Chat: ENGL 2111 (World Literature I) Winter 2005

Chat 15: Shakespeare, Hamlet

Shakespeare, Hamlet

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[19:49] Topic changed on #2111web by DWROB!DWROB@ Shakespeare and the absent-minded prince

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[19:53] <chi> Hamlet is not absent-minded

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[19:55] <DWROB> I know I was supposed to do something ... yell at my mother? ... kill Polonius? ... drive Ophelia nuts? ... hmmmm. no ... ..

[19:55] <DWROB> what WAS it?

[19:56] <chi> haha

[19:56] <vav> Kill the king!

[19:56] <chi> he's just going thru a hard time

[19:56] <DWROB> Ack! That's right!!

[19:57] <DWROB> Avenge my father, yes!

[19:57] <chi> I do feel bad for Ophelia

[19:57] <DWROB> O what a rogue and peasant slave am I!!

[19:57] <rho> or should he?

[19:57] <chi> how could you forget what a ghost tells you to do

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[19:58] <chi> how many conversations with a ghost could he have had?

[19:58] <DWROB> ... fence with Laertes? ... chat with Rosencrantz and Guildenstern ... murder them? ... No ... .

[19:58] <chi> i know I wouldn't forget

[19:58] <DWROB> Looks like he forgot again

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[19:59] <chi> who says vengeance has to be immediate?


[19:59] <vav> switch the letters, and have them kill Ro. and Gu,

[19:59] <chi> he needed time to plot and plan

[20:00] <DWROB> Vengeance is demanded at the start of the play, which is S's longest. It doesn't happen until the last page almost.

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[20:00] <delta> yes long wait

[20:00] <beta> that's the suspense

[20:00] <DWROB> chi: "Now will I do it! ... Naaaaaah!"

[20:00] <rho> It keeps you reading

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[20:01] <chi> but look at all the cool stuff in the middle

[20:01] <chi> you have to have patience

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[20:02] <DWROB> Welcome to the LAST CHAT

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[20:02] <DWROB> before we begin (or continue) I want to make sure you have seen the SURVEY instructions and the COURSE EVAL instructions -- yes?

[20:02] <vav> Already?

[20:02] <tau0> yes

[20:02] <aleph> yes

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[20:02] <rho> yes

[20:03] <delta> yes

[20:03] <DWROB> surveys on Knowledge surveyor, evals on WebCT

[20:03] <vav> finished it

[20:03] <DWROB> Will anybody have trouble with WebCT?

[20:03] <aleph> no

[20:03] <kappa> no

[20:03] <lambda> yes

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[20:03] <rho> not i

[20:03] <he> naw

[20:03] <tau0> no

[20:03] <delta> no

[20:03] <beta> webct is fine

[20:03] <DWROB> Let me know if you do have trouble with either thing

[20:03] <theta> i don't think i will

[20:03] <DWROB> The final will open on Friday at noon

[20:03] <beta> we do the KS just like before?

[20:04] <DWROB> and it will close at the end of the exam period -- whenever that is, I have to check

[20:04] <kappa> when will the final be closed?

[20:04] <kappa> alright

[20:04] <DWROB> beta: just like before

[20:04] <eta> ok

[20:04] <beta> thanks

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[20:04] <rho> This Friday?

[20:04] <delta> what about our quizzes that we made corrections on?

[20:04] <DWROB> This Friday the exam opens

[20:05] <DWROB> the survey is open now

[20:05] <DWROB> evals are open now

[20:05] <beta> will the final be just like the other tests?

[20:05] <gamma> when do all the quizzes need to be done by

[20:05] <DWROB> Mr. Rutherford is on the quizzes. I will be grading the last exam

[20:05] <DWROB> they need to be done by Friday -- the quizzes

[20:05] <gamma> thank you

[20:05] <eta> oh dang

[20:05] <DWROB> final is just a third exam, the same as the others

[20:06] <beta> thanks

[20:06] <DWROB> oh dang why?

[20:06] <kappa> awesome

[20:06] <vav> How do you access past chats?

[20:06] <eta> i need to catch up on those quizzes quick

[20:06] <DWROB> there is a link on my homepage, far right on the navbar

[20:06] <dalet> i wish the exams were graded to make sure i did them right

[20:06] <DWROB> It takes you ultimately to a horrible glob of text

[20:06] <pi> I've never used webct and its not letting me log in with my wings name and password like it says

[20:06] <DWROB> sorry

[20:07] <DWROB> pi: OK, then you need to call WebCT support

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[20:07] <pi> aiight

[20:07] <dalet> quiz need to be done by midnight fri?

[20:07] <DWROB> yes

[20:07] <DWROB> or you turn into a pumpkin

[20:07] <pi> and the final opens at noon this friday?

[20:07] <pi> haha

[20:07] <delta> haha

[20:07] <dalet> anyone for pie?

[20:07] <DWROB> Yes, or I turn into a pumpkin

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[20:08] <pi> you're a trip man

[20:08] <beta> pie?

[20:08] <DWROB> souffle

[20:08] <dalet> i turn into a pumpkin

[20:08] <DWROB> OK ...

