Chat: ENGL 2111 (World Literature I) Winter 2005

Chat 7: Plato and Thucydides

Plato and Thucydides

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[19:55] <DWROB> Any Hunter S. Thompson fans in the channel?

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[19:58] <lambda> yes

[19:58] <DWROB> R.I.P., huh?

[19:58] <lambda> yeah it is really strange

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[19:59] <chi> who is he?

[19:59] <chi> was he the Fear and Loathing guy?

[19:59] <DWROB> It's embarrassing (and illegal) how much of Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas a lot of people my age carry around in their systems.

[19:59] <DWROB> metaphorically speaking

[19:59] <DWROB> chi: yes

[19:59] <gamma> that is a crazy story

[19:59] <DWROB> It's a crazy world!

[20:00] <chi> I love that movie!

[20:00] <chi> It is sad he killed himself

[20:00] <phi> yeah

[20:00] <gamma> does the movie do justice for the book

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[20:00] <DWROB> Sad but not too surprising -- most people who lived like that would be dead by thirty.

[20:00] <DWROB> haven't seen the movie -- am re-reading the book now.

[20:01] <chi> true

[20:01] <gamma> you should watch the movie after you finish reading it

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[20:01] <DWROB> I will. But yes, it is sad.

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[20:01] <omega> interesting though

[20:01] <DWROB> Johnny Depp might be weird enough to capture HST's spirit

[20:01] <chi> What's the title of the book?

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[20:02] <DWROB> Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

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[20:02] <DWROB> :-)

[20:02] <he> i read it 2

[20:02] <tau> crazy movie

[20:02] <DWROB> Looks like we have quorum, so let's begin

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[20:02] <DWROB> From HST to Socrates

[20:03] <DWROB> I was looking over your forum remarks

[20:03] <iota> I have a question if we passed the quizzes does that mean we got an A on them

[20:03] <DWROB> looks like the consensus was that all of these texts deal with Athenian superiority

[20:03] <sigma> bow

[20:03] <chi> right

[20:03] <chi> Johnny Depp is great, he really captures the uniqueness of the role

[20:03] <mu> yes

[20:03] <eta> or about Athens in general

[20:03] <pi> Athenian superiority was what the text basically stated

[20:03] <beta> Athenian's believe they are superior

[20:04] <delta> Athenians know they are superior

[20:04] <gamma> cocky group of people

[20:04] <he> poor Socrates

[20:04] <DWROB> What do they see as their superior characteristics?

[20:04] <kappa> Athenian's believe and act accordingly that they are superior

[20:04] <pi> everything about them

[20:04] <DWROB> specifics?

[20:04] <aleph> they view themselves as liberal minded and very open

[20:04] <gamma> combat skills

[20:04] <bet> they were great but they didn't have to act like that

[20:04] <rho> yes everything

[20:04] <delta> power in number, strength

[20:04] <kaf> laws

[20:04] <pi> their military skills

[20:04] <kaf> intelligence

[20:04] <he> They want everyone to conform to their ideals

[20:04] <psi> i agree

[20:04] <nu> democracy

[20:04] <pi> their patriotism

[20:04] <rho> their smarts

[20:04] <eta> well they were whooping everyone and had a good working government. ...

[20:04] <nu> wisdom

[20:04] <mu> numbers they possessed

[20:04] <yod> numbers

[20:04] <kappa> Better army, better people, ability to coexist

[20:04] <beta> democratic gov't

[20:04] <vav> Intelligence

[20:04] <psi> there army and the numbers

[20:05] <tau> their military

[20:05] <DWROB> All correct. They were amazing people. And they were the first to admit it!

[20:05] <psi> there ability to overtake others

[20:05] <rho> their system of politic

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[20:05] <kappa> That could be their flaw

[20:05] <DWROB> Military superpower, cultural superpower, inventors of open democratic society

[20:05] <bet> they didn't just admit it they seemed to brag

[20:05] <pi> in all honesty though, the Athenians didn't just believe they were the best, they pretty much were the best

[20:05] <DWROB> kappa: yes

[20:05] <kappa> Quite a boastful bunch

[20:06] <gamma> they certainly wanted to make there superiority clear

[20:06] <DWROB> how do the Greeks look at pride of this sort?

[20:06] <kaf> But all of this does not necessarily make them better people, they killed Socrates for being different

[20:06] <beta> foolish pride theme again ...

[20:06] <chi> that and Athenian arrogance

[20:06] <chi> their unique form of government and military policies

[20:06] <pi> something that might piss the gods off

[20:06] <DWROB> kaf: indeed

[20:06] <mu> arrogance

[20:06] <tau> flaw

[20:06] <kappa> This pride can be very negative

[20:06] <lambda> it is pissing the gods off

[20:06] <DWROB> "hubris"

[20:06] <psi> he died for his cause

[20:06] <bet> everybody's flaw

[20:06] <pi> all pride gets you is a kick in the balls from the gods

[20:06] <sigma> power and control

[20:06] <bet> it seems

[20:06] <omega> their justice system

[20:06] <DWROB> Hubris is what destroys a tragic hero -- the hero is great, but his pride in his greatness brings him down

[20:07] <bet> do y'all hear that thunder

[20:07] <DWROB> pi: basically

[20:07] <pi> its happens to all of them

[20:07] <DWROB> thunder--yes!

[20:07] <he> So Athenians are the tragic hero

[20:07] <nu> Socrates says that about Achilles

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[20:07] <DWROB> HST shooting off fireworks

[20:07] <gamma> seems as if all the characters we discuss have pride problems

[20:07] <bet> ha

[20:07] <mu> lol

[20:07] <DWROB> All the Greek characters, definitely

[20:07] <kappa> Pride is a recurring theme so far

[20:07] <rho> we have studied individual flaw up to now, Here we have a group of people with a tragic flaw

[20:07] <pi> some Hebrew ones as well, Joseph for example

[20:07] <he> indeed

[20:07] <DWROB> The Greeks are fascinated with Reason, and also with the limits of reason.

[20:08] <delta> I agree

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[20:08] <kaf> Close-minded sometimes

[20:08] <beta> so far, all the heroes we have read about they have one fatal flaw - pride

[20:08] <DWROB> Reason is more important for the Greeks than for the Hebrews, who stress faith

[20:08] <bet> so they dislike those who believe they are above reason

[20:08] <he> They seem like the ones who want to set the limits of reasons

[20:08] <DWROB> and obedience

[20:08] <pi> very true

[20:08] <delta> it appears as if

[20:08] <pi> and as a result the Hebrews were typically more humble

[20:08] <kappa> They were like scientist now, everything has a reason

[20:08] <delta> there is also a reason for everything

[20:08] <DWROB> he: for the Greeks, the limit of reason is an essential part of the definition of what it means to be human

[20:08] <aleph> they believe in gods but do not seem to be as in need of them

[20:08] <DWROB> good observation

[20:09] <rho> in touch with nature

[20:09] <chi> yes

[20:09] <chi> but the stories don't mention a fall from power that would make them a tragic hero

[20:09] <chi> Then why prosecute Socrates?

[20:09] <DWROB> But if they act on that feeling, according to the tragedies, they will be punished!

[20:09] <DWROB> So the limits are very important.

[20:09] <gamma> to show what will happen if you test their superiority

[20:09] <he> as was Socrates

[20:09] <bet> yep, just like obedience in the bible

[20:09] <DWROB> OK, what about Socrates -- what has he done?

[20:09] <psi> if you test there superiority

[20:09] <mu> nothing

[20:09] <psi> they will show you why they are superior

[20:09] <nu> he has pointed out how foolish people are

[20:09] <kaf> Spoke his mind

[20:10] <kappa> He has told people they are not as wise as they thought

[20:10] <eta> he has spoke his mind ... .

[20:10] <delta> the end made me sad

[20:10] <he> Expressed his knowledge

[20:10] <aleph> he has gone past the point of reason in their minds

[20:10] <tau> embarrassed people

[20:10] <gamma> question those who thin they are wise in there ways

[20:10] <pi> stated his ideas which happened to not be so consensual with the rest of Athens

[20:10] <mu> telling the truth

[20:10] <nu> to bad for him they were powerful people

[20:10] <bet> he spoke of others

[20:10] <kaf> He realizes that the so-called wise really is not

[20:10] <psi> he died for his cause

[20:10] <aleph> he is introducing new stuff to the young people

[20:10] <tau> made them realize they don't really know anything

[20:10] <psi> he was much braver they they were

[20:10] <DWROB> delta: but notice that it doesn't make Socrates sad!

