Chat 1: Sumer
<DWROB> Time to begin.
<DWROB> Good evening
<DWROB> Nope
<alpha> We haven't even started yet
<beta> lol
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<DWROB> We still have quite a few people missing.
<delta> come on everybody
<epsilon> ya
<DWROB> but we can't wait indefinitely
<delta> o-kay
<zeta> How many are we missing?
<eta> ok ok
<DWROB> The are some rules for chatting here, and here they are
<DWROB> no..?
<DWROB> hmmm
<DWROB> wait a minute ...
<iota> 1 million
<DWROB> ! rules
<DWROB> ! define rules
<DWROB> rats
<DWROB> can remember the command.
<DWROB> Anyway --
<DWROB> stay on topic ...
<theta> is it /
<DWROB> no AOL-type abbreviations and such ...
<DWROB> no needless greetings and goodbyes (they clutter the channel)
<DWROB> and be polite to each other
<DWROB> all clear?
<kappa> yes
<lambda> yes
<mu> yea
<nu> yes
<theta> yea
<gamma> yes
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<beta> yes
<delta> yes
<DWROB> epsilon: off topic
<omicron> yes sir
<pi> yes
<rho> yes
<DWROB> OK
<alpha> all clear
<sigma> yes
<tau> yes
<eta> yes sir
<zeta> yes
<phi> yes
<iota> yes sir
<DWROB> Now, the first thing I want to do is talk about announcement
<chi> yes
<DWROB> s
<DWROB> You need to look at my homepage and make use of it -- there are loads of links relevant to the class
<DWROB> For the Sumerian stuff, for example ...
<DWROB> there are some images of clay cuneiform tablets, etc.
<psi> yes
<DWROB> And a Sumerian myth FAQ
<DWROB> Check it out.
<DWROB> There is also a drawing of Enki
<xi> ok
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<DWROB> You can tell it's Enki because ...
<epsilon> yes
<DWROB> well, what kind of god is Enki?
<delta> powerful
<beta> a sick one
<beta> in more than one way
<tau> isn't he the creator?
<DWROB> ???
<nu> a god of fertility?
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<epsilon> very disturbing
<DWROB> more specific?
<zeta> water?
<psi> sexual exploit
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<gamma> fertility god
<omicron> he had a sexual problem
<DWROB> sick? he's a god, so he sets the standard, I'm afraid
<chi> he was considered all-wise
<eta> pretty high in rank
<DWROB> Good -- a creator
<rho> the father
<delta> I'm sticking with powerful
<DWROB> water also
<DWROB> good
<DWROB> in the drawing, water is flowing all over the place
<DWROB> overflowing.
<mu> yes very powerful
<kappa> Had a different view than I consider a God to have
<iota> stubborn
<DWROB> Why would water be important to Sumerians?
<zeta> He was the god of water
<theta> because they used the Tigris/Euphrates?
<nu> because they depend on it to grow crops
<delta> because they have the perfect land
<gamma> water is the source of life
<nu> and to live
<tau> its the source of food (crops)
<kappa> Helped provide for their life
<DWROB> his is very powerful, boot more clever than powerful
<epsilon> for a pure life
<omicron> the Sumerians needed water to survive and they also wanted sweet water
<psi> water is the bases for life
<iota> for water and crops
<chi> harvests and crops
<lambda> water is how they survived
<DWROB> Where was Sumer?
<zeta> source of life?
<mu> water is the most essential part of life
<nu> the middle east
<tau> over in the middle east
<kappa> Middle East
<eta> middle east isn't it?
<rho> Iraq
<DWROB> yes ...
<DWROB> Right
<mu> around Iran
<delta> somewhere between heaven and earth
<gamma> middle east
<omicron> middle east
<DWROB> where is it, though?
<beta> somewhere it said the current Iran
<psi> middle east
<nu> in a desert?
<phi> desert
<DWROB> Iraq, to be exact
<xi> Fertile Crescent
<epsilon> middle east
<chi> In a desert or tundra environment
<iota> Africa
<rho> Babylon
<mu> that's a very dry place
<DWROB> Babylonia too
<DWROB> it's a desert
<sigma> middle east
<DWROB> right -- watered by rivers, and Enki is the god presiding over all that, giving life
<omicron> if it is a desert then it makes water even more important
<kappa> So water would really be essential in the desert
<lambda> the water is scarce there so would it be more difficult to find
<iota> near Assyria
<DWROB> We'll come back to gods i a moment ...
<DWROB> I want to get clear about the meaning of myth. What makes these stories myths?
<psi> it would show his powers with control of water
<theta> man wrote them
<rho> wasn't this close to the Garden of Eden?
<nu> they are fictitious
<omicron> they aren't proven
<delta> it seems a little unbelievable
<tau> there not true
<alpha> they could never happen
<kappa> aren't proven
<gamma> they cant be proven
<phi> so he is a pretty generous god
<beta> they are interpretations
<DWROB> What makes these stories myths?
<psi> they cannot be proven
<nu> they are about gods
<phi> not enough facts to prove it
<pi> they're far out stories that have some historical base
<mu> there's no proof behind them
<lambda> they are used to pass on legends of cultures
<eta> the fact that they are proven to be not true
<theta> the fact that man wrote them and people held them to be true for generations
<tau> there is not proof of them
<gamma> no physical hard evidence
<psi> they are based on legends
<alpha> They could never happen
<sigma> provide meaning to why things happened or how they did
<phi> about gods
<DWROB> lots of stories are that
<rho> little written history
<chi> they couldn't possible be true
<DWROB> What kind of story is a myth?
<DWROB> What is a myth for?
