Chat: ENGL 2111 (World Literature I) Winter 2005

Chat 14: Montaigne, Essays

Montaigne, Essays

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[19:42] Topic changed on #2111web by DWROB!DWROB@ Montaigne: Modern Guy

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[20:01] <chi> hello

[20:01] <DWROB> Hmmm -- just twelve people??

[20:01] <rho> I guess

[20:01] <DWROB> and Socrates

[20:01] <beta> nobody else read

[20:01] <DWROB> ?Socrates

[20:01] <DWROB> ? Socrates

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[20:02] <DWROB> there

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[20:02] <DWROB> What's up this week -- half my evening class (in the real world) was missing yesterday.

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[20:03] <DWROB> I thought classes ended in a week, not now

[20:03] <chi> i liked some of his ideas

[20:03] <chi> ?

[20:03] <chi> cute

[20:03] <beta> people are ready for semester to be over

[20:03] <aleph> I would say the weather is good, but these are evening classes

[20:03] <DWROB> how can that be, when Montaigne is waiting for us?

[20:03] <kappa> I agree

[20:03] <he> always!

[20:03] <lambda> i skipped a playoff game for this in frisbee

[20:03] <beta> i guess their priorities lie elsewhere

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[20:04] <DWROB> Oh well

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[20:04] <DWROB> The grades will also lie elsewhere

[20:04] <he> in deed

[20:04] <delta> hah

[20:04] <eta> well jeez

[20:04] <beta> haha

[20:04] <dalet> i'm here!

[20:04] <DWROB> ]:-)

[20:04] <DWROB> good

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[20:05] <DWROB> OK ...

[20:05] <DWROB> have you ever read anything similar to Montaigne?

[20:05] <DWROB> is he familiar or foreign?

[20:05] <beta> more familiar

[20:05] <gamma> similar to Socrates

[20:05] <DWROB> than what?

[20:05] <rho> sounds familiar

[20:05] <delta> seems more modern

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[20:06] <dalet> not really. u

[20:06] <DWROB> aha -- Socrates is pretty old -- but is he modern too in some sense?

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[20:06] <sigma> familiar

[20:06] <kappa> I haven't read anything in this form

[20:06] <gamma> indeed

[20:06] <dalet> except Socrates

[20:06] <aleph> seems like forward thinking for his day

[20:06] <dalet> most definitely

[20:06] <chi> there is a lot going on tonight

[20:06] <chi> so can we have bonus points for begin here

[20:06] <chi> familiar

[20:06] <chi> a lot of people right about ideas they have

[20:06] <rho> easier to read than last week

[20:06] <delta> yes

[20:06] <DWROB> Describe the Socrates/Montaigne analogy for me

[20:06] <eta> seems like a personal journal kind of

[20:06] <beta> lots easier

[20:06] <epsilon> He is modern for his time

[20:06] <kappa> more philosophy than story

[20:07] <rho> Higher thinking for their time

[20:07] <chi> was it well received?

[20:07] <sigma> yes

[20:07] <sigma> his ideals are more alike ours

[20:07] <sigma> like

[20:07] <lambda> they both had ideas that were different for the time period

[20:07] <DWROB> Montaigne was widely read

[20:07] <gamma> they both so that true wisdom lies in the fact that you really know nothing

[20:07] <aleph> sounds like a journal

[20:07] <delta> common thoughts

[20:07] <DWROB> gamma: precisely

[20:07] <bet> not as popular as Socrates it seems

[20:07] <chi> his ideas scared people and made them question things

[20:07] <epsilon> They both seem to have more modern ideals

[20:07] <dalet> of Cannibals was phenomenal

[20:08] <DWROB> dalet: what was the point of writing about cannibals?

[20:08] <delta> to show that that wasn't as bad as other stuff that happened

[20:08] <eta> to who that no one is more superior than the other

[20:08] <dalet> to me, Montaigne was really asking

[20:08] <kappa> show that anything outside of your norm can be considered barbaric to u

[20:08] <gamma> to show how they viewed them differently and personal perception

[20:08] <dalet> now who are the real blood-suckers hear?

[20:08] <bet> the Indians were cannibals in contrast to the Europeans

[20:09] <DWROB> Yes.

[20:09] <bet> Europeans were more barbaric

[20:09] <DWROB> M. lived in the middle of the age of exploration, with Europeans running all over and conquering distant lands

[20:09] <dalet> would u rather eat someone while they are living or dead?

[20:09] <chi> cannibalism is a shock to most people, and it is easy to make your point using cannibalism

[20:09] <epsilon> There's worse types of characteristics a person can have rather than cannibalism

[20:09] <DWROB> While at home, the same Europeans were murdering each other over religious differences

[20:09] <rho> barbarism was worst than cannibalism

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[20:10] <kappa> just because they have different beliefs and a different culture does not make them worse than you

[20:10] <lambda> religious ignorance is worse than cannibalism to M

[20:10] <chi> I wish more people had listened to him

[20:10] <DWROB> chi: that's right, he is criticizing Europeans and using cannibalism to heighten the effect

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[20:10] <bet> they killed I have never killed

[20:10] <gamma> the was very wise

[20:10] <delta> or taking divination for granted to M. was worse

[20:10] <DWROB> I don't imagine that he actually knows much about cannibals or any other foreign people.

