Chat: ENGL 2111 (World Literature I) Winter 2005

Chat 1: Sumer

Chat 1: Sumer

[00:00] --- Wed Jan 12 2005

[20:00] <DWROB> Time to begin.

[20:00] <DWROB> Good evening

[20:00] <DWROB> Nope

[20:00] <alpha> We haven't even started yet

[20:00] <beta> lol

[20:00] gamma ( joined #2111web.

[20:00] <DWROB> We still have quite a few people missing.

[20:01] <delta> come on everybody

[20:01] <epsilon> ya

[20:01] <DWROB> but we can't wait indefinitely

[20:01] <delta> o-kay

[20:01] <zeta> How many are we missing?

[20:01] <eta> ok ok

[20:01] <DWROB> The are some rules for chatting here, and here they are

[20:01] <DWROB> no..?

[20:01] <DWROB> hmmm

[20:01] <DWROB> wait a minute ...

[20:02] <iota> 1 million

[20:02] <DWROB> ! rules

[20:02] <DWROB> ! define rules

[20:02] <DWROB> rats

[20:02] <DWROB> can remember the command.

[20:02] <DWROB> Anyway --

[20:02] <DWROB> stay on topic ...

[20:02] <theta> is it /

[20:02] <DWROB> no AOL-type abbreviations and such ...

[20:02] <DWROB> no needless greetings and goodbyes (they clutter the channel)

[20:02] <DWROB> and be polite to each other

[20:02] <DWROB> all clear?

[20:03] <kappa> yes

[20:03] <lambda> yes

[20:03] <mu> yea

[20:03] <nu> yes

[20:03] <theta> yea

[20:03] <gamma> yes

[20:03] xi ( joined #2111web.

[20:03] <beta> yes

[20:03] <delta> yes

[20:03] <DWROB> epsilon: off topic

[20:03] <omicron> yes sir

[20:03] <pi> yes

[20:03] <rho> yes

[20:03] <DWROB> OK

[20:03] <alpha> all clear

[20:03] <sigma> yes

[20:03] <tau> yes

[20:03] <eta> yes sir

[20:03] <zeta> yes

[20:03] <phi> yes

[20:03] <iota> yes sir

[20:03] <DWROB> Now, the first thing I want to do is talk about announcement

[20:03] <chi> yes

[20:03] <DWROB> s

[20:04] <DWROB> You need to look at my homepage and make use of it -- there are loads of links relevant to the class

[20:04] <DWROB> For the Sumerian stuff, for example ...

[20:04] <DWROB> there are some images of clay cuneiform tablets, etc.

[20:04] <psi> yes

[20:04] <DWROB> And a Sumerian myth FAQ

[20:04] <DWROB> Check it out.

[20:04] <DWROB> There is also a drawing of Enki

[20:04] <xi> ok

[20:04] mu (~mu@ left irc: Quit

[20:05] <DWROB> You can tell it's Enki because ...

[20:05] <epsilon> yes

[20:05] <DWROB> well, what kind of god is Enki?

[20:05] <delta> powerful

[20:05] <beta> a sick one

[20:05] <beta> in more than one way

[20:05] <tau> isn't he the creator?

[20:05] <DWROB> ???

[20:05] <nu> a god of fertility?

[20:05] upsilon ( left irc: Quit

[20:05] <epsilon> very disturbing

[20:05] <DWROB> more specific?

[20:05] <zeta> water?

[20:05] <psi> sexual exploit

[20:06] mu (~mu@ joined #2111web.

[20:06] <gamma> fertility god

[20:06] <omicron> he had a sexual problem

[20:06] <DWROB> sick? he's a god, so he sets the standard, I'm afraid

[20:06] <chi> he was considered all-wise

[20:06] <eta> pretty high in rank

[20:06] <DWROB> Good -- a creator

[20:06] <rho> the father

[20:06] <delta> I'm sticking with powerful

[20:06] <DWROB> water also

[20:06] <DWROB> good

[20:06] <DWROB> in the drawing, water is flowing all over the place

[20:06] <DWROB> overflowing.

[20:06] <mu> yes very powerful

[20:06] <kappa> Had a different view than I consider a God to have

[20:06] <iota> stubborn

[20:06] <DWROB> Why would water be important to Sumerians?

[20:06] <zeta> He was the god of water

[20:06] <theta> because they used the Tigris/Euphrates?

[20:06] <nu> because they depend on it to grow crops

[20:06] <delta> because they have the perfect land

[20:06] <gamma> water is the source of life

[20:06] <nu> and to live

[20:06] <tau> its the source of food (crops)

[20:06] <kappa> Helped provide for their life

[20:06] <DWROB> his is very powerful, boot more clever than powerful

[20:07] <epsilon> for a pure life

[20:07] <omicron> the Sumerians needed water to survive and they also wanted sweet water

[20:07] <psi> water is the bases for life

[20:07] <iota> for water and crops

[20:07] <chi> harvests and crops

[20:07] <lambda> water is how they survived

[20:07] <DWROB> Where was Sumer?

[20:07] <zeta> source of life?

[20:07] <mu> water is the most essential part of life

[20:07] <nu> the middle east

[20:07] <tau> over in the middle east

[20:07] <kappa> Middle East

[20:07] <eta> middle east isn't it?

[20:07] <rho> Iraq

[20:07] <DWROB> yes ...

[20:07] <DWROB> Right

[20:07] <mu> around Iran

[20:07] <delta> somewhere between heaven and earth

[20:07] <gamma> middle east

[20:07] <omicron> middle east

[20:07] <DWROB> where is it, though?

[20:07] <beta> somewhere it said the current Iran

[20:07] <psi> middle east

[20:07] <nu> in a desert?

[20:07] <phi> desert

[20:07] <DWROB> Iraq, to be exact

[20:07] <xi> Fertile Crescent

[20:07] <epsilon> middle east

[20:07] <chi> In a desert or tundra environment

[20:07] <iota> Africa

[20:08] <rho> Babylon

[20:08] <mu> that's a very dry place

[20:08] <DWROB> Babylonia too

[20:08] <DWROB> it's a desert

[20:08] <sigma> middle east

[20:08] <DWROB> right -- watered by rivers, and Enki is the god presiding over all that, giving life

[20:08] <omicron> if it is a desert then it makes water even more important

[20:08] <kappa> So water would really be essential in the desert

[20:08] <lambda> the water is scarce there so would it be more difficult to find

[20:08] <iota> near Assyria

[20:08] <DWROB> We'll come back to gods i a moment ...

[20:09] <DWROB> I want to get clear about the meaning of myth. What makes these stories myths?

[20:09] <psi> it would show his powers with control of water

[20:09] <theta> man wrote them

[20:09] <rho> wasn't this close to the Garden of Eden?

[20:09] <nu> they are fictitious

[20:09] <omicron> they aren't proven

[20:09] <delta> it seems a little unbelievable

[20:09] <tau> there not true

[20:09] <alpha> they could never happen

[20:09] <kappa> aren't proven

[20:09] <gamma> they cant be proven

[20:09] <phi> so he is a pretty generous god

[20:09] <beta> they are interpretations

[20:09] <DWROB> What makes these stories myths?

[20:09] <psi> they cannot be proven

[20:09] <nu> they are about gods

[20:09] <phi> not enough facts to prove it

[20:09] <pi> they're far out stories that have some historical base

[20:09] <mu> there's no proof behind them

[20:09] <lambda> they are used to pass on legends of cultures

[20:09] <eta> the fact that they are proven to be not true

[20:09] <theta> the fact that man wrote them and people held them to be true for generations

[20:09] <tau> there is not proof of them

[20:09] <gamma> no physical hard evidence

[20:09] <psi> they are based on legends

[20:09] <alpha> They could never happen

[20:09] <sigma> provide meaning to why things happened or how they did

[20:09] <phi> about gods

[20:09] <DWROB> lots of stories are that

[20:09] <rho> little written history

[20:10] <chi> they couldn't possible be true

[20:10] <DWROB> What kind of story is a myth?

[20:10] <DWROB> What is a myth for?