[20:10] <rho> He spoke what he felt

[20:10] <gamma> prove that they know nothing

[20:10] <nu> this trial is them getting back at them

[20:10] <nu> at him

[20:10] <beta> questioned previous beliefs and openly spoke about them

[20:10] <delta> everybody has there own degree of wisdom

[20:10] <aleph> Socrates feels justified in everything he has done

[20:10] <psi> he was a peace with his faith

[20:10] <he> He was doing the Athenians a favor by proving that some were phony

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[20:10] <DWROB> yes!!

[20:10] <omega> yes

[20:10] <kappa> In his trial he also left the court with no easy way out

[20:10] <aleph> he feels good about his life

[20:10] <mu> it is almost as he would rather die than to live with the people who has condemned him to death

[20:10] <DWROB> He does think he is doing a service to his people

[20:11] <kaf> He feels that he is wiser than them because he knows that God is the wise

[20:11] <phi> he talked too much

[20:11] <eta> he discredits his accusers

[20:11] <psi> like he said a good man and a god will protect him here and after life

[20:11] <bet> yes he is pointing out the wrong

[20:11] <DWROB> They are foolish, but he is serving them best by being their victim

[20:11] <chi> challenged their normalcy

[20:11] <chi> makes the youth question their elders

[20:11] <chi> he also believes Delphi's oracle

[20:11] <vav> but why the conversation

[20:11] <DWROB> What does that remind you of?

[20:11] <delta> he made mention of some who weren't very wise at all

[20:11] <pi> JESUS

[20:11] <DWROB> exactly

[20:11] <aleph> Jesus

[20:11] <rho> he is trying to enlighten them

[20:11] <kappa> Jesus

[20:11] <upsilon> Jesus

[20:11] <nu> Jesus

[20:11] <DWROB> Socrates is the secular, rationalist equivalent to Jesus, the world's other great judicial murder

[20:11] <bet> and he is punished like Jesus

[20:11] <psi> Jesus

[20:11] <gamma> he was willing to sacrifice his life for what he believed was a greater good

[20:12] <DWROB> right

[20:12] <he> yes

[20:12] <pi> martyr

[20:12] <delta> I agree

[20:12] <psi> He sacrificed his life for a good cause people seen this

[20:12] <DWROB> Certainly in Western culture, Socrates and Jesus -- reason and faith -- are the two anchor points for everything after

[20:12] <kappa> He possibly could have saved his life by admitting guilt, though there was none.

[20:12] <aleph> he does and says what he truly feels

[20:12] <phi> Jesus

[20:12] <DWROB> and they share ethics, morals as a common territory

[20:13] <beta> except Socrates stands up for himself in court, Jesus says nothing

[20:13] <DWROB> Here is what Socrates says the charges against him are:

[20:13] <beta> *Socrates

[20:13] <DWROB>

[20:13] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:13] <rho> but it is not religious. Is It?

[20:13] <DWROB> I will begin at the beginning, and ask what the accusation is which has given rise to this slander of me, and which has encouraged Meletus to proceed against me. What do the slanderers say? They shall be my prosecutors, and I will sum up their words in an affidavit. "Socrates is an evil-doer, and a curious person, who searches into things under the earth and in heaven, and he makes the worse appear the better cause; and he teaches the aforesaid doctrines to o

[20:13] <DWROB> theirs."

[20:13] <DWROB>

[20:13] <DWROB>

[20:13] <DWROB> Actually, S. regards all of his ideas as religious, since they comment on the truth and hence on the gods

[20:14] <omicron> are they saying he questions things that are not to be questioned?

[20:14] <DWROB> What strikes you about the accusations?

[20:14] <he> what a dumb accusation, how can that be against the gods?

[20:14] <aleph> he is the open minded person in that society

[20:14] <beta> accused of impiety, right?

[20:14] <DWROB> omicron: yes

[20:14] <aleph> they are very vague

[20:14] <lambda> he is accused of thinking

[20:14] <DWROB> yes!

[20:14] <DWROB> questioning

[20:14] <kappa> They challenge their thought

[20:14] <DWROB> subjecting accepted ideas to scrutiny

[20:14] <pi> how dare he

[20:14] <DWROB> testing them according to laws of reason

[20:14] <bet> disbelieve of what everybody thinks

[20:14] <eta> he is accused of disagreeing to an extent

[20:14] <DWROB> Why is this so threatening to the establishment?

[20:14] <pi> basically yeah

[20:15] <bet> everyone thinks hes wrong for this

[20:15] <beta> thinking differently

[20:15] <DWROB> (There, I sound like HST!)

[20:15] <he> Challenges the hierarchy

[20:15] <pi> if he undermines their knowledge, he undermines their authority

[20:15] <nu> because it is what society is built on

[20:15] <delta> because he brings change to old ways of thinking

[20:15] <lambda> the establishment doesn't want to know if they are wrong

[20:15] <gamma> the Athenians had a successful social structure and didn't want it being tampered with

[20:15] <bet> it scares them

[20:15] <DWROB> Why, what has reason and belief got to do with the hierarchy?

[20:15] <rho> You just don't question Why!

[20:15] <omega> there slightly in touch with their emotions in a way

[20:15] <eta> and if everyone thinks they know the truth he is accusing them of being wrong

[20:15] <eta> kinda

[20:15] <omicron> because if the gods are fake then they will be lost

[20:15] <nu> it gave them an excuse to exact revenge

[20:15] <kappa> undermines authority

[20:15] <he> He is questioning those who are in POWER

[20:15] <eta> well he is not accusing ... but they feel it that way

[20:15] <vav> knowledge is power

[20:15] <DWROB> vav: ah

[20:15] <beta> you are supposed to believe what the higher ups believe

[20:16] <kappa> but ignorance is bliss

[20:16] <DWROB> or perhaps it's: knowledge is the opposite of power

[20:16] <rho> if he pulls the thread all will unravel

[20:16] <delta> it is hailing seriously outside

[20:16] <DWROB> Those with power neither need nor want knowledge

[20:16] <chi> later they did realize they were wrong and erected statues to him

[20:16] <chi> they are not very specific

[20:16] <chi> he could have done anything

[20:16] <chi> new thoughts are always threatening

[20:16] <DWROB> it might interfere with he lies they use to keep people in line

[20:16] <psi> why they have power

[20:16] <mu> his knowledge was the cause of death for him

[20:16] <phi> they leave a lot out

[20:16] <kaf> S was having an influence on their future, the youth

[20:16] <DWROB> It was the cause of death

[20:16] <he> IS that why the most knowledgeable of people aren't in power

[20:16] <pi> exactly, undermining their facts undermines their authority

[20:16] <psi> it was the end

[20:17] <psi> like president bush

[20:17] <beta> even thought it wasn't intended

[20:17] <omicron> if the people don't believe in the gods then they don't have any power over them

[20:17] <kappa> Most knowledgeable people don't really want the power

[20:17] <gamma> they didn't want anyone questioning there rules in society

[20:17] <DWROB> he: No, in the Republic, Socrates says its because intelligent people don't care about things like material wealth and power, and therefore don't generally pursue them

[20:17] <omicron> the city them cant control the people

[20:17] <tau> there are still countries like that today

[20:17] <he> ah ha

[20:17] <yod> most leaders don't want questioning, do as your told

[20:17] <mu> that's why he thought for free

[20:18] <yod> you're sorry

[20:18] <DWROB> Look at the metaphor of the line,

[20:18] <aleph> it's easier to lead people that want to be followers rather than leaders

[20:18] <omega> ignorance is power as well

[20:18] <omega> it allows people to be ruled over

[20:18] <he> That is why Socrates had no money

[20:18] <kappa> Knowledgeable people can see material and power as corrupting

[20:18] <psi> its hard to leave people who want to be leaders

[20:18] <DWROB> The Metaphor of the line lays out Plato's ideas about the hierarchy of knowledge and reality

[20:18] <chi> because if the masses have knowledge they will question those in power

[20:18] <chi> Hale!

[20:18] <psi> Knowledgeable people are smart enough to realize that power is not all good

[20:18] <DWROB> Morality, beauty, the One (god) are at the top as most real; material things and images of them are at the bottom

[20:19] <DWROB> A wise man orients himself to the most real, the abstract spiritual things.

[20:19] <DWROB> A fool is concerned with material things, and ignorant of the higher things

[20:19] <beta> oh, okay

[20:19] <eta> yes yes

[20:19] <beta> i like that mora

[20:20] <kappa> But the fool also tends to have more influence on others

[20:20] <gamma> i agree

[20:20] <DWROB> OK, so S. goes tot he oracle, and hears that he is the wisest man on earth. But he doubts it.