[20:10] <epsilon> But something that is unheard of to you can be perfectly normal elsewhere

[20:10] <epsilon> That's a battle of indifference not just eating people

[20:10] <DWROB> But he sure knows about Europeans

[20:11] <theta> he isn't strictly talking literally is he?

[20:11] <DWROB> about what?

[20:11] <aleph> he sounded like he knew first hand about the native Indians as well

[20:11] <dalet> not really, he's trying to make a point about morals

[20:11] <DWROB> aleph: he has the information second hand

[20:11] <sigma> neither

[20:11] <sigma> I would rather starve than eat a human- alive or dead

[20:11] <eta> what he believes to be true

[20:11] <delta> never say never

[20:11] <theta> about the whole cannibalism thing. I think there's more to it. Cannibalism as a meaning to something deeper

[20:11] <chi> i hope non of us have killed

[20:11] <dalet> i'd be a Vegan

[20:11] <tau> xxxx ... u'll never know what u'll do when ur starving

[20:12] <dalet> vegetable and lentils

[20:12] <aleph> when it's acceptable in a culture, you feel very different about it

[20:12] <DWROB> theta: sure, cannibalism is usually taken to be the most barbaric thing imaginable, yet here he claims that we (Europeans) are worse barbarians

[20:12] <rho> He uses canablism to make a point.

[20:12] <DWROB> right

[20:12] <theta> true.

[20:12] <DWROB> I don't think he supports cannibalism

[20:12] <dalet> of course not, we get it

[20:12] <tau> no he doesn't

[20:12] <bet> torture is worse when your alive and have nerves

[20:12] <aleph> torturing someone on the rack was just as bad

[20:12] <DWROB> but better hornorable ritualistic canniablism than human torture!

[20:13] <kappa> just shows that Europeans aren't as good as they think?

[20:13] <dalet> very good contrast

[20:13] <bet> yes

[20:13] <rho> he knows the Europeans need to straigting up

[20:13] <DWROB> kappa: no, they aren't, and how could htey be, sionce theythink the are better than anyone else in the world

[20:13] <dalet> in other words, the Europeans were sucking the lives out of people

[20:13] <chi> i am sure he is well read and used that to form his theories about Indians

[20:13] <chi> if I was starving I would eat anything

[20:13] <chi> the Title grabs your attention

[20:13] <DWROB> that's the point

[20:13] <sigma> not a primary source

[20:13] <sigma> the Europeans have gone mad

[20:13] <epsilon> What he remembers to be true

[20:13] <epsilon> yes

[20:14] <DWROB> sigma: mad with pride, the deadliest sin, as Chaucer and Dante woould have reminded us

[20:14] <kappa> that is what I was saying

[20:14] <delta> he thought of the worse possible thing of that time to compare it to what he thought was even worse

[20:14] <DWROB> correct

[20:14] <rho> this is a group of essays over morals

[20:14] <dalet> many Christians have the deadliest sin and don't even realize it

[20:14] <he> eating meat

[20:15] <DWROB> thinking "I am a Christian" and therefore better is of course a sin

[20:15] <bet> a little egotistical

[20:15] <DWROB> So what is M's prescription for all this?

[20:15] <he> "pride"

[20:15] <dalet> correct. self righteous

[20:15] <epsilon> pride

[20:15] <bet> admitting your problems to yourself

[20:15] <tau> but that's how they thought ... throughout histroy Christians have pushed their religion on barbarians and savages

[20:15] <DWROB> true

[20:15] <rho> yes

[20:16] <delta> following your own path and not to let someone break you down

[20:16] <chi> the scene at the end of Braveheart is definitely more barbaric then cannibalism

[20:16] <tau> to modernize then

[20:16] <sigma> they were not taking the time to stop and think of the consequences of their actions

[20:16] <sigma> of course!

[20:16] <DWROB> Christianity is a very aggressive religion historically

[20:16] <bet> Spanish Inquisition

[20:16] <lambda> that's how Christians have acted through history

[20:16] <rho> crusades

[20:16] <epsilon> remembering the important things in life

[20:16] <eta> they have pushed their religion on anyone who wasn't christian..

[20:16] <he> king Arthur

[20:16] <DWROB> chi: that was historically accurate, too

[20:16] <dalet> Crusades!

[20:16] <rho> I was intrigue with his discussion of Atlantis

[20:16] <DWROB> What does M recommend to counteract this problem?

[20:17] <DWROB> rho: yes, what was the point about Atlantis

[20:17] <DWROB> ?

[20:17] <bet> didn't he say admitting your sins

[20:17] <dalet> Not to be ignorant of other cultures?