[20:10] <delta> bits and pieces have been put together from clay tablets

[20:10] <DWROB> proof doesn't matter

[20:10] <pi> they explain things that man couldn't explain in that day

[20:10] <psi> to explain something

[20:10] <iota> not knowing for sure if they are true or not

[20:10] <theta> to explain something

[20:10] <gamma> to spread legends or stories

[20:10] <nu> explaining something

[20:10] <kappa> legend that is passed down

[20:10] <DWROB> meaning -- good -- they are explanations

[20:10] <pi> they didn't know so they blamed it on the gods

[20:10] <DWROB> how things got to be as they are

[20:10] <rho> to explain a natural occurrence

[20:10] <epsilon> to give some meaning to life

[20:10] <epsilon> to justify the unknown

[20:10] <omicron> maybe it was the only explanation at the time

[20:10] <eta> has many supernatural things going on

[20:10] <pi> they are fictional history

[20:10] <alpha> to tell a story

[20:10] <alpha> explain why something is

[20:10] <DWROB> how the world works, where it came from, where the nation came from, etc.

[20:10] <mu> ancient explanations of the uncertain

[20:11] <alpha> maybe

[20:11] <DWROB> So as myths, what are these stories explaining?

[20:11] <phi> give people a reason to wanna stick around

[20:11] <theta> the creation

[20:11] <nu> where the rivers came from

[20:11] <rho> the birth of humans

[20:11] <psi> things like creation and power

[20:11] <tau> how things came to be

[20:11] <omicron> how mankind was created

[20:11] <delta> the beginning

[20:11] <gamma> creation of life and man and it's imperfection

[20:11] <epsilon> how life came about

[20:11] <lambda> they are explaining why things happen, in this case the beginning

[20:11] <kappa> reasoning why essential things are the way they are

[20:11] <phi> creation story

[20:11] <tau> maybe our purpose

[20:11] <iota> explaining creation of man

[20:11] omega ( joined #2111web.

[20:11] <tau> why we are here

[20:11] <DWROB> good -- the creation of the human race

[20:11] <eta> creations of many things. the creations of gods who look over certain things and aspect of life

[20:11] <zeta> creation

[20:11] <chi> Customs and traditions of the people

[20:11] <DWROB> creation

[20:11] <DWROB> good

[20:12] <mu> explaining life and the essential needs of life

[20:12] aleph ( joined #2111web.

[20:12] <theta> creation of plants as well ... and feelings

[20:12] <DWROB> That much is clear.

[20:12] <DWROB> A lot isn't clear, though.

[20:12] <DWROB> These are fragmentary texts

[20:12] <DWROB> they were dug up out of the desert in varying degrees of preservation

[20:12] <aleph> i agree

[20:12] <tau> it makes it more interesting

[20:12] <delta> i agree as well

[20:12] <chi> they also explain what those people felt were important in everyday life though the creation of different gods

[20:12] <beta> on the FAQ page it says there are parallels of Sumerian Myth to Genesis in the Bible

[20:12] <rho> these were some of the first writings

[20:12] <DWROB> We know nothing about Sumer except what these stories tell us.

[20:12] <psi> it makes less sense

[20:13] <DWROB> Did you notice any particularly odd or puzzling aspects to the stories?

[20:13] bet (~bet@ joined #2111web.

[20:13] <nu> besides the incest

[20:13] <tau> incest

[20:13] <theta> the creator was being punished

[20:13] <psi> incest

[20:13] <mu> incest and lots of it

[20:13] <alpha> why was it so repetitious?

[20:13] <tau> how the woman gave birth in 9 days

[20:13] <beta> yeah, they were only pregnant for 9 days instead of nine months

[20:13] <rho> the gods were male and female

[20:13] <aleph> yes i tried yes i had a hard time finding the moral in the story

[20:13] <gamma> but how can someone accurately fill in the story if it is a myth anyway

[20:13] <omicron> there was always somebody competing for power

[20:13] <DWROB> there are many parallels -- some stories in the bible are clearly drawing on these or similar stories as sources.

[20:13] <delta> the way things were done

[20:13] <theta> i agree

[20:13] <iota> incest

[20:13] <tau> how the woman "took up" the sperm in her body

[20:13] <kappa> how they lived

[20:13] <xi> How everything was formed

[20:13] <xi> oh ok

[20:13] <sigma> the connection of names with body organs

[20:13] <aleph> it is all rather hedonistic

[20:13] <DWROB> Yes, the incest is strange, and disturbing

[20:14] <rho> Abraham was from the area

[20:14] <mu> very much so

[20:14] <zeta> Can you please tell me what a SUKKAL is ... I could not find it in the dictionary.

[20:14] <iota> that's how they did it back then i guess

[20:14] <theta> Exactly how accurate were these translations?

[20:14] <bet> like heaven

[20:14] <DWROB> power struggles -- good

[20:14] <chi> The gods had humanistic flaws

[20:14] <epsilon> incest

[20:14] <DWROB> tau: Well, I suppose it's anatomically correct enough, but what's really weird about all that?

[20:14] <delta> what was the time period?

[20:14] <DWROB> yes -- all polytheistic gods do

[20:14] <DWROB> Roman, Greek, are the same

[20:15] <aleph> it just seems strange that a woman would bear more children to help the man she appeared to hate

[20:15] <tau> the way the author phrased in ... like she physically can control the sperm

[20:15] <DWROB> 4000 years ago.

[20:15] <iota> way BC

[20:15] <psi> BC

[20:15] <xi> oh ok

[20:15] <eta> two rivals giving birth

[20:15] <DWROB> This is the oldest extant literature I could find for you.

[20:15] <theta> they knew exactly how women got pregnant ... to a science

[20:15] upsilon6 ( joined #2111web.

[20:15] <tau> really? that's cool

[20:15] <DWROB> 2000 BC

[20:15] <omega> but really the gods were man made up things to represent things in there life that man lacked or wanted

[20:15] <nu> even older than Beowulf

[20:15] <nu> ?

[20:15] <rho> it was the first writings known

[20:16] <DWROB> The role of sex is unfamiliar, anyway ... what else is strange?

[20:16] <aleph> that is amazing considering it took Europeans forever to figure the process out

[20:16] <alpha> yeah, i didn't understand why she did try to help him

[20:16] <DWROB> Yes, certainly

[20:16] <bet> why were the women allowing this to go on?

[20:16] <rho> how do we know the translations are correct

[20:16] <beta> she felt guilty

[20:16] <DWROB> Beowulf is 3000 years newer

[20:16] <DWROB> No comparison

[20:16] <aleph> because it gave them power

[20:16] <mu> how the names were symbolized body parts

[20:16] <nu> dang

[20:16] <omega> most of the stories seem more to a fact of fantasy than real myth

[20:16] <iota> punishment of Enki through plants and harming his organs

[20:16] <DWROB> Um ... they liked it?

[20:16] <tau> its strange how the 9 plants were grown from semen

[20:17] <delta> I didn't understand the plant thing

[20:17] <sigma> they were doormats

[20:17] <bet> really?!

[20:17] <kappa> It was odd punishment

[20:17] <psi> me either

[20:17] <chi> The stories only feature a few gods most of the others a only mentioned, but they don't play a large role

[20:17] <aleph> me either

[20:17] <DWROB> back to strangeness -- what other strange things crop up?

[20:17] <omicron> i didn't understand how the goddess could punish Enki if he was more powerful

[20:17] <tau> the plants

[20:17] <gamma> it was an example of a power struggle between man and woman

[20:17] <upsilon6> how did the plants relate?

[20:17] <rho> the plants made him sick

[20:17] <xi> me neither

[20:17] <DWROB> yes

[20:17] <psi> with the god being so powerful

[20:17] <DWROB> They are rivals.

[20:17] <DWROB> What sort of goddess is Ninhursag?

[20:17] <psi> how could he be punished

[20:18] <mu> how can a plant make a god sick

[20:18] <theta> a motherly goddess

[20:18] <DWROB> goddess of what?

[20:18] <iota> handicapped people

[20:18] <omega> the incest

[20:18] <epsilon> the plants in reference to the children

[20:18] <rho> the mother

[20:18] <zeta> him consulting another to take another woman.

[20:18] <tau> fertility??

[20:18] <aleph> the plants wee a reflection of mother natures power .. the ultimate woman

[20:18] <bet> mother earth?