[20:20] <pi> other like him

[20:20] <aleph> he is humble

[20:20] <DWROB> Here is the description of his next actions:

[20:20] <DWROB>

[20:20] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:20] <bet> that is smart

[20:20] <nu> and that is why he does what he does

[20:20] <DWROB>

[20:20] <DWROB>

[20:20] Last message repeated 1 time(s).

[20:20] <DWROB> Why do I mention this? Because I am going to explain to you why I have such an evil name. When I heard the answer, I said to myself, What can the god mean? and what is the interpretation of this riddle? for I know that I have no wisdom, small or great. What can he mean when he says that I am the wisest of men? And yet he is a god and cannot lie; that would be against his nature. After a long consideration, I at last thought of a method of trying the question.

[20:20] <nu> to prove the oracle wrong

[20:20] <DWROB> I reflected that if I could only find a man wiser than myself, then I might go to the god with a refutation in my hand. I should say to him, "Here is a man who is wiser than I am; but you said that I was the wisest." Accordingly I went to one who had the reputation of wisdom, and observed to him - his name I need not mention; he was a politician whom I selected for examination - and the result was as follows: When I began to talk with him, I could not help th

[20:20] <DWROB> inking that he was not really wise, although he was thought wise by many, and wiser still by himself; and I went and tried to explain to him that he thought himself wise, but was not really wise; and the consequence was that he hated me, and his enmity was shared by several who were present and heard me. So I left him, saying to myself, as I went away: Well, although I do not suppose that either of us knows anything really beautiful and good, I am better off t

[20:20] <DWROB> han he is - for he knows nothing, and thinks that he knows. I neither know nor think that I know. In this latter particular, then, I seem to have slightly the advantage of him. Then I went to another, who had still higher philosophical pretensions, and my conclusion was exactly the same. I made another enemy of him, and of many others besides him.

[20:20] <DWROB>

[20:20] <DWROB>

[20:21] <mu> so y would he state to the others that they really aren't wise isn't that a sign of arrogance stating that he is wiser than them

[20:21] <kappa> Quite an unenviable task to go tell someone they aren't as smart as they think

[20:21] <eta> I'm sure it makes them angry

[20:22] <chi> because they can only be lost by the person they cant be taken

[20:22] <chi> it's hard to believe something like that

[20:22] <tau> it embarrasses them

[20:22] <nu> he is wiser than them because he does not pretend to know about things he does not

[20:22] <bet> he just realizes that he is more enlightened

[20:22] <aleph> most people that think they know a lot are not very smart

[20:22] <he> A wise man doesn't say he is wise in areas he doesn't know anything about

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[20:22] <omicron> he says that the aren't wise but he doesn't say that he is

[20:22] <aleph> they are simply arrogant

[20:22] <tau> so a wise man does not say he is wise?

[20:22] <DWROB> apparently

[20:22] <eta> ahhhh

[20:22] <lambda> he is to wise to brag about his knowledge?

[20:22] <kappa> In the attitude that many held as being superior to anyone, it would hurt to be told you aren't that wise

[20:22] <DWROB> A wise man knows that he is mostly ignorant

[20:22] <pi4> he doesn't dwell on it

[20:22] <eta> the pride thing

[20:22] <pi4> its nothing to be prideful about

[20:22] <tau> only a wise man knows he knows nothing (talk about scrambling your brain)

[20:22] <rho> he is thinking outside the box

[20:22] <he> They think they are far wiser than they really are

[20:22] <DWROB> A fool thinks he knows a lot

[20:22] <bet> as does soc

[20:22] <mu> but he does so y saying he is wiser than them

[20:22] <beta> wise men probably don't brag

[20:23] <delta> he doesn't display pride

[20:23] <DWROB> What's the tone of this whole story S tells?

[20:23] <omega> he said he knew nothing as well

[20:23] <omega> in insulted then covered it up in away

[20:23] <beta> and the fool brags about it

[20:23] <DWROB> I S. serious?

[20:23] <kappa> He is doing a service, and its his duty to do so

[20:23] <omicron> that he is not arrogant

[20:23] <bet> he just tells the wrong he sees he does not show arrogance

[20:23] <aleph> he is trying to teach them

[20:23] <DWROB> is S. serious?

[20:23] <he> A little laughable

[20:23] <chi> there are always new things to learn and searching for new knowledge is what makes him smarter

[20:23] <nu> he is joking

[20:23] <bet> ye

[20:23] <yod> i think so ...

[20:23] <kaf> yes

[20:23] <tau> i believe so

[20:23] <aleph> yes

[20:23] <kappa> yes

[20:23] <rho> yes

[20:23] <nu> he is being light hearted'

[20:24] <delta> Maybe

[20:24] <phi> he is making them want to kill him even more isn't he?

[20:24] <he> He doesn't know why these people think they are wise

[20:24] <phi> yes

[20:24] <beta> he's testing the those around him to see if they understand

[20:24] <eta> he talks as if he were serious ... maybe he is sarcastic?

[20:24] <aleph> he believes he should try to help them even when they are persecuting him

[20:24] <mu> u cant really tell

[20:24] <yod> kinda need to see his facial expressions to be sure

[20:24] <psi> yes

[20:24] <eta> he seems serious

[20:24] <DWROB> but it's also funny -- the young men like to watch the old farts being humiliated, and they begin imitating Socrates themselves

[20:24] <gamma> yes, but he ridicules some of them for there comments that held know apparent ground

[20:24] <kaf> and they blame S

[20:24] <DWROB> true -- I will get to that

[20:24] <chi> yes

[20:24] <psi> ok

[20:24] <vav> ok

[20:24] <he> They blame Socrates for their ridicule

[20:24] <DWROB> So what does "corrupting the youth" really mean?

[20:25] <he> Enlightening them

[20:25] <eta> teaching them false things

[20:25] <DWROB> no!

[20:25] <nu> making them see how foolish the elders are

[20:25] <kappa> Teaching them new unaccepted ideas

[20:25] <delta> he is teaching them differently

[20:25] <DWROB> yes!

[20:25] <psi> that he is filling there heads with false teachings

[20:25] <kaf> having them question the "wise" as well

[20:25] <omicron> making them question things

[20:25] <rho> arrogance

[20:25] <psi> false literature

[20:25] <bet> showing them the truth telling them to question what they already know

[20:25] <tau> telling them their elders don't know anything

[20:25] <mu> teaching them what the others don't want them to know

[20:25] <DWROB> In effect, challenging the govt. line

[20:25] <gamma> leading them to question there early teachings and society

[20:25] <beta> see a new side to thinking

[20:25] <kaf> humiliating the older men

[20:25] <eta> what they believe to be false

[20:25] <psi> making them question things

[20:25] <lambda> teaching them things that are different

[20:25] <rho> the birth of a democracy

[20:25] <psi> if they gain this new thought, who will Athens have to fight its wars

[20:26] <DWROB> Now take a look at HOW S. argues. Here is an exchange with Meletus:

[20:26] <DWROB>

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[20:26] <DWROB> Come hither, Meletus, and let me ask a question of you. You think a great deal about the improvement of youth?

[20:26] <DWROB> Yes, I do.

[20:26] <DWROB> Tell the judges, then, who is their improver; for you must know, as you have taken the pains to discover their corrupter, and are citing and accusing me before them. Speak, then, and tell the judges who their improver is. Observe, Meletus, that you are silent, and have nothing to say. But is not this rather disgraceful, and a very considerable proof of what I was saying, that you have no interest in the matter? Speak up, friend, and tell us who their improver

[20:26] <DWROB> is.

[20:26] <chi> he makes them not want to listen to their elders

[20:26] <chi> being a bad influence

[20:26] <DWROB> The laws.

[20:26] <DWROB> But that, my good sir, is not my meaning. I want to know who the person is, who, in the first place, knows the laws.

[20:26] <DWROB> The judges, Socrates, who are present in court.

[20:26] <DWROB> What do you mean to say, Meletus, that they are able to instruct and improve youth?

[20:26] <DWROB> Certainly they are.

[20:26] <DWROB> What, all of them, or some only and not others?

[20:26] <DWROB> All of them.

[20:26] <DWROB> By the goddess Here, that is good news! There are plenty of improvers, then. And what do you say of the audience, - do they improve them?

[20:26] <DWROB> Yes, they do.

[20:26] <DWROB> And the senators?

