Chat: ENGL 2111 (World Literature I) Winter 2005

Chat 6: Euripedes, Medea

Euripedes, Medea

[00:00] --- Thu Feb 10 2005

[20:01] <DWROB> A word about the midterm

[20:02] <DWROB> I will post instructions on the forum tomorrow morning. The exam will be open 36 hours, from noon tomorrow to midnight Friday

[20:03] <pi> do you have to take it all at once when you start?

[20:03] <DWROB> That gives you two evenings to work on it

[20:03] <pi> or can you come back to it any time in those 36

[20:03] <chi> ?

[20:03] <DWROB> You can save and return later

[20:03] <GSUser> i have the wrong name

[20:03] <vav> Good

[20:03] <pi> sweet

[20:03] <DWROB> But after I lock it, there will be no retakes, of course.

[20:03] mu (~mu@ joined #2111web.

[20:03] <he> of course

[20:03] <pi> of course

[20:04] eta (~eta@ joined #2111web.

[20:04] <DWROB> GSUser: use the command /nick followed by your right name

[20:04] <beta> how many questions will it be?

[20:04] <kaf> format?

[20:04] <DWROB> Any questions? It's on Inquisition just like the quizzes -- you'll see the link when you look for it.

[20:04] <DWROB> Three identification/discussion questions

[20:04] <vav> can you give us a sample question?

[20:04] <DWROB> no

[20:04] <DWROB> :-)

[20:04] <pi> haha

[20:05] <kaf> only 3

[20:05] <DWROB> look tomorrow and all will be revealed

[20:05] <DWROB> 3, so don't blow one

[20:05] <bet> are you looking for essay type answers

[20:05] <DWROB> yes

[20:05] <pi> it covers Gilgamesh through Medea

[20:05] <DWROB> yes

[20:05] <DWROB> Sumeria through Medea

[20:05] <pi> oh yeah

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[20:05] <kaf> how long should the response be

[20:05] <DWROB> Don't forget our watery friend Enki

[20:05] <beta> how long will the essays need to be?

[20:05] omega ( joined #2111web.

[20:06] <DWROB> It's supposed to be equivalent to an hour-long test.

[20:06] <theta> ... long enough to answer the question ...

[20:06] <DWROB> exactly

[20:06] <DWROB> But no novels -- figure an hour

[20:06] <DWROB> All right -- Medea. Any initial reactions to this play?

[20:06] <DWROB> Did it hold your attention at least?

[20:06] <vav> loved it

[20:06] <delta> a woman's scorn

[20:06] <theta> i liked it ... she reminds me of some past girlfriends ...

[20:06] <vav> yes

[20:06] <tau> i liked it to

[20:06] <beta> she is wicked mean

[20:06] <kaf> yeah

[20:07] <aleph> it was a lot more interesting that I thought it would be

[20:07] <he> pretty messed up

[20:07] <bet> yes it was interesting

[20:07] <epsilon> I thought it was good

[20:07] <epsilon> yes

[20:07] <rho> yes

[20:07] <eta> alright..

[20:07] <omicron> kind of cruel

[20:07] <DWROB> mean -- yes

[20:07] <kappa> The play is quite interesting because it comes from Medea's perspective

[20:07] <gamma> it was a completely different kind of story

[20:07] <DWROB> cruel -- yes

[20:07] <epsilon> it was a lot easier to read than the previous

[20:07] <beta> yeah, there was so much that happened - never a dull moment

[20:07] <DWROB> different from what?

[20:07] <pi> just a bunch of anger and murder

[20:07] <eta> the man was the cause of the woman's pain this time

[20:07] <dalet> it was good but showed selfishness

[20:07] <he> this story didn't end like most

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[20:07] <kappa> Different from what you would normally expect from the times

[20:07] <gamma> woman's dominance

[20:08] <pi> but if you look at Jason and Medea's history shes been his cause for pain in the past

[20:08] <beta> no, she was oppressed

[20:08] <tau> revenge against the man

[20:08] <rho> Jason was at his ex's mercy

[20:08] <aleph> the gods did not play an active role in the story

[20:08] <beta> that why she did those things

[20:08] <dalet> during the Greek times, hardly a woman ended up on top

[20:08] <DWROB> The victory of the woman is the shocking thing in the play, yes -- this would have really disgusted the Greeks

[20:08] <beta> the gods were more of a passive role

[20:08] <chi> how do we look at old chats?

[20:08] <chi> yes I enjoyed the new style

[20:08] <chi> the main character was a woman, and there was a darker side to the writing

[20:08] <beta> not front and center

[20:08] <bet> i like it

[20:08] <DWROB> The Greek male audience for this play would have been having fits

[20:08] <iota> easier to read than the others

[20:08] <iota> old crazy Medea

[20:08] <kappa> Its a lot for a woman to kill her children

[20:08] <aleph> Was the author trying to piss off the audience?

[20:08] <tau> disgusted the Greeks because the woman took charge?

[20:09] <DWROB> iota: you think she's crazy?

[20:09] <vav> I think so

[20:09] <beta> she was crazy

[20:09] <phi> pretty scary stuff, killin babies and what not

[20:09] <lambda> she goes crazy

[20:09] <mu> She is very crazy

[20:09] <dalet> i'm sure the audience didn't know whether to love Medea or hate her

[20:09] <bet> yes a little

[20:09] <xi> I liked it too

[20:09] <rho> yes to kill her own kids

[20:09] <DWROB> aleph: yes, in a way -- to make them look at themselves, maybe

[20:09] <delta> anger management problem

[20:09] <beta> no matter what my son's father could do, I would never kill my own son

[20:09] <kappa> She seems to have coherent thought but still be insane

[20:09] <DWROB> delta: but she manages it very well, and gets her revenge, and gets away with it

[20:09] <mu> at first i felt sorry for her but not after she did what she did

[20:10] <tau> Medea is very clever

[20:10] <vav> intellect

[20:10] <aleph> even though this is an old story, it seems like something that would happen today

[20:10] <dalet> she didn't have to kill the kids

[20:10] <delta> you're absolutely right

[20:10] <mu> but her pain is going to be her punishment

[20:10] <eta> but at least she got him back ... that's all that ever mattered to her

[20:10] <omicron> she doesn't feel bad about it?

[20:10] <bet> no

[20:10] <vav> he does a little

[20:10] <beta> no revenge is sweet enough to kill your own children

[20:10] <kappa> Maybe she's a little "off her rocker" but still managing to think coherently and be cruel

[20:10] <vav> for her children

[20:10] <omicron> i agree

[20:10] <epsilon> she is witty

[20:10] <rho> she has no conscience

[20:10] <kaf> She paid a grand price for revenge

[20:10] <eta> it is to her apparently!!

[20:10] <delta> her anger seemed to have worried a lot of powerful people why?

[20:10] <DWROB> I saw a Broadway production of Medea two years ago, and they made M out to be like Susan Smith, the SC woman who killed her kids over boyfriend stuff.

[20:10] <sigma> Jason had every bit as much cause in his own pain as Medea

[20:10] <sigma> witty

[20:10] <dalet> i loved the craziness of it

[20:10] <omega> did he care

[20:11] <DWROB> Does that seem like a fair comparison?

[20:11] <beta> that's a good analogy

[20:11] <aleph> this story is more serious

[20:11] <mu> she is somewhat but Susan Smith was ill

[20:11] <he> i don't see how a mother can do that

[20:11] <DWROB> Remember Susan Smith?

[20:11] <beta> both crazy

[20:11] <rho> mind twisting woman

[20:11] <pi> he didn't love her anymore does that deserve the pain she gave him?

[20:11] <aleph> yes

[20:11] <vav> YES

[20:11] <kaf> Yes

[20:11] <bet> no comparison

[20:11] <he> yeah

[20:11] <omicron> very similar

[20:11] <lambda> they were both a little crazy

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[20:11] <kaf> good comparison

[20:11] <tau> didn't Susan smith hear voices?

[20:11] <delta> even though it was cruel she really felt she had good intentions

[20:11] <kappa> very little

[20:11] <iota> well ... yes

[20:11] <iota> she kills her own children to get back at Jason

[20:11] <aleph> back in her time, she had no where to go

[20:11] <gamma> scary women

[20:11] <dalet> it was not the same comparison but

[20:11] <chi> woman didn't have any rights and she was foreign, this piece was a challenge to the times

[20:11] <chi> there was no one that dared cross her after she killed her own children

[20:11] <rho> the kids were innocent

[20:11] <DWROB> bet: why no comparison?

[20:11] <beta> yeah - the devil told her to do it

[20:11] <he> hehe

[20:11] <aleph> she killed her own brother to be with Jason , and he leaves her for another wife.

[20:11] <kaf> Everything was about getting back at Jason

[20:11] <bet> she murdered

[20:11] <DWROB> beta: that was another woman

[20:11] <DWROB> she really WAS crazy

[20:12] <bet> he just wanted to be prince

[20:12] <mu> Only one difference Susan was punished for what she did

[20:12] <kappa> He "intended" well

[20:12] <dalet> M would have suffered today just like Susan did

[20:12] <rho> Medea was rewarded

[20:12] <he> intended was just a bunch of bull

[20:12] <kaf> She killed her own brother

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[20:12] <DWROB> mu: Smith was a pathetic stupid fluff brain -- Medea is not like that.