[20:08] <beta> haha

[20:08] <DWROB> Which authors does Shakespeare seem to echo?

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[20:09] <pi> Greek

[20:09] <beta> chaucer/dante

[20:09] <DWROB> who Greek?

[20:09] <delta> dante

[20:09] <DWROB> and why?

[20:09] <dalet> chaucer

[20:09] <DWROB> always say why

[20:09] <beta> they have some of the same themes

[20:09] <aleph> Euripeades because there is no happy ending

[20:09] <lambda> chaucer

[20:09] <eta> chaucer..

[20:09] <delta> because of the style/themes

[20:09] <dalet> his difficult english

[20:09] <DWROB> no happy ending -- well, it's a tragedy

[20:09] <gamma> they al sound alike these days

[20:09] <dalet> yep

[20:10] <DWROB> heh, well, the English is real, not trranslated

[20:10] <he> same time?

[20:10] <beta> starting to rum together

[20:10] <beta> *run

[20:10] <rho> would it be considered aepic?

[20:10] <dalet> no

[20:10] <pi> no

[20:10] <lambda> not an epic

[20:10] <DWROB> no, an epic is a narrative; this is a drama

[20:10] <dalet> trajedy

[20:10] <beta> nope, a tragedy

[20:10] <DWROB> but the themes may be the same as in an epic, sure

[20:10] <chi> He follows some of Aristotle's tragic guidelines

[20:10] <rho> ok

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[20:10] <dalet> whats diff in trajedy and drama

[20:10] <dalet> ?

[20:10] <DWROB> chi: somewhat -- not as well as Euripides, though

[20:11] <eta> the main character has a fatal flaw in a tragedy doest he?

[20:11] <DWROB> dalet: drama covers comedy tragedy romance everything

[20:11] <dalet> ok

[20:11] <pi> drama is anything dramatic

[20:11] <vav> Moral

[20:11] <DWROB> eta: yes, usually hubris -- pride. What is the problem with Hamlet?

[20:11] <pi> hes nuts

[20:11] <lambda> he is crazy

[20:11] <theta> he's too stuck on revenge

[20:11] <theta> like Medea

[20:12] <kappa> he sees a ghost and becomes psycho

[20:12] <beta> forgetful

[20:12] <tau> crazy

[20:12] <delta> crazy and vengeful

[20:12] <dalet> too vengeful

[20:12] <beta> he's not crazy

[20:12] <chi> his flaw is his indecision to act

[20:12] <rho> absent minded

[20:12] <eta> he is obeying the ghost ...

[20:12] <DWROB> is isn't is isn't

[20:12] <delta> indecisive

[20:12] <beta> "contemplative and thoughtful"

[20:12] <eta> but he is a bit nuts

[20:12] <DWROB> Why is he so forgetful and indecisive?

[20:12] <theta> he's impulsive

[20:12] <pi> maybe he wasn't completely crazy like Ophelia but he lost something there

[20:12] <beta> to put it optimistically

[20:12] <dalet> has too much on his mind

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[20:12] <vav> He is raged by his fathers untimley death and his mothers incestuous marriage

[20:12] <delta> a lot going on

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[20:13] <rho> what is right and wrong

[20:13] <gamma> way to many emotions at one time

[20:13] <kappa> father's death and his mom being "incestuous"

[20:13] <DWROB> I have a lot going on, but I haven't killed as many people as Hamlet yet

[20:13] <vav> to make people believe he is crazy

[20:13] <delta> he is battling between what the right thing to do is

[20:13] <dalet> it would be ok back then

[20:13] <lambda> trying to do the right thing is hard

[20:13] <theta> ... yet ... haha

[20:13] <chi> one of the main questions about this tragedy is whether or not he's just faking being crazy

[20:13] <vav> in order to kill the king

[20:13] <kappa> different time periods

[20:13] <chi> he wants people to think he's crazy so they will leave him alone

[20:13] <theta> well, back in the day, murder wasn't as big a deal as it is now ... there was fighting going on all the time

[20:13] <DWROB> yes, and the last person to know if he's really crazy is hamlet himself

[20:14] <dalet> true, u cant tell if he is REALLY crazy

[20:14] <eta> he is supposedly faking, but i think he really is

[20:14] <DWROB> OK, let's compare him to Medea.

[20:14] <pi> hes all depressed because of the really crappy turn of events and he sings about suicide but then the ghost gives him reason to really project his emotions somewhere else, and it consumes his mind

[20:14] <DWROB> how are they different?

[20:14] <kappa> he is already noble family

[20:14] <dalet> life caused them to commit their fate

[20:14] <chi> Medea was crazy

[20:14] <rho> they want revenge

[20:14] <kappa> he is male and therefore automatically higher up

[20:15] <delta> I thought they were alike

[20:15] <beta> vengeance

[20:15] <DWROB> chi: Medea is completely in control, though

[20:15] <lambda> he acts for vengeance; her revenge

[20:15] <DWROB> She does what she promises.