[20:26] <DWROB> Yes, the senators improve them.

[20:26] <DWROB> But perhaps the members of the citizen assembly corrupt them? - or do they too improve them?

[20:27] <DWROB> They improve them.

[20:27] <DWROB> Then every Athenian improves and elevates them; all with the exception of myself; and I alone am their corrupter? Is that what you affirm?

[20:27] <DWROB> That is what I stoutly affirm.

[20:27] <DWROB> I am very unfortunate if that is true. But suppose I ask you a question: Would you say that this also holds true in the case of horses? Does one man do them harm and all the world good? Is not the exact opposite of this true? One man is able to do them good, or at least not many; - the trainer of horses, that is to say, does them good, and others who have to do with them rather injure them? Is not that true, Meletus, of horses, or any other animals? Yes, certa

[20:27] <DWROB> inly. Whether you and Anytus say yes or no, that is no matter. Happy indeed would be the condition of youth if they had one corrupter only, and all the

[20:27] <DWROB>

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[20:27] <beta> Socrates refused to be intimidated by the trial/judges

[20:27] <he> he called him out

[20:27] <DWROB> the end should be:

[20:27] <DWROB> Happy indeed would be the condition of youth if they had one corrupter only, and all the rest of the world were their improvers. And you, Meletus, have sufficiently shown that you never had a thought about the young: your carelessness is seen in your not caring about matters spoken of in this very indictment.

[20:27] <DWROB>

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[20:27] <omega> that he is derailing the youth from their intended destinies

[20:27] <psi> he did not give in to them

[20:27] <aleph> he shows they are being unreasonable about their accusations

[20:28] <nu> he made him contradict himself

[20:28] <psi> and showing the youth the correct way to him

[20:28] <DWROB> aleph: how does he show that?

[20:28] <psi> he was teaching them

[20:28] <DWROB> he is teaching them,. yes

[20:28] <DWROB> teaching them what?

[20:28] <aleph> because it is impossible to have only one bad evil corrupter

[20:28] <he> That he is no committing any crime by teaching

[20:28] <omicron> that they are not open-minded

[20:28] <gamma> there accusations are too broad, he has not done anything specifically wrong

[20:28] <DWROB> in general, though,what is his method?

[20:28] <nu> teaching them that they are just trying to get back at him and he has done nothing wrong

[20:28] <bet> he is only teaching

[20:28] <he> realization

[20:28] <DWROB> what has he done here?

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[20:29] <tau> instead of seeking the truth, he makes Meletus look stupid

[20:29] <delta> turning the tables on Meletus

[20:29] <rho> planted a seed

[20:29] <nu> nothing

[20:29] <kaf> He is trying to make them think rationally

[20:29] <he> He put in terms they can understand

[20:29] <DWROB> tau: how?

[20:29] <kappa> The accusations are unreasonable because one man can hardly corrupt a nation unless he is the leader

[20:29] <bet> made them think

[20:29] <yod> i think he's trying to have m. do a self check

[20:29] <nu> he contradicts himself

[20:29] <theta> he used the Socratic method

[20:29] <DWROB> checking what?

[20:29] <aleph> he keeps asking questions so they make the stupid statements instead of him

[20:29] <eta> he makes them think

[20:29] <mu> made his stories contradict themselves

[20:29] <DWROB> heh, the Socratic method, yes

[20:29] <tau> calls him out ... shows him he knows nothing

[20:29] <DWROB> and what is it?

[20:29] <yod> making him think about his own teachings

[20:29] <omicron> checking why they believe these things

[20:29] <DWROB> contradiction-- good

[20:30] <bet> clever

[20:30] <DWROB> he forces people to define their terms

[20:30] <he> That nobody knows anything

[20:30] <theta> he asks them questions so they answer the questions themselves ... much like you

[20:30] <kappa> once again proves his superiority as far as wisdom goes

[20:30] <DWROB> he exposes sloppy language and sloppy reasoning

[20:30] <delta> forces people to think

[20:30] <bet> and they cannot define their beliefs

[20:30] <rho> he out thinks the judges

[20:30] <DWROB> he pushes ideas to an extreme that reveals that they contain contradictory implications

[20:30] <beta> forces people to think outside the box

[20:30] <kappa> In this case he truly exposes weaknesses in their arguments

[20:30] <kaf> oh, I see

[20:30] <DWROB> the technique is called "eristic" and it is the first step toward wisdom

[20:30] <phi> he wants people to know what they believe in, instead of just saying it

[20:31] <mu> such as the god story

[20:31] <delta> that they could also be accused for what he is accused for?

[20:31] <DWROB> he is clearing away the nonsense that people believe to be true.

[20:31] <DWROB> You must know yourself to be ignorant before you can learn anything

[20:31] <DWROB> delta: that too.

[20:31] <beta> he wants them to learn for themselves, instead of just taking someone's word on it

[20:31] <chi> he tries to get them to justify themselves and then questions their minds

[20:31] <mu> if you think you know everything you cant learn anything

[20:32] <omega> personal inside yourself check

[20:32] <omega> that is what a teacher does

[20:32] <eta> there ya go

[20:32] <rho> not to be vain

[20:32] <lambda> knowing yourself is most important

[20:32] <aleph> you need to be humble

[20:32] <DWROB> That raises a question -- why does S do such a bad job of defending or even saving himself?

[20:32] <bet> yep all the above

[20:32] <bet> he doesn't need to does he

[20:32] <kappa> He wants to leave them without a winning situation to prove his point

[20:32] <beta> did S deliberately get himself found guilty and condemned to death to make a statement for future forward thinkers?

[20:32] <delta> he is focused on serving others'

[20:32] <aleph> because he knows that he will have to sacrifice what he believes to make them not punish him

[20:32] <nu> he defends himself by making them seem like even bigger idiots

[20:32] <DWROB> he says this to his accusers:

[20:32] <DWROB>

[20:32] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:32] <eta> because he makes his accusers feel as if they are wrong ... . not a good feeling

[20:32] <DWROB> Men of Athens, I honor and love you; but I shall obey God rather than you, and while I have life and strength I shall never cease from the practice and teaching of philosophy, exhorting anyone whom I meet after my manner, and convincing him, saying: O my friend, why do you who are a citizen of the great and mighty and wise city of Athens, care so much about laying up the greatest amount of money and honor and reputation, and so little about wisdom and truth a

[20:32] <gamma> b/c he does not act sorry are plead for innocence he wants to serve a purpose

[20:32] <DWROB> and the greatest improvement of the soul, which you never regard or heed at all? Are you not ashamed of this? And if the person with whom I am arguing says: Yes, but I do care; I do not depart or let him go at once; I interrogate and examine and cross-examine him, and if I think that he has no virtue, but only says that he has, I reproach him with undervaluing the greater, and overvaluing the less. And this I should say to everyone whom I meet, young and old, c

[20:32] <DWROB> citizen and alien, but especially to the citizens, inasmuch as they are my brethren. For this is the command of God, as I would have you know; and I believe that to this day no greater good has ever happened in the state than my service to the God. For I do nothing but go about persuading you all, old and young alike, not to take thought for your persons and your properties, but first and chiefly to care about the greatest improvement of the soul. I tell you th

[20:33] <DWROB> at virtue is not given by money, but that from virtue come money and every other good of man, public as well as private. This is my teaching, and if this is the doctrine which corrupts the youth, my influence is ruinous indeed. But if anyone says that this is not my teaching, he is speaking an untruth. Wherefore, O men of Athens, I say to you, do as Anytus bids or not as Anytus bids, and either acquit me or not; but whatever you do, know that I shall never alt

[20:33] <DWROB> er my ways, not even if I have to die many times.

[20:33] <DWROB>

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[20:33] <DWROB> the end especially

[20:33] <nu> he won't stop no matter what

[20:33] <DWROB> he is a very bad lawyer!

[20:33] <beta> did S deliberately get himself found guilty and condemned to death to make a statement for future forward thinkers?

[20:33] <DWROB> Well, that's been the effect

[20:33] <beta> okay

[20:33] <kappa> an even worse politician

[20:33] <aleph> he wants them so much to see where they are wrong even if it brings his death

[20:33] <DWROB> What does his condemnation mean, then?

[20:33] <yod> needs new counsel definitely

[20:34] <chi> he really makes people stop and think

[20:34] <chi> He knows he is right and he is sad that he has failed to enlighten them

[20:34] <aleph> his death

[20:34] <kaf> That is is right

[20:34] <beta> to the death

[20:34] <DWROB> chi: not a majority of the assembly!