[20:17] <DWROB> he doesn't primarily talk about religion, though

[20:17] <rho> the spread of their people, and today there are none

[20:17] <DWROB> dalet: yes, that's good

[20:17] <gamma> don't judge other cultures until you know the way they work

[20:18] <delta> he quoted a lot of different people

[20:18] <aleph> I thought the first part of the writings were kind of funny just about human nature in general

[20:18] <bet> yes and only talk about what you really know

[20:18] <DWROB> At least, don't claim to know about other cultures unless you have been there.

[20:18] <chi> realizing you know nothing

[20:18] <chi> that the new land is probably not Atlantis

[20:18] <epsilon> to be accepting

[20:18] <epsilon> believe what you want to believe but let others also believe for themselves

[20:18] <DWROB> right, the problem is that people with a little knowledge like to act like they know everything

[20:18] <bet> cosmographers

[20:18] <dalet> like me

[20:18] <DWROB> hence Pop's saying 150 years later--

[20:18] <tau> then why would he want a crude simple man?

[20:18] <DWROB> A little knowledge is a dangerous thing

[20:19] <he> like U.S. inelegance

[20:19] <DWROB> Pope's

[20:19] <DWROB> that is

[20:19] <rho> all religions are true; all cultures are different

[20:19] <dalet> what saying?

[20:19] <DWROB> A little knowledge is a dangerous thing

[20:19] <kappa> Knowledge is power but it can be negative with some people

[20:19] <delta> he also felt as though all the philosophers couldn't know all that they were talking about just from education

[20:19] <dalet> experience is the best way to become knowledgeable of something

[20:20] <DWROB> delta: right, he thought most science and philosophy of th time was simply garbage passed from one generation to the next

[20:20] <dalet> especially different cultures

[20:20] <bet> smart people who know little can bull-shit a lot more

[20:20] <chi> he dropped a lot of names

[20:20] <chi> people get more attention if they pretend to be experts

[20:20] <chi> not all religions can be true

[20:20] <DWROB> But back to Atlantis -- what does that whole discussion prove?

[20:20] <gamma> they thought they knew what happened, but really had no idea

[20:21] <tau> that people jump to conclusions ... they really don't know

[20:21] <rho> too smart for their own good

[20:21] <sigma> there are some things that can only be known through personal experiences

[20:21] <sigma> that I would rather be watching American idol

[20:21] <dalet> I guess he was saying it was a powerful city, but even they were swallowed up and forgotten

[20:21] <he> That knowledge was lacking on the subject that they have no clue

[20:21] <aleph> it's human nature to assume rather than necessarily know

[20:21] <DWROB> Right, we have this story about an "other" continent, but it turns out there was a real "other" continent that nobody knew about -- not philosophers, not the bible (!)

[20:22] <iota> that they might not really know what happened

[20:22] <epsilon> ya sher

[20:22] <epsilon> that experience can only prove the unknown

[20:22] <dalet> for real?

[20:22] <rho> it was to have spread as far as Asia

[20:22] <DWROB> This is why it's important when ha lived -- i the middle of the most amazing discoveries in human history

[20:22] <DWROB> it shook his confidence in reported knowledge.

[20:22] <dalet> they found an unclaimed land?

[20:22] <rho> today whale fossils in Egypt

[20:22] <DWROB> The Americas

[20:23] <chi> that people are drawn to find lost cities

[20:23] <chi> proves we don't know everything

[20:23] <he> I would believe that it could be rather overwhelming for people in that time

[20:23] <DWROB> right

[20:23] <DWROB> it was

[20:23] <bet> the world wasn't flat!

[20:23] <delta> he wouldn't take anybody's word for it though, he thought people only told him what they wanted others to know

[20:23] <eta> especially the inhabitants of the land

[20:23] <DWROB> besides the fact that it created an economic boom

[20:23] <epsilon> That's crazy to fathom

[20:23] <DWROB> Good -- so what kind of knowledge does he place his trust in?

[20:23] <dalet> i thought they knew the world was not flat by then

[20:23] <bet> his own

[20:23] <delta> his own experiences

[20:23] <DWROB> they did know

[20:23] <eta> his own personal experiences

[20:23] <kappa> experiences he has had

[20:23] <DWROB> exactly

[20:24] <he> in the knowledge of his experiences because that is what he knows for fact

[20:24] <gamma> past experience

[20:24] <DWROB> only his personal experiences and thoughts are reliable

[20:24] <epsilon> that's kind of like the theory of the Indians not seeing Columbus' ships because they didn't know they existed there fore they didn't see them

[20:24] <epsilon> Memory

[20:24] <rho> we still know very little; accept from our own experience

[20:24] <DWROB> he can't claim to know anything else

[20:24] <DWROB> \M. is the great Renaissance philosopher of skepticism

[20:24] <DWROB> he is against fancy rational systems that are too often simply fictions

[20:25] <DWROB> something is true only if you can see it

[20:25] <tau> is this kind-of Socratic?

[20:25] <rho> there are no utopias

[20:25] <delta> that's why I liked it

[20:25] <dalet> that's his philosophy?