[20:15] <delta> yes more control over situations

[20:15] <chi> Medea didn't die in the end

[20:15] <dalet> Medea killed her own children, very different

[20:15] <delta> she also rode out in the end too

[20:15] <vav> Medea killed for revenge and so did Hamlet

[20:15] <vav> Isn't Hamlet?

[20:15] <eta> Medea was just nuts ... without trying to pretend

[20:15] <he> but Medea doesn't die

[20:15] <dalet> right, Medea seemed like she went out with a bang

[20:15] <pi> Medea executed her revenge in a more brutal way, Hamlet farted around and let himself go nuts

[20:16] <DWROB> Well, what does it take to get Hamlet to the point of killing Claudius?

[20:16] <DWROB> farted is right

[20:16] <beta> finding out more truths

[20:16] <chi> their tragedy was elevated by their own actions

[20:16] <chi> in control yes, but only a crazy woman would kill her kids

[20:16] <kappa> his mom dying

[20:16] <dalet> he knew he was about to die, so what the hell

[20:16] <delta> fear

[20:16] <DWROB> chi: I don't think she's crazy, but with Hamlet I don't know

[20:16] <DWROB> dalet: exactly

[20:16] <pi> its his last chance to get that revenge

[20:16] <beta> L tells H that O is responsible for his mother's death by poison

[20:16] <eta> he didn’t even care if he dies at the beginning of the story

[20:17] <DWROB> he delays and delays and delays until he is about to die -- whoops, better do it now

[20:17] <pi> everybody else has just bit the dust and hes on his way out too so he finally settles his business

[20:17] <dalet> i don’t think Hamlet truly wanted to die

[20:17] <DWROB> He doesn't seem in control at all, to me anyway

[20:17] <lambda> Medea doesn’t play around

[20:17] <vav> Seeing how people would fight over such small of thing as land

[20:17] <dalet> changing the letters on the boat was in control

[20:17] <delta> not of his emotions very much

[20:17] <DWROB> dalet: he seems fascinated with suicide and also afraid of death -0- issues, issues

[20:17] <beta> but the straw that broke the camel's back is when he found O poisoned the drink his mother died from

[20:17] <DWROB> right

[20:18] <rho> he's not even in control of his own mind

[20:18] <chi> Claudius tries to kill him

[20:18] <pi> his emotions and his damaged psyche controlled his actions, Medea’s brutality controlled hers

[20:18] <DWROB> Medea is scary, but her mind is clear.

[20:18] <DWROB> Hamlet is brilliantly intelligent, but his mind is murky

[20:18] <dalet> but, why did his mother drink the wine?

[20:18] <kappa> Hamlet seems to have gone over the edge and become completely crazy

[20:18] <dalet> she knew C wanted to kill H

[20:18] <DWROB> It was a toast

[20:19] <dalet> dummy

[20:19] <DWROB> So much for Medea ... How about Hamlet and Odysseus -- they are the two smartest characters in Western literature

[20:19] <DWROB> How are they different?

[20:19] <delta> O was more powerful

[20:19] <dalet> Odysseus ended triumphantly

[20:19] <DWROB> powerful?

[20:20] <rho> O had foresight

[20:20] <DWROB> right, it's not a tragedy

[20:20] <delta> in the end of course

[20:20] <aleph> O is after adventure, Hamlet for pure revenge

[20:20] <dalet> had many women

[20:20] <eta> physically strong

[20:20] <kappa> Hamlet is not being screwed by the Gods rather by his own uncle

[20:20] <dalet> sowed his oats, and had fun

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[20:20] <DWROB> kappa: er, true!

[20:20] <dalet> Hamlet seemed to be a darker character

[20:20] <DWROB> the ghost is the only supernatural presence

[20:20] <dalet> depressed, bipolar

[20:20] <lambda> Hamlet was more unsure of what to do

[20:20] <aleph> Hamlet does not come across as a hero

[20:20] <delta> bipolar with psychotic features

[20:20] <DWROB> S would have said "melancholic"

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[20:21] <DWROB> melancholic==depressed

[20:21] <chi> she didn't know it was poisoned

[20:21] <chi> they have different flaws

[20:21] <chi> H is not proud

[20:21] <chi> O wasn't in a tragedy

[20:21] <rho> O had hope

[20:21] <DWROB> delta: what, you think he's imagining the ghost?

[20:21] <delta> possibly

[20:21] <beta> O had a little more experience

[20:21] <chi> they didn't have psych terms back then

[20:21] <vav> O is not out for revenge

[20:21] <pi9> cant be three others saw it before him

[20:21] <DWROB> Yes, O is a father; Hamlet is a son

[20:21] <rho> yes the ghost is in his mind

[20:21] <dalet> he didn’t imagine the ghost because the guard saw it too

[20:21] <DWROB> maybe

[20:21] <kappa> Hamlet is just going around gloomy not making real plans, more flying by the seat of his pants

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[20:22] <chi> O had true love

[20:22] <delta> it seems to me to be that way

[20:22] <DWROB> good

[20:22] <dalet> O had a stronger woman

[20:22] <pi9> other people saw the ghost, and the ghost was right about Claudius

[20:22] <beta> did H not really love that girl?