<delta> bits and pieces have been put together from clay tablets
<DWROB> proof doesn't matter
<pi> they explain things that man couldn't explain in that day
<psi> to explain something
<iota> not knowing for sure if they are true or not
<theta> to explain something
<gamma> to spread legends or stories
<nu> explaining something
<kappa> legend that is passed down
<DWROB> meaning -- good -- they are explanations
<pi> they didn't know so they blamed it on the gods
<DWROB> how things got to be as they are
<rho> to explain a natural occurrence
<epsilon> to give some meaning to life
<epsilon> to justify the unknown
<omicron> maybe it was the only explanation at the time
<eta> has many supernatural things going on
<pi> they are fictional history
<alpha> to tell a story
<alpha> explain why something is
<DWROB> how the world works, where it came from, where the nation came from, etc.
<mu> ancient explanations of the uncertain
<alpha> maybe
<DWROB> So as myths, what are these stories explaining?
<phi> give people a reason to wanna stick around
<theta> the creation
<nu> where the rivers came from
<rho> the birth of humans
<psi> things like creation and power
<tau> how things came to be
<omicron> how mankind was created
<delta> the beginning
<gamma> creation of life and man and it's imperfection
<epsilon> how life came about
<lambda> they are explaining why things happen, in this case the beginning
<kappa> reasoning why essential things are the way they are
<phi> creation story
<tau> maybe our purpose
<iota> explaining creation of man
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<tau> why we are here
<DWROB> good -- the creation of the human race
<eta> creations of many things. the creations of gods who look over certain things and aspect of life
<zeta> creation
<chi> Customs and traditions of the people
<DWROB> creation
<DWROB> good
<mu> explaining life and the essential needs of life
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<theta> creation of plants as well ... and feelings
<DWROB> That much is clear.
<DWROB> A lot isn't clear, though.
<DWROB> These are fragmentary texts
<DWROB> they were dug up out of the desert in varying degrees of preservation
<aleph> i agree
<tau> it makes it more interesting
<delta> i agree as well
<chi> they also explain what those people felt were important in everyday life though the creation of different gods
<beta> on the FAQ page it says there are parallels of Sumerian Myth to Genesis in the Bible
<rho> these were some of the first writings
<DWROB> We know nothing about Sumer except what these stories tell us.
<psi> it makes less sense
<DWROB> Did you notice any particularly odd or puzzling aspects to the stories?
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<nu> besides the incest
<tau> incest
<theta> the creator was being punished
<psi> incest
<mu> incest and lots of it
<alpha> why was it so repetitious?
<tau> how the woman gave birth in 9 days
<beta> yeah, they were only pregnant for 9 days instead of nine months
<rho> the gods were male and female
<aleph> yes i tried yes i had a hard time finding the moral in the story
<gamma> but how can someone accurately fill in the story if it is a myth anyway
<omicron> there was always somebody competing for power
<DWROB> there are many parallels -- some stories in the bible are clearly drawing on these or similar stories as sources.
<delta> the way things were done
<theta> i agree
<iota> incest
<tau> how the woman "took up" the sperm in her body
<kappa> how they lived
<xi> How everything was formed
<xi> oh ok
<sigma> the connection of names with body organs
<aleph> it is all rather hedonistic
<DWROB> Yes, the incest is strange, and disturbing
<rho> Abraham was from the area
<mu> very much so
<zeta> Can you please tell me what a SUKKAL is ... I could not find it in the dictionary.
<iota> that's how they did it back then i guess
<theta> Exactly how accurate were these translations?
<bet> like heaven
<DWROB> power struggles -- good
<chi> The gods had humanistic flaws
<epsilon> incest
<DWROB> tau: Well, I suppose it's anatomically correct enough, but what's really weird about all that?
<delta> what was the time period?
<DWROB> yes -- all polytheistic gods do
<DWROB> Roman, Greek, are the same
<aleph> it just seems strange that a woman would bear more children to help the man she appeared to hate
<tau> the way the author phrased in ... like she physically can control the sperm
<DWROB> 4000 years ago.
<iota> way BC
<psi> BC
<xi> oh ok
<eta> two rivals giving birth
<DWROB> This is the oldest extant literature I could find for you.
<theta> they knew exactly how women got pregnant ... to a science
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<tau> really? that's cool
<DWROB> 2000 BC
<omega> but really the gods were man made up things to represent things in there life that man lacked or wanted
<nu> even older than Beowulf
<nu> ?
<rho> it was the first writings known
<DWROB> The role of sex is unfamiliar, anyway ... what else is strange?
<aleph> that is amazing considering it took Europeans forever to figure the process out
<alpha> yeah, i didn't understand why she did try to help him
<DWROB> Yes, certainly
<bet> why were the women allowing this to go on?
<rho> how do we know the translations are correct
<beta> she felt guilty
<DWROB> Beowulf is 3000 years newer
<DWROB> No comparison
<aleph> because it gave them power
<mu> how the names were symbolized body parts
<nu> dang
<omega> most of the stories seem more to a fact of fantasy than real myth
<iota> punishment of Enki through plants and harming his organs
<DWROB> Um ... they liked it?
<tau> its strange how the 9 plants were grown from semen
<delta> I didn't understand the plant thing
<sigma> they were doormats
<bet> really?!
<kappa> It was odd punishment
<psi> me either
<chi> The stories only feature a few gods most of the others a only mentioned, but they don't play a large role
<aleph> me either
<DWROB> back to strangeness -- what other strange things crop up?
<omicron> i didn't understand how the goddess could punish Enki if he was more powerful
<tau> the plants
<gamma> it was an example of a power struggle between man and woman
<upsilon6> how did the plants relate?
<rho> the plants made him sick
<xi> me neither
<DWROB> yes
<psi> with the god being so powerful
<DWROB> They are rivals.
<DWROB> What sort of goddess is Ninhursag?
<psi> how could he be punished
<mu> how can a plant make a god sick
<theta> a motherly goddess
<DWROB> goddess of what?
<iota> handicapped people
<omega> the incest
<epsilon> the plants in reference to the children
<rho> the mother
<zeta> him consulting another to take another woman.
<tau> fertility??
<aleph> the plants wee a reflection of mother natures power .. the ultimate woman
<bet> mother earth?