[20:25] <DWROB> or other things may be true, but since we can;t know about them, there's no point making claims about them

[20:25] <DWROB> that's his philosophy

[20:25] <bet> sometimes you have to have faith but in this case he is right

[20:25] <dalet> but M was a Christian, right!

[20:25] <lambda> isn't that common sense

[20:25] <gamma> there is always two sides to every story

[20:26] <DWROB> it is very similar to Socrates -- the same gesture of humility and admitted ignorance being the start of wisdom

[20:26] <chi> knowledge he has found himself

[20:26] <chi> there is so much more out there then one person can discover in their lifetime so isn't limiting yourself counterproductive?

[20:26] <sigma> but wasn't there already an economic boom is some parts?

[20:26] <sigma> like the industries of jewelry and paintings?

[20:26] <kappa> if you haven't personally seen how can you believe it

[20:26] <rho> devils advocate he played

[20:26] <he> Could he believe in his faith differently than he believes other things in the material world.

[20:26] <DWROB> So compare him now to Dante -- how is he different?

[20:27] <dalet> Dante was much more spiritual in beliefs

[20:27] <DWROB> yes ...

[20:27] <beta> M talks more about earthly life- not afterlife

[20:27] <DWROB> good

[20:27] <bet> he doesn't really elaborate on something he knows nothing about(hell)

[20:27] <delta> your actions resulted in what happened not vise versa

[20:27] <tau> he isn't telling stories for entertainment ... its to show how he thinks

[20:27] <rho> he knows from what he see on earth

[20:27] <kappa> Dante didn't have to see everything in order to necessarily believe it

[20:27] <aleph> I thought Dante was more into the aspect of the punishment from sin

[20:27] <DWROB> right

[20:27] <gamma> dante focuses on the individual M focuses on society as a whole

[20:27] <dalet> M was more of a philosopher

[20:27] <epsilon> M was more realistic

[20:27] <DWROB> Christianity valorizes faith; M has his doubts about the value of faith, given what it sometimes results in

[20:28] <DWROB> Religious massacres, etc.

[20:28] <lambda> he speaks about what he thinks

[20:28] <bet> taken to an extreme

[20:28] <chi> M focused on thought more then actions

[20:28] <sigma> definitely two opinions to every story

[20:28] <sigma> he was pitting people against each other

[20:28] <sigma> He is more rash

[20:28] <sigma> M is concerned with the here and now

[20:28] <sigma> Dante wanted to know and discover more about what happens after life on earth

[20:28] <DWROB> I'm not sure about that

[20:28] <delta> wasn't he compared to Dante in the intro though?

[20:28] <eta> dante was surely more religious,,, more about writing fictional stuff

[20:28] <rho> left wing or right?

[20:28] <DWROB> you can't fit M into those political categories!

[20:29] <DWROB> those date only to the 19th century

[20:29] <bet> liberal

[20:29] <bet> just kidding i don't know

[20:29] <eta> not at all

[20:29] <rho> i would say liberal

[20:29] <DWROB> he is simply a skeptic, and no doubt a practical man

[20:29] <dalet> that's right!

[20:29] <epsilon> he speaks only of what he knows from his memory

[20:29] <dalet> it takes a brain like yours, Dr. Rob to break it down to us!

[20:29] <dalet> brownie points?

[20:29] <DWROB> the big shift between the Middle Ages and the Renaissance is nicely illustrated here

[20:29] <iota> he only speaks of his journeys and not necessarily the unknown

[20:30] <DWROB> in the first case, a complete, closed system

[20:30] <DWROB> int he other case, no certainty about anything, except maybe about the physical world

[20:30] <DWROB> That's the birth of the modern world

[20:30] <DWROB> and of science

[20:30] <rho> enlightenment

[20:30] <DWROB> which is the dominant mode of thought ever since

[20:30] <dalet> how is it the end of science?

[20:30] <kappa> skepticism

[20:30] <tau> the renaissance is more skeptical of religion and more into science

[20:30] <he> depends on the Red or Blue state

[20:31] <DWROB> Science is all about things you can see and touch, and makes no claims about other things

[20:31] <dalet> ok

[20:31] <DWROB> Bah -- red and Blue indeed! No correlation

[20:31] <DWROB> let's do some quotes and talk about them

[20:31] <DWROB>

[20:31] Last message repeated 3 time(s).

[20:31] <DWROB> If I had written to seek the world's favor, I should have bedecked myself better, and should present myself in a studied posture. I want to be seen here in my simple, natural, ordinary fashion, without straining to artifice; for it is myself that I portray. My defects will here be read tot he life, and also my natural form, as far as respect for the public has allowed. Had I been placed among those nations which are said to live still in the sweet freedom of

[20:31] <DWROB> nature's first laws, I assure you I should very gladly have portrayed myself here entire and wholly naked.

[20:31] <DWROB>

[20:31] <DWROB>

[20:32] <epsilon> oh yes

[20:32] <epsilon> more modern thinking

[20:32] <epsilon> he's thinking more of what real rather than what to believe in

[20:32] <DWROB> why introduce you book this way?