[20:12] <kappa> hence the quotation marks

[20:12] <vav> true

[20:12] <DWROB> Medea is simply ruthless

[20:12] <aleph> she is considered clever

[20:12] <bet> he wanted the best for his sons also, she didn't care

[20:12] <delta> I agree good intentions so she thought

[20:12] <mu> or crazy

[20:12] <aleph> Even the king was afraid of her

[20:13] <dalet> the irony is how the Gods were on M's side and let her get away w/it

[20:13] <DWROB> yes, and not afraid enough

[20:13] <bet> she was a witch

[20:13] <eta> she got her point across

[20:13] <tau> everyone is knocking on Medea (for good reason) but Jason is the one that drove her to that point ... he abandoned her

[20:13] <omega> kinda like war of the roses the mood of the story

[20:13] <DWROB> dalet: good -- why ARE the gods on her side????

[20:13] <phi> yes

[20:13] <phi> she killed her kids!

[20:13] <phi> he left her to be royalty

[20:13] <vav> she was dead set on revenge

[20:13] <beta> yeah, he deserved what he got

[20:13] <he> I thought the god just didn't object to what she was doing

[20:13] <sigma> Medea's actions would parallel to that of S. Smith

[20:13] <pi> so does he deserve to have his children killed?

[20:13] <xi> yes

[20:13] <gamma> he broke an oath

[20:13] <kappa> She was odd because she was a decent liar, great intellect and good at going after what she wanted-revenge

[20:13] <vav> he betrayed there bonds

[20:13] <chi> no, there was more here. She was betrayed after she had done so much for Jason

[20:13] <chi> She had saved his life and helped him so much and he just left her

[20:13] <chi> she did carry on conversations with herself

[20:13] <DWROB> gamma: what oath?

[20:13] <dalet> first, her grandfather is a god

[20:13] <aleph> isn't she somehow related to the gods?

[20:13] <delta> that's what i want to know why? were they so scared

[20:13] <bet> the gods did take pity on her

[20:14] <vav> marriage

[20:14] <lambda> she is the granddaughter of a god

[20:14] <gamma> between a man and wife

[20:14] <beta> of the sun god

[20:14] <epsilon> she was smart, Medea

[20:14] <epsilon> because Jason broke an oath

[20:14] <DWROB> bet: not pity -- they are obliged to her because she has done nothing to dishonor them

[20:14] <pi> are any of your parents divorced? maybe you should be killed to punish them for doing it

[20:14] <he> They just didn't mind what she was doing

[20:14] <beta> that's not the same

[20:14] <kaf> Zeus is on her side because he is the god who make sure oaths are abided by

[20:14] <rho> good point

[20:14] <DWROB> pi: few of our mothers measure up to Medea (fortunately

[20:14] <mu> But by killing her kids isn't that dishonoring them

[20:14] <DWROB> mu: no

[20:15] <delta> did they somehow know about her problem with anger beforehand

[20:15] <DWROB> because the children are already as good as dead

[20:15] <dalet> why not?

[20:15] <pi> I know but people hear are justifying Medea's actions because Jason left her

[20:15] <DWROB> They will be exiles

[20:15] <beta> yes, she was known as a sorcerer

[20:15] <vav> how so?

[20:15] <DWROB> Exiles in Greece meant truly homeless, at the mercy of strangers.

[20:15] <rho> Medea wanted nothing left of her marriage to Jason

[20:15] <mu> ok but they had a place to reside in

[20:15] <he> They would have to fend for themselves

[20:15] <sigma> sher: if he wanted what was best for his sons, then why wouldn't he want to be with their mother?

[20:15] <sigma> Jason broke his vows

[20:15] <sigma> vow of fidelity

[20:15] <DWROB> Unless you are a hero like Odysseus and you can charm your way along

[20:15] <tau> anyone ever had a spouse leave you? it hurts (but doesn't condone you killing your kids)

[20:15] <delta> but she already arranged a home in Athens

[20:15] <beta> and they had servants

[20:15] <dalet> sort of like that movie Beloved

[20:15] <aleph> how would they have been viewed had she not killed everyone or been exiled?

[20:15] <he> true true

[20:16] <DWROB> Yes, Jason broke his marriage vows and other vows and obligations to Medea

[20:16] <chi> because he broke his promise which is a dis to Zeus

[20:16] <chi> the marriage oath

[20:16] <chi> because they are exiled

[20:16] <pi> tau : Exactly

[20:16] <vav> but with her cleverness she and the kids could have made it in exile?

[20:16] <omicron> she must have not loved her kids

[20:16] <DWROB> This is not trivial -- he is an oath breaker, a dishonorable man, careless of his godly duties

[20:16] <omicron> i found that ridiculous and hard to understand

[20:16] <rho> he pays her price

[20:16] <omicron> they were her own kids

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[20:16] <kappa> Yes Jason was a bad person

[20:16] <DWROB> omicron: she loved them -- but they are already hopelessly doomed

[20:16] <aleph> so the story was to warn people that breaking an oath was worse than murder

[20:16] <delta> She did love her kids in a sick way she thought she was doing them a favor!!

[20:16] <beta> doomed how?

[20:17] <bet1> sorry I'm back

[20:17] <DWROB> kappa: bad as he is, he's even stupider than he is bad

[20:17] <gamma> she was more concerned about herself anyway

[20:17] <kaf> why hopelessly doomed?

[20:17] <omicron> that doesn't make any sense

[20:17] <he> they would always be known as Jason's exiled children

[20:17] <DWROB> beta: doomed to exile and dishonor

[20:17] <bet1> that's true he fell for her

[20:17] <kappa> Yes I agree he is stupider than he is bad

[20:17] <beta> oh, thanks

[20:17] <kaf> oh I see

[20:17] <he> ridiculed everywhere

[20:17] <omicron> i guess they thought different than we do

[20:17] <DWROB> he: yes, and the sons of the witch Medea, the barbarian woman

[20:17] <beta> stupid as he was he was known to be a smooth talker

[20:17] <DWROB> omicron: they certainly did

[20:17] <kappa> Which is quite a ridiculous combination

[20:17] <eta> Jason didn't care if there were exiled..

[20:17] <DWROB> kappa: what?

[20:17] <lambda> so they were doomed because of their mother

[20:17] <vav> didn't the father beg for his children to stay and was agreed?

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[20:18] <omega> she hated him that much.

[20:18] <omega> no killing equals no respect or entertainment

[20:18] <aleph> did she lose her honor because Jason left her?

[20:18] <sigma> how can at the mercy of strangers and dead be the same in the life of a child?

[20:18] <DWROB> vav: yes, but he's full of crap.

[20:18] <aleph> Everyone respected her before Jason left

[20:18] <chi> that wasn't the only reason she killed her kids

[20:18] <chi> he only cares about power and money

[20:18] <chi> exile

[20:18] <dalet> i thought they were to stay at the mercy of the princess

[20:18] <kappa> Stupid and bad is a bad combination

[20:18] <DWROB> :-)

[20:18] <kaf> He didn't care about them before

[20:18] <he> It did it for his own self satisfaction

[20:18] <kaf> he abandoned them

[20:18] <DWROB> dalet: that's just it -- M and the kids are at everyone's mercy if they lose Jason as protector

[20:18] <bet1> if he knew her capacity of evil why did he love her?

[20:18] <dalet> he put lust before his family

[20:18] <pi> wasn't Jason good in the story of the Golden Fleece

[20:19] <DWROB> Foreigners have no status in Greece -- they are regarded as barbarians

[20:19] <rho> the golden fleece

[20:19] <DWROB> Barely civilized, objects of contempt., maybe fear

[20:19] <he> Fear of the unknown

[20:19] <gamma> they had earned there way up in society

[20:19] <beta> not lust, greed

[20:19] <kaf> twice as bad for M, she is a woman

[20:19] <DWROB> And Medea is a witch -- dangerous

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[20:19] <tau> what strikes me is how no one in the play takes responsibility for anything that happens

[20:19] <theta> she's also a barbarian

[20:19] <epsilon> no she knew she wasn't doing them a favor, just to make Jason's life ruined

[20:19] <aleph> but everyone respected her before Jason left

[20:19] <DWROB> tau: Medea does!

[20:19] <dalet> he lusted after a young princess

[20:19] <kappa> Why is she a witch?-because she is clever and female

[20:19] <abc> Most of the characters of Greece in these stories abandoned their wives

[20:19] <DWROB> dalet: his trophy wife

[20:19] <tau> well, Jason doesn't

[20:19] <rho> what was M's and Jason's marriage built on?

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[20:20] <bet1> his royal trophy wife

[20:20] <DWROB> rho: sex and power

[20:20] <beta> but he did it to gain power and wealth

[20:20] <he> she made potions and rode dragons

[20:20] <kaf> how does she take responsibility

[20:20] <rho> not love

[20:20] <theta> she helped Jason with his quest

[20:20] <gamma> he was concerned with what benefit him and him alone

[20:20] <he> she possessed magic

[20:20] <pi> kappa : it says in the preface she was regarded as a sorceress

[20:20] <eta> yes.. royalty stuff

[20:20] <DWROB> he: never dump a woman who drives a dragon

[20:20] <dalet> exactly!