[20:18] <psi> i say fertility

[20:18] <phi> why couldn't they walk in the marshland

[20:18] <gamma> fertility

[20:18] <delta> how did they create 8 deities for the painful organs

[20:18] <beta> his great-granddaughter was the only one that questioned him in a sexual manner

[20:18] <DWROB> It's not at all clear -- you are right.

[20:18] <DWROB> a mother, yes ...

[20:18] <DWROB> If Enki is god of water, Ninhursag is goddess of ... ?

[20:18] <DWROB> RIGHT

[20:18] <rho> of the gods

[20:18] <kappa> why 8

[20:18] <iota> also powerful

[20:18] <tau> food?

[20:18] <psi> land

[20:18] <chi> the role of humans was to do the work for the gods, which implies that they are very close to humans themselves

[20:18] <mu> land

[20:18] <theta> agriculture

[20:18] <delta> land

[20:19] <DWROB> earth

[20:19] <DWROB> so there is a rivalry, but also a mutual need.

[20:19] <eta> crops, land

[20:19] <pi> shes the goddess of earth

[20:19] <mu> k

[20:19] <zeta> earth

[20:19] <epsilon> earth

[20:19] <psi> which would so a power struggle

[20:19] <DWROB> delta: go figure -- it is unknown

[20:19] <DWROB> exactly

[20:19] <DWROB> these are the gods of an agricultural society

[20:19] <lambda> the two could not function with the other one

[20:19] <phi> life

[20:19] <lambda> right?

[20:19] <alpha> I found it odd that Dilmun was a holy, pure land, yet the gods were rivals with each other

[20:19] <omega> what does it mean the semen was poured into her, how?

[20:19] <upsilon6> land

[20:19] <DWROB> water plus dirt equals crops

[20:19] <tau> by his penis

[20:19] <rho> and water

[20:20] <DWROB> Basically there is a god for every natural phenomenon

[20:20] <iota> earth

[20:20] <gamma> they competed against each other and yet needed each other

[20:20] <DWROB> and for every human attribute.

[20:20] <psi> you would think they could not function with one another

[20:20] <bet> myth

[20:20] <mu> uncertainty

[20:20] <omega> simple though

[20:20] aleph ( left irc: Quit

[20:20] <DWROB> What is the attitude of the gods toward humanity?

[20:20] aleph ( joined #2111web.

[20:20] <upsilon6> now I understand Dr. Rob

[20:20] <delta> slave like

[20:20] <rho> mistakes

[20:20] <mu> servants

[20:20] <psi> minimal

[20:20] <tau> see them as servants

[20:20] <psi> inferior

[20:20] <theta> slaves

[20:20] <kappa> servants

[20:20] <gamma> wanted personal servants

[20:20] <tau> to do the god's chores

[20:20] <mu> weak and inferior

[20:20] <lambda> slaves

[20:20] <DWROB> What is the attitude of the gods toward humanity?

[20:20] <omicron> they wanted humans to do all the work so i guess they were like slaves

[20:20] <aleph> yes the women definitely had more power

[20:21] <beta> they wanted to be lazy

[20:21] <upsilon6> slaves

[20:21] <zeta> slavery

[20:21] <phi> servants

[20:21] <DWROB> right

[20:21] <chi> but not all the gods were mentioned

[20:21] <chi> they see them as servants

[20:21] <eta> they looked over ... they were inferior, but made much use of what they provided

[20:21] <iota> slaves

[20:21] <DWROB> not loving or any such thing

[20:21] <upsilon6> humankind can do their dirty work

[20:21] <xi> servants

[20:21] <rho> little care

[20:21] <aleph> aha

[20:21] <kappa> cripples compared to gods

[20:21] <epsilon> if the humans help them out the gods will help them out

[20:21] <DWROB> indifference -- the gods have there own affairs to attend to

[20:21] <zeta> they did not want to do their own work

[20:21] <DWROB> But how do people have to act toward the gods?

[20:21] <bet> with respect

[20:21] <rho> worship

[20:21] <tau> respect

[20:21] <pi> with reverence and fear

[20:21] <kappa> praise them and worship them

[20:21] <nu> they give them gifts and help them

[20:21] <chi> they were received by humans

[20:21] <iota> crips do all the work

[20:21] <delta> reverence

[20:21] <omicron> they had no choice but to praise them

[20:21] <phi> kinda pushed them aside

[20:21] <sigma> negative

[20:21] <iota> work

[20:22] <DWROB> perhaps

[20:22] <gamma> a sense of honor

[20:22] <alpha> respectful

[20:22] <theta> they did the gods' bidding

[20:22] <sigma> pleasant

[20:22] <iota> they do as their told

[20:22] <zeta> money

[20:22] <theta> and made sacrifices

[20:22] <phi> bow to them

[20:22] <tau> the gods were their creators- u worship them

[20:22] <chi> they have to worship and respect them

[20:22] <epsilon> respectfully

[20:22] <alpha> reverent

[20:22] <eta> they had to respect what they provided for them

[20:22] <DWROB> how do human beings prosper with all these fighting, obnoxious gods to deal with?

[20:22] <psi> worship

[20:22] <psi> respect

[20:22] <DWROB> right

[20:22] <psi> they are afraid of them

[20:22] <psi> they also steal there women

[20:22] <bet> they get crops out of it

[20:22] <aleph> aha they rule through fear

[20:22] <upsilon6> respectful

[20:22] <lambda> they need them to survive

[20:22] <DWROB> to many of them

[20:22] <nu> they appease all of them

[20:22] <theta> they don't see the gods' fighting, they carry on their life as if nothing was going on "up there"

[20:22] <delta> they do what they have to do to survive

[20:22] <omicron> the gods give them just enough to keep living

[20:23] <tau> exactly; human survival

[20:23] <eta> if they do not respect a certain god, they may not receive such things like rain or food

[20:23] <DWROB> including rivals -- a tricky business

[20:23] <chi> the stories didn't give any real examples of how the humans felt

[20:23] <DWROB> There really isn't much hierarchy -- just competing factions

[20:23] <DWROB> it's all politics

[20:23] <phi> they depend on the gods to survive

[20:23] <bet> to much watering

[20:23] <omega> the gods were at times petty in there actions towards man

[20:23] <xi> respectfulness

[20:23] <rho> even then

[20:23] <DWROB> you see the same thing in Greece and Roman mythology

[20:23] <nu> cater to the important ones

[20:23] <zeta> solving problems?

[20:23] <upsilon6> yeah, they don't really know what is going on with the gods

[20:23] <rho> Egypt

[20:23] <eta> yes!

[20:23] <DWROB> Right, but they have to honor ALL of them, which is hard, because they are so contradictory

[20:23] <sigma> spooky

[20:23] <alpha> how come they don't have a hierarchy?

[20:23] <eta> Zeus's wife was very jealous of his exploits right?

[20:23] <aleph> yeah

[20:23] <kappa> all mythology has a lot of similarities

[20:23] <omega> the people were in a sense kind of lazy if you think about it

[20:23] <xi> sure do

[20:23] <epsilon> the gods give them what they need to survive

[20:23] <epsilon> yes

[20:23] <pi> how do you honor Ninhursag without pissing off Enki?

[20:23] <psi> that is tough

[20:24] <DWROB> a little god can cause you a lot of trouble as a human!

[20:24] <rho> catch 22

[20:24] <upsilon6> true

[20:24] <delta> I agree

[20:24] <mu> correct

[20:24] <tau> yep

[20:24] <omega> i don't think you can

[20:24] <nu> i guess they just went about it like the Greeks

[20:24] <gamma> they had no choice

[20:24] <epsilon> obviously

[20:24] <DWROB> This has some bearing on the role of sexuality here.

[20:24] <mu> so how do humans please every god

[20:24] <DWROB> How is this story different from something out of the Judaeo-Christian tradition?

[20:24] <nu> you win some you loose some

[20:24] <zeta> why was it that Enki made cripple people instead of people that were well and strong?

[20:24] <chi> especially if a god falls in love with you

[20:24] <psi> that seems impossible

[20:24] <tau> we only have one god

[20:24] <theta> Christians view incest as a sin

[20:24] <pi> there is only one God that rules all

[20:24] <psi> to please everyone

[20:25] <bet> it involves nature

[20:25] <xi> yea

[20:25] <DWROB> How is this story different from something out of the Judaeo-Christian tradition?