<psi> i say fertility
<phi> why couldn't they walk in the marshland
<gamma> fertility
<delta> how did they create 8 deities for the painful organs
<beta> his great-granddaughter was the only one that questioned him in a sexual manner
<DWROB> It's not at all clear -- you are right.
<DWROB> a mother, yes ...
<DWROB> If Enki is god of water, Ninhursag is goddess of ... ?
<DWROB> RIGHT
<rho> of the gods
<kappa> why 8
<iota> also powerful
<tau> food?
<psi> land
<chi> the role of humans was to do the work for the gods, which implies that they are very close to humans themselves
<mu> land
<theta> agriculture
<delta> land
<DWROB> earth
<DWROB> so there is a rivalry, but also a mutual need.
<eta> crops, land
<pi> shes the goddess of earth
<mu> k
<zeta> earth
<epsilon> earth
<psi> which would so a power struggle
<DWROB> delta: go figure -- it is unknown
<DWROB> exactly
<DWROB> these are the gods of an agricultural society
<lambda> the two could not function with the other one
<phi> life
<lambda> right?
<alpha> I found it odd that Dilmun was a holy, pure land, yet the gods were rivals with each other
<omega> what does it mean the semen was poured into her, how?
<upsilon6> land
<DWROB> water plus dirt equals crops
<tau> by his penis
<rho> and water
<DWROB> Basically there is a god for every natural phenomenon
<iota> earth
<gamma> they competed against each other and yet needed each other
<DWROB> and for every human attribute.
<psi> you would think they could not function with one another
<bet> myth
<mu> uncertainty
<omega> simple though
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<DWROB> What is the attitude of the gods toward humanity?
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<upsilon6> now I understand Dr. Rob
<delta> slave like
<rho> mistakes
<mu> servants
<psi> minimal
<tau> see them as servants
<psi> inferior
<theta> slaves
<kappa> servants
<gamma> wanted personal servants
<tau> to do the god's chores
<mu> weak and inferior
<lambda> slaves
<DWROB> What is the attitude of the gods toward humanity?
<omicron> they wanted humans to do all the work so i guess they were like slaves
<aleph> yes the women definitely had more power
<beta> they wanted to be lazy
<upsilon6> slaves
<zeta> slavery
<phi> servants
<DWROB> right
<chi> but not all the gods were mentioned
<chi> they see them as servants
<eta> they looked over ... they were inferior, but made much use of what they provided
<iota> slaves
<DWROB> not loving or any such thing
<upsilon6> humankind can do their dirty work
<xi> servants
<rho> little care
<aleph> aha
<kappa> cripples compared to gods
<epsilon> if the humans help them out the gods will help them out
<DWROB> indifference -- the gods have there own affairs to attend to
<zeta> they did not want to do their own work
<DWROB> But how do people have to act toward the gods?
<bet> with respect
<rho> worship
<tau> respect
<pi> with reverence and fear
<kappa> praise them and worship them
<nu> they give them gifts and help them
<chi> they were received by humans
<iota> crips do all the work
<delta> reverence
<omicron> they had no choice but to praise them
<phi> kinda pushed them aside
<sigma> negative
<iota> work
<DWROB> perhaps
<gamma> a sense of honor
<alpha> respectful
<theta> they did the gods' bidding
<sigma> pleasant
<iota> they do as their told
<zeta> money
<theta> and made sacrifices
<phi> bow to them
<tau> the gods were their creators- u worship them
<chi> they have to worship and respect them
<epsilon> respectfully
<alpha> reverent
<eta> they had to respect what they provided for them
<DWROB> how do human beings prosper with all these fighting, obnoxious gods to deal with?
<psi> worship
<psi> respect
<DWROB> right
<psi> they are afraid of them
<psi> they also steal there women
<bet> they get crops out of it
<aleph> aha they rule through fear
<upsilon6> respectful
<lambda> they need them to survive
<DWROB> to many of them
<nu> they appease all of them
<theta> they don't see the gods' fighting, they carry on their life as if nothing was going on "up there"
<delta> they do what they have to do to survive
<omicron> the gods give them just enough to keep living
<tau> exactly; human survival
<eta> if they do not respect a certain god, they may not receive such things like rain or food
<DWROB> including rivals -- a tricky business
<chi> the stories didn't give any real examples of how the humans felt
<DWROB> There really isn't much hierarchy -- just competing factions
<DWROB> it's all politics
<phi> they depend on the gods to survive
<bet> to much watering
<omega> the gods were at times petty in there actions towards man
<xi> respectfulness
<rho> even then
<DWROB> you see the same thing in Greece and Roman mythology
<nu> cater to the important ones
<zeta> solving problems?
<upsilon6> yeah, they don't really know what is going on with the gods
<rho> Egypt
<eta> yes!
<DWROB> Right, but they have to honor ALL of them, which is hard, because they are so contradictory
<sigma> spooky
<alpha> how come they don't have a hierarchy?
<eta> Zeus's wife was very jealous of his exploits right?
<aleph> yeah
<kappa> all mythology has a lot of similarities
<omega> the people were in a sense kind of lazy if you think about it
<xi> sure do
<epsilon> the gods give them what they need to survive
<epsilon> yes
<pi> how do you honor Ninhursag without pissing off Enki?
<psi> that is tough
<DWROB> a little god can cause you a lot of trouble as a human!
<rho> catch 22
<upsilon6> true
<delta> I agree
<mu> correct
<tau> yep
<omega> i don't think you can
<nu> i guess they just went about it like the Greeks
<gamma> they had no choice
<epsilon> obviously
<DWROB> This has some bearing on the role of sexuality here.
<mu> so how do humans please every god
<DWROB> How is this story different from something out of the Judaeo-Christian tradition?
<nu> you win some you loose some
<zeta> why was it that Enki made cripple people instead of people that were well and strong?
<chi> especially if a god falls in love with you
<psi> that seems impossible
<tau> we only have one god
<theta> Christians view incest as a sin
<pi> there is only one God that rules all
<psi> to please everyone
<bet> it involves nature
<xi> yea
<DWROB> How is this story different from something out of the Judaeo-Christian tradition?