[20:34] <bet> death

[20:34] <eta> he has pride

[20:34] <DWROB> is this pride?

[20:34] <rho> bye-bye

[20:34] <eta> yes

[20:34] <DWROB> Is Socrates a tragic figure?

[20:34] <nu> yes and no

[20:34] <beta> yes

[20:34] <mu> yes

[20:34] <kappa> yes

[20:34] <gamma> yes

[20:34] <aleph> not sure

[20:34] <omicron> yes

[20:34] <bet> yep

[20:34] <lambda> yes

[20:34] <delta> yes

[20:34] <kaf> yes

[20:34] <DWROB> does this sound like a tragic figure?

[20:34] <DWROB>

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[20:34] <eta> he would much rather keep his good name than admit he is wrong

[20:34] <he> j

[20:35] <pi4> death is tragic but he accomplishments are great

[20:35] <DWROB>

[20:35] <DWROB>

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[20:35] <nu> he said he does not wish to be a martyr

[20:35] <DWROB> You are my friends, and I should like to show you the meaning of this event which has happened to me. O my judges - for you I may truly call judges - I should like to tell you of a wonderful circumstance. Hitherto the familiar oracle within me has constantly been in the habit of opposing me even about trifles, if I was going to make a slip or error about anything; and now as you see there has come upon me that which may be thought, and is generally believed t

[20:35] <rho> The Athenians are, no Socrates for he lives on

[20:35] <DWROB> o be, the last and worst evil. But the oracle made no sign of opposition, either as I was leaving my house and going out in the morning, or when I was going up into this court, or while I was speaking, at anything which I was going to say; and yet I have often been stopped in the middle of a speech; but now in nothing I either said or did touching this matter has the oracle opposed me. What do I take to be the explanation of this? I will tell you. I regard thi

[20:35] <bet> like someone said b4 a martyr

[20:35] <DWROB> s as a proof that what has happened to me is a good, and that those of us who think that death is an evil are in error.

[20:35] <DWROB>

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[20:35] <beta> he stood up for what he thought was right and died for it, so yes!

[20:35] <mu> so he says death is good

[20:35] <nu> he doesn't see death as an end

[20:35] <he> yes

[20:35] <DWROB> so it's not a tragedy for Socrates

[20:35] <rho> no

[20:35] <phi> yes

[20:35] <kappa> not to him

[20:35] <eta> i guess not

[20:35] <DWROB> He is humble, not proud

[20:35] <he> trag. for the Ath.s

[20:36] <rho> right

[20:36] <mu> that death is certain to happen to everyone therefore saying he is lucky

[20:36] <gamma> he willing to take whatever they see fit for him

[20:36] <DWROB> But is there a tragedy lurking here somewhere?

[20:36] <bet> dying for something you believe in is honorable

[20:36] <nu> yes

[20:36] <he> For the people of Athens

[20:36] <aleph> that they do not see his wisdom

[20:36] <DWROB> ah

[20:36] <DWROB> Why them?

[20:36] <rho> Athenians society

[20:36] <bet> yes tragedy

[20:36] <chi> they are rejecting knowledge

[20:36] <chi> i don't think so

[20:36] <beta> to lose such a forward thinker

[20:36] <pi4> his death was almost necessary to make people see the severity of the situation, and also to actually stop and think about the things he was saying that got him executed

[20:36] <kappa> They don't know the mistake they are making

[20:36] <aleph> they are killing a wise man that can teach them

[20:36] <nu> because their pride won't let them see the truth

[20:36] <rho> They are no longer the great nation

[20:36] <DWROB> The Athenians are foolishly murdering their greatest son

[20:36] <he> They will meet their end later and by means far worse than S. met his downfall

[20:37] <gamma> he was given an incredible wisdom that the people ignored

[20:37] <DWROB> And how do they fall into this insane act?

[20:37] <pi4> the whole situation is a negative omen against Athens

[20:37] <omega> nope

[20:37] <DWROB> pi4: definitely

[20:37] <beta> they thought his wisdom could be dangerous

[20:37] <he> Their own stupidity

[20:37] <eta> the people were giving his wisdom as well whether they wanted it or not

[20:37] <DWROB> stupidity plus ... .

[20:37] <mu> accusations

[20:37] <kappa> Superiority complex and pride

[20:37] <bet> their own pride killed him

[20:37] <DWROB> stupidity plus ... .

[20:37] <DWROB> pride!

[20:37] <DWROB> right

[20:37] <DWROB> hubris

[20:37] <DWROB> Pride in their greatness, their power

[20:38] <gamma> they didn't want to be made to look like he had won against them

[20:38] <bet> leads to the downfall of any man

[20:38] <DWROB> And of course Athens DOES fall, and Plato is writing this after it has fallen

[20:38] <kappa> It can be hard to see what you have until its gone

[20:38] <he> Pride is their downfall

[20:38] <pi4> Socrates was Athens key to change but they shunned him instead sealing their own fate

[20:38] <psi> to much pride

[20:38] <DWROB> Plato in Socrates' student, one of those young men, and he is present in the assembly

[20:38] <beta> ah, foreshadowing

[20:38] <chi> for the Athenians

[20:38] <chi> they have closed the door to knowledge

[20:38] <chi> by fallowing one ignorant mans accusations

[20:38] <DWROB> watching his beloved teacher be murdered by arrogant fools

[20:38] <delta> did Plato always involve S. in some way

[20:39] <DWROB> Plato writes this deliberately as a tragedy

[20:39] <DWROB> since he knows the end!

[20:39] <psi> makes sense

[20:39] <he> smart guy

[20:39] <kappa> makes it better

[20:39] <bet> to give us as humans a lesson

[20:39] <chi> and loved his teacher

[20:39] <DWROB> OK, let's moves on to Thucydides

[20:39] <psi> ok

[20:39] <delta> more interesting

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[20:39] <gamma> Socrates served his purpose if people began to understand the knowledge he possessed

[20:39] <pi4> he sorta rubs how badly Athens screwed up in the readers face.

[20:39] <bet> we should think for ourselves

[20:39] <pi4> like an i told ya so

[20:40] <DWROB> pi4: yes

[20:40] <beta> yeah, more interesting

[20:40] <psi> something better to read

[20:40] <DWROB> there is also a general warning about the arrogance of greatness, of power

[20:40] <phi> much better story

[20:40] <chi> very wordy

[20:40] <bet> reoccurring theme

[20:40] <DWROB> Let's look at Pericles's funeral oration -- a very very famous speech

[20:40] <beta> one very long eulogy

[20:40] <DWROB>

[20:40] Last message repeated 3 time(s).

[20:40] <DWROB> Our constitution does not copy the laws of neighbouring states; we are rather a pattern to others than imitators ourselves. Its administration favours the many instead of the few; this is why it is called a democracy. If we look to the laws, they afford equal justice to all in their private differences; if no social standing, advancement in public life falls to reputation for capacity, class considerations not being allowed to interfere with merit; nor again

[20:41] <DWROB> does poverty bar the way, if a man is able to serve the state, he is not hindered by the obscurity of his condition. The freedom which we enjoy in our government extends also to our ordinary life. There, far from exercising a jealous surveillance over each other, we do not feel called upon to be angry with our neighbour for doing what he likes, or even to indulge in those injurious looks which cannot fail to be offensive, although they inflict no positive pena

[20:41] <DWROB> lty.

[20:41] <DWROB> "If we turn to our military policy, there also we differ from our antagonists. We throw open our city to the world, and never by alien acts exclude foreigners from any opportunity of learning or observing, although the eyes of an enemy may occasionally profit by our liberality; trusting less in system and policy than to the native spirit of our citizens; while in education, where our rivals from their very cradles by a painful discipline seek after manliness,

[20:41] <DWROB> at Athens we live exactly as we please, and yet are just as ready to encounter every legitimate danger.

[20:41] <chi> right

[20:41] <psi> right

[20:41] <DWROB> What does this remind you of?

[20:41] <pi4> talk about a pride filled Athenian, a good example of Hubris

[20:41] <psi> just like America

[20:41] <aleph> state of the union - we are soooo great

[20:41] <eta> the us

[20:42] <nu> America

[20:42] <kappa> America

[20:42] <DWROB> heh

[20:42] <DWROB> why?

[20:42] <omicron> America

[20:42] <he> Spread of democracy

[20:42] <pi4> do you fear our fall doc?