[20:32] <beta> so readers don't have any expectations

[20:32] <eta> to say tat he is being genuine

[20:32] <aleph> to just accept it as it is

[20:32] <kappa> show he is not trying to be conceited

[20:32] <bet> telling readers the raw truth

[20:32] <delta> to show how real he was

[20:32] <dalet> to make sure people understand where u r coming from

[20:32] <aleph> he asking people not to judge to harshly

[20:32] <lambda> let readers be ready

[20:32] <he> To give the reader a view of your own beliefs

[20:32] <gamma> so readers keep an open mind

[20:32] <DWROB> what does this imply about other writers?

[20:32] <mu> to understand

[20:33] <eta> so they don't expect something great, and don't expect a story..

[20:33] <kappa> maybe even start skepticism of others

[20:33] <delta> you need to question the source

[20:33] <bet> they elaborate and fluff stories

[20:33] <DWROB> yes ...

[20:33] <DWROB> yes

[20:33] <he> That they elaborate on what they may not know

[20:33] <dalet> they are full of it

[20:33] <mu> they were questionable

[20:33] <DWROB> right, most are full of it

[20:33] <chi> people evolve and so has our train of thought

[20:33] <chi> it's in case they don't like it they cant complain because he warned them

[20:33] <eta> they like to paint a pretty picture of things

[20:33] <sigma> makes it sound as if he will be telling the truth, since he is willing to tell the truth about himself

[20:33] <gamma> so why does he quote so many

[20:33] <DWROB> so there is a point here beyond humorous over-modesty

[20:33] <dalet> in a cynical way maybe?

[20:33] <DWROB> He quotes mainly to show how confused people have been

[20:33] <bet> her it is take it or leave it

[20:34] <gamma> ok

[20:34] <DWROB> cynical perhaps, though he doesn;t seem bitter -- more amused

[20:34] <bet> he is self aware

[20:34] <DWROB> He is also breaking with tradition in assuming that the personal is worth this kind of attention

[20:34] <rho> he offers it as what it is.

[20:35] <DWROB> he is self aware and thinks that is better than pretending to know about the cosmos

[20:35] <epsilon> reality , keep an open mind

[20:35] <epsilon> that they make things out to be more than they are

[20:35] <epsilon> take it as it is or don't

[20:35] <tau> he's keeping it real

[20:35] <eta> yes

[20:35] <bet> yep

[20:35] <gamma> when keeping it real goes wrong

[20:35] <delta> I agree

[20:35] <dalet> M gives it to ya raw!

[20:35] <rho> no use to cover it with sugar

[20:35] <DWROB> Now we must take up the subject of penises.

[20:35] <DWROB> What up with all that?

[20:35] <DWROB> what's

[20:35] <dalet> Good Night!

[20:36] <DWROB> heh

[20:36] <aleph> I thought it was so funny.

[20:36] <dalet> that's another class

[20:36] <beta> lots of impotence - that's for sure!

[20:36] <gamma> it was kind of funny

[20:36] <DWROB> it happens

[20:36] <aleph> I couldn't believe this was written in the 1500's

[20:36] <bet> hah!

[20:36] <delta> being real again

[20:36] <gamma> a little too real

[20:36] <aleph> it was once again talking about human nature and stress

[20:36] <tau> hey, people in the 1500s had sexual probs too

[20:36] <DWROB> what's his point?

[20:36] <DWROB> he knows he is being scandalous

[20:36] <aleph> we can't control everything

[20:36] <DWROB> so?

[20:37] <DWROB> what does that teach him?

[20:37] <rho> talk about it

[20:37] <aleph> so we shouldn't worry about it

[20:37] <delta> it wasn't the rituals it was the self confidence?

[20:37] <gamma> we act like we can control everything else but we cannot even completely control ourselves

[20:37] <epsilon> stick to the facts

[20:37] <epsilon> ya that what i thought

[20:37] <epsilon> but its the truth

[20:37] <tau> the mind is very powerful??

[20:37] <DWROB> yes ... the cure was another act of imagination

[20:37] <chi> he obviously had a high IQ because of his take it or leave it attitude

[20:37] <chi> it gets people's attention

[20:37] <aleph> our mind plays tricks on us

[20:37] <DWROB> the mind is powerful -- and completely out of out control, or maybe, the body is powerful, and out of our control

[20:37] <sigma> being self-aware is a better virtue to him

[20:37] <sigma> I could, there are always perverts

[20:38] <rho> we can make ourselves sick just by thinking about it

[20:38] <DWROB> in any event, our conscious mind is not the whole of our being, and it isn't in full charge of anything

[20:38] <iota> yes both

[20:38] <bet> the insides do their thing without us saying so

[20:38] <dalet> of course, especially for the males

[20:38] <tau> the placebo effect of the mind

[20:38] <lambda> your unconscious makes you do things also you normally wouldn't

[20:38] <DWROB> yes -- the insides -- penises, farts, burps, the whole shebang -- proof we aren't in control

[20:38] <DWROB>

[20:38] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:38] <DWROB> People are right to notice the unruly liberty of this member, obtruding so importunately when we have no use for it, and failing so importunately when we have the most use for it ... . The same cause that animates this member also animates, without our knowledge, the heart, the lungs, and the pulse ... . We do not command our hair to stand on end or our skin to shiver with desire or fear ... . The organs that serve to discharge the stomach have their own dilations

[20:38] <DWROB> and compressions, beyond and against our plans, just like those that are destined to discharge the kidneys.