[20:22] <DWROB> O is a man of action, for one thing, and Hamlet is the opposite of that -- a man of inaction

[20:22] <pi9> it was definitely not supposed to be a manifestation of his lunacy

[20:22] <rho> true

[20:22] <dalet> He loved her

[20:22] <DWROB> beta: hard to say

[20:22] <mu> a lot of people died who didn’t have to

[20:23] <DWROB> O's intelligence is expressed in action; H's intelligence inhibits action

[20:23] <chi> He was just being an ass

[20:23] <dalet> makes sense

[20:23] <beta> why would he have attacked l then?L

[20:23] <DWROB> the question suppose remains "why"

[20:23] <DWROB> Something else -- how much do we know about O's thoughts?

[20:23] <dalet> there is really no comparison for O and H

[20:23] <tau> i agree

[20:24] <dalet> different sides of the spectrum

[20:24] <pi9> i agree as well

[20:24] <beta> they are alike in some ways but much more dissimilar

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[20:24] <kappa> none really

[20:24] <chi> H likes to talk to himself

[20:24] <chi> not much

[20:24] <chi> we know all H's thoughts

[20:24] <pi9> different attitudes different goals different mental mindset

[20:24] <DWROB> yes, O and H are perfect extremes of some weird continuum

[20:24] <DWROB> Yes, we know all about H's thoughts -- and absolutely nothing of O's. What's going on with that?

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[20:25] <aleph> the style of writing is different, more open

[20:25] <lambda> different authors

[20:25] <chi> different ways to tell a story

[20:25] <pi9> the Odyssey was driven by the fantastic events, Hamlet was driven by what was going on inside his mind

[20:25] <rho> O is a narrative

[20:25] <DWROB> open??

[20:25] <dalet> it helps the tragedy

[20:25] <eta> Odysseus was too macho to express thought

[20:25] <kappa> different writing

[20:25] <DWROB> Narratives can show mental interiority

[20:25] <dalet> was not that necessary in an epic

[20:25] <rho> this one didn't

[20:25] <DWROB> eta: do macho men HAVE thoughts?

[20:25] <aleph> S allows the reader to understand the character

[20:25] <dalet> no

[20:25] <kappa> Shakespeare was limited because it was a play

[20:26] <vav> One track mind

[20:26] <vav> Only wanting to get back home

[20:26] <DWROB> did O have thoughts? consider for a minute

[20:26] <pi9> O's mentality was expressed through his actions

[20:26] <eta> I'm sure they do, but it doesn’t seem like it

[20:26] <pi9> he was mentally strong and intelligent

[20:26] <DWROB> pi9: yes

[20:26] <mu> a few

[20:26] <delta> yes

[20:26] <lambda> he has one; get home

[20:26] <delta> I agree thoughts expressed through actions

[20:26] <DWROB> 95% is action; we get very little of his thoughts, except his immediate plans for action sometimes

[20:26] <pi9> Hamlet just farted around so his thoughts were expressed through is internal monologues

[20:27] <dalet> all talk and no action

[20:27] <chi> O was a leader and as a leader you have to act fast, so he didn't have time to think

[20:27] <DWROB> We do get more of Telemachus's thoughts, for instance, but nothing like in Hamlet

[20:27] <rho> or thought and no action

[20:27] <pi9> its just a different type of story, it evokes different emotions in the audience

[20:27] <mu> all thought and few actions

[20:27] <DWROB> There has been a change in 2000 years -- the way the mind was depicted had changed

[20:27] <DWROB> what brought about this change?

[20:27] <kappa> Jesus

[20:28] <rho> renaissance

[20:28] <DWROB> Hmm -- why Jesus?

[20:28] <lambda> the renaissance

[20:28] <dalet> enlightenment

[20:28] <tau> development in science and Jesus

[20:28] <DWROB> the Enlightenment came later

[20:28] <chi> the age of enlightenment

[20:28] <rho> enlightenment is later

[20:28] <mu> teachings

[20:28] <delta> scientific information and religion

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[20:28] <DWROB> How do science and Jesus bear on the way the mind is depicted?

[20:28] <DWROB> I'm not arguing, but draw a picture for me

[20:29] <rho> what we know changes

[20:29] <pi9> entertainment went to a new level, people are more interested in people who live and act in a more realistic time, O doesn’t really appeal to the true side of any real person

[20:29] <kappa> Montaigne prolly helped some

[20:29] <delta> it changes your expressed thoughts

[20:29] <dalet> Jesus? I’m confused

[20:29] <rho> just like the world being flat

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[20:29] <lambda> one uses logic and science; the other uses faith

[20:29] <delta> educates more

[20:29] <rho> yes

[20:29] <dalet> Odyssey was more mythical

[20:29] <chi> it makes us think more

[20:29] <DWROB> kappa: Montaigne is surely in the mix, yes; Shakespeare read Montaigne