[20:25] <nu> we have one God

[20:25] <rho> one god to many gods

[20:25] <gamma> there is only one GOD

[20:25] <omicron> one god controls everything

[20:25] <delta> their morals appear different

[20:25] <bet> it is polytheistic

[20:25] <kappa> one God

[20:25] <chi> there are several gods

[20:25] <eta> there are multiple gods

[20:25] <lambda> polytheistic

[20:25] <epsilon> sexual exploitation would not be used

[20:25] <tau> we were created by one god

[20:25] <xi> polytheism

[20:25] <phi> no incest in Christianity

[20:25] <kappa> as opposed to multiple

[20:25] <epsilon> or incest

[20:25] <pi> One God to please, and love does the trick

[20:25] <theta> Christianity is also monotheistic

[20:25] <beta> a lot of the things in this story are considered sins ...

[20:25] <mu> only one god

[20:25] <iota> only one god not many

[20:25] <DWROB> pi: yes, which both simplifies and complicates matters

[20:25] <DWROB> Why are they different?

[20:25] <psi> like there are many

[20:25] <eta> christian and Judaism's god is there to serve the people as well

[20:25] <alpha> only one God in Judaeo-Christian, where as here there are many

[20:25] <omega> it depends on what culture you come from to believe in one god though

[20:25] <psi> they are over different things

[20:25] <DWROB> OK, how would you have worshiped a love goddess?

[20:25] <chi> their gods have problems

[20:26] <theta> by having lots of sex

[20:26] <delta> because they conflict with values and beliefs

[20:26] <tau> my making love?

[20:26] <psi> with love i guess

[20:26] <nu> by loving

[20:26] <iota> b/c the Sumerians use incest and polytheism

[20:26] <psi> my having children

[20:26] <pi> even when we feel we've pleased are God we've still sinned against him so its hard ever to be on his good side

[20:26] <mu> with love

[20:26] <eta> produce children maybe?

[20:26] <epsilon> poly vs monotheism

[20:26] <bet> respecting love and sex

[20:26] <phi> showing her love

[20:26] <mu> ?

[20:26] <kappa> Their polytheism beliefs have problems

[20:26] <beta> because there is only one God, therefore no one to compete with him to be jealous of

[20:26] <omicron> by trying to love everybody

[20:26] <gamma> by having sex

[20:26] <upsilon6> candy

[20:26] <rho> more writings in Jud-Christ

[20:26] <kappa> Gods were fighting

[20:26] <eta> being kind?

[20:26] <zeta> it speaks of lesser gods in the bible ... but there is one ultimate being running it all

[20:26] <upsilon6> it makes you think of valentines day

[20:26] <chi> give her stuff

[20:26] <delta> showing respect and affection

[20:26] <DWROB> well, yes -- temple prostitution, rituals involving sex. You see that still even in the Bible -- the neighbors of the Hebrews were polytheists exactly like the Sumerians

[20:26] <epsilon> being in love

[20:27] <psi> sex

[20:27] <xi> having many children and women

[20:27] <aleph> a form of power

[20:27] <beta> it is a commandment to worship no other idols (or other gods)

[20:27] <delta> you are right DWROB because their was a lot of sins in the bible

[20:27] <DWROB> being in love probably won't cut it ...

[20:27] <omega> they were at times human in fault themselves

[20:27] <rho> The Jud-Christ era has survived

[20:27] <DWROB> How does this differ from Judaeo-Christianity, then?

[20:27] <DWROB> Where did the celebration of sex go, and why?

[20:27] <delta> maybe no difference

[20:27] <xi> having lots of sex

[20:27] <rho> the belief left the people

[20:27] <gamma> there was no physical act of sex

[20:27] <epsilon> incest

[20:27] <DWROB> theirs a difference, I think

[20:28] <phi> making babies

[20:28] <iota> polytheism

[20:28] <eta> you must love only one person in Christianity

[20:28] <tau> i guess when you break it down ... you are still worshiping something

[20:28] <psi> celebration of sex

[20:28] <theta> well, the neighbors of the Hebrews or whatever they're considered also weren't worshiped

[20:28] <pi> sins and pleasures are defined differently by different gods

[20:28] <nu> an organized church

[20:28] <beta> sex is supposed to be only for marriage

[20:28] <upsilon6> sex is not allowed to be a celebration anymore

[20:28] <omicron> maybe the people were made to believe against it by another god

[20:28] <DWROB> You weren't shocked by this stuff?

[20:28] <delta> maybe the way they did things their process

[20:28] <theta> in Judaeo-Christianity, the god says NOT to have sex like they do

[20:28] <beta> yes

[20:28] <lambda> There is no "Celebration of Sex" in Christianity

[20:28] <chi> you have to please your gods in these myths, in Christianity you don't have to worry about offending another god

[20:28] <xi> it went into being b/t two married ppl ... because sex is powerful

[20:28] <kappa> yes it was shocking

[20:28] <epsilon> ya!

[20:28] <aleph> some of it was

[20:28] <phi> not really

[20:28] <omega> but who is to say that Christianity is the one right religion though

[20:28] <bet> It was a little more extreme

[20:28] <tau> yes

[20:28] <DWROB> different gods, different sins -- exactly

[20:28] <zeta> no

[20:28] <zeta> sex is natural

[20:28] <omicron> it was more than shocking to me

[20:28] <gamma> yes

[20:28] <DWROB> and with one god, a hierarchy has to be imposed

[20:28] <mu> a lot of gods

[20:28] <beta> sometimes graphic and vulgar

[20:29] <theta> and the Judaeo-Christian god didn't impregnate people HIMSELF

[20:29] <rho> Sumer did not survive

[20:29] <iota> of course

[20:29] <bet> one law to follow

[20:29] <eta> but it was typical back then. many ancient leaders would impregnate their own daughters

[20:29] <delta> that is some of what goes on in life maybe not creating umuls though

[20:29] <tau> keep the blood line pure

[20:29] <DWROB> sexuality loses out, becomes something that has to be controlled.

[20:29] <DWROB> The Sumerians would have thought this a very odd notion

[20:29] <DWROB> rho: let's see where we are in 4000 years!

[20:29] <upsilon6> true

[20:29] <rho> you think

[20:29] <delta> once again I agree

[20:29] <lambda> its all perspective; we think what they did was strange

[20:29] <kappa> yeah

[20:30] <tau> right

[20:30] <beta> very

[20:30] <DWROB> questions so far?

[20:30] <pi> are ways are already faltering, if any one truly believes them anymore anyway

[20:30] <DWROB> I bring all this up ...

[20:30] <epsilon> yep

[20:30] <mu> in that era it might of been accepted

[20:30] <aleph> but they would think what we do is strange

[20:30] <sigma> incest does not keep the blood lines pure

[20:30] <omicron> it is hard to say because people back then though nothing like we do today

[20:30] <DWROB> because it figures in Gilgamesh next week

[20:30] <aleph> they thought so

[20:30] <DWROB> and in the biblical readings.

[20:30] <chi> sex was probably as important as water to the Sumerians

[20:30] <eta> ohhh

[20:30] <DWROB> Remember, the old testament is a story of the rivalry of polytheism and monotheism

[20:30] <omega> to keep that blood line kings and queens of old day did it

[20:30] <DWROB> Told by one side only

[20:31] <pi> DWROB - what figures?

[20:31] <DWROB> Here we are getting the other side

[20:31] <upsilon6> ok

[20:31] <theta> do you keep logs of this chat, or should we do that on our own?

[20:31] <iota> no sir

[20:31] <gamma> that makes sense

[20:31] <rho> Jud-Christ has adapted over time

[20:31] <delta> so how are we to know what to believe

[20:31] <phi> alright cumulative readings

[20:31] <psi> that makes sense

[20:31] <kappa> its nice to here the other side I suppose

[20:31] <bet> more informative less biased

[20:31] <zeta> eye for and eye!!!!