[20:20] <omicron> didn't M break an oath with her 1st husband

[20:20] <kappa> ok thanks I missed that

[20:20] <vav> haha\

[20:20] <he> haha

[20:20] <yod> she tries to smooth it over the whole time

[20:20] <delta> ha

[20:20] <lambda> naturally

[20:20] <yod> very clever imo

[20:20] <DWROB> yod: she is lying, manipulating, laying traps

[20:20] <pi> yeah Medea screwed over her country for Jason back with the Fleece

[20:20] <bet1> she wants his trust

[20:21] <tau> never dump a sorceress who killed her own brother

[20:21] <DWROB> All right -- who is the tragic hero in this play?

[20:21] <rho> their was fear through out for Medea

[20:21] <beta> plotting Jason's downfall

[20:21] <dalet> LOL! :-O

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[20:21] <gamma> Jason

[20:21] <bet1> Jason

[20:21] <he> Jason

[20:21] <eta> Jason

[20:21] <omicron> Jason

[20:21] <delta> Jason

[20:21] <beta> Jason

[20:21] <lambda> Jason

[20:21] <rho> Jason

[20:21] <aleph> Medea

[20:21] <nu> Jason

[20:21] <kaf> Medea

[20:21] <vav> she is playing to his ego then smashes it.

[20:21] <kappa> Jason

[20:21] <theta> Medea

[20:21] <dalet> Medea

[20:21] <DWROB> :-P

[20:21] <tau> Medea

[20:21] <he> you could say Medea

[20:21] <eta> uh oh..

[20:21] <bet1> hes not so great

[20:21] <yod> Medea

[20:21] <rho> Medea could be too

[20:21] <DWROB> Aristotle says this about tragic figures:

[20:21] <DWROB>

[20:21] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:21] <DWROB> -- in tragedy, the main character must be a person of

[20:21] <DWROB> high status who suffers a fall due to a character

[20:21] <DWROB> flaw ("hamartia"), generally a version of "hubris";

[20:21] <DWROB> in the end, the hero experiences enlightenment

[20:21] <DWROB> ("anagnoresis")

[20:21] <DWROB> -- audience members must "identify" with the tragic

[20:21] <DWROB> hero, that is, feel an emotional bond based on pity

[20:21] <DWROB> and fear at his fate; these emotions, thus

[20:21] <DWROB> artificially roused, are then purged ("catharsis")

[20:21] <DWROB>

[20:22] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:22] <chi> they also know she has killed people in her own family

[20:22] <chi> Jason

[20:22] <DWROB> his/her, not to prejudice matters

[20:22] <DWROB> hubris == pride

[20:22] <rho> in the gods eyes Medea is the main character

[20:22] <DWROB> Jason fits better?

[20:22] <DWROB> why?

[20:22] <bet1> he had selfish pride

[20:22] <DWROB> yes

[20:22] <he> They both take a fall from their status but Jason seems to have lost the most

[20:22] <vav> I agree

[20:22] <beta> b/c Medea is not a hero

[20:22] <abc> Why did he want Glauce so bad?

[20:22] <delta> He was full of pride

[20:22] <yod> everything he values is lost

[20:22] <omicron> he had a bigger downfall

[20:22] <omega> built on spells

[20:22] <omega> Jason

[20:22] <omega> but could Medea be linked in some kind of way to a hero of women?

[20:22] <DWROB> abc: political advancement

[20:22] <aleph> he is full of pride and makes a stupid decision

[20:22] <pi> because he brought himself doom because he was stupid

[20:22] <omicron> downfall

[20:22] <yod> he is the bigger loser

[20:22] <vav> he had everything then lost it

[20:22] <kappa> He seems to be a main character and he has a flaw-stupidity

[20:22] <DWROB> and she's younger (doesn't hurt)

[20:22] <aleph> he thought that he could have everything

[20:22] <gamma> because he is concerned with himself and his personal well-being

[20:22] <beta> power and wealth

[20:23] <eta> so who is it

[20:23] <DWROB> gamma: yes

[20:23] <aleph> he also didn't check with Medea first and so brought down all the anguish that he received

[20:23] <abc> thank you i thought it had to do with power and authority

[20:23] <bet1> he tried to have everything and ended up with nothing

[20:23] <DWROB> and what's worse, he thinks he can get away with this

[20:23] <DWROB> that it's OK

[20:23] <DWROB> that he has good reasons for it

[20:23] <yod> typical male way of thinking

[20:23] <lambda> so he is stupid and arrogant

[20:23] <epsilon> Jason

[20:23] <epsilon> because all he wanted was a better life with money and royalty

[20:23] <mu> selfish

[20:23] <beta> yeah, his excuse to Medea is that he's doing it for her and the kids

[20:23] <aleph> he has justified what he is doing and believes it is best

[20:23] <bet1> hes delusional

[20:23] <dalet> Well, who is it?

[20:23] <DWROB> He justifies it all to himself and to Medea (!)

[20:23] <rho> another woman

[20:23] <sigma> what exactly was the Golden Fleece

[20:23] <sigma> ha!

[20:23] <sigma> J

[20:23] <rho> he thought

[20:24] <delta> He thinks he did her a favor

[20:24] <vav> She doesn't buy it

[20:24] <he> How didn't he know that Medea was going to have to get him back some way

[20:24] <DWROB> bet1: he's an idiot, but a recognizably MALE kind of idiot

[20:24] <beta> a ship

[20:24] <bet1> ha so true

[20:24] <mu> gives males a bad name

[20:24] <DWROB> Remember when he is lecturing Medea about how irrational women are?

[20:24] <he> I got it

[20:24] <chi> Medea's fall was not of her own making

[20:24] <chi> he made his own problems

[20:24] <chi> he is ignorant of reality

[20:24] <pi> i don't think it quite gives a good name to anyone

[20:24] <aleph> he is the irrational one

[20:24] <DWROB> and how rational and well-meaning men are?

[20:24] <bet1> he thinks he knows it all

[20:24] <DWROB> yes -- he is so deluded it's funny

[20:24] <mu> yes

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[20:24] <aleph> he has put her into a situation in a foreign country that she cannot change

[20:24] <gamma> he finds a way to rationalize every part of his story

[20:25] <rho> tragic flaw

[20:25] <bet1> and she sits -listens and plots

[20:25] <beta> she put emotion in front of reason

[20:25] <eta> but in the end find himself screwed

[20:25] <DWROB> He is so full of himself -- "I'm a hero!! Hurrah for me!" (Every man's secret pronouncement? :-)

[20:25] <he> When he was trying to rationalize his actions was quite funny\

[20:25] <aleph> that's what women do

[20:25] <abc> all these male characters cheat and their wives are all faithful ... i find that funny

[20:25] <tau> i've known guys like Jason :)

[20:25] <beta> *emotion

[20:25] <mu> he didn't care about exiling his kids

[20:25] <rho> premeditated

[20:25] <DWROB> tau: they always have excellent hair

[20:25] <DWROB> But I digress

[20:25] <bet1> and small ... .

[20:25] <gamma> he isn't even thankful for the help she gave him and sacrifices she made

[20:25] <DWROB> right

[20:25] <aleph> technically he did not think about his kids first because he did not even come to see them

[20:25] <pi> haha

[20:25] <abc> ill bet ... there are many guys like him

[20:26] <eta> he considered his kids as kinda 'in the past' right?

[20:26] <DWROB> eta: yes, and how uncommon is that?

[20:26] <omega> sheep's wool

[20:26] <rho> he takes her for granted

[20:26] <DWROB> So, as a tragic hero, Jason has certain problems

[20:26] <vav> then pays for it

[20:26] <mu> very common today

[20:26] <rho> all do

[20:26] <vav> Medea

[20:26] <delta> yes

[20:26] <DWROB> Like, for example, we DON'T sympathize with him

[20:26] <dalet> Karma

[20:26] <kappa> yes like always

[20:26] <vav> true

[20:26] <yod> not at all

[20:26] <delta> exactly

[20:26] <rho> he left her

[20:27] <aleph> no, he seems to get the best of everything until it catches up with him

[20:27] <abc> he has problems ... i mean he abandoned his wife and all his children

[20:27] <chi> why did she fall for such an idiot that she had to save so many times

[20:27] <lambda> But it hard to sympathize with anybody

[20:27] <bet1> hes so shallow it seems

[20:27] <DWROB> Euripedes makes hi the hero in formal or structural terms, but he is also a discredit to his gender for being such a lunk head

[20:27] <beta> no he doesn't deserve sympathy

[20:27] <rho> yea when their stupid

[20:27] <tau> i sympathize with Medea for being abandoned by Jason

[20:27] <eta> because he come over on a boat ... looked interesting.. probably

[20:27] <gamma> he always came out of the situation clean

[20:27] <mu> i agree

[20:27] <DWROB> The Greek men must have squirmed watching this guy prance around in hero-mode

[20:27] <vav> haha

[20:27] <abc> no kidding

[20:27] <aleph> he cannot come out the hero in the end

[20:27] <pi> was Jason portrayed this same way in the story of the fleece?