<nu> we have one God
<rho> one god to many gods
<gamma> there is only one GOD
<omicron> one god controls everything
<delta> their morals appear different
<bet> it is polytheistic
<kappa> one God
<chi> there are several gods
<eta> there are multiple gods
<lambda> polytheistic
<epsilon> sexual exploitation would not be used
<tau> we were created by one god
<xi> polytheism
<phi> no incest in Christianity
<kappa> as opposed to multiple
<epsilon> or incest
<pi> One God to please, and love does the trick
<theta> Christianity is also monotheistic
<beta> a lot of the things in this story are considered sins ...
<mu> only one god
<iota> only one god not many
<DWROB> pi: yes, which both simplifies and complicates matters
<DWROB> Why are they different?
<psi> like there are many
<eta> christian and Judaism's god is there to serve the people as well
<alpha> only one God in Judaeo-Christian, where as here there are many
<omega> it depends on what culture you come from to believe in one god though
<psi> they are over different things
<DWROB> OK, how would you have worshiped a love goddess?
<chi> their gods have problems
<theta> by having lots of sex
<delta> because they conflict with values and beliefs
<tau> my making love?
<psi> with love i guess
<nu> by loving
<iota> b/c the Sumerians use incest and polytheism
<psi> my having children
<pi> even when we feel we've pleased are God we've still sinned against him so its hard ever to be on his good side
<mu> with love
<eta> produce children maybe?
<epsilon> poly vs monotheism
<bet> respecting love and sex
<phi> showing her love
<mu> ?
<kappa> Their polytheism beliefs have problems
<beta> because there is only one God, therefore no one to compete with him to be jealous of
<omicron> by trying to love everybody
<gamma> by having sex
<upsilon6> candy
<rho> more writings in Jud-Christ
<kappa> Gods were fighting
<eta> being kind?
<zeta> it speaks of lesser gods in the bible ... but there is one ultimate being running it all
<upsilon6> it makes you think of valentines day
<chi> give her stuff
<delta> showing respect and affection
<DWROB> well, yes -- temple prostitution, rituals involving sex. You see that still even in the Bible -- the neighbors of the Hebrews were polytheists exactly like the Sumerians
<epsilon> being in love
<psi> sex
<xi> having many children and women
<aleph> a form of power
<beta> it is a commandment to worship no other idols (or other gods)
<delta> you are right DWROB because their was a lot of sins in the bible
<DWROB> being in love probably won't cut it ...
<omega> they were at times human in fault themselves
<rho> The Jud-Christ era has survived
<DWROB> How does this differ from Judaeo-Christianity, then?
<DWROB> Where did the celebration of sex go, and why?
<delta> maybe no difference
<xi> having lots of sex
<rho> the belief left the people
<gamma> there was no physical act of sex
<epsilon> incest
<DWROB> theirs a difference, I think
<phi> making babies
<iota> polytheism
<eta> you must love only one person in Christianity
<tau> i guess when you break it down ... you are still worshiping something
<psi> celebration of sex
<theta> well, the neighbors of the Hebrews or whatever they're considered also weren't worshiped
<pi> sins and pleasures are defined differently by different gods
<nu> an organized church
<beta> sex is supposed to be only for marriage
<upsilon6> sex is not allowed to be a celebration anymore
<omicron> maybe the people were made to believe against it by another god
<DWROB> You weren't shocked by this stuff?
<delta> maybe the way they did things their process
<theta> in Judaeo-Christianity, the god says NOT to have sex like they do
<beta> yes
<lambda> There is no "Celebration of Sex" in Christianity
<chi> you have to please your gods in these myths, in Christianity you don't have to worry about offending another god
<xi> it went into being b/t two married ppl ... because sex is powerful
<kappa> yes it was shocking
<epsilon> ya!
<aleph> some of it was
<phi> not really
<omega> but who is to say that Christianity is the one right religion though
<bet> It was a little more extreme
<tau> yes
<DWROB> different gods, different sins -- exactly
<zeta> no
<zeta> sex is natural
<omicron> it was more than shocking to me
<gamma> yes
<DWROB> and with one god, a hierarchy has to be imposed
<mu> a lot of gods
<beta> sometimes graphic and vulgar
<theta> and the Judaeo-Christian god didn't impregnate people HIMSELF
<rho> Sumer did not survive
<iota> of course
<bet> one law to follow
<eta> but it was typical back then. many ancient leaders would impregnate their own daughters
<delta> that is some of what goes on in life maybe not creating umuls though
<tau> keep the blood line pure
<DWROB> sexuality loses out, becomes something that has to be controlled.
<DWROB> The Sumerians would have thought this a very odd notion
<DWROB> rho: let's see where we are in 4000 years!
<upsilon6> true
<rho> you think
<delta> once again I agree
<lambda> its all perspective; we think what they did was strange
<kappa> yeah
<tau> right
<beta> very
<DWROB> questions so far?
<pi> are ways are already faltering, if any one truly believes them anymore anyway
<DWROB> I bring all this up ...
<epsilon> yep
<mu> in that era it might of been accepted
<aleph> but they would think what we do is strange
<sigma> incest does not keep the blood lines pure
<omicron> it is hard to say because people back then though nothing like we do today
<DWROB> because it figures in Gilgamesh next week
<aleph> they thought so
<DWROB> and in the biblical readings.
<chi> sex was probably as important as water to the Sumerians
<eta> ohhh
<DWROB> Remember, the old testament is a story of the rivalry of polytheism and monotheism
<omega> to keep that blood line kings and queens of old day did it
<DWROB> Told by one side only
<pi> DWROB - what figures?
<DWROB> Here we are getting the other side
<upsilon6> ok
<theta> do you keep logs of this chat, or should we do that on our own?