[20:31] <DWROB> It crops up -- the same ideas

[20:31] <DWROB> As you will see

[20:31] <chi> i never thought of it like that

[20:31] <DWROB> Also, stories familiar from the bible show up in Gilgamesh, but with a different meaning completely

[20:32] <kappa> You always hear there are two sides to every story now you here it

[20:32] <tau> i bet they are more similar then we think

[20:32] <DWROB> but that's for next week.

[20:32] <pi> does Gilgamesh persuasively oppose monotheism

[20:32] <theta> well, that's what's weird about these whole things ... the story of Noah's arc crops up in many different places as well, just under different names and various means

[20:32] <chi> like the sole survivor of the flood

[20:32] <DWROB> Let's look at some passages and discuss them now

[20:32] <DWROB> hold on a minute ...

[20:32] <omega> like the Kama sutra

[20:32] <psi> ok

[20:32] <xi> oh ok

[20:32] <DWROB> Gilgamesh comes before monotheism -- this is older

[20:33] <zeta> this may give us all a better understanding

[20:33] <DWROB> much older

[20:33] <DWROB> The people who wrote the bible were drawing in part on these myths and tales as sources.

[20:33] <pi> when did Judaism begin?

[20:33] <DWROB> Look at this and see if it looks familiar ...

[20:33] <DWROB> Holy the city ... . The land Dilmun is holy.

[20:33] <DWROB> Sumer is holy ... . The land Dilmun is holy.

[20:33] <DWROB> The land Dilmun is holy, the land Dilmun is pure,

[20:33] <DWROB> the land Dilmun is pure, the land Dilmun is bright.

[20:33] <DWROB> After she lay in Dilmun with the one who is alone,

[20:33] <DWROB> the place -- after Enki had slept with his wife --

[20:33] <DWROB> that place is pure, that place is bright.

[20:33] <omega> what is the origin of Gilgamesh

[20:33] <DWROB> After she lay in Dilmun with the one who is alone,

[20:33] <DWROB> the place-after Enki had slept with Ninsikila --

[20:33] <DWROB> that place is pure, that place is bright.

[20:33] <nu> yeah this story bears a striking resemblance to genesis

[20:33] <theta> it represents heaven

[20:34] <kappa> How is it pure and bright?

[20:34] <DWROB> Very formulaic, repetitive, but what does it describe?

[20:34] <psi> seems like heaven

[20:34] <bet> creation

[20:34] <mu> heaven

[20:34] <nu> Eden

[20:34] <eta> exactly.. didn't notice that

[20:34] <DWROB> circa 1200 BC

[20:34] <delta> the beginning again

[20:34] <tau> eve?

[20:34] <psi> the origin

[20:34] <gamma> any perfect place

[20:34] <pi> Eden

[20:34] <phi> garden of Eden

[20:34] <tau> oops, i mean the garden of Eden?

[20:34] <DWROB> not heaven ...

[20:34] <DWROB> an earthly paradise

[20:34] lambda (~lambda@ left irc: Quit

[20:34] <omega> or nirvana

[20:34] <iota> the beauty of the natural land

[20:34] <rho> before heaven and earth were separated

[20:34] <upsilon6> heaven

[20:34] <bet> Eden

[20:34] <mu> Eden

[20:34] aleph ( left irc: Quit

[20:34] <omicron> it describes a place with no flaws just like heaven

[20:34] <alpha> How holy the place is

[20:34] <DWROB> like Eden

[20:34] <DWROB> right

[20:34] <chi> the holy land

[20:34] <kappa> Eden

[20:35] <DWROB> now this ...

[20:35] <DWROB>

[20:35] Last message repeated 5 time(s).

[20:35] <DWROB> Utu, standing in heaven ... .

[20:35] <DWROB> from the mouth that pours out the earth's water

[20:35] Channel flood from DWROB -- kicking

[20:35] <DWROB> he brought her sweet water from the earth.

[20:35] DWROB kicked from #2111web by Socrates: flood

[20:35] <epsilon> Eden, the place is always holy

[20:35] <pi> did dr robinson get kicked off?

[20:35] <xi> Jerusalem

[20:35] <zeta> it sound like in the beginning of the bible

[20:35] <nu> yeah

[20:35] <eta> oh no!

[20:35] <tau> a creation

[20:35] <psi> hey class is over

[20:35] <omega> yeah

[20:35] <DWROB_> Holy crap -- I got kicked by my own robot!

[20:35] <phi> hahahaa

[20:35] DWROB ( joined #2111web.

[20:35] <DWROB> What's happening?

[20:35] <upsilon6> I think so

[20:35] <epsilon> i font know what do we do

[20:35] <mu> lol

[20:35] <theta> haha

[20:36] <delta> hahaha

[20:36] <pi> yeah he told us

[20:36] <psi> we can go watch lost now

[20:36] <DWROB_> Some fine tuning left to do ...

[20:36] <nu> robots are the devil

[20:36] <pi> haha

[20:36] <DWROB_> Anyway, what's happening in the passage?

[20:36] <psi> what passage

[20:36] <beta> so we aren't the only ones with technical difficulties ...

[20:36] qof (~qof@ joined #2111web.

[20:36] <tau> giving the land water

[20:36] <omega> lol

[20:36] <bet> the sun was created and earth and water

[20:36] <psi> i think you need to re enter the passage

[20:36] <DWROB_> which means life, essentially, or the prerequisite for life.

[20:36] <DWROB_> And where is the water coming from?

[20:36] <pi> Enki

[20:36] <rho> the water is given life to the earth

[20:37] <tau> Enki

[20:37] <gamma> Enki

[20:37] <iota> speaking of the lands beauty

[20:37] <kappa> gods

[20:37] <theta> the mouth

[20:37] <omicron> Enki the god of water

[20:37] <delta> Enki

[20:37] <nu> the heavens

[20:37] <alpha> creating the water

[20:37] <bet> the sky

[20:37] <qof> Enki

[20:37] <chi> god is bestowing a gift

[20:37] <mu> Enki

[20:37] <DWROB_> Exactly

[20:37] <alpha> Yep

[20:37] <nu> where the gods are

[20:37] <rho> the rivers

[20:37] <epsilon> the heavens

[20:37] <kappa> Enki in particular

[20:37] <sigma> Enki

[20:37] <phi> heaven

[20:37] <omega> God?

[20:37] <upsilon6> the gods

[20:37] <zeta> the separation of land and water

[20:37] <DWROB_> Now here's the next phase of this creation story ...

[20:37] <alpha> mouth

[20:37] <eta> raining ... providing the desert with water for the first time? giving life??

[20:38] <DWROB> Enki, the cunning one, in front of Nintu, mother of the land,

[20:38] <eta> oh oops ... that was late

[20:38] <DWROB> has his phallus fill the ditches full with semen,

[20:38] <DWROB> has his phallus glut the reeds with an overflow of sperm,

[20:38] <DWROB> has his phallus tear away the noble cloth that covers the lap.

[20:38] <DWROB> He spoke out: "No one walks in the marshland."

[20:38] <psi> he is giving

[20:38] <DWROB> Enki said: "No one walks in the marshland."

[20:38] upsilon6 ( left irc: Quit

[20:38] <DWROB> He swore by the life of An.

[20:38] <phi> so they have water, why not have sex

[20:38] <DWROB>

[20:38] Last message repeated 1 time(s).

[20:38] <DWROB> What's this all about?

[20:38] <bet> creation of man

[20:38] <pi> Enki watering the land

[20:38] <alpha> "don't eat the fruit off the tree"

[20:38] <gamma> creation of man

[20:38] <eta> yes

[20:38] <DWROB> it is symbolic sex, sorry

[20:38] <tau> he wants to have sex with Nintu

[20:38] <omicron> maybe they are saying he is making too much love

[20:38] <kappa> creation

[20:38] <alpha> the forbidden

[20:38] <eta> the fruit..

[20:38] <DWROB> what's happening?

[20:38] <rho> no fruit

[20:38] <DWROB_> Creation of what?