[20:27] <DWROB> What would be the point of setting it up that way?

[20:27] <kappa> It probably hit home with quite a few of the Greeks

[20:28] <epsilon> ya that everyone will turn out ok in the end, including Medea and the kids

[20:28] <epsilon> he thinks he knows everything

[20:28] <epsilon> no because he drove Medea into this

[20:28] <epsilon> if it weren't for him Medea would of never done or thought of the awful things she did

[20:28] <rho> a super hero with no powers

[20:28] <bet1> kind of insulting

[20:28] <DWROB> Why make him so unattractive?

[20:28] <dalet> yea, but back then women weren't full citizens, so what did it matter?

[20:28] <dalet> they must have thought Euripedes was mad

[20:28] <beta> unattractive how?

[20:28] <aleph> to make people sit up and notice what you have created

[20:28] <tau> to arouse sympathy for Medea

[20:28] <kappa> To make sure they understand they need to watch themselves

[20:28] <nu> to show how unappealing it is when you act that way

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[20:28] <DWROB> dalet: true, but that means men are in danger of thinking themselves too grand

[20:28] <mu> he came out a troubled man at the end due to his wrong doings

[20:28] <yod> him leaving her with the kids

[20:28] <bet1> to make him more human

[20:28] <vav> so Medea would look more clever

[20:28] <rho> teach the Greek men of arrogance

[20:28] <beta> looks or brains?

[20:28] <abc> he had neither

[20:28] <def> he is a selfish individual

[20:28] <def> we he left her and paid for it

[20:28] <DWROB> bet1: to imagine yourself more than human is HUBRIS and the gods hate that

[20:29] <dalet> that's been a problem forever

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[20:29] <mu> so they felt the need to punish him

[20:29] <DWROB> Well, is there a case for Medea as a tragic figure?

[20:29] <aleph> did Jason imagine himself as on the level of the gods?

[20:29] <beta> common source of downfalls

[20:29] <omicron> yes

[20:29] <delta> pride is common with them?

[20:29] <vav> yes

[20:29] <nu> yes

[20:29] <tau> yes

[20:29] <bet1> he wasn't helped by the gods was it because of his hubris?

[20:29] <mu> yes

[20:29] <DWROB> aleph: yes, he thinks the gods love him, when really it was Medea who loved and helped him

[20:29] <he> definitely

[20:29] <kappa> quite possibly

[20:29] <dalet> yes. she'll lost any way it goes

[20:29] <mu> she lost her husband, her land and her kids

[20:29] <abc> i think she is a tragic figure ... look at the way her husband treated her and their kids

[20:29] <vav> She loses he husband and her children

[20:30] <aleph> he didn't give proper credit to her then

[20:30] <omega> very underhanded Jason could be

[20:30] <omega> it is

[20:30] <epsilon> ha

[20:30] <epsilon> ?

[20:30] <epsilon> always are

[20:30] <epsilon> yes

[20:30] <DWROB> abc: but does she suffer a FALL in the play?

[20:30] <eta> except for the fact that she got what she wanted ... and didn't seem to care about her losses

[20:30] <theta> she goes nuts

[20:30] <phi>

[20:30] <phi> is she happy in the end?

[20:30] <he> But in the end it seems she end up on top

[20:30] <omicron> Jason left her

[20:30] <rho> she goes from getting dished on to dishing it

[20:30] <DWROB> eta: that's important

[20:30] <omicron> that was a fall

[20:30] <bet1> yes she looses sanity

[20:30] <kappa> yes

[20:30] <beta> the only thing she really loses are her kids

[20:30] <aleph> she is exiled

[20:30] <theta> and kills almost everyone that was close to her

[20:30] <gamma> her exile

[20:30] <tau> a fall ... she looses everything

[20:30] <DWROB> bet1: not so sure ...

[20:30] <theta> and is exiled

[20:30] <DWROB> tau: no!

[20:30] <delta> she progresses in the end

[20:30] <bet1> maybe just pure evil

[20:30] <chi> because it was different, it challenges the mind set of the times

[20:30] <chi> part of the definition fit like being of above average nobility because of Helios

[20:30] <abc> She suffers a bit ... .however I feel she got her revenge don't you agree dwrob??

[20:30] <tau> i don't understand

[20:30] <gamma> she got what she wanted

[20:30] <yod> j is the bigger loser of the 2

[20:31] <mu> she was already dead

[20:31] <tau> so Medea doesn't fall?

[20:31] <rho> she loses her heart

[20:31] <DWROB> theta: she is exiled but she has a place to go -- Athens, as guest of the king, whom she binds to her with an oath

[20:31] <pi> she flees to Athens after words and doesn't get in any trouble

[20:31] <lambda> she never had anything; Jason was the reason she had a home

[20:31] <aleph> she is able to decide her fate, everyone else must live with what she does

[20:31] <mu> but she has no friends or family

[20:31] <beta> but couldn't she have taken her kids??

[20:31] <bet1> she has a safe place

[20:31] <dalet> she was exiled from her home.

[20:31] <vav> she made sure she got that oath too

[20:31] <DWROB> And she doesn't look too downtrodden at the end, flying off in her dragon chariot

[20:31] <sigma> yes

[20:31] <dalet> what a way to go

[20:31] <gamma> yep

[20:31] <pi> talk about wiping your slate clean

[20:31] <vav> almost glad

[20:31] <bet1> she is ready to move on

[20:31] <kappa> Jason seems to be the big loser but he kind of sets himself up for it because he knows Medea and how she will react

[20:32] <kaf> she is an a better situation in Athens

[20:32] <delta> i agree

[20:32] <rho> the limo to hell

[20:32] <vav> to see him suffer

[20:32] <dalet> she went out looking powerful

[20:32] <DWROB> Why is she so triumphant? what has she won?

[20:32] <beta> dr rob - couldn't she have taken her kids to Athens?

[20:32] <rho> revenge

[20:32] <omicron> revenge

[20:32] <DWROB> She is powerful, definitely

[20:32] <vav> pride

[20:32] <theta> she won her revenge

[20:32] <aleph> she has made Jason feel her pain

[20:32] <kaf> Revenge

[20:32] <bet1> her revenge

[20:32] <pi> Jason's suffering

[20:32] <mu> revenge

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[20:32] <dalet> revenge

[20:32] <delta> her own pride back

[20:32] <vav> revenge

[20:32] <he> She got what she wanted

[20:32] <kappa> She got the final word, revenge

[20:32] <tau> she got revenge against Jason ...

[20:32] <eta> she has made Jason suffer

[20:32] <DWROB> just revenge for the sake of revenge?

[20:32] <epsilon> yes she goes crazy

[20:32] <rho> yes

[20:32] <mu> for her husband to suffer

[20:32] <DWROB> leave crazy out -- too easy

[20:32] <gamma> exactly

[20:32] <vav> satisfaction

[20:32] <omicron> she gets him back for leaving her

[20:32] <tau> to make him sad

[20:32] <nu> to prove a point

[20:32] <bet1> no she did not want to be a laughing stock

[20:32] <DWROB> "oh those crazy women and the things they do"

[20:32] <aleph> Jason now has nothing in life

[20:32] <dalet> insane

[20:32] <abc> she won her honor back and I think that she fells fulfilled with her revenge

[20:33] <pi> shes an evil sorceress

[20:33] <kaf> That's all she wanted

[20:33] <beta> yeah- i like that- she won satisfaction

[20:33] <omicron> for real

[20:33] <he> To make him suffer like he made her suffer

[20:33] <eta> all she wanted was to make Jason suffer the way she has because of him

[20:33] <DWROB> abc: HONOR -- there you go

[20:33] <omega> what did she not get that she wanted

[20:33] <omega> Jason was a dead beat of a person

[20:33] <abc> thank you

[20:33] <mu> she already showed she was evil when she killed her brother

[20:33] <kaf> She even thought her children was worth the revenge

[20:33] <DWROB> Jason dishonors her, and to win back her honor, she destroys him

[20:33] <gamma> she wasn't going to be made the fool

[20:33] <rho> is that the way to get honor

[20:33] <pi> she won

[20:33] <bet1> she did want pity at first

[20:33] <omicron> so it is all about pride

[20:33] <he> Its like she was getting back what Jason had taken from her

[20:33] <aleph> but at the cost of her own children

[20:33] <beta> ok, that makes sense

[20:33] <lambda> and everything he loves gets destroyed as well

[20:33] <DWROB> She proves that she is a princess, not a first wife to be thrown aside

[20:33] <dalet> pride comes before a fall

[20:34] <def> but the king feared for his daughter's life

[20:34] <mu> true

[20:34] <dalet> haughty

[20:34] <DWROB> So at the start of the play, Jason is high,, and ends up low

[20:34] <vav> very

[20:34] <beta> pride is always the reason for the fall

[20:34] <tau> so her downfall wasn't loosing her two boys?