[20:30] <dalet> people can relate to hamlet

[20:30] <DWROB> And science is part of the same shift

[20:30] <pi9> i think the evolution of cultures and education had more to do with the change in entertainment, not Jesus' effect on the world

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[20:30] <dalet> in a humanist way

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[20:30] <DWROB> Christianity has an effect, too, by promoting the exercise of independent conscience – this is part of what leads to the Reformation, which is also happening in Montaigne's and S's time

[20:31] <vav> In O's time they were more focused on the Gods, In H's Time the thought was more to own human actions

[20:31] <chi> ah

[20:31] <dalet> people determine their fate

[20:31] <DWROB> But Montaigne is a direct model for "modern man" -- reflective, uncertain, skeptical, believing only what he knows/sees

[20:31] <pi9> he explores in his own mind

[20:31] <DWROB> vav: yes

[20:31] <delta> I agree he questioned everything

[20:32] <DWROB> pi9: yes, and what a disastrous trip that is!

[20:32] <delta> seemed like we got modernized then went back to Shakespearian days

[20:32] <pi9> but sometimes that’s what it takes to truly enlighten yourself

[20:32] <rho> every thing is in theory

[20:32] <DWROB> He explores his mind and becomes ever more confused -- very dissimilar to some of what Montaigne was saying

[20:32] <pi9> otherwise your just believing what everyone else has told you

[20:33] <DWROB> H believes nothing -- that is what sets him apart from Dante and Chaucer, too

[20:33] <chi> S's writings have so many hidden jokes and themes

[20:33] <delta> Montaigne was easier to id with

[20:33] <DWROB> they do, yes

[20:33] <kappa> That may lead to more craziness and more questioning his own thoughts and less action

[20:33] <theta> well, he believes in ghosts

[20:33] <DWROB> M is easier, simpler; S is applying M, among other things

[20:33] <theta> which says something about his beliefs about the afterlife

[20:33] <DWROB> applying him to life, to dramatic situations

[20:34] <pi9> H does have Christian beliefs, or else he would have killed Claudius when he was praying, but he was afraid that he would go to Heaven if he did that so he held off, trying to ensure he’d go to hell

[20:34] <DWROB> theta: right -- he just doesn't know, and doesn't pretend to know

[20:34] <dalet> good point

[20:34] <rho> so this is why he is a person of no action?

[20:34] <pi9> H might have not had deep faith in anything but some of his actions were based on beliefs

[20:35] <DWROB> So when I say "modern" I really mean "not medieval" -- uncertain, scientific-minded, skeptical, inward-turning

[20:35] <beta> right

[20:35] <dalet> ok understand

[20:35] <DWROB> I think H only has suspicions, but not beliefs

[20:35] <DWROB> Any other comparisons to be mentioned?

[20:35] <pi9> He also is interested in justice, he doesn’t just kill Claudius because the ghost told him too, he tries to justly prove his guilt with the play

[20:36] <chi> it is good to have ideas

[20:36] <DWROB> Yes, but we become suspicious (as does H) that this is just an excuse to not act

[20:36] <dalet> H believes in Hell and he also was uncertain of the ghost

[20:36] <eta> yeah.. he had to devise that plan to make sure he was guilty

[20:36] <DWROB> H doesn't believe in hell -- he fears the possibility, but he doesn't know the truth

[20:36] <rho> so for him seeing is believing

[20:36] <DWROB> yes

[20:37] <beta> that was more than absent minded -- and it req'd action

[20:37] <kappa> which is Montaigne again

[20:37] <delta> everything was based on fear but then he also didn't care to a certain extent

[20:37] <eta> he was depressed

[20:37] <DWROB> yes, he has a kind fatalism that shows itself in the end

[20:38] <eta> didn’t care what happened ... he lost it all to his uncle

[20:38] <DWROB> Now, let me ask this: What is on H's mind during this play?

[20:38] <theta> revenge

[20:38] <DWROB> really?

[20:38] <lambda> many things

[20:38] <mu> wondering why?

[20:38] <dalet> finding the truth

[20:38] <delta> finding himself

[20:38] <dalet> his lustful mother

[20:38] <beta> truth searching

[20:38] <kappa> searching for reason

[20:38] <tau3> different things,,,mom, father, uncle, etc.

[20:38] <mu> y they did it?

[20:38] <eta> revenge ... for his father

[20:38] <theta> well, he WAS after Claudius up until the end

[20:38] <beta> meaning

[20:39] <DWROB> He does spend a lot of time thinking about his mother and uncle

[20:39] <DWROB> ewwwwwwww!

[20:39] <beta> yuck

[20:39] <delta> nasty

[20:39] <mu> ha

[20:39] <chi> he is no longer sure of anything, should he trust his mom, should he kill C, does he love Oph

[20:39] <beta> that was the custom back then though

[20:39] <DWROB> and don't forget the weird bedroom scene between Hamlet and Gertrude

[20:39] <beta> and that is why O had his bro killed in the first place

[20:39] <DWROB> the rasslin' scene, when the ghost reappears

[20:39] <dalet> at least they were not blood related

[20:40] <delta> rasslin'? okay

[20:40] <DWROB> he get pretty physical with dear old mom there

[20:40] <DWROB> and tells her to stop doing the deed with Claudius

[20:40] <dalet> she thought he was going to kill her

[20:40] <DWROB> A friendly mother/son chat

[20:40] <dalet> ha ha

[20:41] <DWROB> What else is on his mind?