[20:38] <phi> font eat the apples on the tree

[20:39] <psi> creation of men

[20:39] <theta> he's warning the humans not to do something

[20:39] <delta> eating the forbidden fruit

[20:39] <bet> sin

[20:39] <eta> knowledge

[20:39] <theta> sin

[20:39] <mu> life

[20:39] <tau> yes, sin

[20:39] <sigma> fertilizing the land

[20:39] <kappa> man

[20:39] <DWROB_> right , of life generally

[20:39] <rho> evil

[20:39] <psi> sex

[20:39] <pi> Enki is filling the land with water he is creating the earth

[20:39] <chi> he is fertilizing the land

[20:39] <omega> then wheres the serpent?

[20:39] <iota> creation of life

[20:39] <beta> yea, the tree of knowledge

[20:39] <phi> sin

[20:39] <DWROB_> there is a continuity -- connected by Enki -- sea, water, semen, all the same

[20:39] <epsilon> creation of man or of sins

[20:39] upsilon ( joined #2111web.

[20:39] <pi> the later is harder to clean up

[20:39] <rho> liquid

[20:39] <zeta> Creation of plants

[20:40] <omega> both

[20:40] <DWROB_> This kind of symbolism would be repressed in later traditions, but here there is a different attitude about it -- it's godly, connected with life

[20:40] <chi> the world

[20:40] <rho> ok

[20:40] <eta> ahhhh so when he filled the rivers with semen, was that what we see as water?

[20:40] <psi> life

[20:40] <tau> semen?

[20:40] <pi> this was before we made sex and everything to do with it evil

[20:40] <eta> something that provides life..

[20:40] <alpha> I'm confused

[20:40] <psi> she fertilized the world

[20:40] <eta> maybe not

[20:40] <tau> ah, ok

[20:40] <psi> oops he

[20:41] <tau> good point pi

[20:41] <DWROB_> Polytheistic religions regard sex as a fact equal with other facts; it's not something quite as threatening to the social order.

[20:41] <mu> so his semen is essential to life?

[20:41] <pi> The writer uses Enki's semen metaphorically as the water of life that fills the earth

[20:41] <DWROB_> Right.

[20:41] <zeta> semen does give life

[20:41] <DWROB_> The bible uses the same water imagery but doesn't usually go this far.

[20:41] <psi> semen is life

[20:41] <delta> so it is seen as procreation more than immoral

[20:41] <kappa> semen leads to life

[20:41] <tau> yes it does

[20:41] <DWROB_> OK ...

[20:41] <omicron> semen gives life and water maintains

[20:41] <beta> but why use semen as an analogy to water?

[20:41] <pi> i might have before the Catholics edited it

[20:41] <rho> less imagery

[20:41] <tau> both give life

[20:41] <psi> there is life in water

[20:41] <omicron> they both have to do with life

[20:41] <omega> that it does so why is it sin to have sex

[20:41] <gamma> so we are back to two interpretations

[20:41] <DWROB_> Because semen is like living water, giving rise to new life literally

[20:42] <alpha> just like water was life to the people

[20:42] <epsilon> because if gives life

[20:42] <DWROB_> That's how it was viewed.

[20:42] <mu> ok

[20:42] <bet> something good

[20:42] <beta> I'll buy that ...

[20:42] <kappa> They were viewed as equals?

[20:42] <zeta> ok

[20:42] <DWROB_> You see a lot of this in Egyptian mythology too -- very wacky stuff I won't go into !

[20:42] <omega> water can kill too

[20:42] <delta> without water you couldn't survive w/o semen you wouldn't be here

[20:42] <psi> please font

[20:42] <rho> yes

[20:42] <psi> the easier the better

[20:42] <DWROB_> Let's look at the other myth for a moment

[20:42] <DWROB_> I didn't get to it with the class last night

[20:43] <phi> but god uses water to kill off everything in the bible with Noah

[20:43] <omega> thank you

[20:43] <DWROB_> What do you make of this "umul" story?

[20:43] <eta> the water god has always been the one people wanted to please

[20:43] <delta> that was mean

[20:43] <tau> i thought it was very interesting ... a good explanation

[20:43] <rho> cleaning house

[20:43] <gamma> it shows mankind's imperfection

[20:43] <DWROB_> seems pretty mean!

[20:43] <pi> the writer used it to explain handicapped people and also to prove that Enki was better then Ninhursag

[20:43] <nu> basically like Adam and eve

[20:43] <DWROB_> OK, so what is the explanatory function of the myth?

[20:43] <omega> see it does kill

[20:43] <zeta> strange

[20:43] <DWROB_> yes

[20:43] <omicron> it showed that Enki was more powerful

[20:43] <psi> shows imperfection

[20:43] <iota> sad, b/c of all the cripples people doing hard work

[20:43] <zeta> why make a man like that

[20:44] <DWROB_> it does show his power

[20:44] <tau> to explain how cripples came

[20:44] <delta> showing how powerful Enki was

[20:44] <rho> wiped away sin

[20:44] <bet> unfair

[20:44] <tau> and shows his power

[20:44] <gamma> everyone has a society created role

[20:44] <epsilon> it was really terrible what he did to umul, was it just for bread?

[20:44] <psi> shows power

[20:44] <kappa> shows Enki as powerful and thoughtful

[20:44] qof (~qof@ left irc: Quit

[20:44] <DWROB_> gamma: good

[20:44] <theta> it represented unconditional love

[20:44] <zeta> to gain more power over Nin.

[20:44] <DWROB_> that too, true enough

[20:44] <gamma> thank you

[20:44] <mu> power

[20:44] <phi> everyone has a purpose

[20:44] <DWROB_> yes

[20:44] <omega> a cleansing

[20:44] <chi> I didn't understand the jobs he gave to her disabled humans

[20:44] <chi> to show that there is still a use for people with problems

[20:44] <DWROB_> But to some extent, that seems like window dressing ...

[20:44] <bet> it was their given duty

[20:45] <DWROB_> The story's core is about the rivalry of the two gods

[20:45] <epsilon> shows his powerfulness

[20:45] <DWROB_> and that's hard to attach a religious meaning to

[20:45] <tau> right ... seemed almost sexist

[20:45] <rho> and the humans get in the way

[20:45] <sigma> there is something that everyone can do to fulfill life

[20:45] <eta> he wanted to strike fear

[20:45] <omicron> it said they were drunk so maybe they got carried away

[20:45] <delta> he seemed to be inferior yet at the end he was humbling himself

[20:45] <zeta> still, why make a man that serves little purpose.

[20:45] <pi> his ability to bless them and give them purpose and Ninhursag's inability to do so proved that he was a more powerful god with purposes for all of his subjects

[20:45] <beta> it shows that even with imperfections there is still a role for the humans to play

[20:45] <alpha> in the end, he got what he wanted

[20:45] <phi> so she is tossing all her crap at him and he is making use of it

[20:45] <DWROB_> What you often see (in the Bible too) is a folktale, just a story, basically, that gets rewritten to serve a specific purpose.

[20:45] <kappa> humans can still have a role even with their imperfections

[20:46] Anon2331 (~Anon2331@ joined #2111web.

[20:46] <omega> too much play

[20:46] <bet> like a fable

[20:46] <DWROB_> So here is looks like the story of how Enki beat up on Ninmah ...

[20:46] <upsilon> I can't pinpoint the religious meaning

[20:46] <DWROB_> but an ethical veneer has been added.

[20:46] <beta> to teach a lesson, like a parable?

[20:46] <rho> it stared some where

[20:46] <epsilon> ya

[20:46] <omicron> it basically told Ninmah that Enki was better than her

[20:46] <tau> yep

[20:46] <DWROB_> It's being used that way, but you can still see the old story underneath, originally just an entertainment

[20:46] <delta> yea i think so

[20:46] <omicron> and put here in her place

[20:46] <zeta> people

[20:46] <rho> yes

[20:47] <bet> a lesson is taught

[20:47] <mu> she was "inferior" to him

[20:47] <tau> yes, for entertainment

[20:47] <zeta> yes

[20:47] <psi> entertainment

[20:47] <DWROB_> The ethical conclusion may have been clearer but the end is missing

[20:47] <chi> everyone loves a good fight

[20:47] <omicron> why is it missing?

[20:47] <DWROB_> Let's look at the last excerpt.

[20:47] <eta> well, doesn't it serve a purpose? like a fable?

[20:47] <gamma> there has always been a power struggle

[20:47] <rho> so there are many endings

[20:47] <DWROB_> I see if I get kicked again ...