[20:34] <DWROB> Medea starts out low, and ends up on top

[20:34] <delta> true

[20:34] <abc> I feel she wanted her honor back more than she wanted Jason to suffer

[20:34] <kappa> Quite dynamic characters

[20:34] <kaf> I see

[20:34] <mu> yes

[20:34] <rho> she is low and ends up high

[20:34] <bet1> yep

[20:34] <dalet> that part is good!

[20:34] <DWROB> It's not a tragedy for her.

[20:34] <phi> revenge

[20:34] <bet1> not at first

[20:34] <gamma> he ends up the loser

[20:34] <eta> or at least she ends up content

[20:34] <beta> no, her downfall was her inability to reason

[20:34] <pi> its sadistic victory

[20:34] <he> no

[20:34] <dalet> what about the children?!

[20:34] <mu> not at all cause she was already at her lowest point

[20:34] <pi> who cares about children?

[20:34] <delta> in the end she has honor

[20:34] <DWROB> He is a loser in every sense -- including being revealed as a fool by a women

[20:35] <beta> dr rob - couldn't she have taken her kids to Athens?

[20:35] <chi> she has won some dignity

[20:35] <chi> she has respect for herself even if other don't have the same respect

[20:35] <chi> it's a victory

[20:35] <kaf> they were already doomed

[20:35] <DWROB> beta: no, she must deprive Jason of EVERYTHING

[20:35] <gamma> the same woman he made out to be THE FOOL

[20:35] <aleph> so he is going to be looked down upon in society now

[20:35] <rho> she thinks it is good for she has no heart

[20:35] <dalet> killing the kids was a hard pill to swallow

[20:35] <DWROB> his new wife, his new life, AND his old life

[20:35] <DWROB> He is stripped bare

[20:35] <beta> ok

[20:35] <rho> they are still his life

[20:35] <gamma> stuck between a rock and a hard place

[20:35] <bet1> what happens to Corinth without Creon

[20:35] <kappa> She took any remnant of his life away from him

[20:35] <DWROB> It's the same kind of gesture as Odysseus killing every last suitor

[20:35] <omicron> well what has she got

[20:35] <omicron> ?

[20:35] <DWROB> and the suitors' women

[20:36] <abc> i find it funny that both of his lives get ruined by her

[20:36] <aleph> we see it different because a woman is doing the killing

[20:36] <omicron> a life in Athens and that's it?

[20:36] <bet1> no hope

[20:36] <beta> i on't understand that analogy

[20:36] <beta> *don't

[20:36] <vav> that makes the story interesting

[20:36] <DWROB> she has her honor back -- she proves she is royal, powerful, not to be trifled with

[20:36] <omicron> oh

[20:36] <kaf> why would Jason care about the children now, he abandoned them before?

[20:36] <beta> ok

[20:36] <epsilon> yes

[20:36] <epsilon> nothing

[20:36] <epsilon> she has the oath she made with Aegeus

[20:36] <dalet> if Jason didn't care for the kids, why kill them?

[20:36] <sigma> and Medea is low and ends up lower

[20:36] <kaf> yeah?

[20:36] <DWROB> beta: I mean how extreme the revenge has to be -- a point is being made

[20:36] <rho> their is no honor in murder

[20:36] <beta> they re part of his OLD life

[20:37] <iota> me too

[20:37] <DWROB> sigma: no, she is riding in the Sun's dragon chariot at the end! She's not low at all!

[20:37] <omicron> their life was so much different than ours

[20:37] <delta> right

[20:37] <bet1> high horse

[20:37] <aleph> so she can start a new life

[20:37] <kappa> She wasn't too happy to kill her own children

[20:37] <DWROB> So whose side is right? Whose side is Euripedes on?

[20:37] <omicron> Medea's

[20:37] <dalet> evidently, Medea

[20:38] <mu> Medea

[20:38] <tau> Medea

[20:38] <vav> Medea

[20:38] <kaf> Medea's

[20:38] <aleph> Medea's side - she let her win in the end

[20:38] <gamma> Medea

[20:38] <rho> not Jason's

[20:38] <bet1> med

[20:38] <delta> Medea's

[20:38] <lambda> Medea; he showed her being on top

[20:38] <he> Mede

[20:38] <nu> Medea's

[20:38] <delta> she avenged in the end

[20:38] <DWROB> What about the children?

[20:38] <kappa> Medea's

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[20:38] <aleph> they believed in an afterlife

[20:38] <dalet> dead

[20:38] <vav> pawns

[20:38] <pi> the children were a prop

[20:38] <abc> Medea's because she avenge Jason to get her pride back

[20:38] <DWROB> aleph: no

[20:38] <bet1> small price to pay for revenge and honor

[20:38] <aleph> the children will live on

[20:38] <pi> yes pawns

[20:38] <he> maybe she pays that off later

[20:38] <kaf> He somewhat justifies her actions throughout the play

[20:38] <kappa> they truly get screwed

[20:38] <chi> they like to make big gestures

[20:38] <chi> Medea's

[20:38] <gamma> they were a sacrifice for her content

[20:38] <DWROB> So Euripedes approves of Medea's actions?

[20:38] <omega> new beginning

[20:38] <omega> bot

[20:38] <omega> they are in the fields

[20:38] <omicron> they represent vengeance

[20:39] <bet1> no not really

[20:39] <omicron> payback

[20:39] <dalet> i thought there was a place below the earth

[20:39] <tau> i think so

[20:39] <beta> yeah, he was sort of a feminist

[20:39] <rho> it was all about Medea

[20:39] <mu> yes

[20:39] <delta> she did it for them because she didn't want anyone else to take revenge on them

[20:39] <phi> they were the only thing he had left

[20:39] <vav> I can't tell

[20:39] <omega> the after life fields

[20:39] <gamma> i believe so

[20:39] <kappa> seems to

[20:39] <DWROB> dalet: yes, but it's not very lively

[20:39] <he> maybe she will have to answer E later in her life

[20:39] <aleph> he shows Medea as a cunning clever woman - not exactly a wonderful picture

[20:39] <abc> i don't know if he approves but i think he just tolerated her actions for revenge

[20:39] <nu> she tolerated it

[20:39] <eta> well ... well ... Jason is the tragic hero ... perhaps he was on his side ... and just sympathizing with him?

[20:39] <iota> Medea

[20:39] <iota> she doesn't care about them b/c they were doomed to exile

[20:39] <iota> no

[20:39] <pi> she viewed their lives as already being lost so she used them for her sadistic purposes

[20:39] <DWROB> aleph: no, a monstrous picture to the woman-hating audience

[20:39] <DWROB> What is E's point in writing such a play?

[20:40] <sigma> Medea's

[20:40] <sigma> poor kids

[20:40] <aleph> don't trust women

[20:40] <delta> teach a lesson

[20:40] <tau> warning men about women?

[20:40] <pi> don't mess with your woman

[20:40] <rho> women's rights ha ha

[20:40] <bet1> putting women in a different light?

[20:40] <nu> to show what can happen when women are angry

[20:40] <lambda> a warning

[20:40] <psi> in a bad light

[20:40] <kappa> To show the audience haw they act and why they shouldn't act that way

[20:40] <he> To honor your word

[20:40] <beta> to get feminist ideas out there for better equality

[20:40] <DWROB> well, the men would have been in no danger of trusting women

[20:40] <dalet> his point is Karma. you reap what u sow

[20:40] <DWROB> he: good idea

[20:40] <abc> knowing that a women can do just as much as men can

[20:40] <beta> equality

[20:40] <psi> that can be dangerous

[20:41] <psi> dangerous

[20:41] <pi> being a man is no excuse to be a fool

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[20:41] <bet1> as a warning

[20:41] <tau> don't step out on your wife

[20:41] <he> kinda the old saying what ever you do comes back 10 fold

[20:41] <kaf> recognition

[20:41] <gamma> an oath as extremely important

[20:41] <beta> yeah

[20:41] <theta> to be loyal

[20:41] <psi> what goes around comes around

[20:41] <rho> all these stories are about lessons

[20:41] <DWROB> Medea is on the side of the gods and of fate -- she is a witch, a magician, terrifying

[20:41] <omicron> you reap what you sew

[20:41] <bet1> giving men the golden rule

[20:41] <eta> if you do bad things.. bad things will happen

[20:41] <kappa> Being true to your word seems to be a strong theme

[20:41] <beta> you make your bed and have to lie in it ...

[20:41] <delta> pride is bad

[20:41] <bet1> powerful woman

[20:41] <DWROB> This accords with female stereotypes to a degree -- irrational, emotional, devious, etc.

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[20:42] <psi> this plays into that

[20:42] <beta> inability to reason

[20:42] <sigma> don't trust men-cheaters!

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[20:42] <psi> shows all the stereotypes of women

[20:42] <epsilon> Medea

[20:42] <epsilon> yes because Jason broke the vow of marriage

[20:42] <epsilon> to show the power of women

[20:42] <epsilon> ?