[20:42] <psi> because he have it all compared to other places

[20:42] <kappa> Feeling of superiority

[20:42] <beta> a nation above all others

[20:42] <he> for the "good" of all mankind

[20:42] <DWROB> pi4: yes

[20:42] <bet> all politics

[20:42] <nu> we get into conflicts that aren't' ore

[20:42] <psi> but yet can die tomorrow just like everyone else

[20:42] <eta> because we say that other countries model their government after our

[20:42] <aleph> we seem to think we are the best at everything

[20:42] <phi> America

[20:42] <DWROB> pi4: I haven't seen the end of the story yet

[20:42] <eta> i think we are the best ... but that's me

[20:42] <tau> i agree

[20:42] <bet> best

[20:42] <bet> me to

[20:42] <eta> but yes ... they thing they are the best and something to be very proud of

[20:42] <DWROB> eta: the Greeks see a danger lurking in such a thought, always

[20:43] <chi> propaganda

[20:43] <mu> which Athenians thought also

[20:43] <delta> politics

[20:43] <pi4> "best" can be measured in so many ways and can be interpreted in more

[20:43] <DWROB> The Athenians are a military and cultural superpower -- also economic, all because of their open, free system

[20:43] <aleph> according to Socrates, those that think they know, do not!

[20:43] <DWROB> They have a better government, and they know it

[20:43] <beta> yep

[20:43] <he> So they naturally have the power

[20:43] <DWROB> and it leads them to dominate their neighbors in various ways.

[20:43] <rho> they have a written language

[20:43] <he> power

[20:44] <chi> and they advertise it

[20:44] <DWROB> oh, they all could read by this time

[20:44] <mu> power through brute strength

[20:44] <DWROB> Here is a little more from the oration:

[20:44] <DWROB>

[20:44] <mu> brute

[20:44] <kaf> taking over their neighbors is dangerous

[20:44] <DWROB> Nor are these the only points in which our city is worthy of admiration. We cultivate refinement without extravagance and knowledge without effeminacy; wealth we employ more for use than for show, and place the real disgrace of poverty not in owning to the fact but in declining the struggle against it ... . And it is only the Athenians, who, fearless of consequences, confer their benefits not from calculations of expediency, but in the confidence of liberality.

[20:44] <DWROB> In short, I say that as a city we are the school of Hellas, while I doubt if the world can produce a man who, where he has only himself to depend upon, is equal to so many emergencies, and graced by so happy a versatility, as the Athenian. And that this is no mere boast thrown out for the occasion, but plain matter of fact, the power of the state acquired by these habits proves. For Athens alone of her contemporaries is found when tested to be greater than her

[20:44] <DWROB> reputation, and alone gives no occasion to her assailants to blush at the antagonist by whom they have been worsted, or to her subjects to question her title by merit to rule. Rather, the admiration of the present and succeeding ages will be ours ... .

[20:44] <DWROB>

[20:44] Last message repeated 1 time(s).

[20:44] <chi> they intimidate their rivals because of their reputation

[20:44] <pi4> they sound a lot like us, they were the best, they were prideful because of it, the went to far because of it ... and they fell because of it

[20:45] <DWROB> How does all this strike you?

[20:45] <beta> great foreshadowing of their demise

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[20:45] <omicron> arrogant

[20:45] <DWROB> And how would Athens' neighbors fell about it?

[20:45] <pi4> ominously

[20:45] <DWROB> feel

[20:45] <kappa> Like they feel highly of themselves

[20:45] <bet> arrogance

[20:45] <kappa> I'd be mad

[20:45] <he> They feel invincible

[20:45] <kaf> The gods don't like pride, destined to fail

[20:45] <DWROB> they do

[20:45] <mu> like they felt highly on themselves

[20:45] <beta> jealous, but not courageous enough to do anything about it

[20:45] <aleph> the are prideful

[20:46] <delta> arrogant

[20:46] <kappa> I'd also feel like it could be their downfall

[20:46] <DWROB> hubris is in the air -- and Thucydides also knows how to sneak a tragedy in through he back door.

[20:46] <rho> people within the society see the undoing

[20:46] <chi> like one big "We Are The Best" speech

[20:46] <chi> intimidated

[20:46] <he> They know someone some where will gain power like they did and challenge them

[20:46] <DWROB> This is not a speech in the spirit of Socrates, even though it is very inspiring

[20:46] <beta> they don't know that

[20:46] <gamma> it is only a matter of time before they would meet there match

[20:47] <bet> yep

[20:47] <DWROB> in fact, this speech lies at the root of our own nation's political philosophy

[20:47] <beta> what they know is that no one is willing to stand up to them

[20:47] <DWROB> we easily see ourselves sin it

[20:47] <kappa> it is very sneaky way of warning Athenians

[20:47] <aleph> pat yourselves on the back speech?

[20:47] <eta> yeah..

[20:47] <eta> and England

[20:47] <beta> yep

[20:47] <bet> definitely some resemblance

[20:47] <kappa> I agree, America is getting really arrogant

[20:47] <DWROB> England, yes, 150 years ago, same thing

[20:47] <delta> I agree

[20:47] <bet> will we f\all to?

[20:47] <DWROB> They recognized themselves and still failed to draw a lesson from it!

[20:47] <he> and look what happened

[20:48] <chi> it inspires arrogance

[20:48] <DWROB> arrogance is the danger, for many reasons

[20:48] <beta> we won't fall, but we won't have the ultimate power for long

[20:48] <kappa> Its hard to look in a mirror and see flaws when you are that arrogant

[20:48] <rho> they could not fail -is the thought

[20:48] <DWROB> let's look at the second excerpt, the Melian conference, which shows one kind of result of arrogance.

[20:48] <gamma> you begin to lose focus

[20:48] <DWROB> Remember who the Melians are?

[20:48] <he> yeah

[20:48] <gimmel> yea

[20:49] <kaf> islanders

[20:49] <DWROB> The opposed sides in the war are Athens and Sparta

[20:49] <eta> but they have faith int heir country.. which is not necessarily bad, but they also act as if they are indestructible

[20:49] <delta> yes

[20:49] <eta> yes.. island country

[20:49] <beta> a colony of the Lac's

[20:49] <eta> a neutral country

[20:49] <beta> *colony

[20:49] <DWROB> yes, the Melians are a colony of Sparta (Lacedoman)

[20:49] <DWROB> and they're a neutral state

[20:49] <he> Did Sparta ever have the same pride as Athens?

[20:49] <DWROB> Why do the Athenians insist on conquering them?

[20:49] <DWROB> he: no

[20:50] <beta> not conquer, just have control

[20:50] <kappa> to get closer to Sparta

[20:50] <rho> maybe, until they fault Athens

[20:50] <phi> no

[20:50] <aleph> because they know they can

[20:50] <eta> because they are different.. they are a supposed threat

[20:50] <kaf> To make them side with them

[20:50] <lambda> it is their culture

[20:50] <DWROB> they were a conservative, inward looking society

[20:50] <bet> because they want them under their pwr

[20:50] <gimmel> because they wouldn't side and they thought they sided with Sparta

[20:50] <tau> imperialism

[20:50] <DWROB> unlike Athens

[20:50] <delta> to get bigger

[20:50] <gimmel> they wanted them to let them rule

[20:50] <he> They wanted the power and to spread the Athenian way of life

[20:50] <mu> more numbers

[20:50] <DWROB> But Melos is tiny and insignificant

[20:50] <chi> they think their the best they will get lazy

[20:50] <chi> they were more savage

[20:50] <chi> even their women engaged in war

[20:50] <chi> because they pose a threat to their power

[20:50] <mu> show their superiority

[20:50] <bet> bigger is better

[20:50] <delta> maybe they had their picks no significant reason

[20:50] <DWROB> It's like the US being worked up about Cuba.

[20:51] <kaf> The Athenians that they are entitle to an Empire that includes the Melians

[20:51] <DWROB> Whoops -- we ARE worked up about Cuba -- why?

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[20:51] <kappa> Its like when Hitler was given some land, he kept going for more until he caused a big war

[20:51] <beta> communists

[20:51] <mu> they were saying no to them

[20:51] <tau> Castro

[20:51] <nu> communism

[20:51] <aleph> because they are located near us

[20:51] <DWROB> never mind communists

[20:51] <eta> because they have different ideals

[20:51] yod (~yod@ joined #2111web.

[20:51] <he> B?C they differ in their beliefs from America

[20:51] <DWROB> why do we care?