[20:47] <chi> because it's old

[20:47] <epsilon> ya the is frustrating

[20:47] <psi> power struggles will always exist

[20:48] <omega> or was it taken out?

[20:48] <zeta> But why were they fighting

[20:48] <tau> especially between men and women

[20:48] <DWROB> Once, then, there was no snake,

[20:48] <DWROB> there was no

[20:48] <DWROB> scorpion,

[20:48] <DWROB> there was no hyena,

[20:48] <pi> they were fighting for power

[20:48] <DWROB> there was no lion,

[20:48] <DWROB> there was no

[20:48] <DWROB> wild dog,

[20:48] <DWROB> no wolf,

[20:48] <DWROB> there was no fear,

[20:48] xxxx (~xxxx@ joined #2111web.

[20:48] <sigma> and scares me

[20:48] <DWROB> no terror:

[20:48] <eta> all gods are jealous ... . even our current gods

[20:48] <DWROB> human had

[20:48] <DWROB> no rival.

[20:48] <DWROB> Once, then,

[20:48] <DWROB> the lands Shubur-Hamazi,

[20:48] <DWROB> polyglot Sumer,

[20:48] <DWROB> that land great with

[20:48] <omicron> it is saying the world used to be perfect but now it isn't

[20:48] <DWROB> the me of overlordship,

[20:48] <DWROB> Uri,

[20:48] <DWROB> the land with everything just

[20:48] <DWROB> so,

[20:48] <DWROB> the land Martu,

[20:48] <DWROB> resting securely,

[20:49] <DWROB> we've got another Eden-type myth, right?

[20:49] <DWROB> stay on topic

[20:49] <nu> yep

[20:49] <mu> yes

[20:49] <psi> yes

[20:49] <kappa> yes

[20:49] <tau> yes

[20:49] <DWROB> Now watch this ...

[20:49] <Anon2331> yes

[20:49] <rho> peace on earth

[20:49] <beta> yeah

[20:49] <mu> pure

[20:49] <bet> peaceful

[20:49] <delta> yes

[20:49] <psi> maybe it is not a perfect world

[20:49] <DWROB>

[20:49] Last message repeated 2 time(s).

[20:49] <DWROB> the whole world --

[20:49] <mu> no fighting

[20:49] <DWROB> the people as one --

[20:49] <zeta> the land was peaceful ... but not really.

[20:49] <DWROB> to Enlil in one tongue gave voice.

[20:49] <DWROB> Then did the contender -- the en

[20:49] <DWROB> the contender -- the master

[20:49] <epsilon> ya

[20:49] <DWROB> the contender -- the king

[20:49] <chi> yes

[20:49] <DWROB> Enki, the contender -- the en

[20:49] <DWROB> the contender -- the master

[20:49] <upsilon> yes, it is another Eden myth

[20:49] <DWROB> the contender -- the king

[20:49] <DWROB> the contender -- the en

[20:49] <alpha> yeah

[20:49] <DWROB> the contender -- the master

[20:49] <DWROB> the contender -- the king

[20:49] <DWROB> Enki, en of hegal,

[20:49] <DWROB> the one with the unfailing words,

[20:49] <psi> all powerful has its weakness

[20:50] <DWROB> en of cunning,

[20:50] <DWROB> the shrewd one of the land,

[20:50] <DWROB> sage of the gods,

[20:50] <DWROB> gifted in thinking,

[20:50] <DWROB> the en of Eridu,

[20:50] <kappa> there is always a contender

[20:50] <DWROB> change the speech of their mouths,

[20:50] <psi> without fear, it cannot be perfect

[20:50] <DWROB> he having set up contention in it,

[20:50] <rho> an hierarchy

[20:50] <DWROB> in the human speech that had been one.

[20:50] <DWROB>

[20:50] Last message repeated 1 time(s).

[20:50] <DWROB> Remind you of anything?

[20:50] <tau> explains the different languages

[20:50] <DWROB> used to be

[20:50] <DWROB> And what happens!

[20:50] <psi> Star Trek

[20:50] <upsilon> he is not as powerful as he seems

[20:50] <bet> one god Christianity

[20:50] <tau> the tower that reaches heaven in the bible

[20:50] <beta> can you say "self-involved"?

[20:50] <DWROB> What does Enki do?

[20:50] <rho> they are split up

[20:50] <omicron> it is leaning more toward one god

[20:51] <bet> like babble

[20:51] <psi> one god would take over

[20:51] <zeta> they needed Babylon

[20:51] <kappa> contend with everyone

[20:51] <theta> what is en/

[20:51] <omicron> he is proclaiming himself the al-mighty

[20:51] <mu> one god would take control

[20:51] <iota> takes advantage

[20:51] <DWROB> Yes, it's a myth explaining the origin of languages.

[20:51] <DWROB> sound familiar?

[20:51] <DWROB> come on folks!

[20:51] <DWROB> babel, but yes

[20:51] <delta> I hear monotheism

[20:51] <bet> the tower of babble

[20:51] <zeta> BABYLON

[20:51] <beta> me too

[20:51] <tau> the bible has one involving a tower reaching heaven

[20:51] <epsilon> conversion to monotheism

[20:51] <pi> not Babylon Babel

[20:51] <DWROB> The Tower of Babel in Genesis.

[20:51] <theta> YEAH, THE TOWER OF BABYLON

[20:51] <upsilon> he gives up

[20:51] <DWROB> The languages are split so as to weaken and confuse mankind

[20:51] <zeta> confusion

[20:51] <phi> babel

[20:51] <DWROB> Babylon

[20:51] <mu> ok

[20:51] <eta> taking complete control.

[20:52] <gamma> with confusion comes division

[20:52] <chi> he isn't the perfect god he is made out to be

[20:52] <DWROB> Yes, the stories are the same, but different in important ways.

[20:52] <mu> different languages'

[20:52] <omega> why do this

[20:52] <delta> is it possible the stories we read from different religions were derived from these clay tablets

[20:52] <sigma> that makes sense

[20:52] <Anon2331> babbling, Babylon; come from the same word

[20:52] <rho> I think some details get lost in translation

[20:52] <gamma> and the separation of man

[20:52] <epsilon> the many languages will only divide people more

[20:52] <mu> different cultures

[20:52] <omega> ohh

[20:52] <DWROB> Anybody remember why the tower provokes the Hebrew god?

[20:52] <nu> there differences are probably no more than cultural differences


[20:52] <theta> sorry about the caps

[20:52] <DWROB> It's more than probable

[20:52] <zeta> What ways

[20:52] <psi> many ways

[20:52] <bet> because they were trying to reach the heavens

[20:53] <nu> because it was worshiped

[20:53] <DWROB> (as you will see in Gilgamesh)

[20:53] <rho> true

[20:53] <pi> because they were trying to be as great as him

[20:53] <zeta> they was going to build it to the gods

[20:53] <eta> because he is a jealous god. he wants control

[20:53] <DWROB> OK I HERE YOU!

[20:53] <DWROB> hear

[20:53] <DWROB> yes

[20:53] <beta> no the heaven, the perfect place, like the garden of Eden

[20:53] <kappa> So these "myths" are more like a universal truth

[20:53] <zeta> or to reach the heavens

[20:53] <DWROB> and why is that bad?

[20:53] <kappa> just told different points of view

[20:53] <tau> is it?

[20:53] <DWROB> yes, yes

[20:53] <DWROB> Why is it happening in the Sumerian version, though?

[20:53] <bet> it is saying they are almost as good as god

[20:54] <phi> they praise the tower more than the god

[20:54] <DWROB> kappa: that is not my claim

[20:54] <tau> in revenge to Enki?

[20:54] <psi> or better then god

[20:54] <bet> disrespect

[20:54] <theta> because the people wanted to be their own god

[20:54] <eta> because he did not want people who were inferior to become his equal

[20:54] <chi> because to be like god is to be god

[20:54] <theta> they wanted to contend with Enki

[20:54] <iota> they were polytheistic

[20:54] <nu> they were building a stair way to heaven

[20:54] <omicron> the gods always wanted something bigger

[20:54] <delta> because they began this

[20:54] <epsilon> because they are only greedy

[20:54] <DWROB> This story occurs in a longer tale about a war; it is just a minor episode in a contest between two groups of god and people

[20:54] <DWROB> It doesn't really have a lesson attached to it

[20:54] <beta> he did not want anymore competition

[20:54] <zeta> it is being told by another person

[20:54] <DWROB> in the bible they were

[20:55] <bet> have more fear and reverence

[20:55] <kappa> ok

[20:55] <DWROB> OK, are there questions?????