[20:38] <eta> nature takes control

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[20:38] <DWROB>

[20:39] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:39] <DWROB> beta9: the topic is penises

[20:39] <epsilon> self control

[20:39] <epsilon> hahaha

[20:39] <beta9> sorry i got booted for a sec

[20:39] <iota> your gross dude

[20:39] <rho> mother natural calls?

[20:39] <DWROB> just trying to be helpful

[20:39] <beta9> i saw that b4 i was disconnected - thanx

[20:39] <DWROB> ok

[20:40] <bet> its true and all are effected

[20:40] <DWROB> M is pretty funny about all this, you have to admit -- so matter of fact

[20:40] <dalet> Member: LOL :-O

[20:40] <kappa> the body can be outside of the minds control

[20:40] <DWROB> unruly member

[20:40] <he> haha

[20:40] <bet> the body always is a good reason to laugh

[20:40] <iota> i am uncomfortable

[20:40] <eta> veery mater of fact

[20:40] <DWROB> his implication is that this stuff is a better basis of real knowledge than philosophy is

[20:40] <chi> it may just be our unconscious and we aren't aware of these thoughts

[20:40] <chi> Dr.R just likes typing penis

[20:41] <tau> ha ha

[20:41] <bet> he hee

[20:41] <DWROB> It's my duty

[20:41] <DWROB> sorry

[20:41] <delta> okay ...

[20:41] <DWROB> moving on ...

[20:41] <eta> he definitely takes about personal experiences like said earlier

[20:41] <DWROB>

[20:41] Last message repeated 3 time(s).

[20:41] <dalet> is this my 6th grade health class?! ;-)

[20:41] <DWROB> We ought to have topographers who would give us an exact account of the places where they have been. But because they have over us the advantage of having seen Palestine, they want to enjoy the privilege of telling us news about all the rest of the world. I would like everyone to write what he knows, and as much as he knows, not only in this, but in all other subjects; for a man may have some special knowledge and experience of the nature of a river or a fount

[20:41] <DWROB> ain, who in other matters knows only what everybody knows. However, to circulate this little scrap of knowledge , he will undertake to write the whole of physics. From this vice spring many great abuses.

[20:41] <epsilon> nature is nature there's no answer for that

[20:41] <epsilon> no one can help it

[20:41] <epsilon> ya he's explained it on a lighter side

[20:41] <epsilon> ya

[20:41] <DWROB>

[20:42] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

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[20:42] <DWROB> This is from Cannibals

[20:42] <DWROB> I think it indicates he is not totally skeptical and negative.

[20:42] <rho> eating at the human mind

[20:42] <sigma> it happens

[20:42] <delta> to a certain extent

[20:42] <DWROB> Better knowledge can be accumulated, but on a more precise and personal foundation

[20:42] <bet> so they know what human flesh tastes like ... gross

[20:42] <aleph> when we think we know something, we tend to add to it then we know nothing

[20:43] <dalet> i think he is saying

[20:43] <DWROB> right, the fact is all mixed up with the fancy

[20:43] <bet> even when we here a story we add on

[20:43] <chi> i totally agree

[20:43] <rho> rationalize things even if we don't know

[20:43] <iota> no

[20:43] <DWROB> Science is just the systematic application of what he is saying here

[20:43] <delta> I agree

[20:43] <dalet> that knowledge collected from people who had a first hand experience is the best

[20:43] <rho> theories

[20:43] <eta> but don't paint a picture that you are ignorant about

[20:44] <DWROB> Descartes will take M's ideas and rethink the entire scientific and philosophical disciplines

[20:44] <DWROB> M. is really the seed for modern thought in many ways

[20:44] <delta> a lot of philosophers probably re thought their ideas after this

[20:44] <gamma> i thought he made a lot of sense

[20:44] <DWROB>

[20:44] Last message repeated 3 time(s).

[20:44] <DWROB> They have some sorts of priests and prophets, but they rarely appear before the people, having their home in the mountains. On their arrival there is a great feast and solemn assembly of several villages ... . The prophet speaks to them in public, exhorting them to virtue and their duty; but their whole ethical science contains only these two articles: resoluteness in war and affection for their wives. He prophesies to them things to come and the results they a

[20:44] <DWROB> re to expect from their undertakings, and urges them to war or holds them back from it; but his is on the condition that when he fails to prophesy correctly, and if things turn out otherwise than he has predicted, he is cut into a thousand pieces if they catch him., and condemned as a false prophet. For this reason, the prophet who has once been mistaken is never seen again

[20:44] <DWROB>

[20:45] Last message repeated 1 time(s).