<iota> no sir
<gamma> that makes sense
<rho> Jud-Christ has adapted over time
<delta> so how are we to know what to believe
<phi> alright cumulative readings
<psi> that makes sense
<kappa> its nice to here the other side I suppose
<bet> more informative less biased
<zeta> eye for and eye!!!!
<DWROB> It crops up -- the same ideas
<DWROB> As you will see
<chi> i never thought of it like that
<DWROB> Also, stories familiar from the bible show up in Gilgamesh, but with a different meaning completely
<kappa> You always hear there are two sides to every story now you here it
<tau> i bet they are more similar then we think
<DWROB> but that's for next week.
<pi> does Gilgamesh persuasively oppose monotheism
<theta> well, that's what's weird about these whole things ... the story of Noah's arc crops up in many different places as well, just under different names and various means
<chi> like the sole survivor of the flood
<DWROB> Let's look at some passages and discuss them now
<DWROB> hold on a minute ...
<omega> like the Kama sutra
<psi> ok
<xi> oh ok
<DWROB> Gilgamesh comes before monotheism -- this is older
<zeta> this may give us all a better understanding
<DWROB> much older
<DWROB> The people who wrote the bible were drawing in part on these myths and tales as sources.
<pi> when did Judaism begin?
<DWROB> Look at this and see if it looks familiar ...
<DWROB> Holy the city ... . The land Dilmun is holy.
<DWROB> Sumer is holy ... . The land Dilmun is holy.
<DWROB> The land Dilmun is holy, the land Dilmun is pure,
<DWROB> the land Dilmun is pure, the land Dilmun is bright.
<DWROB> After she lay in Dilmun with the one who is alone,
<DWROB> the place -- after Enki had slept with his wife --
<DWROB> that place is pure, that place is bright.
<omega> what is the origin of Gilgamesh
<DWROB> After she lay in Dilmun with the one who is alone,
<DWROB> the place-after Enki had slept with Ninsikila --
<DWROB> that place is pure, that place is bright.
<nu> yeah this story bears a striking resemblance to genesis
<theta> it represents heaven
<kappa> How is it pure and bright?
<DWROB> Very formulaic, repetitive, but what does it describe?
<psi> seems like heaven
<bet> creation
<mu> heaven
<nu> Eden
<eta> exactly.. didn't notice that
<DWROB> circa 1200 BC
<delta> the beginning again
<tau> eve?
<psi> the origin
<gamma> any perfect place
<pi> Eden
<phi> garden of Eden
<tau> oops, i mean the garden of Eden?
<DWROB> not heaven ...
<DWROB> an earthly paradise
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<omega> or nirvana
<iota> the beauty of the natural land
<rho> before heaven and earth were separated
<upsilon6> heaven
<bet> Eden
<mu> Eden
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<omicron> it describes a place with no flaws just like heaven
<alpha> How holy the place is
<DWROB> like Eden
<DWROB> right
<chi> the holy land
<kappa> Eden
<DWROB> now this ...
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 5 time(s).
<DWROB> Utu, standing in heaven ... .
<DWROB> from the mouth that pours out the earth's water
Channel flood from DWROB -- kicking
<DWROB> he brought her sweet water from the earth.
DWROB kicked from #2111web by Socrates: flood
<epsilon> Eden, the place is always holy
<pi> did dr robinson get kicked off?
<xi> Jerusalem
<zeta> it sound like in the beginning of the bible
<nu> yeah
<eta> oh no!
<tau> a creation
<psi> hey class is over
<omega> yeah
<DWROB_> Holy crap -- I got kicked by my own robot!
<phi> hahahaa
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<DWROB> What's happening?
<upsilon6> I think so
<epsilon> i font know what do we do
<mu> lol
<theta> haha
<delta> hahaha
<pi> yeah he told us
<psi> we can go watch lost now
<DWROB_> Some fine tuning left to do ...
<nu> robots are the devil
<pi> haha
<DWROB_> Anyway, what's happening in the passage?
<psi> what passage
<beta> so we aren't the only ones with technical difficulties ...
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<tau> giving the land water
<omega> lol
<bet> the sun was created and earth and water
<psi> i think you need to re enter the passage
<DWROB_> which means life, essentially, or the prerequisite for life.
<DWROB_> And where is the water coming from?
<pi> Enki
<rho> the water is given life to the earth
<tau> Enki
<gamma> Enki
<iota> speaking of the lands beauty
<kappa> gods
<theta> the mouth
<omicron> Enki the god of water
<delta> Enki
<nu> the heavens
<alpha> creating the water
<bet> the sky
<qof> Enki
<chi> god is bestowing a gift
<mu> Enki
<DWROB_> Exactly
<alpha> Yep
<nu> where the gods are
<rho> the rivers
<epsilon> the heavens
<kappa> Enki in particular
<sigma> Enki
<phi> heaven
<omega> God?
<upsilon6> the gods
<zeta> the separation of land and water
<DWROB_> Now here's the next phase of this creation story ...
<alpha> mouth
<eta> raining ... providing the desert with water for the first time? giving life??
<DWROB> Enki, the cunning one, in front of Nintu, mother of the land,
<eta> oh oops ... that was late
<DWROB> has his phallus fill the ditches full with semen,
<DWROB> has his phallus glut the reeds with an overflow of sperm,
<DWROB> has his phallus tear away the noble cloth that covers the lap.
<DWROB> He spoke out: "No one walks in the marshland."
<psi> he is giving
<DWROB> Enki said: "No one walks in the marshland."
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<DWROB> He swore by the life of An.
<phi> so they have water, why not have sex
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<DWROB> What's this all about?
<bet> creation of man
<pi> Enki watering the land
<alpha> "don't eat the fruit off the tree"
<gamma> creation of man
<eta> yes
<DWROB> it is symbolic sex, sorry
<tau> he wants to have sex with Nintu
<omicron> maybe they are saying he is making too much love
<kappa> creation
<alpha> the forbidden
<eta> the fruit..
<DWROB> what's happening?
<rho> no fruit
<DWROB_> Creation of what?