[20:41] <vav> Ophelia

[20:41] <vav> mentally

[20:41] <kappa> killing Claudius

[20:41] <chi> mothers sometimes get too close to their sons

[20:41] <delta> anger

[20:41] <kappa> Ophelia

[20:41] <chi> Ophelia, should he love her

[20:41] <DWROB> I don't think he thinks very much about poor Ophelia -- that's what dooms her

[20:41] <eta> yes.. the woman

[20:41] <chi> in the beginning he does

[20:42] <vav> getting his Uncle to admit some form of guiltiness

[20:42] <mu> he couldn’t trust her

[20:42] <kappa> making sure of what he believes happened to his father

[20:42] <dalet> for a man not to think of a woman he was severely depressed

[20:42] <DWROB> We never see him thinking about Ophelia, not once.

[20:42] <DWROB> correct me if I'm wrong.

[20:42] <DWROB> He talks to her (harshly, lewdly) but no thinking otherwise

[20:42] <aleph> doesn't he tell her to run to a nunnery

[20:43] <mu> he has other "important" things on his mind

[20:43] <DWROB> right, but when he's alone, he forgets her completely

[20:43] <dalet> maybe he was more in love with his best friend

[20:43] <chi> well, they do have the scene together talking about their relationship

[20:43] <DWROB> Horatio? Well, maybe

[20:43] <dalet> yes, Horatio

[20:43] <delta> he was hateful

[20:43] <vav> What about fighting with her brother at the grave sight?

[20:43] <kappa> he has a full array of thoughts to keep up with

[20:44] <DWROB> yes -- though that scene with Ophelia (the nunnery scene) can be interpreted other ways, too

[20:44] <dalet> disrespectful

[20:44] <DWROB> OK, what is the number one thing on his mind other than Mommers?

[20:44] <kappa> keeping up this crazy act

[20:44] <DWROB> mnnnmnn ... no

[20:44] <dalet> nunnery , interpreted how

[20:45] <delta> ghost

[20:45] <chi> he realizes he loved her when she was gone

[20:45] <chi> is his mom in on the murder of his father

[20:45] <mu> messing around

[20:45] <rho> vengeance of his fathers murder

[20:45] <tau3> his uncle

[20:45] <lambda> finding out how/can he get revenge

[20:45] <dalet> vengeance

[20:45] <DWROB> no no no and again no

[20:45] <theta> Ophelia

[20:45] <dalet> death

[20:45] <DWROB> look at this ...

[20:45] <DWROB>

[20:45] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:45] <DWROB> O, that this too too solid flesh would melt

[20:45] <DWROB> Thaw and resolve itself into a dew!

[20:45] <DWROB> Or that the Everlasting had not fix'd

[20:45] <DWROB> His canon 'gainst self-slaughter! O God! God!

[20:45] <DWROB> How weary, stale, flat and unprofitable,

[20:45] <DWROB> Seem to me all the uses of this world!

[20:45] <DWROB> Fie on't! ah fie! 'tis an unweeded garden,

[20:45] <DWROB> That grows to seed; things rank and gross in nature

[20:45] <DWROB> Possess it merely. That it should come to this!

[20:45] <DWROB> But two months dead: nay, not so much, not two:

[20:45] <DWROB> So excellent a king; that was, to this,

[20:45] <DWROB> Hyperion to a satyr;

[20:45] <DWROB>

[20:46] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:46] <DWROB> from very first soliloquy -- what is he thinking about FIRST?

[20:46] <kappa> death and suicide?

[20:46] <DWROB> right!

[20:46] <dalet> he misses his father.

[20:46] <eta> man ... so he didn’t care if he died or not

[20:46] <beta> i get that he misses his father, but suicide?

[20:46] <rho> so he is wanting out?

[20:46] <delta> his death

[20:46] <DWROB> yes; he is unhinged by melancholia, that's at least part of what's going on

[20:47] <beta> oh ok

[20:47] <DWROB> O, that this too too solid flesh would melt

[20:47] <DWROB> <DWROB> Thaw and resolve itself into a dew! == I wish I could die

[20:47] <chi> suicide

[20:47] <rho> the easy way

[20:47] <dalet> he thought of suicide but would never have done it

[20:47] <delta> good interpretation

[20:47] <beta> gotcha

[20:47] <dalet> might be in limbo or something

[20:47] <rho> man of no action

[20:48] <eta> man ... then why didn’t he just say it?!? Shakespeare made it too complicated

[20:48] <kappa> could not come out and commit suicide without taking others with him, namely Claudius

[20:48] <beta> evidently- he obviously didn't do it

[20:48] <DWROB> The ghost tells him to avenge him, and Hamlets asks how could he forget? But the ghost knows better and tells him "Remember me!"