[20:42] <abc> that's how she accomplished this ... the gods were on her side

[20:42] <tau> of course all wrong (we might be emotional sometimes)

[20:42] <chi> to challenge the mindset of the time

[20:42] <mu> to a point

[20:42] <aleph> but he ends the story with her on top

[20:42] <vav> got booted

[20:42] <DWROB> But the lesson here is for the men -- not to be so full of themselves ...

[20:42] <rho> true

[20:42] <DWROB> and to give the irrational, FATE, the gods, their due

[20:42] <beta> right on!

[20:42] <rho> true

[20:42] <vav> which they are

[20:42] <kappa> Pride is a dangerous thing too much and it bites back

[20:42] <bet1> hell has no fury like a woman's scorn

[20:42] <pi> but its hard when your this good looking

[20:42] <kaf> the gods don't like pride

[20:42] <psi> or not to cheat or else ... ..

[20:42] <dalet> well, none of the men i know ever read this story

[20:42] <DWROB> For Medea to symbolize or embody all that is a special slap int he face, a humiliation

[20:42] <tau> most guys didn't get the lesson

[20:42] <def> i didn't think she would kill her own children

[20:43] <beta> sher: that's true!

[20:43] <DWROB> The story was old, but E applies a religious interpretation to it

[20:43] <mu> not to always look at themselves as heroes

[20:43] <psi> he includes the gods

[20:43] <vav> she doesn't take well to that

[20:43] <abc> were the gods on her side because of what Jason did to her?

[20:43] <eta> yes

[20:43] <beta> yes

[20:43] <kappa> yes

[20:43] <bet1> does he add the gods help?

[20:43] <DWROB> abc: yes, they hate oath breakers

[20:43] <delta> hard to believe cheating was going on back then

[20:43] <pi> the Sun god was on her side because she was his granddaughter

[20:43] <abc> ok

[20:43] <aleph> so what's the religious aspect?

[20:43] <DWROB> pi: that too

[20:43] <abc> i thought so

[20:44] <omicron> Medea didn't break an oath with her first family?

[20:44] <DWROB> aleph: do not be proud, honor the gods, keep oaths -- all basic religious precepts

[20:44] <omicron> she left them

[20:44] <abc> I knew the sun god was on her side

[20:44] <omega> too much pride

[20:44] <DWROB> Jason's problem is he thinks he is Sooooooo clever.

[20:44] <aleph> so basically Jason broke all three

[20:44] <rho> set of morals and ethics

[20:44] <DWROB> He has a rationale for everything

[20:44] <bet1> why don't they punish her for killing her brother?

[20:44] <abc> he thought a was very sneaky

[20:44] <beta> basic macho mentality

[20:44] <DWROB> a good excuse (his career, basically)

[20:44] <aleph> human nature to justify your actions

[20:44] <delta> he sure does

[20:44] <kaf> but M had to help him get the Fleece

[20:44] <psi> well it didn't work to well

[20:44] <iota> with the gods

[20:44] <sigma> not to cheat on their wives only for personal gain

[20:44] <DWROB> unfortunately, he's an idiot

[20:45] <psi> haha

[20:45] <DWROB> Odysseus he is not

[20:45] <bet1> fortunate for Medea

[20:45] <delta> true

[20:45] <abc> not at all

[20:45] <mu> not at all

[20:45] <rho> Jason was never a hero

[20:45] <lambda> very true

[20:45] <DWROB> If O is one of the smartest characters ever, J is about the dumbest

[20:45] <kappa> Odysseus was truly a clever and charming character

[20:45] <gamma> Jason depended on everyone else

[20:45] <def> women will get their way one way or another

[20:45] <psi> he could never be the hero

[20:45] <kappa> I agree

[20:45] <DWROB> rho: but he was

[20:45] <eta> man ... he should have thought about who he was hurting

[20:45] <psi> he is getting played the whole way through

[20:45] <DWROB> a hero, that is

[20:45] <he> Medea was the smart one here

[20:45] <abc> i concur with that

[20:45] <delta> well said dr. rob

[20:45] <rho> not in my eyes

[20:45] <beta> he can't be the dumbest guy in the world- he used M to get the golden fleece

[20:45] <DWROB> He's just not very smart

[20:45] <aleph> he was a hero that fell

[20:45] <xi> yes

[20:45] <xi> that is true

[20:45] <he> Yeah but he didn't get the Fleece himself

[20:45] <psi> a fallen hero

[20:45] <mu> who was he a hero to

[20:45] <beta> never a hero

[20:46] <rho> ok fallen hero

[20:46] <kaf> so a tragic hero doesn't have to be clever

[20:46] <dalet> but Medea was a black sheep of her own family

[20:46] <DWROB> I mean, neither was Achilles -- you don't have to be smart to be a hero, necessarily

[20:46] <he> he had to use a woman

[20:46] <psi> i didn't see the usual hero aspects in old Greek in this story

[20:46] <mu> how was he a hero

[20:46] <DWROB> he: a woman -- yes

[20:46] <abc> its hard to think of Jason as a hero because he was so dumb

[20:46] <aleph> just above average

[20:46] <gamma> but you can't rely on everyone else and be a hero either

[20:46] <DWROB> mu: he did hero stuff, went on a quest, fought monsters, yada yada

[20:46] <bet1> he was just a text book hero

[20:46] <pi> hes like a guy who was a hero it gave him a big head and he screwed it all up

[20:46] yod (~yod@ joined #2111web.

[20:46] <epsilon> yes!

[20:46] <epsilon> how did Medea not break an oath when leaving her family

[20:46] <mu> with the help of Medea

[20:47] <DWROB> OK, let's look a some quotations from this rich text ... .

[20:47] <aleph> hero's should stay humble or they will fall

[20:47] <chi> but he is so wrong

[20:47] <chi> true

[20:47] <chi> you do have to be realistic to be a hero

[20:47] <eta> a tragic hero and a hero we see today are quite often different

[20:47] <pi> yeah were the gods not pissed that she dissed her home country

[20:47] <rho> so did johnny apple seed

[20:47] <DWROB> here's Medea talking to the chorus of women ... .

[20:47] <DWROB>

[20:47] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:47] <DWROB> We women are are the most unfortunate creatures.

[20:47] <DWROB> Firstly, with an excess of wealth it is required

[20:47] <DWROB> For us to buy a husband and take for our bodies

[20:47] <DWROB> A master; for not to take one is even worse.

[20:47] <DWROB> And now the question is serious whether we take

[20:47] <DWROB> A good or a bad one; for there is no easy escape

[20:47] <omega> witty

[20:47] <DWROB> For a woman, nor can she say no to her marriage.

[20:47] <psi> maybe they wanted her to do it

[20:47] <DWROB> She arrives among new modes of behavior and manners,

[20:47] <DWROB> And needs prophetic power, unless she has learned at home,

[20:47] <DWROB> How best to manage him who shares her bed with her.

[20:47] <def> it's sad that he left for his pwn personal gain and ended up losing on all sides

[20:47] <DWROB> And if we work out all this well and carefully,

[20:47] <DWROB> And the husband lives with us and lightly bears his yoke,

[20:48] <DWROB> Then life is enviable. If not, I'd rather die.

[20:48] <DWROB>

[20:48] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:48] <yod> strong words

[20:48] psi (~psi@ left irc: Quit

[20:48] <beta> in other words - it never works out

[20:48] <dalet> she compares being a wife to being a slave

[20:48] <DWROB> Yes

[20:48] <rho> fatal attraction some what

[20:48] <aleph> basically women must figure out how to control they lives through their husbands

[20:48] <DWROB> What do you think of this speech?

[20:48] <eta> something you just wouldn't see written back in those times

[20:48] <pi> yeah it really gives a glance at the standards of their culture

[20:48] <he> The man has to be in the relationship with his all

[20:48] <beta> it is compelling

[20:48] <vav> like it

[20:48] <gamma> a woman's life was mapped out for her and if it went array she was screwed

[20:48] <kappa> interesting point of view, probably because of the time it was written

[20:48] <delta> she feels her oath was strong and she really loved him she was hurt

[20:48] <tau> i find it depressing

[20:48] <aleph> it makes you sympathize with Medea

[20:49] <pi> it makes what Jason did all the worse

[20:49] <abc> Is she saying that she would rather die than be with a husband like Jason??

[20:49] <mu> she referred to them as creatures

[20:49] <bet1> she is a strong woman it probably surprises women of the time

[20:49] <DWROB> eta: yes, it looks like a modern feminist viewpoint. Is that what E is trying to convey?

[20:49] <dalet> she wont take any ill treatment from Jason

[20:49] <beta> yes!

[20:49] <rho> she thought outside the box

[20:49] <aleph> it was the truth of what women faced

[20:49] <yod> no

[20:49] <pi> E is telling us to treat our women well

[20:49] <beta> E has been considered the first feminist

[20:49] <chi> she is giving us a profile of the lives women had back then

[20:49] <DWROB> (hint: it's NOT feminist OR modern!)

[20:49] psi (~psi@ joined #2111web.

[20:49] <bet1> its true

[20:49] <kappa> Possibly but he really emphasizes Jason's stupidity and dumb actions

[20:49] <mu> that's harsh

[20:49] <DWROB> beta: I would disagree strongly with that assessment

[20:50] iota ( left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer

[20:50] <bet1> its true for the time

[20:50] <DWROB> Consider for a moment -- what is Medea up to here?