[20:45] <DWROB> What's he up to here?

[20:45] <epsilon> its not just straightforward

[20:45] <epsilon> he began thinking outside the spiritual and religious bubble

[20:45] <chi> it's human nature to exaggerate

[20:45] <chi> wow

[20:45] <chi> and doctor

[20:45] <chi> s

[20:46] <DWROB> What do you think of this barbaric custom?

[20:46] <tau> outside the box?

[20:46] <chi> somethings are unseeable

[20:46] <DWROB> chopping up your prophets, my goodness!

[20:46] <delta> pro. better know what the is talking about

[20:46] <bet> a little harsh but understandable

[20:46] <eta> people who make things up are killed

[20:46] <dalet> M shows how the Indians priests must have be true and have better standards or else

[20:46] <DWROB> heh -- right

[20:46] <DWROB> it's also a leg-pull

[20:46] <eta> and even the "barbarians" are moral and affectionate people

[20:47] <rho> to their own people

[20:47] <chi> they are faking something seen as sacred, people reacted the same way in Texas when Ozzy pissed on the Alamo

[20:47] <DWROB> he's inviting you to hold the religious men you know up to this standard -- how many would have to be chopped up? :-)

[20:47] <eta> unless someone lies.. even a prophet

[20:47] <dalet> you prophesy to me wrong , I'll kill ya

[20:47] <delta> thousands

[20:47] <DWROB> It's a wicked image -- very amusing

[20:47] <rho> weather men in Iran

[20:47] <DWROB> !

[20:47] <tau> good one xxxx

[20:47] <tau> :)

[20:48] <dalet> let's see, Jimmy Swaggart

[20:48] <chi> if i had a prophecy i wouldn't share it

[20:48] <DWROB> Well, as we see, Christians do pretty well at murdering each other, too; we don't need Muslims to teach us

[20:48] <chi> nope

[20:48] <epsilon> understandable if you don't know what else to think

[20:48] <epsilon> lots

[20:48] <epsilon> ya but not if I wasn't sure

[20:48] <dalet> how about the Unibomber

[20:49] <DWROB>

[20:49] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:49] <epsilon> nope

[20:49] <DWROB> here's one from that odd and baggy last essay, On coaches

[20:49] <DWROB>

[20:49] Last message repeated 3 time(s).

[20:49] <DWROB> Even if all that has come down to us by report from the past should be true and known by someone, it would be less than nothing compared with what is unknown. And of this very image of the world which glides along while we live on it, how puny and limited is the knowledge of even the most curious! Not only of particular events which fortune often renders exemplary and weighty, but of the state of great governments and nations, there escapes us a hundred times more than comes to our knowledge. We exclaim at the miracle of the invention of our artillery, of our printing; other men in another corner of the world, in China, enjoyed these a thousand years earlier. If we saw as much of the world as we do not see, we should perceive, it is likely, a perpetual multiplication and vicissitude of forms.

[20:49] <DWROB>

[20:50] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:50] <DWROB> What's important here?

[20:50] <aleph> how much we truly do not know

[20:50] <aleph> know

[20:50] <tau> others have had this stuff for centuries, but we take credit for it

[20:50] <mu> him stating we don't know anything

[20:50] <DWROB> nothing new under the sun, as it were

[20:50] <he> That what we think as new and important could have been invented years earlier

[20:50] <rho> unexplored knowledge

[20:50] <delta> to see more than what meets the eye

[20:50] <dalet> the way he compared Europeans marveling at what Chinese did thousands of years earlier

[20:50] <lambda> like Socrates said

[20:50] <mu> we are late to find out things we thought we already knew

[20:50] <DWROB> right -- and he gives good examples

[20:51] <he> so there is much of what we don't know

[20:51] <DWROB> Of course, this probably doesn't apply so much today

[20:51] <epsilon> there's so much more out there than imaginable

[20:51] <chi> we all have a limited view

[20:51] <he> i think it does

[20:51] <DWROB> The problem, as M points out, is that knowledge had been based upon a shaky foundation

[20:51] <bet> not that I know but that's the point exactly

[20:51] <DWROB> Science is all about finding a firm foundation

[20:51] <tau> oh

[20:52] <dalet> in a way it does apply for today

[20:52] <rho> there things we know today. it is just trying to educate people of this knowledge

[20:52] <he> there is still much to be found out in the field of Science just as their is much to find in other fields

[20:52] <DWROB> yes indeed

[20:52] <epsilon> we are stuck in our own little worlds, own cultures when there has been human life for centuries

[20:52] <DWROB> One thing I should mention before next week ...

[20:52] <sigma> and proving that its absolute

[20:52] <sigma> or that it can never be proven absolute-one or the other

[20:53] <iota> yeah that seems to happen a lot

[20:53] <DWROB> One of M's most avid readers was a certain English poet and playwright

[20:53] <dalet> Shakespeare

[20:53] <rho> w.s

[20:53] <he> Bill shake

[20:53] <chi> we are only one planet

[20:53] <DWROB> yep

[20:53] <eta> well yeah

[20:53] <delta> so there is going to be a correlation

[20:53] <DWROB> He read this same stuff you are reading, and the ideas and the world view turns up in his plays

[20:54] <DWROB> The world of Hamlet is not the world of Chaucer's Pardoner

[20:54] <iota> about next week, that is when the three doors down concert is, they're famous

[20:54] <iota> maybe we shouldn't have class?