[20:48] <pi9> " to be or not to be, that is the question"

[20:48] <chi> that's why it’s good

[20:48] <DWROB> And then Hamlet doesn't. He forgets. He delays.

[20:48] <dalet> scared?

[20:49] <DWROB> Maybe. He certainly has other things on his mind. The ghost also warns him not to worry about his mother.

[20:49] <mu> conscience?

[20:49] <DWROB> The ghost knows his mind pretty well.

[20:49] <pi9> but he does worry about his mother

[20:49] <pi9> and because of that he gets fired up and kills Polonius

[20:49] <DWROB> And in speech after speech, H asks himself, "why haven't I acted?"

[20:49] <mu> he doesn’t follow any of the ghosts instructions

[20:49] <beta> that’s like the advice whats his name got from his father when he went to the underworld

[20:50] <chi> the ghost says his mom will punish herself enough

[20:50] <delta> he wanted to die throughout the whole play just didn't do it till the end

[20:50] <DWROB> If he thinks, he can't act, and he is nearly always thinking. He kills P in what looks like a fit of madness, or at least an impulsive action

[20:50] <pi9> that first time when he was going to kill Claudius is he actually worried about him being saved at that moment, or does he just wuss out

[20:50] <mu> her punishment is her conscience

[20:50] <chi> it is hard to act when your depressed

[20:50] <DWROB> yes

[20:50] <DWROB> all correct.

[20:50] <kappa> He thought he might be killing Claudius when he took Polonius out

[20:50] <dalet> mother was a freak

[20:51] <beta> well at least he acts

[20:51] <DWROB> here is the most famous soliloquy ... you know what's coming ... .

[20:51] <DWROB>

[20:51] Last message repeated 3 time(s).

[20:51] <DWROB> Ham. To be, or not to be- that is the question:

[20:51] <DWROB> Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer

[20:51] <DWROB> The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune

[20:51] <DWROB> Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,

[20:51] <DWROB> And by opposing end them. To die- to sleep-

[20:51] <pi9> but it was still an act when he was passionately involved in the conflict with his mother

[20:51] <DWROB> No more; and by a sleep to say we end

[20:51] <DWROB> The heartache, and the thousand natural shocks

[20:51] <DWROB> That flesh is heir to. 'Tis a consummation

[20:51] <DWROB> Devoutly to be wish'd. To die- to sleep.

[20:51] <DWROB> To sleep- perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub!

[20:51] <DWROB> For in that sleep of death what dreams may come

[20:51] <DWROB> When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,

[20:51] <DWROB> Must give us pause. There's the respect

[20:51] <DWROB> That makes calamity of so long life.

[20:51] <DWROB> For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,

[20:51] <DWROB> Th' oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,

[20:51] <DWROB> The pangs of despis'd love, the law's delay,

[20:51] <DWROB> The insolence of office, and the spurns

[20:51] <DWROB> That patient merit of th' unworthy takes,

[20:51] <DWROB> When he himself might his quietus make

[20:51] <DWROB> With a bare bodkin? Who would these fardels bear,

[20:52] <DWROB> To grunt and sweat under a weary life,

[20:52] <DWROB> But that the dread of something after death-

[20:52] <DWROB> The undiscover'd country, from whose bourn

[20:52] <DWROB> No traveller returns- puzzles the will,

[20:52] <DWROB> And makes us rather bear those ills we have

[20:52] <DWROB> Than fly to others that we know not of?

[20:52] <DWROB> Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,

[20:52] <DWROB> And thus the native hue of resolution

[20:52] <DWROB> Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,

[20:52] <DWROB> And enterprises of great pith and moment

[20:52] <DWROB> With this regard their currents turn awry

[20:52] <DWROB> And lose the name of action.

[20:52] <DWROB>

[20:52] Last message repeated 1 time(s).

[20:52] <DWROB> This is brilliant, wonderful writing. What has it got to do with anything?

[20:53] <delta> preparing audience for his death

[20:53] <DWROB> Oh, they are prepared! They know it's a tragedy.

[20:53] <dalet> the questions of death

[20:53] <DWROB> death death death

[20:53] <dalet> the uncertainty of death

[20:53] <kappa> show his thoughts of death

[20:53] <DWROB> He says, ...

[20:53] <chi> he states his problem, his conscience makes him a coward

[20:53] <chi> and he is scared to die

[20:54] <DWROB> To be, or not to be- that is the question:

[20:54] <beta> who's death?

[20:54] <rho> what is his existence is the question?

[20:54] <DWROB> IS that the question?

[20:54] <he> hams

[20:54] <eta> yes

[20:54] <kappa> yes

[20:54] <DWROB> indeed!

[20:54] <mu> i agree

[20:54] <theta> i agree

[20:54] <DWROB> indeed!

[20:54] <dalet> the conscience makes u wonder if death is the right thing

[20:54] <delta> he gets to the point that he has convinced himself and is not so depressed anymore that he has the gumption to finally do it

[20:54] <DWROB> It's the only thing H can think about.

[20:54] <theta> is it better to live or to be dead?