<phi> font eat the apples on the tree
<psi> creation of men
<theta> he's warning the humans not to do something
<delta> eating the forbidden fruit
<bet> sin
<eta> knowledge
<theta> sin
<mu> life
<tau> yes, sin
<sigma> fertilizing the land
<kappa> man
<DWROB_> right , of life generally
<rho> evil
<psi> sex
<pi> Enki is filling the land with water he is creating the earth
<chi> he is fertilizing the land
<omega> then wheres the serpent?
<iota> creation of life
<beta> yea, the tree of knowledge
<phi> sin
<DWROB_> there is a continuity -- connected by Enki -- sea, water, semen, all the same
<epsilon> creation of man or of sins
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<pi> the later is harder to clean up
<rho> liquid
<zeta> Creation of plants
<omega> both
<DWROB_> This kind of symbolism would be repressed in later traditions, but here there is a different attitude about it -- it's godly, connected with life
<chi> the world
<rho> ok
<eta> ahhhh so when he filled the rivers with semen, was that what we see as water?
<psi> life
<tau> semen?
<pi> this was before we made sex and everything to do with it evil
<eta> something that provides life..
<alpha> I'm confused
<psi> she fertilized the world
<eta> maybe not
<tau> ah, ok
<psi> oops he
<tau> good point pi
<DWROB_> Polytheistic religions regard sex as a fact equal with other facts; it's not something quite as threatening to the social order.
<mu> so his semen is essential to life?
<pi> The writer uses Enki's semen metaphorically as the water of life that fills the earth
<DWROB_> Right.
<zeta> semen does give life
<DWROB_> The bible uses the same water imagery but doesn't usually go this far.
<psi> semen is life
<delta> so it is seen as procreation more than immoral
<kappa> semen leads to life
<tau> yes it does
<DWROB_> OK ...
<omicron> semen gives life and water maintains
<beta> but why use semen as an analogy to water?
<pi> i might have before the Catholics edited it
<rho> less imagery
<tau> both give life
<psi> there is life in water
<omicron> they both have to do with life
<omega> that it does so why is it sin to have sex
<gamma> so we are back to two interpretations
<DWROB_> Because semen is like living water, giving rise to new life literally
<alpha> just like water was life to the people
<epsilon> because if gives life
<DWROB_> That's how it was viewed.
<mu> ok
<bet> something good
<beta> I'll buy that ...
<kappa> They were viewed as equals?
<zeta> ok
<DWROB_> You see a lot of this in Egyptian mythology too -- very wacky stuff I won't go into !
<omega> water can kill too
<delta> without water you couldn't survive w/o semen you wouldn't be here
<psi> please font
<rho> yes
<psi> the easier the better
<DWROB_> Let's look at the other myth for a moment
<DWROB_> I didn't get to it with the class last night
<phi> but god uses water to kill off everything in the bible with Noah
<omega> thank you
<DWROB_> What do you make of this "umul" story?
<eta> the water god has always been the one people wanted to please
<delta> that was mean
<tau> i thought it was very interesting ... a good explanation
<rho> cleaning house
<gamma> it shows mankind's imperfection
<DWROB_> seems pretty mean!
<pi> the writer used it to explain handicapped people and also to prove that Enki was better then Ninhursag
<nu> basically like Adam and eve
<DWROB_> OK, so what is the explanatory function of the myth?
<omega> see it does kill
<zeta> strange
<DWROB_> yes
<omicron> it showed that Enki was more powerful
<psi> shows imperfection
<iota> sad, b/c of all the cripples people doing hard work
<zeta> why make a man like that
<DWROB_> it does show his power
<tau> to explain how cripples came
<delta> showing how powerful Enki was
<rho> wiped away sin
<bet> unfair
<tau> and shows his power
<gamma> everyone has a society created role
<epsilon> it was really terrible what he did to umul, was it just for bread?
<psi> shows power
<kappa> shows Enki as powerful and thoughtful
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<DWROB_> gamma: good
<theta> it represented unconditional love
<zeta> to gain more power over Nin.
<DWROB_> that too, true enough
<gamma> thank you
<mu> power
<phi> everyone has a purpose
<DWROB_> yes
<omega> a cleansing
<chi> I didn't understand the jobs he gave to her disabled humans
<chi> to show that there is still a use for people with problems
<DWROB_> But to some extent, that seems like window dressing ...
<bet> it was their given duty
<DWROB_> The story's core is about the rivalry of the two gods
<epsilon> shows his powerfulness
<DWROB_> and that's hard to attach a religious meaning to
<tau> right ... seemed almost sexist
<rho> and the humans get in the way
<sigma> there is something that everyone can do to fulfill life
<eta> he wanted to strike fear
<omicron> it said they were drunk so maybe they got carried away
<delta> he seemed to be inferior yet at the end he was humbling himself
<zeta> still, why make a man that serves little purpose.
<pi> his ability to bless them and give them purpose and Ninhursag's inability to do so proved that he was a more powerful god with purposes for all of his subjects
<beta> it shows that even with imperfections there is still a role for the humans to play
<alpha> in the end, he got what he wanted
<phi> so she is tossing all her crap at him and he is making use of it
<DWROB_> What you often see (in the Bible too) is a folktale, just a story, basically, that gets rewritten to serve a specific purpose.
<kappa> humans can still have a role even with their imperfections
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<omega> too much play
<bet> like a fable
<DWROB_> So here is looks like the story of how Enki beat up on Ninmah ...
<upsilon> I can't pinpoint the religious meaning
<DWROB_> but an ethical veneer has been added.
<beta> to teach a lesson, like a parable?
<rho> it stared some where
<epsilon> ya
<omicron> it basically told Ninmah that Enki was better than her
<tau> yep
<DWROB_> It's being used that way, but you can still see the old story underneath, originally just an entertainment
<delta> yea i think so
<omicron> and put here in her place
<zeta> people
<rho> yes
<bet> a lesson is taught
<mu> she was "inferior" to him
<tau> yes, for entertainment
<zeta> yes
<psi> entertainment
<DWROB_> The ethical conclusion may have been clearer but the end is missing
<chi> everyone loves a good fight
<omicron> why is it missing?
