> shes a woman
<yod> very crafty
<kaf> she doesn't need them, does she?
<DWROB> So it seems naive to me to read this as a feminist manifesto -- it is a piece of clever manipulation
<dalet> Medea was slicker than Eve
<kappa> Manipulation seems to be a strong point
<beta> and witty!
<xi> that was smart of her
<DWROB> Here's another example ... ..
<delta> all a part
<delta> of
<delta> the
<def> she wants her own satisfaction
<delta> plot
<mu> i agree fully
<bet1> she is very smart appose to her ex
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 4 time(s).
<DWROB> Jason, I beg you to be forgiving towards me
<DWROB> For hat I said, It is natural for you to bear with
<DWROB> My temper, since we have had so much love together.
<DWROB> I have talked to myself about this and I have
<DWROB> Reproached myself. "Fool" I said, "why am I so mad?
<DWROB> Why am I set against those who have planned wisely?
<DWROB> Why make myself an enemy of the authorities
<DWROB> And of my husband, who does the best thing for me
<DWROB> By marrying royalty and having children who
<DWROB> Will be as brothers to my own? What is wrong with me?
<DWROB> Let me give up anger, for the gods are kind to me.
<DWROB> Have I not children, and do I not know that we
<DWROB> In exile from our country must be short of friends?"
<DWROB> When I considered this I saw that I had shown
<DWROB> Great lack of sense, and that my anger was foolish.
<DWROB> Now I agree with you. I think that you are wise
<DWROB> In having this other wife as well as me, and I
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<DWROB> Was mad. I should have helped you in these plans of yours,
<DWROB> Have joined in the wedding, stood by the marriage bed,
<DWROB> Have taken pleasure in attendance on your bride.
<DWROB> But we women are what we are,-- perhaps a little
<DWROB> Worthless; and you men must not be like us in this,
<DWROB> Nor be foolish in return when we are foolish.
<DWROB> Now I give in, and admit that I was wrong.
<DWROB> I have come to a better understanding now.
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<kappa> She is playing him like a puppet and he falls for it, proving his lack of intellect
<mu> she is setting him up to let her and his kids back in his heart so he will agree to let the princess receive the gifts
<rho> she talks to herself - first sign of losing it
<DWROB> Question of the evening: Just how dumb is Jason?
<he> This is the key part of the plan. She knew Jason would believe her
<omicron> she builds him up just to shoot him down
<aleph> he actually believes her
<DWROB> rho: no, she talks to Jason
<nu> pretty dumb
<psi> she is playing the game
<gamma> she knows he is naive
<dalet> He is no dumber than modern-day men
<bet1> she is appealing to his pride now
<tau> trying to get Jason to be her friend ... just part of the plan to get her kids in there
<DWROB> aleph: that's how dumb!
<mu> very dumb
<eta> yes very very dumb
<psi> she is playing he for a fool
<DWROB> really, really dumb!
<he> She knows that he would believe her is an idiot
<beta> playing him like a pawn
<mu> how could he think all of sudden she has had a change of heart
<DWROB> he: how does she manipulate him?
<lambda> really dumb; he left her and now he thinks she gonna be cool
<beta> *him
<dalet> women have to manipulate men and make them feel as though they're on top all the time
<delta> she is trying to play him and convince him
<psi> that women for ya
<aleph> he doesn't know her well enough to know she is plotting to get him
<DWROB> psi: and men :-)
<abc> pretty dumb ... because he was pretending to be nice to strike her revenge on Jason and Glauce, and she puts the poison on dress she gives her
<kappa> Making him think he is right and feeding his ego
<mu> by saying he is right for marrying again
<vav> She tells him what he wants to hear
<he> She reaffirms him so that he feels like he is the one on top
<psi> she makes him seem like he won
<tau> didn't she still refer to Jason as her "husband"?
<DWROB> kappa: exactly
<pi> she offers that threesome, how could he not believe her?