[20:55] <DWROB> And he does give a good self-diagnosis here of why he cant act

[20:55] <DWROB> But it may all be bogus

[20:55] <kappa> he is obsessed with this thinking

[20:55] <DWROB> You should trust nothing this clever guy says

[20:55] <chi> right

[20:55] <delta> yep

[20:55] <DWROB> You can make an equally good case for sexual obsession with his mother, as mentioned

[20:55] <DWROB> Or for outright madness

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[20:56] <dalet> ?

[20:56] <DWROB> Hamlet is a perfect modern -- He has no certainties, he is smart, but he cannot escape doubt

[20:56] <mu> thinks too much

[20:56] <beta> that makes sense

[20:56] <chi> so you cant trust his thoughts?

[20:56] <DWROB> He is compelled to look into himself, but the knowledge he comes back with is always unclear

[20:56] <rho> he out smarts himself

[20:56] <dalet> his thoughts are driving him mad

[20:56] <DWROB> no, you can't trust them -- even HE doesn't trust his thoughts

[20:57] <delta> right

[20:57] <chi> wow

[20:57] <DWROB> Welcome to the modern world.

[20:57] <chi> it must suck not to trust your own thought

[20:57] <DWROB> (not counting Bulloch county, of course)

[20:57] <dalet> oh, yeah

[20:57] <pi9> ill enjoy my stay

[20:57] <pi9> haha

[20:57] <mu> i agree

[20:57] <rho> funny

[20:58] <DWROB> We ... Are ... Done!!!

[20:58] <dalet> no

[20:58] <eta> this place is too big for me

[20:58] <delta> yes

[20:58] <rho> we have electricity

[20:58] <theta> haha

[20:58] <DWROB> Bulloch County??

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[20:58] <beta> dr. rob?

[20:58] <theta> so ... exam opens Friday?

[20:58] <DWROB> yes

[20:58] <eta> sarcasm ... though i would like to live in a smaller town though

[20:58] <dalet> and ends when

[20:58] <chi> Nite

[20:58] <lambda> when are quizzes due by

[20:58] <pi9> DWROB: what all do we need to complete before the end of the semester?

[20:58] <delta> when can we find out when they close

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[20:59] <DWROB> eta: are there such things? I have heard only rumors

[20:59] <dalet> towns don’t get any smaller

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[20:59] <beta> can you make an analogy between Aeneas meeting with his father in the underworld w/ H's ghost experience w/. his father?

[20:59] <rho> when do you think the last day of exams may be?

[20:59] <eta> ever been to collins ga?? Statesboro is a metropolis compered to that place

[20:59] <DWROB> beta: sure, especially by way of contrast

[20:59] <beta> thanks

[20:59] <eta> well I'm out.. thank you for everything

[21:00] <DWROB> eta: OK, I've been warned

[21:00] <dalet> in that case, i don’t want to go to collins

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[21:00] <beta> yes there are smaller towns - take brooklet for example

[21:00] <DWROB> pi9: the survey, the evaluation, the last exam

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[21:00] <pi9> ok just makin sure

[21:00] <lambda> i have like 5 quizzes that are still waiting to be regraded

[21:00] <DWROB> beta: I think of Brooklet as a posh suburb

[21:00] <pi9> the survey we access from your homepage?

[21:00] <delta> How can we find out when the exam closes???

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[21:01] <DWROB> lambda: fire off an e-mail to Mr. Rutherford

[21:01] <pi9> we have like a week to take it

[21:01] <dalet> where is Brooklet?

[21:01] <dalet> Brooklyn?

[21:01] <lambda> what is the email address

[21:01] <beta> still smaller though -what about all those small towns on hwy 80 going to sav?

[21:01] <DWROB> Brooklyn -- haha

[21:01] <DWROB> that makes S-boro Manhattan then

[21:01] <DWROB> about the surveys ...

[21:01] <beta> lol

[21:01] <pi9> anyways, do we access the survey from your homepage?

[21:01] <dalet> OH MY GOD

[21:01] <dalet> when are surveys due?

[21:01] <DWROB> you should have a message from me in your GSU mail about them

[21:02] <pi9> aiight

[21:02] <DWROB> and yes you can use the Knowledge survey link ion my page

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[21:02] <delta> this was a cool web class thanks

[21:02] <pi9> later everybody, and Dr. Rob this has been a pretty cool class

[21:02] <lambda> where is the evaluation at

[21:02] <DWROB> Surveys must be done by Friday noon of Finals week -- I will post this

[21:02] <DWROB> evals are on WebCT, unfortunately

[21:02] <DWROB> do you know WebCT?

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[21:03] <dalet> yes.

[21:03] <pi9> no and mine isn’t working

[21:03] <lambda> yeah; are they the things by Robby ambler

[21:03] <DWROB> If you have trouble getting on to WebCT, call WebCT tech support, not me!

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[21:03] <dalet> Have a pleasant summer, everyone. It's been real!

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[21:03] <DWROB> Make Robby earn his salary

[21:03] <rho> enjoyed the class; thought provoking

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[21:03] <DWROB> Thanks

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