[20:54] <he> they suck

[20:54] <dalet> they suck

[20:54] <DWROB> It's an uncertain, Renaissance world, not a closed mechanical medieval system

[20:54] <gamma> haha

[20:54] <bet> I wanna go too

[20:54] <epsilon> something that we know is matter of fact

[20:54] <epsilon> understand there is so much more to learn just be accepting of whats out there in the places you don't see

[20:54] <epsilon> No class its the 3 doors down concert

[20:54] <epsilon> Shakespeare

[20:54] <epsilon> e

[20:54] <iota> what do you think dr rob

[20:54] <DWROB> My daughter is going

[20:54] <eta> oh man funny

[20:54] <bet> not fair

[20:54] <DWROB> they suck :-)

[20:54] <he> haha

[20:55] <sigma> especially medical science

[20:55] <sigma> of course

[20:55] <sigma> you suck

[20:55] <bet> I know but its in the stadium

[20:55] <chi> awesome

[20:55] <eta> yeah ... i would rather come to dr robs class

[20:55] <DWROB> true

[20:55] <bet> please!!!!

[20:55] <iota> no you do

[20:55] <delta> me too

[20:55] <DWROB> no competition, really

[20:55] <dalet> me too

[20:55] <mu> i know

[20:55] <sigma> harsh

[20:55] <he> I'll be here

[20:55] <dalet> me too

[20:55] <gamma> me too

[20:55] <bet> that's true but we are here every wed

[20:55] <chi> could they join your Tuesday class instead

[20:55] <sigma> bag

[20:55] <sigma> xxxx wants to win

[20:55] <rho> me to

[20:55] <DWROB> we should designate someone to stand in front of the stadium with a sign, inviting people to join our chat

[20:55] <DWROB> its only fair

[20:56] <tau> haha

[20:56] <lambda> ill do it

[20:56] <dalet> funny

[20:56] <bet> ha ha

[20:56] <delta> haha

[20:56] <omega> same here

[20:56] <dalet> laptops

[20:56] <mu> so they can have this experience too

[20:56] <iota> harsh

[20:56] <iota> your not cool

[20:56] <DWROB> If anybody really is going to see this sucky band, feel free to join the Tuesday chat

[20:56] <delta> can we go top models on

[20:56] <bet> thank you you are super cool

[20:56] <chi> we wouldn't be able to chat with so many ppl

[20:56] <epsilon> u suck

[20:56] <epsilon> that's rough

[20:56] <epsilon> well u are ridiculous

[20:56] <DWROB> *sigh*

[20:56] <sigma> xxxx never gives up

[20:56] <eta> i think ill stick to the Wednesday chat and save my money

[20:56] <epsilon> cool

[20:56] <delta> me too

[20:56] <mu> ill will be here

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[20:57] <DWROB> I only heard one of their songs -- I am just giving you grief

[20:57] <epsilon> oh ok thanks xxxx for your agenda

[20:57] <delta> are we done

[20:57] <chi> top model?

[20:57] <dalet> Top Model Sucks

[20:57] <delta> yea top model now gone American idol I guess now

[20:57] <bet> Its for the company

[20:57] <sigma> you can tailgate for free

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[20:57] <DWROB> we are officially done

[20:58] <he> bye

[20:58] <dalet> Bon Nuit!

[20:58] <delta> thanx

[20:58] <eta> alright good times ... have a wonderful night everyone

[20:58] <DWROB> Gute Nacht!

[20:58] <bet> thank you g night

[20:58] <rho> see ya

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[20:58] <beta9> dr. rob?

[20:58] <DWROB> yes?

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[20:59] <DWROB> did you have a bad connection?

[20:59] <beta9> I know i usually have more to say, and I'm sorry about not joining too much in the discussion

[20:59] <beta9> i really did read, but my son is sick

[20:59] <beta9> and I am trying to take care of him and chat at the same time

[20:59] <DWROB> don't worry, the overall figures are what count

[20:59] <DWROB> first things first

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[20:59] <beta9> ok, i just wanted to let you know

[21:00] <chi> Dr. Rob , i was thinking about how to make it easier to look up old chats, and I think that is you could make each chat a different color they would be easier to look at

[21:00] <DWROB> the problem is I would have to do that by hand; the chat logs are automatic now

[21:00] <DWROB> Of course, I could write a better script :-P

[21:00] <DWROB> Maybe over the summer

[21:01] <DWROB> I do realize it's quite a glob

[21:02] <chi> color coding?

[21:02] <chi> I don't know if that is possible but i thought it was a good idea

[21:02] <chi> right

[21:02] <chi> it was just a thought

[21:02] <chi> have a nice night

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