<beta> she has always stood by him, how is he to know any different
<psi> like he would have the best of both worlds
<DWROB> you can't go wrong feeding a man's ego
<chi> she is making Jason feel that she knows where he is coming from, but I think she is being facetious
<chi> dumb enough to believe her
<beta> that's for sure
<psi> he is stupid
<aleph> he believes her because he believes he has done the right thing
<xi> very
<bet1> he believes it all willfully
<dalet> you are revealing the best trick in the book for women
<DWROB> This passage makes me want to laugh or scream, and I'm not even an ancient Greek
<phi> he is always looking for gullible written on the ceiling
<dalet> darn
<kaf> she made him feel that he had gotten his point across
<abc> how could he not realize that she was plotting something
<kappa> building him up to tear him down
<beta> obviously she says all the sarcastically
<he> no kidding
<bet1> he wants to believe her
<he> I don't know if I'm mad a Medea or Jason for believing her
<DWROB> "Well, I'm glad Medea finally came around to my way of thinking!" Idiot
<dalet> she made him feel wise and on top
<beta> laugh or scream - how about both!
<vav> haha
<kappa> I agree I read it and laughed
<aleph> she stroked his ego
<kappa> It was too obvious a set up
<delta> haha
<bet1> so blinded by hi self-love
<kaf> he does believe her because he strongly believe he is rational
<rho> used his flaw
<yod> is this typical line of thinking back then?
<kappa> Which could have been E's plan
<eta> she has to be a meeeaan woman to be able to say all that with a straight face and be plotting all that
<DWROB> yes -- rational -- but he is proof that rationality can be it's own kind of madness
<abc> Jason is not the sharpest tool in the shed ... in fact I don't think he is even in the shed
<def> he is super-slow
<def> but make a man feel right and you aren't gonna hear another complaint come up out him
<beta> that right -- used his own flaw against him
<DWROB> One more quote ... .
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 4 time(s).
<dalet> Jason is no slower than many men
<yod> like sling blade = Jason
<DWROB> JASON May a Fury for the children's sake destroy you,
<gamma> he believed this was her way to rationalize
<DWROB> And Justice, requiter of blood.
<DWROB> MEDEA What heavenly power lends an ear
<DWROB> To a breaker of oaths, a deceiver?
<DWROB> JASON O, I hate you you, murderess of children,
<DWROB> MEDEA Go to your palace. Bury your bride.
<DWROB> JASON I go, with two children to mourn for.
<DWROB> MEDEA Not yet do you feel it. Wait for the future.
<DWROB> JASON Oh, children I loved!
<DWROB> MEDEA I loved them, you did not.
<DWROB> JASON You loved them, and killed them.
<DWROB> MEDEA To make you feel pain.
<chi> if you want to gain something from him
<DWROB> JASON Oh, wretch that I am, how I long
<DWROB> To kiss the dear lips of my children!
<DWROB> MEDEA Now you would speak to them, now you would kiss them.
<DWROB> Then you rejected them.
<DWROB> JASON Let me, I beg you,
<DWROB> Touch my boys' delicate flesh.
<DWROB> MEDEA I will not. Your words are all wasted.
<DWROB> JASON O God, do you hear it, this persecution,
<DWROB> These sufferings from this hateful
<DWROB> Woman, this monster, murderess of children?
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<DWROB> This kind of back-and-forth is called a "agon" and E is famous for them
<beta> now he's sorry
<DWROB> an agon
<omega> it nice
<mu> she adds hurt to his pain by not letting him see his kids one last time
<he> There going at it
<gamma> he has nothing left
<kappa> He seems to start to feel his stupidity and pain
<bet1> she is stiff
<abc> he feels bad yet he was the one that left
<rho> he is in shock
<dalet> Jason is a dead-beat dad
<beta> she is pouring salt into the wound
<bet1> she doesn't feel for him at all
<aleph> Jason now realizes he has lost everything
<rho> cold hearted
<kaf> She is only telling the truth
<bet1> no mercy given
<DWROB> One thing Aristotle said was that the tragic figure understands at the end what he/she has done wrong. Does Jason get it at the end?