<DWROB_> Let's look at the last excerpt.
<eta> well, doesn't it serve a purpose? like a fable?
<gamma> there has always been a power struggle
<rho> so there are many endings
<DWROB_> I see if I get kicked again ...
<chi> because it's old
<epsilon> ya the is frustrating
<psi> power struggles will always exist
<omega> or was it taken out?
<zeta> But why were they fighting
<tau> especially between men and women
<DWROB> Once, then, there was no snake,
<DWROB> there was no
<DWROB> scorpion,
<DWROB> there was no hyena,
<pi> they were fighting for power
<DWROB> there was no lion,
<DWROB> there was no
<DWROB> wild dog,
<DWROB> no wolf,
<DWROB> there was no fear,
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<sigma> and scares me
<DWROB> no terror:
<eta> all gods are jealous ... . even our current gods
<DWROB> human had
<DWROB> no rival.
<DWROB> Once, then,
<DWROB> the lands Shubur-Hamazi,
<DWROB> polyglot Sumer,
<DWROB> that land great with
<omicron> it is saying the world used to be perfect but now it isn't
<DWROB> the me of overlordship,
<DWROB> Uri,
<DWROB> the land with everything just
<DWROB> so,
<DWROB> the land Martu,
<DWROB> resting securely,
<DWROB> we've got another Eden-type myth, right?
<DWROB> stay on topic
<nu> yep
<mu> yes
<psi> yes
<kappa> yes
<tau> yes
<DWROB> Now watch this ...
<Anon2331> yes
<rho> peace on earth
<beta> yeah
<mu> pure
<bet> peaceful
<delta> yes
<psi> maybe it is not a perfect world
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<DWROB> the whole world --
<mu> no fighting
<DWROB> the people as one --
<zeta> the land was peaceful ... but not really.
<DWROB> to Enlil in one tongue gave voice.
<DWROB> Then did the contender -- the en
<DWROB> the contender -- the master
<epsilon> ya
<DWROB> the contender -- the king
<chi> yes
<DWROB> Enki, the contender -- the en
<DWROB> the contender -- the master
<upsilon> yes, it is another Eden myth
<DWROB> the contender -- the king
<DWROB> the contender -- the en
<alpha> yeah
<DWROB> the contender -- the master
<DWROB> the contender -- the king
<DWROB> Enki, en of hegal,
<DWROB> the one with the unfailing words,
<psi> all powerful has its weakness
<DWROB> en of cunning,
<DWROB> the shrewd one of the land,
<DWROB> sage of the gods,
<DWROB> gifted in thinking,
<DWROB> the en of Eridu,
<kappa> there is always a contender
<DWROB> change the speech of their mouths,
<psi> without fear, it cannot be perfect
<DWROB> he having set up contention in it,
<rho> an hierarchy
<DWROB> in the human speech that had been one.
<DWROB>
Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<DWROB> Remind you of anything?
<tau> explains the different languages
<DWROB> used to be
<DWROB> And what happens!
<psi> Star Trek
<upsilon> he is not as powerful as he seems
<bet> one god Christianity
<tau> the tower that reaches heaven in the bible
<beta> can you say "self-involved"?
<DWROB> What does Enki do?
<rho> they are split up
<omicron> it is leaning more toward one god
<bet> like babble
<psi> one god would take over
<zeta> they needed Babylon
<kappa> contend with everyone
<theta> what is en/
<omicron> he is proclaiming himself the al-mighty
<mu> one god would take control
<iota> takes advantage
<DWROB> Yes, it's a myth explaining the origin of languages.
<DWROB> sound familiar?
<DWROB> come on folks!
<DWROB> babel, but yes
<delta> I hear monotheism
<bet> the tower of babble
<zeta> BABYLON
<beta> me too
<tau> the bible has one involving a tower reaching heaven
<epsilon> conversion to monotheism
<pi> not Babylon Babel
<DWROB> The Tower of Babel in Genesis.
<theta> YEAH, THE TOWER OF BABYLON
<upsilon> he gives up
<DWROB> The languages are split so as to weaken and confuse mankind
<zeta> confusion
<phi> babel
<DWROB> Babylon
<mu> ok
<eta> taking complete control.
<gamma> with confusion comes division
<chi> he isn't the perfect god he is made out to be
<DWROB> Yes, the stories are the same, but different in important ways.
<mu> different languages'
<omega> why do this
<delta> is it possible the stories we read from different religions were derived from these clay tablets
<sigma> that makes sense
<Anon2331> babbling, Babylon; come from the same word
<rho> I think some details get lost in translation
<gamma> and the separation of man
<epsilon> the many languages will only divide people more
<mu> different cultures
<omega> ohh
<DWROB> Anybody remember why the tower provokes the Hebrew god?
<nu> there differences are probably no more than cultural differences
<theta> I THINK THAT THEY DERIVED THESE STORIES FROM THE UNIVERSAL TRUTH
<theta> sorry about the caps
<DWROB> It's more than probable
<zeta> What ways
<psi> many ways
<bet> because they were trying to reach the heavens
<nu> because it was worshiped
<DWROB> (as you will see in Gilgamesh)
<rho> true
<pi> because they were trying to be as great as him
<zeta> they was going to build it to the gods
<eta> because he is a jealous god. he wants control
<DWROB> OK I HERE YOU!
<DWROB> hear
<DWROB> yes
<beta> no the heaven, the perfect place, like the garden of Eden
<kappa> So these "myths" are more like a universal truth
<zeta> or to reach the heavens
<DWROB> and why is that bad?
<kappa> just told different points of view
<tau> is it?
<DWROB> yes, yes
<DWROB> Why is it happening in the Sumerian version, though?
<bet> it is saying they are almost as good as god
<phi> they praise the tower more than the god
<DWROB> kappa: that is not my claim
<tau> in revenge to Enki?