[20:51] <eta> and located very close to us

[20:51] <omicron> gain more land

[20:51] <DWROB> proximity -- yes

[20:51] <kaf> fear take over

[20:51] <psi> because they want the land

[20:51] <bet> more $ more power

[20:51] <nu> it is different from our beliefs

[20:51] <mu> they would not agree o Athenians therefore defying them

[20:51] <tau> because we want to impose our thinking on them

[20:51] <gimmel> land

[20:51] <he> B/c communism is viewed as a threat

[20:51] <beta> could be dangerous to us

[20:51] <DWROB> The Cubans cannot take us over!

[20:51] <gamma> you don't want significant differences so close together

[20:51] <DWROB> I promise

[20:52] <psi> they don't have the force or power

[20:52] <nu> it's the point

[20:52] <DWROB> gamma: why not?

[20:52] <bet> more tax money

[20:52] <delta> trade/immigration

[20:52] <rho> china

[20:52] <he> Well ill sleep better tonight

[20:52] <lambda> because they can

[20:52] <psi> then they clash

[20:52] <eta> communism was viewed as a very great threat back int he day ... it was like modern day terrorism ... it has just carried over

[20:52] <DWROB> he: yes, don't worry about Cuba.

[20:52] <aleph> their ideas may start to appeal to people in this country

[20:52] <gamma> b/c it leads to controversy

[20:52] <nu> we think we do them a favor by telling them what to do

[20:52] <pi4> but they frustrate us because they are a neighboring country who is completely useless to our purposes

[20:52] <chi> they are expanding their empire

[20:52] <chi> because they can

[20:52] <chi> because it's close to home

[20:52] <mu> we have allies all around us

[20:53] <DWROB> eta: I think it goes beyond Comm. The point is, we are great, they are small, they are near us, they should be aligned with us, and if they aren't, it is a sign that we are weak.

[20:53] <psi> they are no help at all

[20:53] <psi> Cuban cigars

[20:53] <bet> for importing

[20:53] <eta> i see

[20:53] <delta> makes sense

[20:53] <DWROB> Same with Athens and Melos.

[20:53] <kaf> Just as the Athenians felt

[20:53] <rho> Poland thought the soviets were a allie to.

[20:53] <he> Maybe after Fidel

[20:53] <bet> nice vacation area

[20:53] <beta> ok, that makes more sense

[20:53] <DWROB> The communist stuff is mainly an excuse, certainly nowadays

[20:53] <psi> like Puerto Rico

[20:53] <phi> don't want an enemy that close

[20:53] <delta> its all about superiority

[20:53] <DWROB> who cares about communism now??

[20:53] <DWROB> it's over

[20:54] <psi> no one

[20:54] <he> yeah

[20:54] <yod> true

[20:54] <beta> sort of

[20:54] <DWROB> OK, a quote

[20:54] <gimmel> right

[20:54] <kappa> But they are a problem for US, a lot of Cubans are trying to get into America causing immigration problems

[20:54] <bet> i don't care

[20:54] <mu> so we are just like Athens

[20:54] <psi> we just see them a nothing

[20:54] <eta> its not a great threat now that there is no longer a powerful USSR

[20:54] <kaf> I think we will be more respected if we respect others

[20:54] <gamma> you want to be proactive and not reactive

[20:54] <DWROB>

[20:54] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:54] <gimmel> i don't think immigrants are a very big deal to us

[20:54] <DWROB> Athenians. For ourselves, we shall not trouble you with specious pretenses- either of how we have a right to our empire because we overthrew the Mede, or are now attacking you because of wrong that you have done us- and make a long speech which would not be believed; and in return we hope that you, instead of thinking to influence us by saying that you did not join the Lacedaemonians, although their colonists, or that you have done us no wrong, will aim at eh

[20:54] <DWROB> at is feasible, holding in view the real sentiments of us both; since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.

[20:54] <DWROB>

[20:54] <rho> Russia and china just signed military practice agreement

[20:54] <DWROB>

[20:54] <DWROB> we can absorb immigrants, as history shows

[20:54] <pi4> its like even though they technically aren't harming us in any way, our pride makes us want to make them do exactly what we want them to

[20:54] <DWROB> read, read

[20:55] <DWROB> "Right ... as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."

[20:55] <DWROB> What are the Athenians saying, then?

[20:55] <bet> they don't want them to join the Lacedemonians and gang up against them

[20:56] <bet> join us

[20:56] <gamma> survival of the fittest

[20:56] <aleph> the strong will prevail

[20:56] <DWROB> no, they aren't afraid of Melos, really!

[20:56] <beta> we just want to have control of your island

[20:56] <he> Join or suffer what they

[20:56] <pi4> basically the Athenians are saying lets not dance around and make up issues the real issue is were stronger and that's the bottom line, were taking over

[20:56] <kaf> We are stronger, and if you don't fold you will suffer

[20:56] <he> must

[20:56] <chi> exactly

[20:56] <chi> The USSR could be a tragic hero

[20:56] <DWROB> It's like being afraid of Brooklet.

[20:56] bet ( left irc: Quit

[20:56] <kappa> Join or suffer

[20:56] <delta> Haaaaah

[20:56] <beta> yep, i agree with xxxx

[20:56] <gamma> they can join or become like the rest who tried the Athenians

[20:56] <psi> oh yea

[20:56] <DWROB> What kind of argument are they making?

[20:56] <delta> I also agree with xxxx

[20:56] <mu> The lacs were strong as well

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[20:57] <DWROB> What is the argument based on?

[20:57] <omicron> war

[20:57] <beta> superiority

[20:57] <he> power

[20:57] <kappa> Their superiority

[20:57] <mu> power

[20:57] <delta> If you don't join us you won't succeed

[20:57] <DWROB> power -- yes

[20:57] <gamma> previous dominance of the Athenians

[20:57] <lambda> superiority

[20:57] <nu> strong make the weak suffer

[20:57] <DWROB> Might makes right.

[20:57] <tau> bully

[20:57] <omicron> military strength

[20:57] <DWROB> so why don't the Melians see the light and do as the Athenians say?

[20:57] <DWROB> The Athenians promise good terms, after all

[20:57] <beta> pride

[20:57] <pi4> they believe that gods favor them because they are just

[20:58] <mu> pride

[20:58] <DWROB> ho ho!

[20:58] <aleph> they think they will be protected

[20:58] <tau> they would rather try and fail ... hubris

[20:58] <he> Because to them that isn't the "light"

[20:58] <DWROB> the gods

[20:58] <omicron> they realize they cant out power them

[20:58] <kappa> They feel they will be favored by the gods

[20:58] <pi4> and they have faith that the gods will help them over Athens

[20:58] <tau> oh, they believed the gods were on their side?

[20:58] <gamma> the Athenians ways are not for them

[20:58] <beta> but the Athenians argue that the gods will favor them equally

[20:58] <kaf> They think that being "right" is enough

[20:58] <mu> and the lacs would help them

[20:58] <chi> that because they are weak they should just except that this is going to happen

[20:58] <chi> a logic alone

[20:58] <chi> logic

[20:58] <chi> the obvious

[20:58] <eta> everyone seems to think the gods or God is on their side

[20:58] <pi4> everyone believes the gods are on their side

[20:58] <DWROB> They believe that moral RIGHT )the gods) is on their side

[20:58] <DWROB> ee

[20:58] <DWROB> side

[20:58] <phi> brooklet has some scary people

[20:58] <phi> superiority

[20:59] <delta> haah

[20:59] <pi4> they don't see how the gods would allow Athens to take over for the sole reason being greed

[20:59] <DWROB> Brooklet -- bad craziness, it's true

[20:59] <beta> whats that got to do with the story?

[20:59] <he> I agree xxxx

[20:59] <DWROB> Do you see a familiar pattern here yet?

[20:59] <rho> Hercules and Zena, the Greeks do have

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[20:59] <DWROB> Where is Thucydides sneaking a tragedy in?

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[21:00] <DWROB> Who is the tragic hero?

[21:00] <delta> in the very end

[21:00] <he> M

[21:00] <aleph> Athens

[21:00] <tau> Melos

[21:00] <DWROB> which???

[21:00] <pi4> Melos

[21:00] <gimmel> Athens

[21:00] <delta> Melos

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[21:00] <beta> since the mel's don't cave in, they become slaves

[21:00] <gimmel> oops

[21:00] <eta> Melos

[21:00] <DWROB> All the Melians are murdered or enslaved, yes

[21:00] <he> they fall

[21:00] <gimmel> why is it Melos?

[21:00] <DWROB> the men are murdered

[21:00] <DWROB> is it Melos?