<delta> he realizes what really happened
<dalet> i love when M tells him to go and bury his bride!
<tau> i find it kind-of funny
<DWROB> does he?
<he> Yes
<mu> yes
<aleph> no
<bet1> ?
<beta> no, but he;s sorry nonetheless
<kappa> He seems to be on the verge of getting it
<lambda> no
<DWROB> sorry for himself isn't sorry
<eta> oh yes
<rho> maybe not
<delta> he still thinks she was wrong and he was right
<dalet> M is so cynical!
<vav> no
<abc> why does Jason all of a sudden feel bad for what he did??? he could not have loved his children that much or he would not have left in the first place???
<bet1> he is tormented but maybe non the wiser
<he> He realized he was a bad person
<DWROB> delta: exactly
<eta> he has to live on with that feeling
<gamma> no, but he still is concerned with himself
<omicron> more than likely he doesn't understand why it happened
<omega> yes
<he> oh
<kaf> he doesn't get it
<DWROB> abc: as she points out
<he> still that dumb huh
<tau> hehe never admits fault
<tau> oops ... he
<DWROB> What about all his calling of the gods here?
<kaf> good that she denied him right to bury the children
<DWROB> doesn't that help?
<beta> there's the pride again
<eta> he would probably rather be dead than feel the way he feels right then
<he> Trying to do something
<vav> no the gods are on her side
<aleph> it's a last attempt
<bet1> not really
<mu> nope
<rho> no
<he> he can't do anything else
<delta> no they are partial to Medea
<beta> no, they don't like him
<aleph> he still thinks they helped him with everything
<kaf> he is an oath breaker
<abc> hes trying to make the gods forgive him for his actions
<bet1> its over and done with
<chi> she known how to hurt her
<chi> him
<chi> he's probably too confused in the end to do anything
<chi> they have turned their back on him already
<psi> i bet he would
<DWROB> It seems like he hasn't learned.
<he> He has no cred. any more
<rho> he stepped out of line first
<psi> he is in shock
<DWROB> He is a pathetic specimen.
<beta> yes
<yod> haha
<psi> he has lost everything he has
<beta> to say the leas
<vav> yep
<he> some people never learn
<bet1> waste of a hero
<psi> its like he caught her cheating on him
<kappa> He is more pathetic than anyone I know
<DWROB> A warning to all men, perhaps -- don't be this big a moron.
<dalet> Jason went from sugar to sh___
<xi> no
<xi> he is blaming the gods
<xi> he wants them to sympathize with him
<DWROB> indeed
<psi> i will remember this
<beta> *men never learn
<tau> does he become king since Creon also dies? was he next in line?
<vav> not a hero
<psi> next time i cheat on my girl friend
<bet1> someone has to set an example
<DWROB> good plan, er, sort of
<abc> i don't think anyone can be this much of a moron
<bet1> bad example
<eta> and she sure did set one hell of an example
<DWROB> abc: oh well, keep an eye out
<abc> i will
<DWROB> That's it for tonight!
<rho> you would know
<yod> enjoyed it
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<psi> ok
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<aleph> good night
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<psi> sorry i was late
<vav> can you tell us again when the test will be up
<dalet> good reading
<abc> tell next week
<psi> computer crashed
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<delta> see ya thanks
<kaf> good night
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<psi> good night
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<DWROB> vav: noon -- watch the forum in the morning for details
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<abc> gn
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<vav> thanks
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<omega> great
<omega> 6pm to 6pm thur to sat
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<beta> bye ya'll
<eta> alright that was my question,,,
<eta> later
<DWROB> omega: no, no -- I'll give the time tomorrow
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<def> but the chorus agreed with M
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<xi> good night
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