<psi> or better then god
<bet> disrespect
<theta> because the people wanted to be their own god
<eta> because he did not want people who were inferior to become his equal
<chi> because to be like god is to be god
<theta> they wanted to contend with Enki
<iota> they were polytheistic
<nu> they were building a stair way to heaven
<omicron> the gods always wanted something bigger
<delta> because they began this
<epsilon> because they are only greedy
<DWROB> This story occurs in a longer tale about a war; it is just a minor episode in a contest between two groups of god and people
<DWROB> It doesn't really have a lesson attached to it
<beta> he did not want anymore competition
<zeta> it is being told by another person
<DWROB> in the bible they were
<bet> have more fear and reverence
<kappa> ok
<DWROB> OK, are there questions?????
<psi> when can we take the evaluation
<DWROB> There must be questions
<psi> survey
<zeta> so this is a contradiction to the BIBLE
<psi> and when is the first quiz due
<omicron> when is the first quiz
<DWROB> OK, good, the survey.
<delta> I didn't find survey
<omega> about the class or this chat?
<bet> ?
<DWROB> The survey is not ready yet. I hope to open it tomorrow around noon
<DWROB> I will send out instructions.
<zeta> Or just the other side of the story
<alpha> Nope
<alpha> I'm just trying to take it all in
<bet> good
<sigma> does everyone have to comment on everything you say?
<psi> when is the first quiz due?
<zeta> What survey
<DWROB> First quiz I will open tomorrow and it's due Tuesday, I believe
<omega> on the homepage
<zeta> thanks
<psi> ok
<bet> always on Tues.?
<DWROB> of course you get to retake it if you meet the initial deadline
<delta> okay that's fine
<chi> When is our 1st quiz due?
<pi> and it's about Gilgamesh?
<psi> is class over like can we go to the bar now?
<DWROB> mentioned in the syllabus
<mu> k
<phi> i need to brush up on my historical vocabulary
<DWROB> you'll get a message tomorrow
<rho> what is your office number and hours?
<DWROB> You have to be checking the forum and checking your GSU email every day
<kappa> alright
<delta> okay
<gamma> ok
<mu> k
<theta> sounds good
<Anon2331> ok
<DWROB> psi: that's above my pay grade to decide, but we are done, yes
<phi> excellent
<DWROB> I will post office hours on the forum
<DWROB> they are virtual -- in a chat room
<iota> can we go since everyone is asking the same questions over and over
<theta> dr rob, are you logging this chat or should we do that on our own?
<kappa> alright
<xi> ok
<DWROB> I don't keep physical office hours for on-line classes
<theta> I'd like to keep it for notes
<bet> bye
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<zeta> is there more to this story?
<omega> Question?
<omega> will the grades be posted bu email as well as on the homepage?
<delta> how can we keep these notes
<DWROB> though sometimes I can be caught in my office
<DWROB> don't count on it!
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<chi> So we will never be able to meet with you face to face?
<upsilon> I thought the quizzes were due by 5pm the day of the chat ... .in this case Wednesday
<DWROB> By the way ...
<DWROB> This chat is logged and you can view the transcript
<theta> awesome
<DWROB> very useful for studying
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<delta> I agree
<DWROB> upsilon: OK, whatever I put in the syllabus
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<DWROB> chi: I keep a few hours on campus and will post them, but that's mainly for another class
<zeta> It is interesting now that someone has explained it a little better.
<upsilon> I thought the quizzes were due by 5pm the day of the chat ... .in this case Wednesday
<xi> that's great
<xi> great
<DWROB> I am less exciting to look at than you may suppose
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<DWROB> zeta: that's good to hear
<theta> yeah, interesting class. Talk to you next week!
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<tau> goodbye Dr
<DWROB> this is very old, very foreign
<DWROB> roll with it!
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<delta> see ya dr. rob
<DWROB> Good night!
<omega> do we still need to come by and see you physically in the newton building?
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<omicron> see ya next week
<zeta> is this all or is there more.
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<omega> out
<upsilon> dr. rob I thought the quizzes were due by 5pm the day of the chat ... .in this case Wednesday
<eta> ok ... so far what assignments do we have? in case i am missing something
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<alpha> We can retake the quizzes you said?
<alpha> Bye!
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<eta> the quiz tomorrow, the knowledge survey, which said i couldn't view and anything else?
<beta> are the quizzes timed?
<upsilon> I thought the quizzes were due by 5pm the day of the chat ... .in this case Wednesday
<xi> Goodnight
<pi> later d - rob
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<DWROB> quizzes are open
<DWROB> but there is the deadline
<upsilon> ok, thanks
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<DWROB> open = untimed
<eta> for future reference, are the written essays timed?
<DWROB> !
<upsilon> thanks dr. rob
<DWROB> There are no written essays
<zeta> and does it have to be spelled correctly?
<eta> oh
<DWROB> you mean the exams?
<eta> hmm i thought i read that somewhere
<eta> that's what i meant
<eta> yes sir the written exams
<zeta> good
<DWROB> does what
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<eta> are the written exams timed?
<DWROB> They need to be completed withing like 48 hours; I guess that's times
<DWROB> timed
<DWROB> It's all open book, so to speak
<eta> well that's very fair
<beta> i agree
<rho> I need to get you to sign a form from the resource center for the learning disable
<DWROB> This sometimes inspires people to commit plagiarism or cheat otherwise ...
<DWROB> Which is a very, very bad idea
<alpha> and we can retake the quizzes?
<alpha> how many times?
<eta> yeah.. the reason i was asking this is that i too have forms to be signed
<DWROB> OK, e-mail me and we will set up an appointment
<eta> but if everything is untimed, i may not have a problem
<DWROB> about three, generally
<rho> thank you
upsilon (~upsilon@vl045-136.vl045.GeorgiaSouthern.edu) left irc: Quit
<DWROB> three times
<DWROB> then I lock them
<DWROB> enough being enough
<DWROB> right