[20:50] <DWROB> What's she doing?

[20:50] epsilon ( left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer

[20:50] <yod> i don't see feminist in this

[20:50] <sigma> does says

[20:50] <beta> what does this mean then = (hint: it's NOT feminist OR modern!)

[20:50] <aleph> trying to plot against Jason

[20:50] <kappa> She is getting others on her side

[20:50] <vav> getting her revenge

[20:50] <rho> murder

[20:50] phi ( left irc: Ping timeout

[20:50] <nu> she is spreading discontent

[20:50] <bet1> trying to turn the women against Jason

[20:50] <pi> shes seeking revenge, regaining honor, and cleaning her slate

[20:50] <eta> she is just trying to please herself

[20:50] <kaf> shows how clever she is

[20:50] <delta> setting him up for the kill

[20:50] <he> She is setting her plan

[20:50] <gamma> rallying the other women in the chorus

[20:50] sigma (~sigma@ left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer

[20:50] <psi> she is working them

[20:50] <DWROB> gamma: yes

[20:51] <xi> yeah ...

[20:51] <xi> she is trying to get ppl to see her side of the story

[20:51] <DWROB> she wants them to support her, not betray her. How does she win them over?

[20:51] <chi> showing that she has tried to fit into their idea of a woman

[20:51] <bet1> she needs someone to get her back

[20:51] <kappa> Like starting a riot, just gets people to see things in a different viewpoint

[20:51] <he> yes

[20:51] <kaf> she was plotting her revenge even then

[20:51] <delta> stating things that they agree

[20:51] <delta> with

[20:51] <DWROB> She is plotting, yes

[20:51] <nu> by turning them against all men

[20:51] <beta> getting them to realize they have probably all been cheated on!

[20:51] <kappa> Maybe not completely different but at least slightly

[20:51] <dalet> she wins them over by making Jason out of a betrayer

[20:51] <omega> whats em to pay

[20:51] <gamma> but letting idiot Jason tell his story and her rebuttal

[20:51] <aleph> by making them look at their own fates

[20:51] <bet1> uprising of men

[20:51] <DWROB> She is also telling the women EXACTLY what they want to hear

[20:51] <bet1> never mind

[20:51] <mu> by saying she is right

[20:51] <DWROB> she is manipulating them.

[20:52] <aleph> making the women realize they would do the same thing

[20:52] <beta> yes

[20:52] <lambda> by showing how shes right

[20:52] <abc> she makes them understand how she has been betrayed

[20:52] <pi> shes smart

[20:52] <bet1> appealing to their wants

[20:52] <rho> as women do

[20:52] <DWROB> They would turn on her if she were frank about her plans

[20:52] <chi> by saying she want to die

[20:52] <dalet> the women were oppressed enough

[20:52] <kappa> She proves herself to be clever but it also means that the Greek men should be aware of what could be happening

[20:52] <bet1> shes crafty

[20:52] <eta> as anyone would do

[20:52] <beta> she's playing them all like puppets

[20:52] <rho> shes a woman

[20:52] <yod> very crafty

[20:52] <kaf> she doesn't need them, does she?

[20:52] <DWROB> So it seems naive to me to read this as a feminist manifesto -- it is a piece of clever manipulation

[20:52] <dalet> Medea was slicker than Eve

[20:52] <kappa> Manipulation seems to be a strong point

[20:52] <beta> and witty!

[20:52] <xi> that was smart of her

[20:53] <DWROB> Here's another example ... ..

[20:53] <delta> all a part

[20:53] <delta> of

[20:53] <delta> the

[20:53] <def> she wants her own satisfaction

[20:53] <delta> plot

[20:53] <mu> i agree fully

[20:53] <bet1> she is very smart appose to her ex

[20:53] <DWROB>

[20:53] Last message repeated 4 time(s).

[20:53] <DWROB> Jason, I beg you to be forgiving towards me

[20:53] <DWROB> For hat I said, It is natural for you to bear with

[20:53] <DWROB> My temper, since we have had so much love together.

[20:53] <DWROB> I have talked to myself about this and I have

[20:53] <DWROB> Reproached myself. "Fool" I said, "why am I so mad?

[20:53] <DWROB> Why am I set against those who have planned wisely?

[20:53] <DWROB> Why make myself an enemy of the authorities

[20:53] <DWROB> And of my husband, who does the best thing for me

[20:53] <DWROB> By marrying royalty and having children who

[20:53] <DWROB> Will be as brothers to my own? What is wrong with me?

[20:53] <DWROB> Let me give up anger, for the gods are kind to me.

[20:53] <DWROB> Have I not children, and do I not know that we

[20:53] <DWROB> In exile from our country must be short of friends?"

[20:53] <DWROB> When I considered this I saw that I had shown

[20:53] <DWROB> Great lack of sense, and that my anger was foolish.

[20:53] <DWROB> Now I agree with you. I think that you are wise

[20:53] <DWROB> In having this other wife as well as me, and I

[20:53] phi ( joined #2111web.

[20:53] <DWROB> Was mad. I should have helped you in these plans of yours,

[20:54] <DWROB> Have joined in the wedding, stood by the marriage bed,

[20:54] <DWROB> Have taken pleasure in attendance on your bride.

[20:54] <DWROB> But we women are what we are,-- perhaps a little

[20:54] <DWROB> Worthless; and you men must not be like us in this,

[20:54] <DWROB> Nor be foolish in return when we are foolish.

[20:54] <DWROB> Now I give in, and admit that I was wrong.

[20:54] <DWROB> I have come to a better understanding now.

[20:54] <DWROB>

[20:54] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:54] <kappa> She is playing him like a puppet and he falls for it, proving his lack of intellect

[20:54] <mu> she is setting him up to let her and his kids back in his heart so he will agree to let the princess receive the gifts

[20:54] <rho> she talks to herself - first sign of losing it

[20:54] <DWROB> Question of the evening: Just how dumb is Jason?

[20:54] <he> This is the key part of the plan. She knew Jason would believe her

[20:54] <omicron> she builds him up just to shoot him down

[20:54] <aleph> he actually believes her

[20:54] <DWROB> rho: no, she talks to Jason

[20:54] <nu> pretty dumb

[20:54] <psi> she is playing the game

[20:54] <gamma> she knows he is naive

[20:54] <dalet> He is no dumber than modern-day men

[20:54] <bet1> she is appealing to his pride now

[20:54] <tau> trying to get Jason to be her friend ... just part of the plan to get her kids in there

[20:54] <DWROB> aleph: that's how dumb!

[20:54] <mu> very dumb

[20:54] <eta> yes very very dumb

[20:54] <psi> she is playing he for a fool

[20:54] <DWROB> really, really dumb!

[20:54] <he> She knows that he would believe her is an idiot

[20:55] <beta> playing him like a pawn

[20:55] <mu> how could he think all of sudden she has had a change of heart

[20:55] <DWROB> he: how does she manipulate him?

[20:55] <lambda> really dumb; he left her and now he thinks she gonna be cool

[20:55] <beta> *him

[20:55] <dalet> women have to manipulate men and make them feel as though they're on top all the time

[20:55] <delta> she is trying to play him and convince him

[20:55] <psi> that women for ya

[20:55] <aleph> he doesn't know her well enough to know she is plotting to get him

[20:55] <DWROB> psi: and men :-)

[20:55] <abc> pretty dumb ... because he was pretending to be nice to strike her revenge on Jason and Glauce, and she puts the poison on dress she gives her

[20:55] <kappa> Making him think he is right and feeding his ego

[20:55] <mu> by saying he is right for marrying again

[20:55] <vav> She tells him what he wants to hear

[20:55] <he> She reaffirms him so that he feels like he is the one on top

[20:55] <psi> she makes him seem like he won

[20:55] <tau> didn't she still refer to Jason as her "husband"?

[20:55] <DWROB> kappa: exactly

[20:55] <pi> she offers that threesome, how could he not believe her?

[20:55] <beta> she has always stood by him, how is he to know any different

[20:55] <psi> like he would have the best of both worlds

[20:55] <DWROB> you can't go wrong feeding a man's ego

[20:55] <chi> she is making Jason feel that she knows where he is coming from, but I think she is being facetious

[20:55] <chi> dumb enough to believe her

[20:55] <beta> that's for sure

[20:55] <psi> he is stupid

[20:56] <aleph> he believes her because he believes he has done the right thing

[20:56] <xi> very

[20:56] <bet1> he believes it all willfully

[20:56] <dalet> you are revealing the best trick in the book for women

[20:56] <DWROB> This passage makes me want to laugh or scream, and I'm not even an ancient Greek

[20:56] <phi> he is always looking for gullible written on the ceiling

[20:56] <dalet> darn

[20:56] <kaf> she made him feel that he had gotten his point across

[20:56] <abc> how could he not realize that she was plotting something

[20:56] <kappa> building him up to tear him down

[20:56] <beta> obviously she says all the sarcastically

[20:56] <he> no kidding

[20:56] <bet1> he wants to believe her

[20:56] <he> I don't know if I'm mad a Medea or Jason for believing her

[20:56] <DWROB> "Well, I'm glad Medea finally came around to my way of thinking!" Idiot

[20:56] <dalet> she made him feel wise and on top

[20:56] <beta> laugh or scream - how about both!