[20:55] <psi> when can we take the evaluation

[20:55] <DWROB> There must be questions

[20:55] <psi> survey

[20:55] <zeta> so this is a contradiction to the BIBLE

[20:55] <psi> and when is the first quiz due

[20:55] <omicron> when is the first quiz

[20:55] <DWROB> OK, good, the survey.

[20:56] <delta> I didn't find survey

[20:56] <omega> about the class or this chat?

[20:56] <bet> ?

[20:56] <DWROB> The survey is not ready yet. I hope to open it tomorrow around noon

[20:56] <DWROB> I will send out instructions.

[20:56] <zeta> Or just the other side of the story

[20:56] <alpha> Nope

[20:56] <alpha> I'm just trying to take it all in

[20:56] <bet> good

[20:56] <sigma> does everyone have to comment on everything you say?

[20:56] <psi> when is the first quiz due?

[20:56] <zeta> What survey

[20:56] <DWROB> First quiz I will open tomorrow and it's due Tuesday, I believe

[20:56] <omega> on the homepage

[20:56] <zeta> thanks

[20:56] <psi> ok

[20:56] <bet> always on Tues.?

[20:56] <DWROB> of course you get to retake it if you meet the initial deadline

[20:57] <delta> okay that's fine

[20:57] <chi> When is our 1st quiz due?

[20:57] <pi> and it's about Gilgamesh?

[20:57] <psi> is class over like can we go to the bar now?

[20:57] <DWROB> mentioned in the syllabus

[20:57] <mu> k

[20:57] <phi> i need to brush up on my historical vocabulary

[20:57] <DWROB> you'll get a message tomorrow

[20:57] <rho> what is your office number and hours?

[20:57] <DWROB> You have to be checking the forum and checking your GSU email every day

[20:57] <kappa> alright

[20:57] <delta> okay

[20:57] <gamma> ok

[20:57] <mu> k

[20:57] <theta> sounds good

[20:57] <Anon2331> ok

[20:57] <DWROB> psi: that's above my pay grade to decide, but we are done, yes

[20:58] <phi> excellent

[20:58] <DWROB> I will post office hours on the forum

[20:58] <DWROB> they are virtual -- in a chat room

[20:58] <iota> can we go since everyone is asking the same questions over and over

[20:58] <theta> dr rob, are you logging this chat or should we do that on our own?

[20:58] <kappa> alright

[20:58] <xi> ok

[20:58] <DWROB> I don't keep physical office hours for on-line classes

[20:58] <theta> I'd like to keep it for notes

[20:58] <bet> bye

[20:58] bet (~bet@ left irc: Quit

[20:58] <zeta> is there more to this story?

[20:58] <omega> Question?

[20:58] <omega> will the grades be posted bu email as well as on the homepage?

[20:58] <delta> how can we keep these notes

[20:58] <DWROB> though sometimes I can be caught in my office

[20:58] <DWROB> don't count on it!

[20:58] Anon2331 (~Anon2331@ left irc: Quit

[20:58] <chi> So we will never be able to meet with you face to face?

[20:58] <upsilon> I thought the quizzes were due by 5pm the day of the chat ... .in this case Wednesday

[20:58] <DWROB> By the way ...

[20:58] <DWROB> This chat is logged and you can view the transcript

[20:59] <theta> awesome

[20:59] <DWROB> very useful for studying

[20:59] mu (~mu@ left irc: Quit

[20:59] phi ( left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer

[20:59] <delta> I agree

[20:59] <DWROB> upsilon: OK, whatever I put in the syllabus

[20:59] kappa (~kappa@ left irc: Quit

[20:59] gamma ( left irc: Quit

[20:59] <DWROB> chi: I keep a few hours on campus and will post them, but that's mainly for another class

[20:59] <zeta> It is interesting now that someone has explained it a little better.

[21:00] <upsilon> I thought the quizzes were due by 5pm the day of the chat ... .in this case Wednesday

[21:00] <xi> that's great

[21:00] <xi> great

[21:00] <DWROB> I am less exciting to look at than you may suppose

[21:00] sigma ( left irc: Quit

[21:00] iota ( left irc: Quit

[21:00] epsilon ( left irc: Quit

[21:00] <DWROB> zeta: that's good to hear

[21:00] <theta> yeah, interesting class. Talk to you next week!

[21:00] theta (w33z@ left irc: Quit: ##07—#14I#07-#15n#07-#15v#07-#00i#07-#00s#07-#15i#07-#15o#07-#14n#07—# 2.0 Build 3515

[21:00] <tau> goodbye Dr

[21:00] <DWROB> this is very old, very foreign

[21:00] <DWROB> roll with it!

[21:00] tau (~tau@ left irc: Quit

[21:00] <delta> see ya dr. rob

[21:00] <DWROB> Good night!

[21:00] <omega> do we still need to come by and see you physically in the newton building?

[21:00] delta (April@ left #2111web.

[21:01] <omicron> see ya next week

[21:01] <zeta> is this all or is there more.

[21:01] nu (supermanj@ left #2111web.

[21:01] <omega> out

[21:01] <upsilon> dr. rob I thought the quizzes were due by 5pm the day of the chat ... .in this case Wednesday

[21:01] <eta> ok ... so far what assignments do we have? in case i am missing something

[21:01] omega ( left irc: Quit

[21:01] chi (~chi@ left irc: Quit

[21:01] <alpha> We can retake the quizzes you said?

[21:01] <alpha> Bye!

[21:01] xxxx (~xxxx@ left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer

[21:01] omicron ( left irc: Quit

[21:02] psi ( left irc: Quit

[21:02] <eta> the quiz tomorrow, the knowledge survey, which said i couldn't view and anything else?

[21:02] <beta> are the quizzes timed?

[21:02] <upsilon> I thought the quizzes were due by 5pm the day of the chat ... .in this case Wednesday

[21:02] <xi> Goodnight

[21:02] <pi> later d - rob

[21:02] pi ( left irc: Quit

[21:02] <DWROB> quizzes are open

[21:02] <DWROB> but there is the deadline

[21:02] <upsilon> ok, thanks

[21:02] xi ( left irc: Quit

[21:02] <DWROB> open = untimed

[21:03] <eta> for future reference, are the written essays timed?

[21:03] <DWROB> !

[21:03] <upsilon> thanks dr. rob

[21:03] <DWROB> There are no written essays

[21:03] <zeta> and does it have to be spelled correctly?

[21:03] <eta> oh

[21:03] <DWROB> you mean the exams?

[21:03] <eta> hmm i thought i read that somewhere

[21:04] <eta> that's what i meant

[21:04] <eta> yes sir the written exams

[21:04] <zeta> good

[21:04] <DWROB> does what

[21:04] zeta ( left #2111web.

[21:04] <eta> are the written exams timed?

[21:04] <DWROB> They need to be completed withing like 48 hours; I guess that's times

[21:04] <DWROB> timed

[21:04] <DWROB> It's all open book, so to speak

[21:04] <eta> well that's very fair

[21:04] <beta> i agree

[21:05] <rho> I need to get you to sign a form from the resource center for the learning disable

[21:05] <DWROB> This sometimes inspires people to commit plagiarism or cheat otherwise ...

[21:05] <DWROB> Which is a very, very bad idea

[21:05] <alpha> and we can retake the quizzes?

[21:05] <alpha> how many times?

[21:05] <eta> yeah.. the reason i was asking this is that i too have forms to be signed

[21:05] <DWROB> OK, e-mail me and we will set up an appointment

[21:05] <eta> but if everything is untimed, i may not have a problem

[21:05] <DWROB> about three, generally

[21:05] <rho> thank you

[21:05] upsilon ( left irc: Quit

[21:05] <DWROB> three times

[21:05] <DWROB> then I lock them

[21:06] <DWROB> enough being enough

[21:06] <DWROB> right