[21:00] <tau> Melos gets slaughtered

[21:00] <DWROB> Is that tragic?

[21:00] <eta> YES

[21:00] <eta> umm

[21:00] <beta> yes

[21:00] <delta> yes

[21:00] <gimmel> not really ...

[21:00] <DWROB> why not?

[21:01] <he> IF they are rewarded by the gods then no

[21:01] <eta> well ... Athens doesn't really suffer

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[21:01] <beta> of course it is, they are all murdered or sold for slaves

[21:01] <DWROB> Are the Melians arrogant? do they display hubris?

[21:01] <eta> do they?

[21:01] iota ( joined #2111web.

[21:01] <eta> unless you include their arrogance

[21:01] <beta> yes

[21:01] <gimmel> i thought that if the gods favored them then it wouldn't be

[21:01] <DWROB> really??

[21:01] <kappa> slightly

[21:01] <pi4> its tragic because by rights Melos deserves victory over Athens

[21:01] <DWROB> Why do the Melians resist?

[21:01] <chi> right

[21:01] <chi> they think as the Greeks did that fate rests in the hands of the gods

[21:01] <chi> No one

[21:01] <chi> Athens

[21:01] <chi> Melos accepts their fate they don't see it as tragic

[21:01] <tau> i guess not ... Athens is the arrogant one

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[21:01] <pi4> and because they don't get it its a tragedy

[21:01] <nu> they think the gods are on their side

[21:01] <gimmel> yea hurl

[21:01] <omicron> if they were arrogant then they wouldn't have gave in to the Athenians'

[21:01] <he> ha

[21:02] <gimmel> that's what i think too

[21:02] <eta> well the Melians are proud of their land and trust they are right ... as every country /colony does

[21:02] <DWROB> Right, the Athenians are unmatched in arrogance -- refer back to Pericles -- we are the greatest!

[21:02] <beta> but mel's are arrogant too, b/c they know they will lose if they fight

[21:02] <pi4> the Melians are sorta like Socrates

[21:02] <DWROB> We are doing you a favor by conquering you!

[21:02] <delta> they thinks the gods are on their side

[21:02] <gamma> they stood up for what they believed and suffered b/c of it

[21:02] <mu> making them join them is helping them

[21:02] <DWROB> delta: the Melians want to be free, and would rather die than give up their freedom

[21:02] <he> Kinda like the middle east

[21:02] <beta> that is arrogant too

[21:02] <DWROB> That is not the same as arrogance, is it?

[21:02] <DWROB> Really?

[21:02] <beta> yes

[21:03] <nu> sounds like Iraq

[21:03] <pi4> the want of freedom isn't arrogance

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[21:03] <def> yes

[21:03] <omicron> isn't that pride

[21:03] <beta> prideful

[21:03] <DWROB> Then Socrates must be arrogant too -- it looks the same

[21:03] <delta> it does look the same

[21:03] <beta> i don't see that

[21:03] <DWROB> see what?

[21:03] <chi> no it's reality

[21:03] <beta> how s can be like the mel's

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[21:03] <kaf> The Melians tried to point out to them that others will fear them and try to overthrow them if they make them join

[21:03] <DWROB> he prefers to die rather than compromise his moral principles

[21:03] <pi4> its not arrogant to be patriotic

[21:03] <he> S could be arrogant in is knowledge but he isn't

[21:04] <DWROB> He is unimpressed by the raw power directed against him

[21:04] <chi> these people are realistic

[21:04] <DWROB> Likewise the Melians

[21:04] <he> why would he be?

[21:04] <beta> but the Mel's weren't fighting for morals, they were fighting for freedom

[21:04] <he> he is smarter then they will ever be

[21:04] <pi4> these people realize they wont win, they aren't trying to kid themselves, but the die trying

[21:04] <pi4> that's not arrogance

[21:04] <mu> true

[21:04] <eta> its pride

[21:04] <DWROB> The Athenians are realistic -- but the real (the material, that is) isn't everything -- there is also the moral, the true, the beautiful

[21:04] <gamma> standing up for what you believe does not mean arrogance

[21:04] <kaf> That they are not

[21:05] <DWROB> The Athenians are the arrogant tragic heroes here, and they get their come-uppance

[21:05] <DWROB> What happens to them?

[21:05] <DWROB> gamma: agreed

[21:05] <pi4> the Athenians feel that because they are powerful they deserve everything

[21:05] <delta> they eventually fall

[21:05] <he> toppled

[21:05] <kappa> they lose eventually

[21:05] <kaf> Fall

[21:05] <eta> eventually ...

[21:05] <DWROB> why / how does mighty Athens fall?

[21:05] <kappa> hubris

[21:05] <beta> destroyed

[21:05] <chi> the fight for freedom is a powerful one

[21:05] <chi> They fall in the end

[21:05] <DWROB> I mean materially why?

[21:05] <lambda> they don't think they can fall

[21:05] <rho> some bigger and badder came along

[21:05] delta (April@ left irc: Quit

[21:06] <pi4> Rome?

[21:06] <he> They were fighting for the wrong reasons. Eventually their greed overtakes rational decision making

[21:06] <DWROB> rho: yes, but look who -- a coalition of states who fear and hate Athens enough to take up arms and fight relentlessly

[21:06] <mu> they tried to conquer too many countries

[21:06] <DWROB> Athens' arrogance inspires HATRED

[21:06] <tau> didn't someone else conquer them?

[21:06] <beta> that's it - they lose their reasoning ability

[21:06] <aleph> they made enemies

[21:06] <DWROB> That is why motivates her enemies

[21:06] <pi4> they pissed the world off and the world collectively fought back

[21:06] <DWROB> what

[21:06] <beta> hatred/jealousy

[21:06] <kappa> Hatred is a beast

[21:06] <DWROB> yes

[21:06] <DWROB> right

[21:07] <eta> they made enemies.. didn't the Melians say that wold happen?

[21:07] <pi4> wow sorta sounds like how the world feels about America

[21:07] <theta> so, they fell from within, like all great nations ...

[21:07] <DWROB> That is the warning for future imperial powers, and that's my sermon for the evening!

[21:07] <gamma> you piss too many people off you are going to run into the wrong enemies

[21:07] <beta> right xxxx!

[21:07] <DWROB> no, they fell from the hatred they inspired outside!

[21:07] <DWROB> sound familiar in any way?

[21:07] <DWROB> ah -- yes

[21:07] <theta> haha. oh yeah ... much like us

[21:07] <DWROB> hadn't read

[21:07] <aleph> sounds like the US

[21:07] <he> indeed

[21:07] <eta> but i like us

[21:08] <gimmel> me too

[21:08] <DWROB> so not a prediction, but an analogy, and an pretty ugly one

[21:08] <pi4> so our pissing off the UN is sorta setting us up for the world to say "hey America you don't rule us so all together were gonna kick your ass"

[21:08] <gamma> let's hope it is not the same outcome

[21:08] <he> i like me 3

[21:08] <pi4> wow this sorta sucks

[21:08] <chi> and they make stupid mistakes

[21:08] <DWROB> Never let it be said that 2500 year old history is irrelevant to the present day

[21:08] <he> yes lets do hope

[21:08] <beta> true

[21:08] <beta> *true

[21:08] <DWROB> We are done!

[21:08] tau (~tau@ left irc: Quit

[21:08] kappa (~kappa@ left irc: Quit

[21:08] <he> yeah bye

[21:08] <gimmel> byebye

[21:08] <theta> bye

[21:08] <rho> all good must come to a end

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[21:08] eta (~eta@ left irc: Quit

[21:08] gimmel (~gimmel@ left irc: Quit

[21:08] <kaf> goodnight

[21:08] <yod> nite!

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[21:10] <beta> dr rob?

[21:11] <beta> i sent you an email about my odyssey quiz- haven't gotten a response yet

[21:12] <DWROB> OH

[21:12] <DWROB> what is the problem again?

[21:12] <beta> it won't let me update (as of last night) question #3

[21:12] <DWROB> you may have gotten lost int he shuffle -- there have been a few glitches of late

[21:12] <beta> but it let me update #5

[21:12] <DWROB> Now it will work -- try again.

[21:12] <upsilon> Dr. Rob, how are our quizzes graded?

[21:12] <beta> i emailed you my answer

[21:12] <DWROB> I fixed it at 3 pm today

[21:12] <beta> ok

[21:13] <DWROB> please post the answers the usual way

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[21:13] <upsilon> If we pass the quizzes is that an A?

[21:14] <DWROB> yes

[21:14] <upsilon> ok thanks

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