[20:56] <vav> haha

[20:56] <kappa> I agree I read it and laughed

[20:56] <aleph> she stroked his ego

[20:57] <kappa> It was too obvious a set up

[20:57] <delta> haha

[20:57] <bet1> so blinded by hi self-love

[20:57] <kaf> he does believe her because he strongly believe he is rational

[20:57] <rho> used his flaw

[20:57] <yod> is this typical line of thinking back then?

[20:57] <kappa> Which could have been E's plan

[20:57] <eta> she has to be a meeeaan woman to be able to say all that with a straight face and be plotting all that

[20:57] <DWROB> yes -- rational -- but he is proof that rationality can be it's own kind of madness

[20:57] <abc> Jason is not the sharpest tool in the shed ... in fact I don't think he is even in the shed

[20:57] <def> he is super-slow

[20:57] <def> but make a man feel right and you aren't gonna hear another complaint come up out him

[20:57] <beta> that right -- used his own flaw against him

[20:57] <DWROB> One more quote ... .

[20:57] <DWROB>

[20:57] Last message repeated 4 time(s).

[20:57] <dalet> Jason is no slower than many men

[20:57] <yod> like sling blade = Jason

[20:57] <DWROB> JASON May a Fury for the children's sake destroy you,

[20:57] <gamma> he believed this was her way to rationalize

[20:57] <DWROB> And Justice, requiter of blood.

[20:57] <DWROB> MEDEA What heavenly power lends an ear

[20:58] <DWROB> To a breaker of oaths, a deceiver?

[20:58] <DWROB> JASON O, I hate you you, murderess of children,

[20:58] <DWROB> MEDEA Go to your palace. Bury your bride.

[20:58] <DWROB> JASON I go, with two children to mourn for.

[20:58] <DWROB> MEDEA Not yet do you feel it. Wait for the future.

[20:58] <DWROB> JASON Oh, children I loved!

[20:58] <DWROB> MEDEA I loved them, you did not.

[20:58] <DWROB> JASON You loved them, and killed them.

[20:58] <DWROB> MEDEA To make you feel pain.

[20:58] <chi> if you want to gain something from him

[20:58] <DWROB> JASON Oh, wretch that I am, how I long

[20:58] <DWROB> To kiss the dear lips of my children!

[20:58] <DWROB> MEDEA Now you would speak to them, now you would kiss them.

[20:58] <DWROB> Then you rejected them.

[20:58] <DWROB> JASON Let me, I beg you,

[20:58] <DWROB> Touch my boys' delicate flesh.

[20:58] <DWROB> MEDEA I will not. Your words are all wasted.

[20:58] <DWROB> JASON O God, do you hear it, this persecution,

[20:58] <DWROB> These sufferings from this hateful

[20:58] <DWROB> Woman, this monster, murderess of children?

[20:58] <DWROB>

[20:58] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:58] <DWROB> This kind of back-and-forth is called a "agon" and E is famous for them

[20:58] <beta> now he's sorry

[20:58] <DWROB> an agon

[20:58] <omega> it nice

[20:58] <mu> she adds hurt to his pain by not letting him see his kids one last time

[20:58] <he> There going at it

[20:59] <gamma> he has nothing left

[20:59] <kappa> He seems to start to feel his stupidity and pain

[20:59] <bet1> she is stiff

[20:59] <abc> he feels bad yet he was the one that left

[20:59] <rho> he is in shock

[20:59] <dalet> Jason is a dead-beat dad

[20:59] <beta> she is pouring salt into the wound

[20:59] <bet1> she doesn't feel for him at all

[20:59] <aleph> Jason now realizes he has lost everything

[20:59] <rho> cold hearted

[20:59] <kaf> She is only telling the truth

[20:59] <bet1> no mercy given

[20:59] <DWROB> One thing Aristotle said was that the tragic figure understands at the end what he/she has done wrong. Does Jason get it at the end?

[20:59] <delta> he realizes what really happened

[20:59] <dalet> i love when M tells him to go and bury his bride!

[20:59] <tau> i find it kind-of funny

[20:59] <DWROB> does he?

[20:59] <he> Yes

[20:59] <mu> yes

[20:59] <aleph> no

[20:59] <bet1> ?

[20:59] <beta> no, but he;s sorry nonetheless

[21:00] <kappa> He seems to be on the verge of getting it

[21:00] <lambda> no

[21:00] <DWROB> sorry for himself isn't sorry

[21:00] <eta> oh yes

[21:00] <rho> maybe not

[21:00] <delta> he still thinks she was wrong and he was right

[21:00] <dalet> M is so cynical!

[21:00] <vav> no

[21:00] <abc> why does Jason all of a sudden feel bad for what he did??? he could not have loved his children that much or he would not have left in the first place???

[21:00] <bet1> he is tormented but maybe non the wiser

[21:00] <he> He realized he was a bad person

[21:00] <DWROB> delta: exactly

[21:00] <eta> he has to live on with that feeling

[21:00] <gamma> no, but he still is concerned with himself

[21:00] <omicron> more than likely he doesn't understand why it happened

[21:00] <omega> yes

[21:00] <he> oh

[21:00] <kaf> he doesn't get it

[21:00] <DWROB> abc: as she points out

[21:00] <he> still that dumb huh

[21:00] <tau> hehe never admits fault

[21:00] <tau> oops ... he

[21:00] <DWROB> What about all his calling of the gods here?

[21:00] <kaf> good that she denied him right to bury the children

[21:00] <DWROB> doesn't that help?

[21:00] <beta> there's the pride again

[21:00] <eta> he would probably rather be dead than feel the way he feels right then

[21:01] <he> Trying to do something

[21:01] <vav> no the gods are on her side

[21:01] <aleph> it's a last attempt

[21:01] <bet1> not really

[21:01] <mu> nope

[21:01] <rho> no

[21:01] <he> he can't do anything else

[21:01] <delta> no they are partial to Medea

[21:01] <beta> no, they don't like him

[21:01] <aleph> he still thinks they helped him with everything

[21:01] <kaf> he is an oath breaker

[21:01] <abc> hes trying to make the gods forgive him for his actions

[21:01] <bet1> its over and done with

[21:01] <chi> she known how to hurt her

[21:01] <chi> him

[21:01] <chi> he's probably too confused in the end to do anything

[21:01] <chi> they have turned their back on him already

[21:01] <psi> i bet he would

[21:01] <DWROB> It seems like he hasn't learned.

[21:01] <he> He has no cred. any more

[21:01] <rho> he stepped out of line first

[21:01] <psi> he is in shock

[21:01] <DWROB> He is a pathetic specimen.

[21:01] <beta> yes

[21:01] <yod> haha

[21:02] <psi> he has lost everything he has

[21:02] <beta> to say the leas

[21:02] <vav> yep

[21:02] <he> some people never learn

[21:02] <bet1> waste of a hero

[21:02] <psi> its like he caught her cheating on him

[21:02] <kappa> He is more pathetic than anyone I know

[21:02] <DWROB> A warning to all men, perhaps -- don't be this big a moron.

[21:02] <dalet> Jason went from sugar to sh___

[21:02] <xi> no

[21:02] <xi> he is blaming the gods

[21:02] <xi> he wants them to sympathize with him

[21:02] <DWROB> indeed

[21:02] <psi> i will remember this

[21:02] <beta> *men never learn

[21:02] <tau> does he become king since Creon also dies? was he next in line?

[21:02] <vav> not a hero

[21:02] <psi> next time i cheat on my girl friend

[21:02] <bet1> someone has to set an example

[21:02] <DWROB> good plan, er, sort of

[21:02] <abc> i don't think anyone can be this much of a moron

[21:02] <bet1> bad example

[21:02] <eta> and she sure did set one hell of an example

[21:02] <DWROB> abc: oh well, keep an eye out

[21:02] <abc> i will

[21:02] <DWROB> That's it for tonight!

[21:02] <rho> you would know

[21:03] <yod> enjoyed it

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[21:03] <psi> ok

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[21:03] <aleph> good night

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[21:03] <psi> sorry i was late

[21:03] <vav> can you tell us again when the test will be up

[21:03] <dalet> good reading

[21:03] <abc> tell next week

[21:03] <psi> computer crashed

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[21:03] <delta> see ya thanks

[21:03] <kaf> good night

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[21:03] <psi> good night

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[21:03] <DWROB> vav: noon -- watch the forum in the morning for details

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[21:03] <abc> gn

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[21:03] <vav> thanks

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[21:03] <omega> great

[21:03] <omega> 6pm to 6pm thur to sat

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[21:04] <beta> bye ya'll

[21:04] <eta> alright that was my question,,,

[21:04] <eta> later

[21:04] <DWROB> omega: no, no -- I'll give the time tomorrow

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[21:05] <def> but the chorus agreed with M

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[21:05] <xi> good night

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